Yards after catch anomaly

[quinnearlysghost88]

We all watch other teams play aside from the Bills. We’re able to see teams hit WRs in stride and make big plays. 
 

meanwhile our big plays are stationary catches. 20 yard strikes to a Knox on his knees or a zone sitting Diggs who rolls for another yard. 
 

Diggs was ranked 26th in YAC last year. Dont get me wrong, Josh is amazing at hitting stationary targets. But when it comes to guys on the run, he tends to put it into their chest. I still can’t figure out why this hasn’t been addressed. It’s been a thing since his first year. 

[Big Turk]

A lot of deep crossers end up near the sideline so the receiver takes a few steps and is OOB.  

 

A lot of routes are stop and comebacks which are not going to get a lot of YAC.

 

He doesn't throw as many checkdowns to backs who gain 10-15 yards after the catch or screens where they are behind the LOS so they have lots of space to run.  

 

The offense is designed differently and relies more on Allen using his arm to gain those extra 5-6 yards versus the receivers running the extra 5 or 6 yards.  

 

Unsure why some people continuously keep harping on this as if there is something wrong.  Nothing is wrong, it's just an offense that isn't designed to rack up huge YAC numbers.  Allen hit Davis in stride 35 yards downfield in the corner of the endzone yesterday but got 0 YAC yards.  Would it have made you feel better if his arm was weaker and he hit him at the 12 yard line and he picked up 10 YAC yards to the 2 before being shoved out of bounds and then they had to settle for a FG?

 

Essentially...stop trying to manufacture problems that aren't actually problems.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Big Turk

[WotAGuy]

I think some of it is the receivers - Diggs is great, but he really isn’t a good open field runner.  He’s mostly looking to protect the ball and himself it seems, which is ok by me.  But I have noticed the same thing about YAC with this team. 

[Ramza86]

Just not enough speed to hit YAC type plays on this team. 

[The Wiz]

The difference is they are getting the yards in the air most of the time.  Other teams will hit a 3-5 yard slant that ends up getting 10-15 yards.  The bills get all 10-15 yards in the air (most of the time).

[thenorthremembers]

How often do you see Josh hit a wideout in stride?  How often do you see Josh hit a wideout from the pocket or on platform?

 

The team, and fans a like are chasing an invisible monster.  The Bills arent good in YAC because there often isnt any YAC to be had. 

 

As much as I love our Quarterback he isnt a rhythm thrower, and that is the Bills biggest problem when it comes to YAC.

[T master]

On 9/25/2023 at 1:00 PM, quinnearlysghost88 said:

We all watch other teams play aside from the Bills. We’re able to see teams hit WRs in stride and make big plays. 
 

meanwhile our big plays are stationary catches. 20 yard strikes to a Knox on his knees or a zone sitting Diggs who rolls for another yard. 
 

Diggs was ranked 26th in YAC last year. Dont get me wrong, Josh is amazing at hitting stationary targets. But when it comes to guys on the run, he tends to put it into their chest. I still can’t figure out why this hasn’t been addressed. It’s been a thing since his first year. 

 

That 36 yd pass to gabe in stride going into the end zone looked pretty dam good to me !! Just saying . And those passes to Cook in the open field looked good too !! 

Edited September 27, 2023 by T master

[Buffalo716]

Two types of throws...

 

Throws that travel air distance

 

And rhythm throws 

 

Josh throws comeback routes at the sidelines ... hitch routes , and long crossing routes... posts ... He scrambles and hits receivers ad libbing 

 

None of that is great for yards after catch... They're good for long completions though

 

YAC is built on routes under 5-7 yards.. rub routes , mesh concepts , WR screens , 

 

You catch a ball 3 yards down the field and run for 7... Josh would just rather throw the ball 11 yd down field 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Buffalo716

[BuffaloBillyG]

Hard to catch a ball thrown with the velocity that Allen has in stride. Any kind of looking upfield too soon is going to result in a ball glancing off a guys hands and possibly getting picked. And we have seen that many times over the years.

