Spencer Brown

[newcam2012]

Spencer Brown registered a 6.5% Pressure Allowed Percentage per PFF (Among ALL OL with 14 games played). 

That was ranked the 103rd out of 113 players- NOT GOOD

 

I hope the Bills have a great plan to solidify a weak offensive line.

 

I'm not sure what they see in Brown? He's more a liability than an assest thus far. 

 

How confident are we Beane can make the necessary changes and upgrades? How confident are we in Brown? 

[GunnerBill]

As a rookie I think what they saw is a run blocking monster with a mean streak who really finishes blocks. The rawness to his pass pro should have been recognised by all. 

 

What they got as a 2nd year guy was no discernable development or refinement as a pass blocker and a regression in the run game. I wonder how much the back surgery and disrupted off season played a part but they need to make sure there is competition for Brown in camp next year. It is a big year for him. He has to solidify his spot or the Bills will be looking to replace him fully in a year from now.

[LEBills]

We need to do better than Brown. Let him be a back up swing tackle and develop a bit, he was expected to be a bit of a project coming out of the draft. Maybe if he gets some time to work on his play he can carve out a starting spot in the future.

 

I would draft Darnell Wright OT Tennessee in the first.

 

He is ready right now to play RT. Didn’t allow a sack this year while going up against some of the pas rushers in the country such as Will Anderson. Did well at the senior bowl as well. He isn’t talked about as a first rounder much but I think he winds up as one. Much cheaper than getting a good vet in FA too.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, LEBills said:

We need to do better than Brown. Let him be a back up swing tackle and develop a bit, he was expected to be a bit of a project coming out of the draft. Maybe if he gets some time to work on his play he can carve out a starting spot in the future.

 

I would draft Darnell Wright OT Tennessee in the first.

 

He is ready right now to play RT. Didn’t allow a sack this year while going up against some of the pas rushers in the country such as Will Anderson. Did well at the senior bowl as well. He isn’t talked about as a first rounder much but I think he winds up as one. Much cheaper than getting a good vet in FA too.

 

I don't think he ends up in the first round (although I noted DJ had him there) because he is a RT only. 

 

I feel like I have been here before - Jawaan Taylor, Teven Jenkins... guys who NFL teams see as right tackles only do not go day 1. 

[finn]

So that's two season-long starters on the OL who ranked among the very worst in the league, including backups. 

 

Do we really need to look further to explain why the Bills were stumbling by the end? Or how terrific other elements of the team were to makeup for the high school varsity quality of Brown and Saffold? 

 

I prefer the second frame. What other team did as well with players as base incompetent? 

[Simon]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I wonder how much the back surgery and disrupted off season played a part but they need to make sure there is competition for Brown in camp next year. It is a big year for him. He has to solidify his spot or the Bills will be looking to replace him fully in a year from now.

 

I don't see the surgery having much impact on his development; I just don't think he has the feet to play Tackle at this level.

Just like they could have last year, the Bills could save themselves a lot of trouble by spending  a high pick on an OT  and moving Brown inside to RG to see if he has a future there, because it's the only place he's ever going to be an effective starter in this league.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

I don't see the surgery having much impact on his development; I just don't think he has the feet to play Tackle at this level.

Just like they could have last year, the Bills could save themselves a lot of trouble by spending  a high pick on an OT  and moving Brown inside to RG to see if he has a future there, because it's the only place he's ever going to be an effective starter in this league.

 

Ha. Whereas I am adament he can't play guard. He doesn't have the bend at his size to play inside IMO. Low man wins in the middle. The taller guys who succeed generally have great bend and flexible hips. That isn't Spencer. So between us we might be getting to "he can't play". 

 

I'd keep him at tackle, let a vet - even Ques - genuinely compete at RT in camp. Start the best guy. If this time next year the jury is still out they need to draft a guy (not that I am not open to drafting a guy this year depending on how things fall). 

Edited February 25, 2023 by GunnerBill

[Dopey]

2 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

I don't see the surgery having much impact on his development; I just don't think he has the feet to play Tackle at this level.

