D-line coach Eric Washington’s comments on Ed Oliver — hoo boy

[Logic]

In college, Oliver was very good at stopping the run and plugging gaps, but had only decent pass rush production. In the pros, he's been basically the same. A generally good run stopper who shows flashes of quality pass rush but is simply not someone to be feared in the pass rushing department.

The Bills figured, based on his physical skillset and his being miscast as a nose tackle in college, that they could harness his quickness and athleticism as a 3T and unlock the pass rushing facet of his game. It hasn't quite worked out that way.

When you use Beane's "draft elite physical specimens who haven't reached their potential and entrust the coaching staff to help them reach that potential" model, sometimes it works out (Josh Allen, Matt Milano), and sometimes it doesn't (Ed Oliver, Tremaine Edmunds). Sometimes you get the bear, and sometimes the bear gets you.

 

Edited June 2, 2023 by Logic

[PBF81]

30 minutes ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

Not to mention, I thought getting off the line was supposed to be his strength when he was drafted.  Doesn’t seem to have consistently translated to the NFL for him.

 

That's because when he did it in college he did most of his damage against a few siht schools and against substandard collegiate talent.  We should have scouted that more accurately.  

 

 

[John from Riverside]

All the physical skills
Dumb as his horse

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

12 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

All the physical skills
Dumb as his horse

[SectionC3]

2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

I think the comments encapsulate why the draft is a crap shoot. All of these guys are athletically gifted coming out of college and most were that way their entire life. But when they turn professional they don’t all understand what kind of commitment is required to be good at your craft. And as pretty much any employer will tell you, the same can be said for just about every other college major as well.

Winners do stuff losers don’t want to do.  Everybody wants to be a winner.  But not everybody wants to do the work.  

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

Just now, SectionC3 said:

Winners do stuff losers don’t want to do.  Everybody wants to be a winner.  But not everybody wants to do the work.  

[dave mcbride]

2 hours ago, Simon said:

I interpret it as him saying that sometimes he's late to the line and slow off the snap.

Which he is.

Yeah, but: he's also throwing around terms like "from the neck up" and "process very quickly," "understanding," and "nuances," which are all very clearly comments on his mental approach (or lack thereof). To be fair, it might be completely true, but rarely do you see a coach call out a player in this way to a reporter. Maybe it's meant to be motivational, and I don't doubt it might work with some (not all) players when it's done in private. But to do it publicly? That's the sort of thing that may well come up in contract negotiations with other teams next year, and if I were Oliver or his agent, I'd be pretty PO'd.  

[LabattBlue]

Best case…Oliver has a monster year and the Bills win the SB. 

 

Have a great year…the Bills can’t afford to re-sign, hits FA, and maybe the Bills end up with a comp pick. 
 

Have a mediocre year…kick to the curb with a parting gift and wonder how McD and BB missed so badly on a 1st round pick, when 3 other DT’s were selected around that point, and we ended up with the dud. 

[That's No Moon]

4 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Yeah, but: he's also throwing around terms like "from the neck up" and "process very quickly," "understanding," and "nuances," which are all very clearly comments on his mental approach (or lack thereof). To be fair, it might be completely true, but rarely do you see a coach call out a player in this way to a reporter. Maybe it's meant to be motivational, and I don't doubt it might work with some (not all) players when it's done in private. But to do it publicly? That's the sort of thing that may well come up in contract negotiations with other teams next year, and if I were Oliver or his agent, I'd be pretty PO'd.  

Another D lineman they drafted and didn't really get the most out of. RAS demon, on field meh

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

3 hours ago, Your Brown Eye said:

So he's an idiot who rely's on his physical skills...great

that was pretty much my takeaway too. Not a smart player. 

[PBF81]

34 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Yeah, but: he's also throwing around terms like "from the neck up" and "process very quickly," "understanding," and "nuances," which are all very clearly comments on his mental approach (or lack thereof). To be fair, it might be completely true, but rarely do you see a coach call out a player in this way to a reporter. Maybe it's meant to be motivational, and I don't doubt it might work with some (not all) players when it's done in private. But to do it publicly? That's the sort of thing that may well come up in contract negotiations with other teams next year, and if I were Oliver or his agent, I'd be pretty PO'd.  

