Would you consider the Boogie Basham pick to be a disappointment?

[JohnNord]

2 minutes ago, T master said:

 

I went there because that's what most every one in Bills mafia says about players that aren't killing it despite where the Bills came from to where they are .

 

The Bills like every other team will have players that they miss on but i don't believe Boogie is one of them .

 

Sure he's not Von Miller but he's no Arron Maybin either if nothing else he could be a very dependable depth player so although he may not be living up to his draft status & what they thought he could be (which may be to soon to determine) but the jury is still out IMHO .

 

He is productive & isn't getting blown up every play and has some good plays he helps on so i'm good . 

Has he really been that productive though?  Out of all the DE’s on the team, he’s probably the weakest DE defending the edge and he isn’t much better as an edge rusher than any other DE on the team.  

 

 He’s also been beat out by street free agents like Shaq Lawson and a fellow second-round pick in AJ Epinesa.  
 

I think that Boogie is a clear miss as a second round pick.  Anytime your 2nd rounder can’t produce better than a street free agent or a UFA off the practice squad, the returns aren’t good.  

[JGMcD2]

1 minute ago, JohnNord said:

Has he really been that productive though?  Out of all the DE’s on the team, he’s probably the weakest DE defending the edge and he isn’t much better as an edge rusher than any other DE on the team.  

 

 He’s also been beat out by street free agents like Shaq Lawson and a fellow second-round pick in AJ Epinesa.  
 

I think that Boogie is a clear miss as a second round pick.  Anytime your 2nd rounder can’t produce better than a street free agent or a UFA off the practice squad, the returns aren’t good.  

What is a street free agent? 😂

[CountDorkula]

20 minutes ago, Seoulofstone said:

Can somebody please tell me what my expectations should be for a DE picked 61? Are we expecting Max Crosby? Or is this just a boo-hoo we didn’t get Creed thread?

 

 

How about starter making an impact every couple games. That’s the bar. 
 

currently we are well below that. 
 

 

he’s Shaq Lawson 2.0 minus the run defense. 

Edited December 30, 2022 by CountDorkula

[whorlnut]

Hated the Basham pick then and hate it now. Beanes philosophy about “always adding to the defensive line” has come at a cost to other positions and it’s starting  to catch up. 

[JohnNord]

1 minute ago, JGMcD2 said:

What is a street free agent? 😂

You’ve never heard the term “street free agent?”

[Albany,n.y.]

15 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

When was this?  A trade for Basham?  Or an opportunity to trade down?

 

https://www.audacy.com/wgr550/sports/bills/beane-reveals-bills-backed-out-of-trade-to-draft-basham-jr

 

Buffalo Bills general manager Brandon beane made two selection on Day 2 of the 2021 NFL Draft, one in the second and third round.

Wake Forest defensive end Carlos Basham Jr. was selected by the Bills in the second round, while offensive tackle Spencer Brown was selected by the Bills out of Northern Iowa.

Beane revealed that Basham Jr. was a player that the Bills held in high regard. The Bills thought so highly of Basham Jr. that if he was still on the board when the 61st overall pick rolled around, the Bills would not go through with a trade down the draft board in order to select the edge rusher.

“I kept thinking he was going to get picked,” Beane said following Day 2 of the NFL Draft. “We had a deal agreed to with an NFC club. We told them if one player was there, which was Basham Jr, that we weren’t going to do the deal. ... It would’ve moved us back into the third round and added some other picks. We felt like we were in a good spot.”

 

[JGMcD2]

Just now, JohnNord said:

You’ve never heard the term “street free agent?”

No. That’s why I’m asking… 

[CountDorkula]

1 minute ago, whorlnut said:

Hated the Basham pick then and hate it now. Beanes philosophy about “always adding to the defensive line” has come at a cost to other positions and it’s starting  to catch up. 

Is that a Beane thing or a McDermott thing?

 

id probably lean towards the 2nd guy. 

