Kurt Warner analysis of JA

[Dr Krentist]

 

Maybe he's biased because he was a QB but he, not necessarily blames the WRs, but thinks they could have done more to help JA. Goes to show its the little things in every position that can alter or make a play.

[Fleezoid]

In my opinion, this is an indictment on Dorsey. If he didn't design it this way, he's certainly allowed the players to practice it this way. 

[78thealltimegreat]

I don’t think Dorsey knows what to do Josh played a very good first half… had a rough second half…recovered enough to get them in field goal range to tie it. 

In OT Knox dropped a pass, called a draw on 2nd and 15, and then Josh threw on incompletion to Diggs. Then a Sam Martin line drive special.

 

I agree with Kurt’s analysis these receivers don’t really make contested catches or fight for balls. 
 

Now Dorsey has admitted he didn’t want Josh running and limited his runs. 

[VaMilBill]

5 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

I don’t think Dorsey knows what to do Josh played a very good first half… had a rough second half…recovered enough to get them in field goal range to tie it. 

In OT Knox dropped a pass, called a draw on 2nd and 15, and then Josh threw on incompletion to Diggs. Then a Sam Martin line drive special.

 

I agree with Kurt’s analysis these receivers don’t really make contested catches or fight for balls. 
 

Now Dorsey has admitted he didn’t want Josh running and limited his runs. 

Our WR corps is mediocre outside of Diggs. I would very much be in favor of trading up to get Marvin Harrison jr next draft

[NewEra]

3 minutes ago, VaMilBill said:

Our WR corps is mediocre outside of Diggs. I would very much be in favor of trading up to get Marvin Harrison jr next draft

Gonna have to trade 3-4 first rd picks and more to get up there this season

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, VaMilBill said:

Our WR corps is mediocre outside of Diggs. I would very much be in favor of trading up to get Marvin Harrison jr next draft

 

If your QB needs Diggs and Harrison to be win you have the wrong QB.

[billsbackto81]

16 minutes ago, Fleezoid said:

In my opinion, this is an indictment on Dorsey. If he didn't design it this way, he's certainly allowed the players to practice it this way. 

Valid point. 

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

If your QB needs Diggs and Harrison to be win you have the wrong QB.

I know its early and there are 16 games left, but they're not saying that in Miami right now. 

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, billsbackto81 said:

 

I know its early and there are 16 games left, but they're not saying that in Miami right now. 

 

The point is if Tua needs those two to be good he is the wrong guy. We won't find out until the contract issue forces the point. 

[juno999]

Curious to know if Kincaid was running the right depth per the Bills.  Bad route running or bad route design?  Maybe a rookie playing his first game making rookie mistakes.

[78thealltimegreat]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

If your QB needs Diggs and Harrison to be win you have the wrong QB.

Does Hurts need Brown and Smith or Burrow need Chase and Higgins? Or San Fran need Samuel, Kittle, and Mcaffery?

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

19 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

I don’t think Dorsey knows what to do Josh played a very good first half… had a rough second half…recovered enough to get them in field goal range to tie it. 

In OT Knox dropped a pass, called a draw on 2nd and 15, and then Josh threw on incompletion to Diggs. Then a Sam Martin line drive special.

 

I agree with Kurt’s analysis these receivers don’t really make contested catches or fight for balls. 
 

Now Dorsey has admitted he didn’t want Josh running and limited his runs. 

 

In OT watch the route Diggs runs on the incomplete.  He made his cut and then stands there for a quick sec before moving - hence an incompletion by a few inches.

[78thealltimegreat]

5 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

 

In OT watch the route Diggs runs on the incomplete.  He made his cut and then stands there for a quick sec before moving - hence an incompletion by a few inches.

I’ll definitely do that as that play just seemed a little odd 

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Does Hurts need Brown and Smith or Burrow need Chase and Higgins? Or San Fran need Samuel, Kittle, and Mcaffery?