 

Good point, but who knows, maybe he's not seeing Oliver do these things now and for OTAs and he's firing a bow shot as a wake-up call.  

 

Keep in mind, the coaches are going to be feeling some pressure this year, if not from our fanbase then from the national media.  They obviously want to put their best foot forward.  I don't see our defense being ranked among the top-10 this year with the vacancies at LB, a mediocre DL, and a much stronger slate of offensive opponents on our schedule than we've faced on McD's entire watch.  

 

The offense may be our best ever, it also may end up being merely a good top-5 offense again.  I don't think we're going to get much help from our D during the regular season, which already struggles in the playoffs.  

 

 

[TheBrownBear]

Reading between the lines, I think he's saying we should trade him for Aaron Donald.

[BigAl2526]

Play smarter and anticipate.

[TheBrownBear]

51 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

Best case…Oliver has a monster year and the Bills win the SB. 

 

Have a great year…the Bills can’t afford to re-sign, hits FA, and maybe the Bills end up with a comp pick. 
 

Have a mediocre year…kick to the curb with a parting gift and wonder how McD and BB missed so badly on a 1st round pick, when 3 other DT’s were selected around that point, and we ended up with the dud. 

He's not a dud.  He's been a solid player for us - like a back half of the first round type of guy.  He just hasn't lived up to his draft position as an elite game changing type of player.

[LabattBlue]

18 minutes ago, TheBrownBear said:

He's not a dud.  He's been a solid player for us - like a back half of the first round type of guy.  He just hasn't lived up to his draft position as an elite game changing type of player.

IMO…a guy who disappears more often than not = dud

[Success]

I think we're going to get the same kind of contract year leap that we got from Edmunds.

 

And he'll likely move on after that, as Edmunds did. But if he can be consistent and play to his potential, it could go a long way toward getting us to a SB with this team.

 

[Don Otreply]

3 hours ago, DapperCam said:

Sounds like the coach is calling him too dumb, which is kind of mean.

I think its more that he is calling Ed intellectually lazy concerning his game prep, jmo.

[McDeerInTheHeadlights]

2 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

All the physical skills
Dumb as his horse

 

I'm not sure he has all the physical skills either.

 

His athleticism is made less effective or impactful by his lack of size.

[Dr.Mantis_Toboggan]

When was the last time this team hit a DL pick out of the park? I guess Kyle for a DT, almost 20 years ago…

 

I mean going back to 2000 this franchise has been woefully bad at selecting DL. Looking through 23 years worth of drafts, they really only hit on three DL draft picks.

Aaron Schobel in 01

Kyle Williams in 06

Harrison Phillips 18 (serviceable, nothing to brag about not retained obv)

*Marcell Dareus 11- Asterisk bc he was legit on his rookie deal, but as soon as he got the pay day he stopped trying and flamed out, so not exactly what you hope for out of the 3rd overall pick in the draft.

 

So 23 years of drafts, and one legit edge rusher, one HOF caliber DT, one serviceable DT, one who had all the talent in the world but gave up on himself… and then two decades plus of JAGS and busts like Flowers, Denney, the human epitomization of “mid” Chris Kelsay, Maybin, McCargo, Troupe, Lawson, Ed, Epenesa, Basham, Rousseau… I get it’s a hard position to draft, but this has to be like historically bad. Not one legit edge rusher drafted in 20+ years…

[Don Otreply]

2 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

All the physical skills
Dumb as his horse

Not many other animals that will run into a burning barn…,

[boyst]

this is nothing new - and what many expected from him in college. he has all of this talent and it was limited by other factors. his ceiling was obvious but he will have a long career in the nfl as long as he doesn't get lazier

[WotAGuy]

This is why there’s a Hall of Fame.  You can have all the physical talent and all the playbook knowledge, but if you don’t have the instincts, you’re JAG. 
 

It doesn’t sound like Ed has the instincts to be great. 

[billsbackto81]

6 hours ago, Your Brown Eye said:

So he's an idiot who rely's on his physical skills...great

And here I was thinking most of the NFL was filled with a bunch of high intellects that went to college for their scholastic aptitudes. 

 

Who knew?

[PBF81]

49 minutes ago, boyst said:

this is nothing new - and what many expected from him in college. he has all of this talent and it was limited by other factors. his ceiling was obvious but he will have a long career in the nfl as long as he doesn't get lazier

 

He was more of a late-2nd or 3rd-round pick.  

