Spencer Brown

[TheFunPolice]

Could he be converted to a blocking TE?

 

He's pretty athletic for a man his size

[newcam2012]

3 hours ago, Codyny13 said:

A measurable monster out of a very small school, with no off-season due to back surgery, learning a brand new blocking scheme under Kromer. He regressed, but I also believe the Bills managed him wrong. They should’ve let Quessenberry start the majority of the first half of the season, and brought Brown along slowly, instead they just put him in there and watched him struggle. I fully expect him to be better this year. A second year under Kromer, w a healthy offseason, but I agree we need cover there. Im okay with an open competition in camp, and if Brown loses, you can further develop him.

I hear all this great stuff about Kromer. I've yet to see his supposed magic happen. It is possible he's getting too much credit. I thought the blocking schemes were pretty bad last year. Teams were able to use various stunts to pressure Allen. Look at the Cinci game for a clear example. Or is the oline just that bad? 

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

I really want to try and see what this guy could look like at guard. I’m not saying it will definitely work, but I want to see his physicality inside. I’d love to see if he can’t get hands on guys in tight spaces and not get exposed for his aggression. I want to see if that could possibly translate to a more physical inside run game. No guarantee it would work but I’d like to at least try it before we give up on him

[ColoradoBills]

6 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

I hear all this great stuff about Kromer. I've yet to see his supposed magic happen. It is possible he's getting too much credit. I thought the blocking schemes were pretty bad last year. Teams were able to use various stunts to pressure Allen. Look at the Cinci game for a clear example. Or is the oline just that bad? 

 

Bingo.  

 

[T master]

6 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

Spencer Brown registered a 6.5% Pressure Allowed Percentage per PFF (Among ALL OL with 14 games played). 

That was ranked the 103rd out of 113 players- NOT GOOD

 

I hope the Bills have a great plan to solidify a weak offensive line.

 

I'm not sure what they see in Brown? He's more a liability than an assest thus far. 

 

How confident are we Beane can make the necessary changes and upgrades? How confident are we in Brown? 

 

Seeing as he did pretty well in his rookie season when thrown into he fire & that he started out last year with a back injury that needed time to heal & he missed most all of the pre season with a new O line coach with a different blocking scheme i'm willing to give him another shot at a fully healthy off season & a full preseason to get prepared . 

 

But i think Beane will be looking for a few more good O linemen both in the draft & FA .

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I think center is the least of the worries with Bates in place to succeed Morse when the time comes.........but RT is probably the second least.

 

I figured they would only get about 7 years out of Dawkins at LT because he is such a sloppy bodied player........and they will be lucky to get that one more season out of him.

 

The guard spots are more important than RT and both are in flux..........hopefully they sign a good guard, get a new LT prospect in round 1 and Dawkins can be moved inside and Brown does what all the free agent RT's on the market did(evolve from terrible to solid).

 

 

I also think, for Josh, it is the position I am most willing to let him account for. Obviously I would love to have a wall in front of him and him have all day back there to throw, but if I can have his blindside locked down, and prevent early pressure (which generally comes up the middle to force him off his spot) then the odd free rusher from around right tackle he is atheltic enough to avoid and good enough to be able to still get his throw off accurately... he is deadly moving out to his right anyway. 

Edited February 25, 2023 by GunnerBill

[GreggTX]

The numbers don't lie. He's a physical freak, but his pass protection stinks and his run blocking isn't much better. Right now, he's a major liability. I suspect he could be following in Cody Ford's footsteps. I don't understand why some people are making excuses for him. I hope he turns it around, but he needs to make several BIG steps in a very short time. Upgrade RT in a major way and if Brown gets it together, fine. We don't have a single average G on the roster, so maybe he can play there. Otherwise, he's trade bait or a career backup. I think this OL is due for a major shakeup.

[newcam2012]

2 minutes ago, T master said:

 

Seeing as he did pretty well in his rookie season when thrown into he fire & that he started out last year with a back injury that needed time to heal & he missed most all of the pre season with a new O line coach with a different blocking scheme i'm willing to give him another shot at a fully healthy off season & a full preseason to get prepared . 

 

But i think Beane will be looking for a few more good O linemen both in the draft & FA .

I agree. He's too young to give up on. He has a lot of upside with some legit excuses. 

 

They do need a back up plan in case he doesn't develop. Last year he hurt the team. I don't think the team can afford that kind of play next year. 

 

 

7 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Bingo.  

 

I'm no football guru. I do know it's very difficult to win with a bad oline. 

 

Just wondering why Beane and McD can't figure it out. They have been negligent and incompetent in successfully building a good oline. 