[whorlnut]

Just now, CountDorkula said:

Is that a Beane thing or a McDermott thing?

 

id probably lean towards the 2nd guy. 

Beane. He’s on record saying that he will always look at adding the defensive line. It’s a troubling stance cause I really don’t have a lot of faith they will look to add to the offense much this year. 

[HappyDays]

End of the 2nd round DE, I will give him his 3rd year before passing judgment.

 

I'm also so sick of the Creed Humphrey talk. The way people talk around here you'd think we missed out on a game changer. He's just a center. Taking a shot at a pass rusher in the 2nd round and missing out on a center is a defensible move. Ryan Bates could step in at center next year and we wouldn't miss a beat. If Basham can even get to AJ Epenesa's production next year that would arguably be MORE valuable than anything a top tier center offers.

[JohnNord]

1 minute ago, JGMcD2 said:

No. That’s why I’m asking… 

 

formal definition:

 

”A street free agent is any unsigned player, who is not on a practice squad, 53-man roster, nor otherwise employed by a football team. These players are available to teams after the main Unrestricted Free Agency, Restricted Free Agency, and Undrafted Free Agency periods are complete.

 

This term is typically reserved for those who are “on the street” during the course of the season and those who have been under contract with an NFL team at some point in their career.”

 

So John Brown or Cole Beasley are street free agents, as was Shaq Lawson who was cut in Week 17 of the 2021 season

 

 

 

[Seoulofstone]

2 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

I didn’t mention Creed Humphrey at all.  I just said that when there’s not much drop off between a UFA and a 2nd round DE which leads me to believe it was a bad draft pick.  
 

So let me restate the original question - do you think Boogie Basham was a disappointing draft pick?

 That’s fair, despite you being OP you didn’t mention Creed. For me, invoking the non-pick of Creed is an unfair metric in Boogies evaluation IMO.

 

 So Boogie has played over 20 games in the best part of two years. He’s on a rookie contract. He’s flashed occasionally but underwhelmed lacking consistency in play and production albeit as DE3. Like AJE last year -who now has 7.5 sacks. 
 

As Joe Marino says his problem is that he stayed at Wake Forest a long time and as an older prospect we should expect a more immediate development. 
 

 I would love to be MORE impressed by his development.
 

But he hadn’t washed out of the league, done anything weird. shown a lack of effort, injury issues. Personally, I’m not hating the pick, just hoping for more.

 

But it’s not an egregious misuse of pick 61.

 

 

[whorlnut]

3 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

End of the 2nd round DE, I will give him his 3rd year before passing judgment.

 

I'm also so sick of the Creed Humphrey talk. The way people talk around here you'd think we missed out on a game changer. He's just a center. Taking a shot at a pass rusher in the 2nd round and missing out on a center is a defensible move. Ryan Bates could step in at center next year and we wouldn't miss a beat. If Basham can even get to AJ Epenesa's production next year that would arguably be MORE valuable than anything a top tier center offers.

Humphrey is a pro bowl center. You really wanna say this?  Who is the best and most important piece on our line? Morse. Humphrey could have been a very good guard for a few years and then stepped in and have been our pro bowl center instead of our biggest super bowl obstacle. I’d take that over Basham 100 times out of 100. 

[Freddie's Dead]

So far, yes.  I have Boogie at a C cup.

[Epstein's Mother]

54 minutes ago, uticaclub said:

This team is nothing special outside of Allen.

 

Couldn't disagree with you more.  The Bills defense is ranked 7th in yards per game and 2nd in points allowed.

[JGMcD2]

3 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

 

formal definition:

 

”A street free agent is any unsigned player, who is not on a practice squad, 53-man roster, nor otherwise employed by a football team. These players are available to teams after the main Unrestricted Free Agency, Restricted Free Agency, and Undrafted Free Agency periods are complete.

 

This term is typically reserved for those who are “on the street” during the course of the season and those who have been under contract with an NFL team at some point in their career.”