 

 

[HappyDays]

I've never seen the fire from Oliver that you see from the top tier players. Aaron Donald isn't just an athletic specimen, he is known to have an almost psychotic workout routine even in the offseason. For some guys the NFL season ends in February. For Donald it never stops. That's how a guy with his size became an all time great. I don't think Oliver is a total slacker like Dareus turned into, but he also hasn't fully committed himself to being great. Hopefully this being a contract year will incentivize him to give it his all, and then I don't care what sort of effort he gives in 2024 and beyond because it won't be with us.

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

9 hours ago, eball said:

There’s no question this is Oliver’s year to prove he deserves a big 2nd contract.  We’ll see what he does with it.

 

Even if he has a good season I still want him gone. Just proves his true motivations by performing well in a contract year. If Tre Edmunds wasn't good enough for a new deal then why should Ed Oliver get one? One is a top 5 player at his position and the other is a top 30.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Hated the pick then and still do.

He's at best a solid starter. For a top 10 pick that is not good enough. 

 

I will give a caveat to my post. He did have a bad ankle injury last year after starting the year well. 

Truly hope he can offer some inside pass rush. If he could get 8-10 sacks with 20 or so QB hurries he can make a big difference. 

Edited June 2, 2023 by Ethan in Cleveland

[Nephilim17]

5 hours ago, Dr.Mantis_Toboggan said:

When was the last time this team hit a DL pick out of the park? I guess Kyle for a DT, almost 20 years ago…

 

I mean going back to 2000 this franchise has been woefully bad at selecting DL. Looking through 23 years worth of drafts, they really only hit on three DL draft picks.

Aaron Schobel in 01

Kyle Williams in 06

Harrison Phillips 18 (serviceable, nothing to brag about not retained obv)

*Marcell Dareus 11- Asterisk bc he was legit on his rookie deal, but as soon as he got the pay day he stopped trying and flamed out, so not exactly what you hope for out of the 3rd overall pick in the draft.

 

So 23 years of drafts, and one legit edge rusher, one HOF caliber DT, one serviceable DT, one who had all the talent in the world but gave up on himself… and then two decades plus of JAGS and busts like Flowers, Denney, the human epitomization of “mid” Chris Kelsay, Maybin, McCargo, Troupe, Lawson, Ed, Epenesa, Basham, Rousseau… I get it’s a hard position to draft, but this has to be like historically bad. Not one legit edge rusher drafted in 20+ years…

When was the last time, not including Josh, that the BIlls knocked ANY first round pick out of the park? We've had some decent first rounders but not a lot and few great ones. I have to think Eric Moulds.. but maybe someone will remind of another great first rounder. 

[Einstein's Dog]

6 hours ago, TheBrownBear said:

Reading between the lines, I think he's saying we should trade him for Aaron Donald.

Close - to Dallas for picks and ultimately used for DHop.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/this-cowboys-bills-trade-proposal-sends-intriguing-defender-to-dallas/ar-AA1c2AGM?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=1cb4a97a5bcc40d6b77558faee3a4e1a&ei=26

[Sharky7337]

9 hours ago, DJB said:

Oliver has been a massive disappointment plain and simple 

No one wants to admit the truth 

[HurlyBurly51]

That's some honest feedback from the boss.  If it were a performance review it reads like a "needs improvement."  If I got that at work I'd be sweating bullets.  Can't say he wasn't warned.

[Solomon Grundy]

11 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

I think the comments encapsulate why the draft is a crap shoot. All of these guys are athletically gifted coming out of college and most were that way their entire life. But when they turn professional they don’t all understand what kind of commitment is required to be good at your craft. And as pretty much any employer will tell you, the same can be said for just about every other college major as well.

Isn't this an indictment of the scouting department? Aren't they supposed to interview said prospect to see what makes them tick? Speak with college coaches about their work habits? 

[Solomon Grundy]

10 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

 

Move on from this guy if possible, especially if we can fool someone into giving us something for him.

Haven't you learned that it is hard for Beane to move on from players he drafted😎

[Fan in Chicago]

9 minutes ago, Solomon Grundy said:

Haven't you learned that it is hard for Beane to move on from players he drafted😎

Zay Jones, Edmunds, Cody Ford, Wyatt Teller, Singletary, Moss...