[KOKBILLS]

6 hours ago, Simon said:

 

I don't see the surgery having much impact on his development; I just don't think he has the feet to play Tackle at this level.

Just like they could have last year, the Bills could save themselves a lot of trouble by spending  a high pick on an OT  and moving Brown inside to RG to see if he has a future there, because it's the only place he's ever going to be an effective starter in this league.

 

Spencer is an amazing athlete for a guy his size...But he's still an outlier by definition for his position. I love RAS as much as anyone. Probably too much...But I think Joe Mario has done a good job explaining Brown's limitations. Breaking down at the top of a pass rush has a lot to do with being an extremely tall human...

[wppete]

Very disappointing season for Brown. He’s be a scary TE, he’s athletic enough. 

[MrEpsYtown]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

I think the expectations people have for RT's are very odd.   There are only a handful of very good ones.    Unless they are basically a LT playing out of position like Lane Johnson they usually don't get extended.   Teams with bad RT's can still have good OL's.   So why do some people think that it makes sense to use a first round pick on one?   

Yeah it’s quite confusing. A lot of people seem to want Mike McGlinchey. He sucks. He’s just an older, more expensive version of Brown without the upside. 100% these guys don’t really make it to a second contract, some get a lot of money in free agency, but for the most part paying a RT or using a first round pick on one is insanity. 
 

Look at Atlanta, they had two first round picks a few years ago and draft RG and a RT. Someone is going to pay McGary, who was worse than Brown up until this season and Chris Lindstrom is very good and a free agent next year. The Falcons still suck. Those first round picks need to be impact picks, not plug hole picks. 

Also, PFF scores are interesting but misleading. Too many people look at that and think it says something about a guys ability. Its’s cute, but it means nothing and often times does not match the eye test. 

[K-9]

2 hours ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I'm positive you are right.

As to Spencer Brown, my major concern has been his injuries.  He had an ankle bothering him about a third of the way through

the season and missed 3 games.  Then he re-injured the ankle in the NE game to end the season.

He has missed a lot of playing and practice time.  I hope that changes this season.

He was never really healthy all season. And in the offseason, there were a couple setbacks in his re-hab after the back surgery. He was never on schedule health wise going into the season. That said, there are no excuses and this is his prove it year, regardless. 

[ColoradoBills]

24 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

I'm no football guru. I do know it's very difficult to win with a bad oline. 

 

Just wondering why Beane and McD can't figure it out. They have been negligent and incompetent in successfully building a good oline. 

 

No "guru" over here either.  I have watched football evolve for longer than I care to admit, and I see the O-Line being the Achilles heel of this team.

Last year I let a lot of smart fans on this board talk me out of putting big resources into the O-Line.  I think Beane and McDermott thought they

did the right thing too.  They were all wrong.

 

You take out Dawkins and Morse and the other 3 spots have been a revolving door of JAGs or less.  Morse, at any moment could be

out of the league, so what is really left?  They got away with a lot (and I'm hearing more of the same), Josh can make up for it.

I disagree.  Josh is getting older and a little heavier (he likes his food) and will get a little slower.  It's time, this year, to put in the effort in

the OL (even if it's a detriment to other areas) this year.

 

They need to put a core of 3-4 players who will play together for a number of years.  Period.

A late 20's FA with 2 drafted OL this year.  Draft a WR somewhere in the top 4 and get a bigger bodied RB for cheap in FA.

Plug the D the best you can and think about re-stocking some D next year.

 

I'm dying on this hill and if Beane keeps doing what he has been doing with the OL I will be disappointed.

[Yantha]

As far as I know, Spencer Brown is under contract.  But I think he will have a tough time earning a roster spot after preseason.  This O-line's problems run far deeper than Spencer Brown who is near the bottom of the "ability list".

[Ethan in Cleveland]

He's cheap and might yet get better. 

I think he makes the roster. No way he can play OG. He might actually be better at C than G. 

They need to draft OT early. 

Best case scenario Brown gets better and the new OT plays OG for a year. If Brown is serviceable at RT. Then the new OT slides into Dawkins spot in 2024. If Brown doesn't get better he is gone and they will draft OT high again in 2024

 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

5 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

No "guru" over here either.  I have watched football evolve for longer than I care to admit, and I see the O-Line being the Achilles heel of this team.

Last year I let a lot of smart fans on this board talk me out of putting big resources into the O-Line.  I think Beane and McDermott thought they

did the right thing too.  They were all wrong.