Just like they could have last year, the Bills could save themselves a lot of trouble by spending  a high pick on an OT  and moving Brown inside to RG to see if he has a future there, because it's the only place he's ever going to be an effective starter in this league.

I agree with the lack of footwork. The weird part is everything I’ve read says he’s an exceptional athlete. He’s got this training camp to show better footwork. I wonder if being 6’8” will hurt him at guard. Too tall and seems too upright in his stance. 

[Simon]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

Ha. Whereas I am adament he can't play guard. He doesn't have the bend at his size to play inside IMO. Low man wins in the middle. The taller guys who succeed generally have great bend and flexible hips. That isn't Spencer. So between us we might be getting to "he can't play". 

 

That may well end up being the case, but I do think there's a chance he can succeed at Guard just because he is so damned strong. When he gets his hands on people, it's usually all over and I think he might be able to move and redirect people inside even without the best leverage. You're not going to want to run a lot of sneaks behind him and there could be the occasional issue with passing lanes because of his height, but it's his best chance for success, imo.

1 minute ago, Dopey said:

The weird part is everything I’ve read says he’s an exceptional athlete

 

I think that comes from the very good combine numbers he put up in specific, predictable agility drills he was able to repeat thousands of time in advance.

When he has to adjust on the fly because he doesn't know how defenders are going to attack him, that practiced athleticism just disappears.

[Shortchaz]

But who’s going to tell him he can’t play?

[Simon]

9 minutes ago, Shortchaz said:

But who’s going to tell him he can’t play?

 

He'll never admit it, but I think he's afraid of McDermott. He was about to get in a fight after a play out of bounds this year(I think vs Miami), then saw McDermott coming down the sideline and immediately turned around and ran back on the field.

You could practically hear him saying "Here comes Coach, oh shlt, oh shlt, oh shlt......" 

[Dopey]

6 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

He'll never admit it, but I think he's afraid of McDermott. He was about to get in a fight after a play out of bounds this year(I think vs Miami), then saw McDermott coming down the sideline and immediately turned around and ran back on the field.

You could practically hear him saying "Here comes Coach, oh shlt, oh shlt, oh shlt......" 

little man can wrestle. I always look for cauliflower ears. Run !

[OldTimer1960]

39 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

As a rookie I think what they saw is a run blocking monster with a mean streak who really finishes blocks. The rawness to his pass pro should have been recognised by all. 

 

What they got as a 2nd year guy was no discernable development or refinement as a pass blocker and a regression in the run game. I wonder how much the back surgery and disrupted off season played a part but they need to make sure there is competition for Brown in camp next year. It is a big year for him. He has to solidify his spot or the Bills will be looking to replace him fully in a year from now.

I agree that they need competition for Brown, but the fact that he missed training last offseason due to his back and missed almost all training camp, as well, is an easy explanation for no development.  Now, that isn’t to say that we know he’ll improve if healthy, but I think there is a reason to believe he might.  Still, as you said, they need another OT in case he doesn’t.  

[NewEra]

41 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't think he ends up in the first round (although I noted DJ had him there) because he is a RT only. 

 

I feel like I have been here before - Jawaan Taylor, Teven Jenkins... guys who NFL teams see as right tackles only do not go day 1. 

Or with the last pick in the first round.  Wright to KC is my prediction.  Makes too much sense. 

[Rigotz]

37 minutes ago, finn said:

So that's two season-long starters on the OL who ranked among the very worst in the league, including backups. 

 

Do we really need to look further to explain why the Bills were stumbling by the end? Or how terrific other elements of the team were to makeup for the high school varsity quality of Brown and Saffold? 

…and then you have the Bengals with 3 backup o-linemen… dominating us in the trenches and almost making it to the Super Bowl again.

 

Hmm.

[H2o]

40 minutes ago, LEBills said:

We need to do better than Brown. Let him be a back up swing tackle and develop a bit, he was expected to be a bit of a project coming out of the draft. Maybe if he gets some time to work on his play he can carve out a starting spot in the future.