[RunTheBall]

Ed is a dud. He’s either going to continue his meh play and get paid by another team or he’s going to have a monster contract year and get paid by another team.

 

Can anyone tell me if Washington is any good? Has this guy developed anyone to their perceived potential? Is Beane that bad at evaluating DT/DE talent or is Washington unable to bring the best out of these guys? One of those has to be true

[Toyo321]

It is amazing that this guy can't get motivated.  It almost seemed if his play really tanked when Von got injured too.  I don't know if this is a coincidence but it had something to do with playing with Von on the field and off.  It was a lot easier with Von for Ed.   Just seems that he is not willing to put the extra effort in.  So much for Von being the super bowl whisperer.

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, Nephilim17 said:

When was the last time, not including Josh, that the BIlls knocked ANY first round pick out of the park? We've had some decent first rounders but not a lot and few great ones. I have to think Eric Moulds.. but maybe someone will remind of another great first rounder. 

Yup,  outside of Josh and the 1st round pick we used on Diggs, it's been awhile.  Dareus and Oliver were real disappointments.  I say spend the majority of your cap money on offense and build a competent D with hungry lower tier players.  Unless a sure thing DE drops in our lap it's full steam ahead surrounding JA with talent. 

[PBF81]

2 hours ago, Nephilim17 said:

When was the last time, not including Josh, that the BIlls knocked ANY first round pick out of the park? We've had some decent first rounders but not a lot and few great ones. I have to think Eric Moulds.. but maybe someone will remind of another great first rounder. 

 

Josh is like a grand-slam.  Not sure how you would define "knocked out of the park," but White I'd put there.  Gilmore maybe?  

 

 

48 minutes ago, Solomon Grundy said:

Isn't this an indictment of the scouting department? Aren't they supposed to interview said prospect to see what makes them tick? Speak with college coaches about their work habits? 

 

And ultimately of the GM if we want to be fully honest.  

 

 

[PBF81]

35 minutes ago, RunTheBall said:

Can anyone tell me if Washington is any good? Has this guy developed anyone to their perceived potential? Is Beane that bad at evaluating DT/DE talent or is Washington unable to bring the best out of these guys? One of those has to be true

 

Who knows, this will be his 4th season with us.  He's another Carolina dragover that coached under McD.  

 

I guess if you think he's overachieved with the talent we have on the DL, then he's good.  If he's underachieved, then I guess he's not good.  

 

If the playoffs is any indication ... 

 

 

25 minutes ago, Toyo321 said:

It is amazing that this guy can't get motivated.  It almost seemed if his play really tanked when Von got injured too.  I don't know if this is a coincidence but it had something to do with playing with Von on the field and off.  It was a lot easier with Von for Ed.   Just seems that he is not willing to put the extra effort in.  So much for Von being the super bowl whisperer.

 

The play of the D in general was notably worse with Miller out.  Our averages plummeted and against far worse offensive talent too.  Jones twice, Fields, White, and Thompson which makes the downturn worse than it actually was.  

 

 

Edited June 3, 2023 by PBF81

[KOKBILLS]

13 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

,“Just continue to play the game as much as possible from the neck up. When you have the kind of talent Ed has, you have to understand situations that could mean the difference between separating yourself from the opponent (and saying), ‘I have to able to process very, very quickly so I can win my one-on-one so I can play ahead of the play as opposed to playing with the sequence of that particular play.’

“With Ed, from an experience standpoint, we need him to play ahead as opposed to with the tempo of the play so (understanding) situations, certain nuances with certain calls and understanding where he can take advantage based on his position (is important).”

Hooboy. And wow. And yikes.

Reading between the words isn’t required to interrupt what Washington was saying, right?

Understanding situations … Process very, very quickly. … Play ahead of the play.

If it reads to you as if Washington wants Oliver to do more video study and be more committed to during-the-week preparation in order to perform better in games – that was 100% my lean once I transcribed the quote.’

 

https://buffalonews.com/sports/bills/ryan-ohalloran-to-hear-bills-tell-it-ed-olivers-final-chance-to-earn-long-term/article_cc3f0636-009a-11ee-8d28-c3fb3d9ee3df.html

 

Well...It's not an endorsement...