 

You take out Dawkins and Morse and the other 3 spots have been a revolving door of JAGs or less.  Morse, at any moment could be

out of the league, so what is really left?  They got away with a lot (and I'm hearing more of the same), Josh can make up for it.

I disagree.  Josh is getting older and a little heavier (he likes his food) and will get a little slower.  It's time, this year, to put in the effort in

the OL (even if it's a detriment to other areas) this year.

 

They need to put a core of 3-4 players who will play together for a number of years.  Period.

A late 20's FA with 2 drafted OL this year.  Draft a WR somewhere in the top 4 and get a bigger bodied RB for cheap in FA.

Plug the D the best you can and think about re-stocking some D next year.

 

I'm dying on this hill and if Beane keeps doing what he has been doing with the OL I will be disappointed.

To be fair to Beane, and I rarely am, the O-line looked really good the last 6 weeks of 2022. Singletary was running well and they were scoring at will. Dawkins was playing the best football of his career. McDermott took too long to start Bates. Beane matched an offer sheet for Bates that almost everyone on here agreed with. 

Most thought Q was a good depth signing.

 

Four things happened. 

1. Dawkins regressed

2. Beane didn't draft any young talent

3. Brown didn't get better and maybe got worse

4. Saffold after a couple decent games really sucked. I think the board was pretty mixed on his signing. 

[78thealltimegreat]

5 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

To be fair to Beane, and I rarely am, the O-line looked really good the last 6 weeks of 2022. Singletary was running well and they were scoring at will. Dawkins was playing the best football of his career. McDermott took too long to start Bates. Beane matched an offer sheet for Bates that almost everyone on here agreed with. 

Most thought Q was a good depth signing.

 

Four things happened. 

1. Dawkins regressed

2. Beane didn't draft any young talent

3. Brown didn't get better and maybe got worse

4. Saffold after a couple decent games really sucked. I think the board was pretty mixed on his signing. 

You aren’t wrong Bates is a really good left guard that is a mediocre right guard. He was forced to start there after the Saffold signing.

Saffold is terrible the second half of the year PFF grave him a 43 grade one of the worst grades for a starting guard in the league.

Browns injuries slowed him down but he was rough.

The Bills honestly need 2 -3 new linemen out of the off season.

[97bills]

If Melvin Ingram  isn’t lined up across from him we might be ok… Ingram ran around him like he’s feet were glued to the turf. 

[newcam2012]

31 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

No "guru" over here either.  I have watched football evolve for longer than I care to admit, and I see the O-Line being the Achilles heel of this team.

Last year I let a lot of smart fans on this board talk me out of putting big resources into the O-Line.  I think Beane and McDermott thought they

did the right thing too.  They were all wrong.

 

You take out Dawkins and Morse and the other 3 spots have been a revolving door of JAGs or less.  Morse, at any moment could be

out of the league, so what is really left?  They got away with a lot (and I'm hearing more of the same), Josh can make up for it.

I disagree.  Josh is getting older and a little heavier (he likes his food) and will get a little slower.  It's time, this year, to put in the effort in

the OL (even if it's a detriment to other areas) this year.

 

They need to put a core of 3-4 players who will play together for a number of years.  Period.

A late 20's FA with 2 drafted OL this year.  Draft a WR somewhere in the top 4 and get a bigger bodied RB for cheap in FA.

Plug the D the best you can and think about re-stocking some D next year.

 

I'm dying on this hill and if Beane keeps doing what he has been doing with the OL I will be disappointed.

Great post! Wish I could buy you your favorite beverage. 

 

I couldn't agree more with what you said. My sentiments almost word for word. 

[MrEpsYtown]

5 minutes ago, 97bills said:

If Melvin Ingram  isn’t lined up across from him we might be ok… Ingram ran around him like he’s feet were glued to the turf. 

Ingram may just be his krptonite. Everyone has a guy like that, Jerry Hughes vs HOF Joe Thomas. 

[97bills]

28 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

No "guru" over here either.  I have watched football evolve for longer than I care to admit, and I see the O-Line being the Achilles heel of this team.

Last year I let a lot of smart fans on this board talk me out of putting big resources into the O-Line.  I think Beane and McDermott thought they

did the right thing too.  They were all wrong.

 

You take out Dawkins and Morse and the other 3 spots have been a revolving door of JAGs or less.  Morse, at any moment could be

out of the league, so what is really left?  They got away with a lot (and I'm hearing more of the same), Josh can make up for it.

I disagree.  Josh is getting older and a little heavier (he likes his food) and will get a little slower.  It's time, this year, to put in the effort in

the OL (even if it's a detriment to other areas) this year.