 

I would draft Darnell Wright OT Tennessee in the first.

 

He is ready right now to play RT. Didn’t allow a sack this year while going up against some of the pas rushers in the country such as Will Anderson. Did well at the senior bowl as well. He isn’t talked about as a first rounder much but I think he winds up as one. Much cheaper than getting a good vet in FA too.

I think Wright will be around in the middle-late 2nd Round, unless he smashes the Combine. My favorite RT prospect in the draft. Still, Beane's comments about Brown lead me to believe there will only be a depth signing or a later round draft pick. 

[nosejob]

Besides the back issue, he did have 2 different line coaches in 2 years. I hope he gets his mojo going, I'd like to see him succeed. I just don't know if the right side is his best (natural) side. Could Dion play the right side, or look a lot worse? I can't see them signing 2 big names in FA so I'd rather they get Powers and I'd be fine with DW at 27.

[CoudyBills]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Ha. Whereas I am adament he can't play guard. He doesn't have the bend at his size to play inside IMO. Low man wins in the middle. The taller guys who succeed generally have great bend and flexible hips. That isn't Spencer. So between us we might be getting to "he can't play". 

 

I'd keep him at tackle, let a vet - even Ques - genuinely compete at RT in camp. Start the best guy. If this time next year the jury is still out they need to draft a guy (not that I am not open to drafting a guy this year depending on how things fall). 

Serious question, what does the RAS score we heard so much about measure?  His feet are slow and he has no bend.  Is he just fast for his size?  That's just not a good reason to consider someone.

[JaCrispy]

1 hour ago, newcam2012 said:

Spencer Brown registered a 6.5% Pressure Allowed Percentage per PFF (Among ALL OL with 14 games played). 

That was ranked the 103rd out of 113 players- NOT GOOD

 

I hope the Bills have a great plan to solidify a weak offensive line.

 

I'm not sure what they see in Brown? He's more a liability than an assest thus far. 

 

How confident are we Beane can make the necessary changes and upgrades? How confident are we in Brown? 

I’m not confident in either…

[warrior9]

I'm not ready to give up on him yet. Like someone else + OP pointed out:

SOLID rookie year with insane raw talent. It was to the point where when he didn't play, we panicked. 

 

Back Surgery, no off-season, second year (sophomore slump, potentially.. not using this as a 'real excuse') and then yeah, he regressed a little. 

 

This season will be huge for him and I think he knows it. 

[MrEpsYtown]

7 minutes ago, CoudyBills said:

Serious question, what does the RAS score we heard so much about measure?  His feet are slow and he has no bend.  Is he just fast for his size?  That's just not a good reason to consider someone.

 

it’s a composite score that molds together size, speed, strength as a projection at his position. 

Just to add, Spencer Brown’s 3 cone drill was better than Zay McKenzie’s at 6-8, 311. That’s a short area agility and change of direction score. 

Edited February 25, 2023 by MrEpsYtown

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, CoudyBills said:

Serious question, what does the RAS score we heard so much about measure?  His feet are slow and he has no bend.  Is he just fast for his size?  That's just not a good reason to consider someone.

 

Yea it is speed and agility in the 3 cone etc. Just not sure how important those qualities are for a tackle. His explosion score was elite and in his rookie year you saw that explosion out of his stance when moving forwards in the run game. @Simon's point - and it is a fair one, is when he is in more reactive mode in pass pro and a rusher makes a move he doesn't have that short area foot speed to adjust his angle and re-find his balance. What ends up happening is he sort of topples over.

[MrEpsYtown]

Long story short, if you were going to build a tackle in a lab, Brown is basically the perfect specimen. 
 

Doesn’t necessarily mean he is a finished product. He needs time and I think this year is make or break. 

[BillsVet]

1 hour ago, Simon said:

He'll never admit it, but I think he's afraid of McDermott. He was about to get in a fight after a play out of bounds this year(I think vs Miami), then saw McDermott coming down the sideline and immediately turned around and ran back on the field.

You could practically hear him saying "Here comes Coach, oh shlt, oh shlt, oh shlt......" 