[SectionC3]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

A lot of deep crossers end up near the sideline so the receiver takes a few steps and is OOB.  

 

A lot of routes are stop and comebacks which are not going to get a lot of YAC.

 

He doesn't throw as many checkdowns to backs who gain 10-15 yards after the catch or screens where they are behind the LOS so they have lots of space to run.  

 

The offense is designed differently and relies more on Allen using his arm to gain those extra 5-6 yards versus the receivers running the extra 5 or 6 yards.  

 

Unsure why some people continuously keep harping on this as if there is something wrong.  Nothing is wrong, it's just an offense that isn't designed to rack up huge YAC numbers.  Allen hit Davis in stride 35 yards downfield in the corner of the endzone yesterday but got 0 YAC yards.  Would it have made you feel better if his arm was weaker and he hit him at the 12 yard line and he picked up 10 YAC yards to the 2 before being shoved out of bounds and then they had to settle for a FG?

 

Essentially...stop trying to manufacture problems that aren't actually problems.

Completely agree.  Allen’s huge arm, and the nature of our deep attack,  basically make him a target thrower.  Which is fine with me.  I’ll take Diggs in the 4Q in Detroit over a mediocre talent who racks up YAC yards.  My only beef on YAC lies in the screen game, but that’s a different topic altogether. 

[BuffBillsForLife]

2 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Hard to catch a ball thrown with the velocity that Allen has in stride. Any kind of looking upfield too soon is going to result in a ball glancing off a guys hands and possibly getting picked. And we have seen that many times over the years.

Pretty much this.  Allen throws rockets that get where they need to go and can fit in windows that basically no other QB could do, but they're very difficult to catch and any ball placed in front of the receiver where he has to catch it purely with his hands runs the risk of things going horribly wrong.

[RoyBatty is alive]

1 hour ago, WotAGuy said:

I think some of it is the receivers - Diggs is great, but he really isn’t a good open field runner.  He’s mostly looking to protect the ball and himself it seems, which is ok by me.  But I have noticed the same thing about YAC with this team. 

I noticed that with Diggs yesterday and he does a very good job of that.  He is not going to try  for a Dawson Knox roll over a defender.  I was impressed they was he can do that, very Russell Wilson like in his prime.

Edited September 25, 2023 by RoyBatty is alive

[Bangarang]

It’s scheme and play design. 

[Prospector]

54 minutes ago, T master said:

 

That 36 yd [ass to gabe in stride going into the end zone looked pretty dam good to me !! Just saying . And those passes to Cook in the open field looked good too !! 

36 yd what? that's dumb thicc!

[quinnearlysghost88]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

A lot of deep crossers end up near the sideline so the receiver takes a few steps and is OOB.  

 

A lot of routes are stop and comebacks which are not going to get a lot of YAC.

 

He doesn't throw as many checkdowns to backs who gain 10-15 yards after the catch or screens where they are behind the LOS so they have lots of space to run.  

 

The offense is designed differently and relies more on Allen using his arm to gain those extra 5-6 yards versus the receivers running the extra 5 or 6 yards.  

 

Unsure why some people continuously keep harping on this as if there is something wrong.  Nothing is wrong, it's just an offense that isn't designed to rack up huge YAC numbers.  Allen hit Davis in stride 35 yards downfield in the corner of the endzone yesterday but got 0 YAC yards.  Would it have made you feel better if his arm was weaker and he hit him at the 12 yard line and he picked up 10 YAC yards to the 2 before being shoved out of bounds and then they had to settle for a FG?

 

Essentially...stop trying to manufacture problems that aren't actually problems.

I agree with a lot of what you’re saying. Boundary routes and throws to the end zone don’t have YAC. So you see as an imperfect measurement for success. 
 

but what you can’t deny is our comeback, checkdown offense leaves us in A LOT of third and longs. And it’s great when we’re completing them and famine when we’re not. 
 

im not trying to “create a problem” but I’m not going to view everything with rose tinted glasses when we beat up some scrubs. 
 

these are the things that bite us. 