 

So John Brown or Cole Beasley are street free agents, as was Shaq Lawson who was cut in Week 17 of the 2021 season

 

 

 

Could’ve sworn we signed him during UFA? 
 

Didn’t Phillips say “sign the contract Shaq” during his press conference? 

[SCBills]

14 minutes ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

Someone else gets it here.

 

He's made some plays this season (about time) but WAY over-drafted.

 

A game like Monday Night is when he needs to step up and bring interior pressure against good teams.  
 

I loved the Oliver pick when we took him, but I’ve been meh on him ever since.  
 

If you draft a guy in the Top 10 on the DL, he should be someone you can depend on rushing the passer in big games.  
 

Anyone here have faith Ed shows up Monday Night?

 

As for Basham … the pick looks awful at the moment.   He screamed rotational DE coming out of college and I’m not sure why you draft that in RD2. 

[Seoulofstone]

10 minutes ago, CountDorkula said:

How about starter making an impact every couple games. That’s the bar. 
 

currently we are well below that. 
 

 

he’s Shaq Lawson 2.0 minus the run defense. 

 Yes I would like to see more. Has his run defense been bad? Genuine question. 

[BuffaloBill]

1 hour ago, JohnNord said:

 

The returns of the 2nd draft pick is a rotational player who gives you the same production as a replacement level player.  

I guess there’s a chance he can improve a little bit like AJ Epinesa, but when you have street free agents like Shaq Lawson or undrafted practice squad players like Jonathan outplaying you, it’s hard to feel optimistic that a jump is coming in year 3.

 

 

You forget that Lawson was once a 1st round pick and considered a disappointment.  The Bills rotate their D-linemen so they need solid rotational guys.

 

With that said, both Basham and Epenesa have been underwhelming as second round picks.  Had they gone in the fourth o fifth to the Bills you might say they were good value, rotational picks.  

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, JohnNord said:

I re-watched the Bills/Bears game the other day and noticed a few nice reps from Kingsley Jonathan against a bad OL.  It was impressive to see a guy off the PS flash a bit in his limited opportunities.  He was activated because Boogie Basham was injured and there was basically no drop off between an undrafted DE who bounced between PS’s and a 2nd round draft pick.

 

I don't think you can make that conclusion.  As you point out, the Bears OL is not good.  We've been watching Basham all season against some very good OL.  So how can you look at a few reps against a bad OL and reach a justified conclusion that there's "basically no drop off"?

 

1 hour ago, JohnNord said:

In my opinion, the selection of Boogie Basham pick is looking very underwhelming.

 

I agree with this.  Part of it is, as you say, that the Bills in AJE and Basham drafted guys they asked to re-model themselves physically, which is always a bit of a crapshoot. 

 

I will add that part of my disappointment with Basham is the fact that Creed Humphrey was on the board when they drafted Basham.

 

On the other hand, you can't make much of a case that they signed Von Miller because Basham was a disappointment.  They weren't expecting Basham to become Von Miller.  They were expecting him to be a rotational DE. 

 

The Bills recruited and signed Von Miller because they wanted an elite, game changing DE, and they didn't want to expend the draft resources to trade up as high as they would have had to go to pick one.

[WideNine]

21 minutes ago, No_Matter_What said:

OP starts a thread about specific player and in no time this is about all other draft picks and Beane drafting in general. SMH.

 

As for Basham, he seems like a fine rotational piece to me. If he was drafted in 3rd/4th he would be a nice pick, so yes, he is a little bit disappointing. But at the time when he was picked he was often mocked higher so this is fine with me. And he still has a chance to be a liitle bit better.

 

My only problem is that I've always felt we should be drafting OL more/sooner, and this looked like a good moment to draft Creed Humphrey (not a hindsight, I don't follow college, so I only knew him by name, but he was OL who seemed like a fit and was talked about when we picked) and now we know he should've been the pick.

 

Slow day at the office for most of us and draft is always a magnet for critique with the benefit of hindsight. 