 

San Fran, yes. Cos they don't have a top flight QB. They need to elevate him. With the other two they didn't know at the point they added the 2nd guy. If they remove the second guy and it falls apart it ain't the right guy. If you can't make it work with Diggs, David, Knox and Kincaid it is the wrong QB.

1 minute ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

I’ll definitely do that as that play just seemed a little odd 

 

It was odd cos the QB turned a scripted play into a scramble drill unnecessarily. 

[Scott7975]

Gee basically same thing I said about the Davis play and most disagreed with.  Guess the board knows better than Kurt Warner and Troy Aikman.  Sauce was covering Kincaid.  Josh made the right read to Davis.  Davis route messed that play up.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Scott7975

[SCBills]

31 minutes ago, VaMilBill said:

Our WR corps is mediocre outside of Diggs. I would very much be in favor of trading up to get Marvin Harrison jr next draft

We’re not doing that, but our WR room outside Diggs isn’t mediocre… it’s below average unless Davis decides he’s actually a WR2.  
 

Currently we have a WR3 and some WR4’s supporting Diggs and a couple TE’s that heaven knows we’ll ever figure out how to use. 

[Augie]

33 minutes ago, VaMilBill said:

Our WR corps is mediocre outside of Diggs. I would very much be in favor of trading up to get Marvin Harrison jr next draft

 

So, how do we decide who gives up their first born?   🤷‍♂️

[Charles Romes]

2 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

Gee basically same thing I said about the Davis play and most disagreed with.  Guess the board knows better than Kurt Warner and Troy Aikman.  Sauce was covering Kincaid.  Josh made the right read to Davis.  Davis route messed that play up.

how often was sauce covering Kincaid. That’s a good sign if they put their number 1 on the rook

[K-9]

1 minute ago, Charles Romes said:

how often was sauce covering Kincaid. That’s a good sign if they put their number 1 on the rook

Sauce wasn’t “covering” Kincaid all night, so much as there were times when Kincaid’s route brought him into Gardner’s zone responsibility. 

[Goin Breakdown]

Who does Warner think he is telling us smart things about football. 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Goin Breakdown

[PBF81]

When there's open receivers, regardless of the reason, and Allen isn't under that much pressure that he doesn't have time to read/see them, and doesn't hit them and instead goes into double or triple coverage for an incompletion or INT, it's not the receivers.  

 

Send four out, hopefully one or two are open.  THAT'S the job, process which one quickly, pre-reading the D is key, and then hit that open WR.  

 

I don't know where the post is, but I specifically pointed out numerous times when that was exactly the case and Allen did not hit the open guy or even try.  And I included none where there would have been any chance of an INT whatsoever.  

 

 

It also gets old having everyone but McD get any of the blame for this.  

[Augie]

11 minutes ago, Goin Breakdown said:

Who does Warner think he is telling is smart things about football. 

 

I wish he’d tell Dorsey and the WR coach first! Like…..PRONTO! 

[mannc]

Admittedly, I don’t know that much about NFL Xs and Os, but these seem like really lousy route concepts.  Dorsey should be embarrassed.

Edited September 15, 2023 by mannc

[Augie]

11 minutes ago, mannc said:

Admittedly, I don’t that much about NFL Xs and Os, but these seem like really lousy route concepts.  Dorsey should be embarrassed.

 

I think the concepts are fairly common, but the execution was horrible based upon what he showed. Not just needing a little extra depth on the deep patter, but it seemed they were just “rounding” the cuts. 

 

 

.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Augie

[NoSaint]

1 hour ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

I don’t think Dorsey knows what to do Josh played a very good first half… had a rough second half…recovered enough to get them in field goal range to tie it. 

In OT Knox dropped a pass, called a draw on 2nd and 15, and then Josh threw on incompletion to Diggs. Then a Sam Martin line drive special.

 

I agree with Kurt’s analysis these receivers don’t really make contested catches or fight for balls. 
 

Now Dorsey has admitted he didn’t want Josh running and limited his runs. 