[Big Turk]

2 minutes ago, quinnearlysghost88 said:

I agree with a lot of what you’re saying. Boundary routes and throws to the end zone don’t have YAC. So you see as an imperfect measurement for success. 
 

but what you can’t deny is our comeback, checkdown offense leaves us in A LOT of third and longs. And it’s great when we’re completing them and famine when we’re not. 
 

im not trying to “create a problem” but I’m not going to view everything with rose tinted glasses when we beat up some scrubs. 
 

these are the things that bite us. 

 

We are the best team in the NFL on 3rd downs over the past season plus this year(20 games-17 last year and 3 this year) converting over 50% of them...and I believe were 2nd the year before that in the high 40% range.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Big Turk

[DrDawkinstein]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

A lot of deep crossers end up near the sideline so the receiver takes a few steps and is OOB.  

 

A lot of routes are stop and comebacks which are not going to get a lot of YAC.

 

He doesn't throw as many checkdowns to backs who gain 10-15 yards after the catch or screens where they are behind the LOS so they have lots of space to run.  

 

The offense is designed differently and relies more on Allen using his arm to gain those extra 5-6 yards versus the receivers running the extra 5 or 6 yards.  

 

Unsure why some people continuously keep harping on this as if there is something wrong.  Nothing is wrong, it's just an offense that isn't designed to rack up huge YAC numbers.  Allen hit Davis in stride 35 yards downfield in the corner of the endzone yesterday but got 0 YAC yards.  Would it have made you feel better if his arm was weaker and he hit him at the 12 yard line and he picked up 10 YAC yards to the 2 before being shoved out of bounds and then they had to settle for a FG?

 

Essentially...stop trying to manufacture problems that aren't actually problems.

 

Great points.

 

I'd also add that between Josh's deep ball ability and running ability, teams play us differently.

 

They keep Safeties deep to prevent the deep plays, and that allows them to keep the catches in front of them and come up and make the tackle.

 

Also, teams keep an LB around to spy on Josh, so you get an extra tackler roaming around the short middle. Free to slide to where the ball is going and help make the tackle.

 

All in all, not a problem.

 

[Big Turk]

Just now, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Great points.

 

I'd also add that between Josh's deep ball ability and running ability, teams play us differently.

 

They keep Safeties deep to prevent the deep plays, and that allows them to keep the catches in front of them and come up and make the tackle.

 

Also, teams keep an LB around to spy on Josh, so you get an extra tackler roaming around the short middle. Free to slide to where the ball is going and help make the tackle.

 

All in all, not a problem.

 

 

Yes...Bills attack vertically while most teams attack horizontally, which gives them more running room on shorter throws.

[PromoTheRobot]

2 hours ago, quinnearlysghost88 said:

We all watch other teams play aside from the Bills. We’re able to see teams hit WRs in stride and make big plays. 
 

meanwhile our big plays are stationary catches. 20 yard strikes to a Knox on his knees or a zone sitting Diggs who rolls for another yard. 
 

Diggs was ranked 26th in YAC last year. Dont get me wrong, Josh is amazing at hitting stationary targets. But when it comes to guys on the run, he tends to put it into their chest. I still can’t figure out why this hasn’t been addressed. It’s been a thing since his first year. 

 

What if I told you YAC is meaningless?

 

 

YAC is for QBs with noodle arms.

Edited September 25, 2023 by PromoTheRobot

[BuffaloBill]

2 hours ago, quinnearlysghost88 said:

We all watch other teams play aside from the Bills. We’re able to see teams hit WRs in stride and make big plays. 
 

meanwhile our big plays are stationary catches. 20 yard strikes to a Knox on his knees or a zone sitting Diggs who rolls for another yard. 
 