 

With the way our cap is we will need more draft picks that can contribute early on rookie deals.

 

The luxury of 4 years to start to see results from picks is just not there anymore with the skyrocketing cost of retaining premier players at key roles.

 

Of course teams stash their projects on their practice squads, and good teams (and former OCs) keep tabs on all those guys.

 

There have been some misses, and the wiggle-room for those shrink as our cap tightens.

 

All competitive teams struggle with this cycle.

 

 

 

[Mr. WEO]

I thought the rules here dictated that once we started calling players by their nicknames, we had to love them forever...

 

Let me look this up.

[Charles Romes]

The freak athlete with upside is always the better pick, especially with an organization that has a winning culture.  Basham was not seen as having a higher ceiling when drafted.  He was drafted more for having a higher floor and for years of game experience. A head scratcher. 

[SCBills]

5 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

Slow day at the office for most of us and draft is always a magnet for critique with the benefit of hindsight. 

 

With the way our cap is we will need more draft picks that can contribute early on rookie deals.

 

The luxury of 4 years to start to see results from picks is just not there anymore with the skyrocketing cost of retaining premier players at key roles.

 

Of course teams stash their projects on their practice squads, and good teams (and former OCs) keep tabs on all those guys.

 

There have been some misses, and the wiggle-room for those shrink as our cap tightens.

 

All competitive teams struggle with this cycle.

 

 

 

Which is why the Bills should be proactive and test the trade waters for guys like Oliver and Gabe this off-season. 
 

In my humble opinion…

 

I think you could get back a RD2 pick for each of them.
 

As of right now, I don’t think either makes a ton of sense to bring back after ‘23.  
 

A strong sprint to the finish line could change my mind on them, but that’s where I’m at right now. 
 

Bills will need to reload with cheap talent.  That comes via draft picks.  Why not get some more with players who aren’t essential to the team.   If they want to stay … become essential. 
 

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by SCBills

[HappyDays]

12 minutes ago, whorlnut said:

Humphrey is a pro bowl center. You really wanna say this?  Who is the best and most important piece on our line? Morse. Humphrey could have been a very good guard for a few years and then stepped in and have been our pro bowl center instead of our biggest super bowl obstacle. I’d take that over Basham 100 times out of 100. 

 

No, Dawkins is the most important piece on our line. Not even close. And people just throw out this idea that Humphrey would be as good at guard as he is at center, but he was a full time center at Oklahoma. It is not an automatic 1:1 transition. It's certainly possible he would have made a difference on our OL this year but it isn't a game changing position. Sacks and pressures change games, not guards. The biggest problem with the OL this year is they paid the wrong guy in free agency and Spencer Brown has not developed at all.

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by HappyDays

[Airseven]

Yes. Nothing against Basham. He slid in the draft for a reason and he’s performed about as projected. I was disappointed Beane took him.

[mannc]

1 hour ago, Matt_In_NH said:

If we can live in hindsight we would have HOF level players at every position.  You make the decision with the information you have at the time.

So by that logic, we can never question or criticize a team's draft picks, because...hindsight.

[Dablitzkrieg]

1 hour ago, TheBeaneBandit said:

It all goes back to passing on Creed. Right now he could be killing it at RG while Bates was at LG (we coulda skipped Saffold) patiently waiting to slide in for Mitch......😤

We could have Creed AND Wyatt

[BADOLBILZ]

6 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

Could’ve sworn we signed him during UFA? 
 

Didn’t Phillips say “sign the contract Shaq” during his press conference? 

 

 

He signed during UFA but it's fair to call him a street free agent..........he was released on January 8 and despite being able to negotiate with teams for 2+ months before UFA he was unable to secure a contract of any sort in that time.  

 

I tend to see street free agents as more of an in-season pickup but Nord is right............he was on the street for months and anyone could have signed him and they chose not to.........so the Bills picked him up for vet league minimum.