 

They need to put a core of 3-4 players who will play together for a number of years.  Period.

A late 20's FA with 2 drafted OL this year.  Draft a WR somewhere in the top 4 and get a bigger bodied RB for cheap in FA.

Plug the D the best you can and think about re-stocking some D next year.

 

I'm dying on this hill and if Beane keeps doing what he has been doing with the OL I will be disappointed.

You nailed it. We need guys that will be together for many years.  We saw Allen take to many big hits last year. That’s got to stop…. 

[bouds]

We need another Daryl Williams.  He was so good in 2020, not coincidence that Josh did so much damage from the pocket that year.

[ColoradoBills]

20 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

You aren’t wrong Bates is a really good left guard that is a mediocre right guard. He was forced to start there after the Saffold signing.

Saffold is terrible the second half of the year PFF grave him a 43 grade one of the worst grades for a starting guard in the league.

Browns injuries slowed him down but he was rough.

The Bills honestly need 2 -3 new linemen out of the off season.

 

Agree with Bates having to go back to LG where he belongs.  The other thing about Bates is the backup C stuff.  Any time that Morse is

out (even for a few plays) moving Bates to C and bringing in some horrible depth guy is not the answer.

Draft Morse's replacement this year.

 

Need a very good RG.  It would help Brown (I see him getting another year to start).  Brown is very good at run blocking and I do

think he has a chance to improve in pass protection.  Add one good depth guy (always injuries on the OL) preferably with right side

talent.

 

That's the 3 new guys.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I think center is the least of the worries with Bates in place to succeed Morse when the time comes.........but RT is probably the second least.

 

I figured they would only get about 7 years out of Dawkins at LT because he is such a sloppy bodied player........and they will be lucky to get that one more season out of him.

 

The guard spots are more important than RT and both are in flux..........hopefully they sign a good guard, get a new LT prospect in round 1 and Dawkins can be moved inside and Brown does what all the free agent RT's on the market did(evolve from terrible to solid).

 

 

Agreed. Need to invest in two new interior line players right away. 

[JaCrispy]

6 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

Long story short, if you were going to build a tackle in a lab, Brown is basically the perfect specimen. 
 

Doesn’t necessarily mean he is a finished product. He needs time and I think this year is make or break. 

Yes but can we take that chance?

[Saint Doug]

I agree that we need better OL play, but this to me sounds like another excuse. Last offseason, it was a pass rusher. All we needed was another pass rusher to beat the Chiefs. By our performance in the playoffs, I don’t even think we fixed that. Granted, Miller was injured, but our pass rush was nonexistent. What’s next year’s scapegoat going to be?

[PBF81]

8 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

I hope the Bills have a great plan to solidify a weak offensive line.

 

Plan?  

 

Since when have we seen anything along the lines of an obvious plan?  

 

Anytime questions are asked, the answer is "Trust the Process."   A plan, that's something altogether different.  

[Charles Romes]

I was happy at least that he got a little better at staying on the field late in the year. 

[BADOLBILZ]

56 minutes ago, bouds said:

We need another Daryl Williams.  He was so good in 2020, not coincidence that Josh did so much damage from the pocket that year.

 

 

And while Daryl Williams was just average when moved to RG in 2021..........he was way better than Saffold was at LG in 2022..........and they cut Williams and paid all of the cap savings to Saffold who was then one of the worst performing starting OL in the entire league in 2022.     Yeah,  Williams overall cap figure was too high but the savings wasn't worth cutting him for RS and moving Bates off of LG.   

 

 

[1st&ten]

I hope Tommy Doyle & Ike Boettger can contribute next year & then sign 1 good free agent & draft 2 good lineman & maybe we can revamp the line.

[MrEpsYtown]

39 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

Yes but can we take that chance?

I don’t think they have much choice in the matter. They won’t be able to afford any upgrades in UFA (I don’t think there are upgrades). I also don’t think a rookie would be any more prepared than Brown. I think you let it ride this year. 

[Dr. Who]

3 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I don’t think they have much choice in the matter. They won’t be able to afford any upgrades in UFA (I don’t think there are upgrades). I also don’t think a rookie would be any more prepared than Brown. I think you let it ride this year. 

So, I'm following Badolbilz' plan, ideally you'd grab a LT at 27 and kick Dawkins inside to guard. I'd be great with that if there were a potential starting LT worth taking when our turn in the first comes round. Is there such, because the best ones are going to be selected much earlier?

[Success]

58 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

Yes but can we take that chance?

 

We almost have to, imo.  The "big" investments - in terms of being a higher round pick, or FA acquisition - should be at guard.  We can bring in competition, but it would likely be a bargain FA.  