Diggs was ranked 26th in YAC last year. Dont get me wrong, Josh is amazing at hitting stationary targets. But when it comes to guys on the run, he tends to put it into their chest. I still can’t figure out why this hasn’t been addressed. It’s been a thing since his first year. 

 

Really?

[Mr. WEO]

56 minutes ago, BuffBillsForLife said:

Pretty much this.  Allen throws rockets that get where they need to go and can fit in windows that basically no other QB could do, but they're very difficult to catch and any ball placed in front of the receiver where he has to catch it purely with his hands runs the risk of things going horribly wrong.

 

lots of DBs must have really strong hands...

[Buffalo716]

59 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

I noticed that with Diggs yesterday and he does a very good job of that.  He is not going to try  for a Dawson Knox roll over a defender.  I was impressed they was he can do that, very Russell Wilson like in his prime.

Diggs is phenomenal in the open field

 

He consistently stops on a dime and make people run past him and miss.. we just want to get the ball in his hands 20 yards downfield not three

[No_Matter_What]

2 hours ago, WotAGuy said:

I think some of it is the receivers - Diggs is great, but he really isn’t a good open field runner.  He’s mostly looking to protect the ball and himself it seems, which is ok by me.  But I have noticed the same thing about YAC with this team. 

Absolutely this. I've mentioned it yesterday in GDT.

 

Diggs is below average in YAC and it's on him. I am completely fine with it; just like you said, once he has the ball, he is protecting himself. I am pretty sure he could have had much more YAC if he changed his playstyle.

[QLBillsFan]

2 hours ago, quinnearlysghost88 said:

We all watch other teams play aside from the Bills. We’re able to see teams hit WRs in stride and make big plays. 
 

meanwhile our big plays are stationary catches. 20 yard strikes to a Knox on his knees or a zone sitting Diggs who rolls for another yard. 
 

Diggs was ranked 26th in YAC last year. Dont get me wrong, Josh is amazing at hitting stationary targets. But when it comes to guys on the run, he tends to put it into their chest. I still can’t figure out why this hasn’t been addressed. It’s been a thing since his first year. 

Those come from a lot of crossing patterns.  Not something the Bills do a lot of. Not sure this is on either JA or the receivers. It’s different patterns.

[Scott7975]

2 hours ago, Big Turk said:

A lot of deep crossers end up near the sideline so the receiver takes a few steps and is OOB.  

 

A lot of routes are stop and comebacks which are not going to get a lot of YAC.

 

He doesn't throw as many checkdowns to backs who gain 10-15 yards after the catch or screens where they are behind the LOS so they have lots of space to run.  

 

The offense is designed differently and relies more on Allen using his arm to gain those extra 5-6 yards versus the receivers running the extra 5 or 6 yards.  

 

Unsure why some people continuously keep harping on this as if there is something wrong.  Nothing is wrong, it's just an offense that isn't designed to rack up huge YAC numbers.  Allen hit Davis in stride 35 yards downfield in the corner of the endzone yesterday but got 0 YAC yards.  Would it have made you feel better if his arm was weaker and he hit him at the 12 yard line and he picked up 10 YAC yards to the 2 before being shoved out of bounds and then they had to settle for a FG?

 

Essentially...stop trying to manufacture problems that aren't actually problems.

 

It is a big deal. When we have to be in dink and dunk mode its far easier for an offense like the Chiefs who throw for 3 yards and run for 10 or 20 more than it is for us who throw for 3 yards and mostly fall over for another yard.  It has been better this year than years past though.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Scott7975

[Beast]

Yeah, our offense totally sucks.

 

From the files of “I need something to B word about”.

[Buffalo Junction]

28 minutes ago, No_Matter_What said:

Absolutely this. I've mentioned it yesterday in GDT.

 

Diggs is below average in YAC and it's on him. I am completely fine with it; just like you said, once he has the ball, he is protecting himself. I am pretty sure he could have had much more YAC if he changed his playstyle.

He definitely protects himself. In must win situations and the playoffs he tends to add back that extra effort. 