[Dr.Sack]

Basham is a decent DL rostational player. He’s more athletic than given credit great RAS, great sub 4.6 40 time. I’d argue it would be wiser to use him on 3rd down PR situations and use his speed and power to draw double teams and run LB spy stunts around his side. 

[The Firebaugh Kid]

18 minutes ago, Seoulofstone said:

 Yes I would like to see more. Has his run defense been bad? Genuine question. 

I'm no expert but I saw him getting thrown around like a rag doll against Miami.

[Seoulofstone]

Just now, The Firebaugh Kid said:

I'm no expert but I saw him getting thrown around like a rag doll against Miami.

 I missed that game. But seems like the whole team got run on that day. I will have to watch it. Thanks.

[TheyCallMeAndy]

Depends, are we giving a guy a year and a half to develop? 

[Sharky7337]

Their talent evaluation on both lines and at RB once has been abysmal until maybe the cook pick, Singletary was a good value pick but I see other teams get more impact full RB in the later rounds.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Sharky7337

[davefan66]

No, I believe he is a nice rotational piece to our Dline. 
 

We picked Groot first, and he has proven to be an excellent player. To me, that helps take a little off the expectation off Bashsam and feel he’s where he ought to be in his development.  If Groot didn’t pan out, of course it would put more pressure on Basham.

[Einstein's Dog]

32 minutes ago, whorlnut said:

Beane. He’s on record saying that he will always look at adding the defensive line. It’s a troubling stance cause I really don’t have a lot of faith they will look to add to the offense much this year. 

Troubling stance?  You're insane.  Having a dominant defensive line should be a top priority.  Above, dare I say, even the offensive line.

 

With Von we had a dominant defensive line, the best since Bruce was here.  We still have a very good defensive line and that is due to Beane realizing how important it is, adding and adjusting to it.  Boogie was an attempt at the additions/adjustments.

 

People here don't talk about this improved defensive line much because it doesn't fit the vocal minority's anti-Beane view.  Instead you see threads isolating one particular aspect to fit their mindset.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Disappointment  - Yes very much so. Like it or not second round picks need to contribute early and often. He has not.

 

Bust- Not yet. DL is a hard transition in the NFL. I think it is harder than CB. NFL Oline play is so much better than college. College DL just rush the passer and have little keys to learn. Also, Basham is too thick and too slow to be a 4-3 DE. He would be better as a 3-4 DE.  At this point its more likely than not he is a bust but he will get one more year to improve from sure.

[CountDorkula]

2 minutes ago, davefan66 said:

No, I believe he is a nice rotational piece to our Dline. 
 

We picked Groot first, and he has proven to be an excellent player. To me, that helps take a little off the expectation off Bashsam and feel he’s where he ought to be in his development.  If Groot didn’t pan out, of course it would put more pressure on Basham.

Just because one player turns out doesn’t mean the other player shouldn’t feel pressure to.  
 

It was and has always been a bad pick in terms of positional need, player, resources used on the position etc. 

[TH3]

1 hour ago, uticaclub said:

If Allen is a bust, McDermott & Beane aren't here in 2022. This team is nothing special outside of Allen.

Puhlease….McD made the playoffs with Tyrod

[CountDorkula]

3 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

Troubling stance?  You're insane.  Having a dominant defensive line should be a top priority.  Above, dare I say, even the offensive line.

 

With Von we had a dominant defensive line, the best since Bruce was here.  We still have a very good defensive line and that is due to Beane realizing how important it is, adding and adjusting to it.  Boogie was an attempt at the additions/adjustments.

 

People here don't talk about this improved defensive line much because it doesn't fit the vocal minority's anti-Beane view.  Instead you see threads isolating one particular aspect to fit their mindset.

Except the way they’re building the defense of line of quantity over quality is not sustainable. They don’t have a true difference maker on that D line. 

1 minute ago, TH3 said:

Puhlease….McD made the playoffs with Tyrod

With a miracle form Cincinnati*