Davis particularly runs soft routes, doesn’t fight for the ball and when plays break down he tends to be not the most qb friendly guy. 
 

I really thought in addition to the ankle there was maybe some core injury. He just moved like a cruise ship sometimes last year… but he’s still just not a crisp mover 

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

If your QB needs Diggs and Harrison to be win you have the wrong QB.

No one said that either though. Needing and wanting are different.

[Wayne Arnold]

Once Josh saw Davis cut too soon he should have eaten it and maybe thrown underneath to Diggs on the crossing route.

 

Allen needlessly attempting big throws was the theme of the loss. This was one such example.

[mannc]

24 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

I think the concepts are fairly common, but the execution was horrible based upon what he showed. Not just needing a little extra depth on the deep patter, but it seemed they were just “rounding” the cuts. 

 

 

.

Agreed, and that's also something that Dorsey is ultimately responsible for...

[Augie]

1 hour ago, NoSaint said:

 

No one said that either though. Needing and wanting are different.

 

….and delusional cravings are yet something else. 

 

He will be a top pick stud. We can’t get there from where we should end up. 

 

 

.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Augie

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 hour ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

I don’t think Dorsey knows what to do Josh played a very good first half… had a rough second half…recovered enough to get them in field goal range to tie it. 

In OT Knox dropped a pass, called a draw on 2nd and 15, and then Josh threw on incompletion to Diggs. Then a Sam Martin line drive special.

 

I agree with Kurt’s analysis these receivers don’t really make contested catches or fight for balls. 
 

Now Dorsey has admitted he didn’t want Josh running and limited his runs. 

But the Bills are more than ok with continuing on with Spencer Brown at RT allowing pressure and sacks for a 3rd year now. 

[Scott7975]

1 hour ago, Charles Romes said:

how often was sauce covering Kincaid. That’s a good sign if they put their number 1 on the rook

 

I dunno. I haven't watched any film or anything but they were playing zone mostly I think, so it's whoever was in his zone.  I seen this though...

 

 

54 minutes ago, mannc said:

Admittedly, I don’t know that much about NFL Xs and Os, but these seem like really lousy route concepts.  Dorsey should be embarrassed.

 

It's not the concepts themselves. Those are routes to beat zone coverage.  It's the execution of those routes that is bad.

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, Scott7975 said:

Gee basically same thing I said about the Davis play and most disagreed with.  Guess the board knows better than Kurt Warner and Troy Aikman.  Sauce was covering Kincaid.  Josh made the right read to Davis.  Davis route messed that play up.

 

You and me both. It's frustrating when people make judgments about QB play without understanding what the QB's job is on each play. Allen followed the exact concept of this play but it wasn't executed well.

 

Also I previously blamed Davis for this route, and while it certainly was not a crisp route, seeing the other two examples of the same problem from different players I now mostly blame Dorsey for this interception. I don't know what it is with this offense and route depth. It's been an issue for years even when Daboll was here. Too many times we see WRs end up right next to each other when the ball is thrown. On Allen's 2nd interception Sherfield didn't get nearly enough depth to draw Whitehead's attention.

 

Pro football requires absolute precision in the most minute details, especially against a fundamentally and technically sound defense like the Jets have. Is Dorsey coaching these details at a high level? I'm not convinced.

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, PBF81 said:

When there's open receivers, regardless of the reason, and Allen isn't under that much pressure that he doesn't have time to read/see them, and doesn't hit them and instead goes into double or triple coverage for an incompletion or INT, it's not the receivers.  

 

You're not understanding the concept of the play. Davis isn't double covered, he's supposed to split the zones of the CB and the safety. That's the whole point of the high/low post corner. In fact this play is exactly what everybody wants Allen to do - read the defense pre-snap, confirm the coverage post-snap, get the ball out right away based on the read. But none of that matters if the read is taken away by a lousy route concept and lousy execution.

 

59 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said:

Once Josh saw Davis cut too soon he should have eaten it and maybe thrown underneath to Diggs on the crossing route.