 

Easy with the language or I'll report you to a moderator!  

 

Will say this for McD...he's established from Day 1 he's in charge and carries himself that way.  I imagine it's gotta be hard to connect/command in that environment with Millennials and Zoomers when you're a Gen X'er.  Sounds like that's there, at least with the young players.    

[BuffaloRebound]

8 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

it’s a composite score that molds together size, speed, strength as a projection at his position. 

Just to add, Spencer Brown’s 3 cone drill was better than Zay McKenzie’s at 6-8, 311. That’s a short area agility and change of direction score. 

Does it measure lateral side-to-side shuffling.  That’s where Brown seems the weakest.  You can have good straight line speed and not have good lateral quickness.  

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, Shortchaz said:

But who’s going to tell him he can’t play?

What’s his phone number ? I’d be happy to break the news to him, maybe a text, that’s how relationships break up nowadays…

[MrEpsYtown]

3 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

Does it measure lateral side-to-side shuffling.  That’s where Brown seems the weakest.  You can have good straight line speed and not have good lateral quickness.  

You get a bit of that in the shuttle and the three cone. But I don’t think that is his issue. @GunnerBill has talked about it, but Brown’s issue is using leverage and finding his center of gravity. Being as tall as he is, he really hasn’t found that sweet spot. But guys like him take awhile. Add in the fact that he switched positions in college, dealt with covid and cancelled seasons, came from a small school, and had an injury and 2 o-line coaches in 2 years? I give him a pass. I think this is the year he has to put it together. I’m not willing to move one yet because the upside is tremendous. 

[Playoffs?]

Think we can get Andy Reid to join as Bills Offensive Coordinator?

[Roundybout]

How much of this is coaching? 

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

And yet Brown is the least of the worries  on the oline.

[Codyny13]

2 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

Spencer Brown registered a 6.5% Pressure Allowed Percentage per PFF (Among ALL OL with 14 games played). 

That was ranked the 103rd out of 113 players- NOT GOOD

 

I hope the Bills have a great plan to solidify a weak offensive line.

 

I'm not sure what they see in Brown? He's more a liability than an assest thus far. 

 

How confident are we Beane can make the necessary changes and upgrades? How confident are we in Brown? 

A measurable monster out of a very small school, with no off-season due to back surgery, learning a brand new blocking scheme under Kromer. He regressed, but I also believe the Bills managed him wrong. They should’ve let Quessenberry start the majority of the first half of the season, and brought Brown along slowly, instead they just put him in there and watched him struggle. I fully expect him to be better this year. A second year under Kromer, w a healthy offseason, but I agree we need cover there. Im okay with an open competition in camp, and if Brown loses, you can further develop him.

[In Summary]

I think the Bills stay with Brown only bringing in a midland veteran for competition.

[IndyMark]

1 hour ago, OldTimer1960 said:

I agree that they need competition for Brown, but the fact that he missed training last offseason due to his back and missed almost all training camp, as well, is an easy explanation for no development.  Now, that isn’t to say that we know he’ll improve if healthy, but I think there is a reason to believe he might.  Still, as you said, they need another OT in case he doesn’t.  

 

Agreed. It is absurd to think the surgery and missing virtually all offseason training did not impact Brown's development.  On the contrary, if he had a chance to condition and train, his skills improve.  Also, a new coach whom he did not have a chance to work with, obviously can contribute to his lack of improvement this season.

 

Finally, it is important for all the experts here to utter the name "Wyatt Teller" out loud; maybe do this 2 or 3 times if you are confused why it will give you time to process the fact Beane is not making that mistake again.  Brown has not hit his ceiling, far from it. If he has a healthy offseason, his play should improve.  Again, there are no guarantees it will, but to claim an offseason surgery that limited his engagement with conditioning, training, and targeted practice did not impact Brown's development is not how things work, in real life at least. Maybe on a message board, but not in real life.