[WotAGuy]

2 hours ago, quinnearlysghost88 said:

I agree with a lot of what you’re saying. Boundary routes and throws to the end zone don’t have YAC. So you see as an imperfect measurement for success. 
 

but what you can’t deny is our comeback, checkdown offense leaves us in A LOT of third and longs. And it’s great when we’re completing them and famine when we’re not. 
 

im not trying to “create a problem” but I’m not going to view everything with rose tinted glasses when we beat up some scrubs. 
 

these are the things that bite us. 

At the same time, I am glad they don’t throw 7-yard passes and 3rd and 10 and expect the receiver to run for the first down. Those are super frustrating when they don’t work. Like the WR screen to Diggs on 3rd and 12 yesterday. The Bills are terrible at those. 

[Goin Breakdown]

3 hours ago, thenorthremembers said:

How often do you see Josh hit a wideout in stride?  How often do you see Josh hit a wideout from the pocket or on platform?

 

The team, and fans a like are chasing an invisible monster.  The Bills arent good in YAC because there often isnt any YAC to be had. 

 

As much as I love our Quarterback he isnt a rhythm thrower, and that is the Bills biggest problem when it comes to YAC.

You can't say that. 15 minute penalty repeats first response. 

[RyanC883]

2 hours ago, quinnearlysghost88 said:

I agree with a lot of what you’re saying. Boundary routes and throws to the end zone don’t have YAC. So you see as an imperfect measurement for success. 
 

but what you can’t deny is our comeback, checkdown offense leaves us in A LOT of third and longs. And it’s great when we’re completing them and famine when we’re not. 
 

im not trying to “create a problem” but I’m not going to view everything with rose tinted glasses when we beat up some scrubs. 
 

these are the things that bite us. 

 

I'm of several thoughts here.  One is that the offense is good with the longer passes, but at the same time, it does make us more one dimensional and we would be better served by adding YAC routes into our offense.  Teams that can do both put up massive numbers and generally last longer in the postseason.  Perhaps we have those but have not called them yet.  

[Goin Breakdown]

2 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

What if I told you YAC is meaningless?

 

 

YAC is for QBs with noodle arms.

So if the Bills get torched by Miami you better believe that this board will be swarming with YAK conversations, and a large body of us will be right in on the conversation. It's not so far fetched to think about given that the players and coaches have been saying that they need to get better at it. 

[Don Otreply]

3 hours ago, Big Turk said:

A lot of deep crossers end up near the sideline so the receiver takes a few steps and is OOB.  

 

A lot of routes are stop and comebacks which are not going to get a lot of YAC.

 

He doesn't throw as many checkdowns to backs who gain 10-15 yards after the catch or screens where they are behind the LOS so they have lots of space to run.  

 

The offense is designed differently and relies more on Allen using his arm to gain those extra 5-6 yards versus the receivers running the extra 5 or 6 yards.  

 

Unsure why some people continuously keep harping on this as if there is something wrong.  Nothing is wrong, it's just an offense that isn't designed to rack up huge YAC numbers.  Allen hit Davis in stride 35 yards downfield in the corner of the endzone yesterday but got 0 YAC yards.  Would it have made you feel better if his arm was weaker and he hit him at the 12 yard line and he picked up 10 YAC yards to the 2 before being shoved out of bounds and then they had to settle for a FG?

 

Essentially...stop trying to manufacture problems that aren't actually problems.

This right here, ^^^

 

we have had more issues with the offense trying to get YAC than when we didn’t seem to care. Just feed Kincaid over the middle and all the YAC that’s necessary is taken care of. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

We are 4th in the league with 290 yards of YAC. I was shocked by this number because it seems like much less. Diggs is 18th with 71 yards. 

So maybe it is perception and not reality.

[WotAGuy]

14 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

We are 4th in the league with 290 yards of YAC. I was shocked by this number because it seems like much less. Diggs is 18th with 71 yards. 