 

I kind of see the development of Brown as being one of the keys to the Bills' success in the next 5-7 years.  We need a few younger guys to take that "next step."  Some, it's easy to see it happening - Groot, Shakir, Elam.  Others, like Epenesa and Brown, are much less certain.  

[MrEpsYtown]

8 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

So, I'm following Badolbilz' plan, ideally you'd grab a LT at 27 and kick Dawkins inside to guard. I'd be great with that if there were a potential starting LT worth taking when our turn in the first comes round. Is there such, because the best ones are going to be selected much earlier?

I like Broderick Jones, I know some people don’t. But I just really like the upside play. He is already gone in a lot of mocks, but I thibk there is a chance he falls a bit. I will add that I think he is going to have a really good combine. Paris Johnson is probably the best LT in the draft. I love Pete Skoronski, but I think he’s a guard. 

 

If Jones is there, I would consider taking him and moving Dion. I don’t think there is anyone else who could be there, who I would make that move for. 
 

I definitely like taking a round 2-4 type guy, maybe Bergeron, Mauch, or Steen, guys who can play tackle but may be guards in the NFL. But I am not sure I would be willing to go OT round 1 unless its for Jones or Johnson who are both probably way gone. 

[Success]

Side note:  there is always an early "run" on certain positions in the draft.  Sometimes WR, sometimes QB, edge rushers, etc.

 

I'm really hoping it's not O-linemen this year.  I feel like there has been a lot of chatter about how that is a top need for a lot of teams this year.  That's the one thing I do not want to see on draft day.

 

[MrEpsYtown]

2 minutes ago, Success said:

Side note:  there is always an early "run" on certain positions in the draft.  Sometimes WR, sometimes QB, edge rushers, etc.

 

I'm really hoping it's not O-linemen this year.  I feel like there has been a lot of chatter about how that is a top need for a lot of teams this year.  That's the one thing I do not want to see on draft day.

 

My very early gut tells me that all the DL, OL and WRs will be gone by pick 27. I think our only hope is that a bunch of quarterbacks go. If they don’t, our pick 27 essentially has the value of a second rounder

[Thurman#1]

Wow, thanks for all the new info, OP.

 

None of us know how much the back surgery affected him. The Bills have a much better idea, but nobody has a perfectly clear idea in cases like this. The Bills doctors have talked to the FO.

 

Nobody knows, but they have much more info than we do. They'd likely want to upgrade the swing tackle at the very least, and perhaps give him some competition.

 

Nothing much to say here.

[3rdand12]

10 hours ago, OldTimer1960 said:

I agree that they need competition for Brown, but the fact that he missed training last offseason due to his back and missed almost all training camp, as well, is an easy explanation for no development.  Now, that isn’t to say that we know he’ll improve if healthy, but I think there is a reason to believe he might.  Still, as you said, they need another OT in case he doesn’t.  

They need another OT regardless. if they get one early in the draft all the better.

 I have love for Spencer, but perhaps we can do better at Starting RT

2 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I don’t think they have much choice in the matter. They won’t be able to afford any upgrades in UFA (I don’t think there are upgrades). I also don’t think a rookie would be any more prepared than Brown. I think you let it ride this year. 

still need to draft for guard/ center. Perhaps a starting RG.
But RT , if there should be on the table

2 hours ago, Dr. Who said:

So, I'm following Badolbilz' plan, ideally you'd grab a LT at 27 and kick Dawkins inside to guard. I'd be great with that if there were a potential starting LT worth taking when our turn in the first comes round. Is there such, because the best ones are going to be selected much earlier?

Hows Dion going to feel about that ?

[PBF81]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

And while Daryl Williams was just average when moved to RG in 2021..........he was way better than Saffold was at LG in 2022..........and they cut Williams and paid all of the cap savings to Saffold who was then one of the worst performing starting OL in the entire league in 2022.     Yeah,  Williams overall cap figure was too high but the savings wasn't worth cutting him for RS and moving Bates off of LG.   

 

That's how Beane's been stocking the OL since he's been here.  

[Billy Claude]

9 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

it’s a composite score that molds together size, speed, strength as a projection at his position. 

Just to add, Spencer Brown’s 3 cone drill was better than Zay McKenzie’s at 6-8, 311. That’s a short area agility and change of direction score. 

 

 

Not saying that Spencer Brown is not a good athlete at 311 but wasn't this the year that the combine was canceled and therefore all these numbers were essentially self-reported.   As I remember, there were a lot of amazing RAS numbers that year.