[pennstate10]

45 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

You get a bit of that in the shuttle and the three cone. But I don’t think that is his issue. @GunnerBill has talked about it, but Brown’s issue is using leverage and finding his center of gravity. Being as tall as he is, he really hasn’t found that sweet spot. But guys like him take awhile. Add in the fact that he switched positions in college, dealt with covid and cancelled seasons, came from a small school, and had an injury and 2 o-line coaches in 2 years? I give him a pass. I think this is the year he has to put it together. I’m not willing to move one yet because the upside is tremendous. 

I agree with this. He has ideal wingspan, strength, speed, and explosion. I agree that his feet seem a bit slow, but I think that can mprove with practice. 
 

Malcolm Gladwell noted in one of his books that to be expert, elite in any physical action, whether it foul shots, slap shot, or playing a piano, you had to practice that action for over 10,000 hours.   So playing tackle just 2 years in college plus the back injury means he hasn’t had enough time to perfect his OT movement skills. I think he deserves more time. But if his back injury becomes a chronic problem, that’s a different story. 

Edited February 25, 2023 by pennstate10
Correct 10000

[Success]

I'm not giving up on Brown, personally.  The injury really set him back last year.  He has shown flashes that he can be very good.

 

Obviously, bring in competition - but I think he will be our starter for years.

 

[LABILLBACKER]

4 hours ago, Simon said:

 

I don't see the surgery having much impact on his development; I just don't think he has the feet to play Tackle at this level.

Just like they could have last year, the Bills could save themselves a lot of trouble by spending  a high pick on an OT  and moving Brown inside to RG to see if he has a future there, because it's the only place he's ever going to be an effective starter in this league.

Completely agree. The back injury has nothing to do with how slow Spencer's feet are. RG is probably his only hope of staying on a roster but you don't normally want a 6-8 guy playing Guard.  Unfortunately I think they must delegate him to backup for the next 2 years.

[somnus00]

Brown has prototypical size, and is one of the best athletes in the NFL. But he had next to zero experience when he was drafted. He absolutely has the tools to be an elite RT.

 

Having said that, we need to bring in competition, and allow him to develop. Imagine if we had the patience to do the same with Wyatt Teller.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

And yet Brown is the least of the worries  on the oline.

 

 

I think center is the least of the worries with Bates in place to succeed Morse when the time comes.........but RT is probably the second least.

 

I figured they would only get about 7 years out of Dawkins at LT because he is such a sloppy bodied player........and they will be lucky to get that one more season out of him.

 

The guard spots are more important than RT and both are in flux..........hopefully they sign a good guard, get a new LT prospect in round 1 and Dawkins can be moved inside and Brown does what all the free agent RT's on the market did(evolve from terrible to solid).

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Ha. Whereas I am adament he can't play guard. He doesn't have the bend at his size to play inside IMO. Low man wins in the middle. The taller guys who succeed generally have great bend and flexible hips. That isn't Spencer. So between us we might be getting to "he can't play". 

 

I'd keep him at tackle, let a vet - even Ques - genuinely compete at RT in camp. Start the best guy. If this time next year the jury is still out they need to draft a guy (not that I am not open to drafting a guy this year depending on how things fall). 

 

 

Yeah I've used the Erik Pears example.........similar 6'8" or so frame.........not very good but a durable player at RT.......but Bills had some other young players(I think Seantrel, Kujo and Hairston) that they wanted to try at RT........so they moved him inside and he was brutal.    

 

I think the expectations people have for RT's are very odd.   There are only a handful of very good ones.    Unless they are basically a LT playing out of position like Lane Johnson they usually don't get extended.   Teams with bad RT's can still have good OL's.   So why do some people think that it makes sense to use a first round pick on one?   

[ColoradoBills]

2 hours ago, In Summary said:

I think the Bills stay with Brown only bringing in a midland veteran for competition.

 

I'm positive you are right.

As to Spencer Brown, my major concern has been his injuries.  He had an ankle bothering him about a third of the way through

the season and missed 3 games.  Then he re-injured the ankle in the NE game to end the season.

He has missed a lot of playing and practice time.  I hope that changes this season.

Edited February 25, 2023 by ColoradoBills