So maybe it is perception and not reality.

Is it really necessary to bring facts into this discussion?  Geez. 

[BeavercreekBillsFan]

23 minutes ago, Goin Breakdown said:

So if the Bills get torched by Miami you better believe that this board will be swarming with YAK conversations, and a large body of us will be right in on the conversation. It's not so far fetched to think about given that the players and coaches have been saying that they need to get better at it. 

Agree. But it’s not fair to compare our YAC to MIA or SF. They’re unreal at it. But we all watch other games. It is annoying how every other team has guys that take a 5 yard dump off and get 9 or 10 while we get taken down immediately. It matters because teams are going to continue to give us the short stuff and if we can’t make them pay with YAC and make Josh’s job easier, then we will struggle against good defenses. 

[Virgil]

This is something I noticed in the game yesterday.  Josh wasn’t able to hit crossing routes in stride.  There were two plays specifically I recall where the receiver had to slow down just enough so the defender could catch them.  
 

Granted, there’s a lot of stop and go routes and other plays where Josh is hitting a stationary target, but it’s still something to keep an eye on. 

[Milanos Milano]

2 hours ago, Beast said:

Yeah, our offense totally sucks.

 

From the files of “I need something to B word about”.

Well I mean it kind of does compared to Mahomes and Maauto. Mahomes currently has 9 games over 400 yards to Allen’s 4. 

[BeavercreekBillsFan]

4 hours ago, Big Turk said:

A lot of deep crossers end up near the sideline so the receiver takes a few steps and is OOB.  

 

A lot of routes are stop and comebacks which are not going to get a lot of YAC.

 

He doesn't throw as many checkdowns to backs who gain 10-15 yards after the catch or screens where they are behind the LOS so they have lots of space to run.  

 

The offense is designed differently and relies more on Allen using his arm to gain those extra 5-6 yards versus the receivers running the extra 5 or 6 yards.  

 

Unsure why some people continuously keep harping on this as if there is something wrong.  Nothing is wrong, it's just an offense that isn't designed to rack up huge YAC numbers.  Allen hit Davis in stride 35 yards downfield in the corner of the endzone yesterday but got 0 YAC yards.  Would it have made you feel better if his arm was weaker and he hit him at the 12 yard line and he picked up 10 YAC yards to the 2 before being shoved out of bounds and then they had to settle for a FG?

 

Essentially...stop trying to manufacture problems that aren't actually problems.

Then let’s call some simple short crossers that act as de facto pick routes on 3rd and 4th and short like every other team does. They’re simple and virtually unstoppable and lead to big gains. My biggest gripe with Dorsey’s offense is how difficult he schemes things up for josh and never gives him the easy stuff. 

[Pete]

2 hours ago, quinnearlysghost88 said:

I agree with a lot of what you’re saying. Boundary routes and throws to the end zone don’t have YAC. So you see as an imperfect measurement for success. 
 

but what you can’t deny is our comeback, checkdown offense leaves us in A LOT of third and longs. And it’s great when we’re completing them and famine when we’re not. 
 

im not trying to “create a problem” but I’m not going to view everything with rose tinted glasses when we beat up some scrubs. 
 

these are the things that bite us. 

On first downs Sunday, we were not good.  Joe Marino said we had 18 first downs, 17 discounting kneel down.  I think he said 14 out 17 series, we were 2nd and 8, or worse

[Goin Breakdown]

6 minutes ago, BeavercreekBillsFan said:

Agree. But it’s not fair to compare our YAC to MIA or SF. They’re unreal at it. But we all watch other games. It is annoying how every other team has guys that take a 5 yard dump off and get 9 or 10 while we get taken down immediately. It matters because teams are going to continue to give us the short stuff and if we can’t make them pay with YAC and make Josh’s job easier, then we will struggle against good defenses. 

Of anything that I miss or wish we could do a better job at is scheming guys open. Beasley used to almost always be open and that supposed to be what DK was drafted for.