 

The issue is that Davis didn't necessarily cut too soon. Based on the other two examples Kurt Warner showed that is for some reason how Dorsey wants that concept run. It doesn't make any sense.

 

Allen is literally just following the concept of the play. Isn't that what everyone wants? If he messed anything up it's the ball placement but like Warner pointed out he is rushing the throw because of when Davis breaks.

 

Allen made a lot of mistakes in this game. This wasn't one of them.

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by HappyDays

[Ramza86]

What im taking out of this video is that we are playing about half a second too fast.....and all of that stems from poor protection.

 

Causes everyone to break out earlier, Josh to make his decision earlier. Its just a mess this organization failed to address for Allen's entire career. 

 

 

[NoSaint]

32 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

You and me both. It's frustrating when people make judgments about QB play without understanding what the QB's job is on each play. Allen followed the exact concept of this play but it wasn't executed well.

 

Also I previously blamed Davis for this route, and while it certainly was not a crisp route, seeing the other two examples of the same problem from different players I now mostly blame Dorsey for this interception. I don't know what it is with this offense and route depth. It's been an issue for years even when Daboll was here. Too many times we see WRs end up right next to each other when the ball is thrown. On Allen's 2nd interception Sherfield didn't get nearly enough depth to draw Whitehead's attention.

 

Pro football requires absolute precision in the most minute details, especially against a fundamentally and technically sound defense like the Jets have. Is Dorsey coaching these details at a high level? I'm not convinced.

agreed. And it’s hard to put your finger on it to make a message board argument but generally agree that a lot is not crisp, and the system is not sharp and we often have a goofy play call like the OT draw at big times…. And that’s not to say it’s a dumpster fire but…. I wonder often what we’d look like with true offensive leadership in the building. Daboll was better but having an offensive head coach, and an OC who’s sharp would be welcome. 

[Trogdor]

2 hours ago, Fleezoid said:

In my opinion, this is an indictment on Dorsey. If he didn't design it this way, he's certainly allowed the players to practice it this way. 

I'm not a fan of Dorsey and I think the play calling was bad, but how many videos of open receivers do you need to see? They invested in slot and he doesn't use them. Josh overlooked sure things for big plays against a defense specifically designed to stop big plays. 

[4th&long]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

If your QB needs Diggs and Harrison to be win you have the wrong QB.

Tom Brady always had good to great wr and te. Gronk and moss in ne. Evan’s and Godwin in Tampa. 

[EmotionallyUnstable]

God could you imagine if David had snapped that corner back to the post on a double move? The way the safety jumped that, he’d still be running.

[QCity]

3 hours ago, Dr Krentist said:

 

Maybe he's biased because he was a QB but he, not necessarily blames the WRs, but thinks they could have done more to help JA. Goes to show its the little things in every position that can alter or make a play.

 

It's an excellent analysis of that play. The problem of receivers not knowing how long to run a stem route is something that should have been fixed in training camp.

[NoSaint]

Just now, EmotionallyUnstable said:

God could you imagine if David had snapped that corner back to the post on a double move? The way the safety jumped that, he’d still be running.

Davis doesn’t snap. Turning twice would take far too long.

[TwistofFate]

2 hours ago, juno999 said:

Curious to know if Kincaid was running the right depth per the Bills.  Bad route running or bad route design?  Maybe a rookie playing his first game making rookie mistakes.

He was, we needed a first down.  He was at the sticks. His depth looked perfect. 

8 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

God could you imagine if David had snapped that corner back to the post on a double move? The way the safety jumped that, he’d still be running.

I thought the same thing.  Why no double move?  Safety was playing so aggressive he could have been set up and burned. 

[Billl]

3 hours ago, Dr Krentist said:

 

Maybe he's biased because he was a QB but he, not necessarily blames the WRs, but thinks they could have done more to help JA. Goes to show its the little things in every position that can alter or make a play.

This is embarrassing.  Josh was awful.  He needs to play better.