Kyler Murray: How did the Cardinals fall for it?

[Mr. WEO]

10 hours ago, EasternOHBillsFan said:

Bidwill loves Steve Keim, that's why. The Bidwill family has NEVER been sharp as ownership and it explains why they have been lost as a franchise for decades. Sure they struck gold for a couple of seasons, but their track record SUCKS. Keim is the one that did the deal for Murray, and until Bidwill fires him, others like Kingsbury will get the axe and Kyler will keep getting paid.

 

 

He's awful.  He has to go.

[SoCal Deek]

3 hours ago, CorkScrewHill said:

My list:

Top QB: Mahomes

 

Franchise QBs: Josh, Burrow

Potential but need to see more: Hurts, Tua, Herbert, Watson, Jackson

 

Former franchise QBs: Rodgers, Brady

 

So three definite franchise QBs in my opinion which seems light, but I cannot say I trust any others at this point to stay up there .. though Hurts and Tua seemed best positioned.

Very good list. Where would you put guys like Wilson, Stafford and Ryan…in the former group? Or not even on the list at all? 

Edited November 28, 2022 by SoCal Deek

[Seventeen]

11 hours ago, McBean said:

They should’ve just stayed with Rosen and developed him…

 

😂😂

 

They still can ... the chosen one is available.

[Behindenemylines]

10 hours ago, KzooMike said:

Watson aside, I give the Browns major props for cutting ties with Baker and not allowing themselves to be at a crossroads near the end of a contract. They avoided what Arizona could not. 

Now let’s hope their contract with Watson proves to be even worse for them. Watching that franchise crash and burn will be entertaining.  

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

Cards and Broncos should seriously consider trading QB's. Problem is, Russ has been so bad I am sure the Broncos would do the trade in a heartbeat but the they would probably still have to send the Cardinals a first round pick in return. Which they have none left for the foreseeable future.

 

The other huge negative with Murray is that he seems at this point to be an injury prone QB. 

[nucci]

12 hours ago, NewEra said:

Imagine how bad we would regress if Diggs missed the rest of the year and got suspended for peds the first half of next year?  We’d probably trade our first rd pick for Hollywood brown.  Losing Hopkins was devastating.

 

Other massive contributing factors-

 

Kyler just doesn’t have the mentality to be an elite qb-   jmo from my couch.  

 

kingsbury is out of his league.  
 

bleh OL- bleh D

Kingsbury is really bad

[HOUSE]

This is what happens when you sell a Timex watch in  a Rolex box

[nucci]

2 minutes ago, HOUSE said:

This is what happens when you sell a Timex watch in  a Rolex box

I have 2 dollars and a casio

[Punching Bag]

12 hours ago, KzooMike said:

Russ was better than Kyler at the same age. Not as good an athlete but better QB skills. With Russ, I just don't think his style of play ages well. Not like Kyler's will either, Russ is just older. It is a bit ironic, with all this talk of Kyler not being a leader some have accused Russ of the same. Further, both QB's could have played major league baseball. 

 

Good idea for both to do it unless their NFL contract prohibits.

[Jauronimo]

13 hours ago, FireChans said:

You are 100% wrong in your assessment of Kyler Murray's physical ability.

 

His problem is between the ears.  Period.

The best assessment of Kyler's game I have ever seen was posted on twitter recently:

 

"Kyler Murray runs like a little kid who just stole his mom's iPhone."

[DCofNC]

12 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

Not trying to start an argument but if the list changes from year to year then I’d say those other guys aren’t really Franchise QBs. I believe the very definition is that they transcend the year to year up and downs. 

Agreed, upto the point of some of the clear Franchise guys are now showing their age and need to be moved out of that category.  For the sake of argument, last year I would have said:

 

Maholmes

Allen

Rodgers

Brady

Burrow

Wilson

 

In my mind, these are the only guys that have proven they are Franchise QBs.  I know some people want Herbert on the list, I think he’s in the “really good” group and still trying to cement that title.

 

This year, with age showing, in my mind, the list is:

 

Maholmes

Allen

Burrow

 

The list didn’t really change so much as guys have fallen off, but that’s primarily due to playing past their time and IDK what happened to Wilson, but he has been awful this year and trending down for the past couple years.  I was blaming his relative struggles in Seattle on injury and lack of surrounding talent, I think that’s out the window with Geno having a career year (not saying much) and Russ having a career worst year.  Again, I leave Herbert in the really good class, still not what I would consider a franchise guy yet. 
 

There’s people that will argue I’m working on Herbert and Dak and Hurts and Lamar etc, imo you will never here a fan base wondering if they should let a guy go or flat out wishing they could get rid of a real Franchise QB and said QB should be making the team better.  So Lamar misses on the fact he’s great, but limited skill set, Hurts has to prove it for more than 10 games, Herbert can’t seem to elevate a team, Dak… meh, Murray is laughable and the 3 guys you would never get anybody calling for their heads are your Franchise players. 

 

5 hours ago, CorkScrewHill said:

My list:

Top QB: Mahomes

 

Franchise QBs: Josh, Burrow

Potential but need to see more: Hurts, Tua, Herbert, Watson, Jackson

 

Former franchise QBs: Rodgers, Brady

 

So three definite franchise QBs in my opinion which seems light, but I cannot say I trust any others at this point to stay up there .. though Hurts and Tua seemed best positioned.

Just saw this and you said it better than me, agree completely.

[Rc2catch]

I don’t dislike Kyler, I think he’s taking more heat than he deserves. 
Kingsbury is more to blame imo. 
There’s a reason their offense is horrible almost every game outside the end of halves when they go into the 2 minute offense. Kyler deserves some blame but I wouldn’t write him off until I seen him play in a different system. 

[QCity]

13 hours ago, KzooMike said:

If I'm an NFL GM I have a rule in place. If my QB makes to the last year of his deal and I don't know for sure, move on. 

 

You wouldn't be an NFL GM for long. You know what happens after you move on? You lose your job. Typically GM's don't get a 2nd chance to figure it out. Signing a questionable franchise QB has more job security than rolling with the Sam Darnold's of the league.

[ProcessTruster]

14 hours ago, KzooMike said:

Sorry, but his height does hinder him. This isn't college. Just because he can run around like his head is cut off and find some throwing lanes, he does not possess the zip on the ball or the accuracy in the short and intermediate passing game.  So he makes some plays once and awhile. He's a hell of an athlete, but his deficiencies limit him.  Watching him is literally identical to watching Flutie. If he has issues between his ears outside of just lacking the skills to be a pro football QB than I don't know what to say. I wouldn't take him if you paid me.  

Love the Flutie comparison, with a side of Tyrod Taylor.   Murray a great athlete for sure, but unless you are 6 foot 2 or above and a great athlete in today's NFL you have limited upside.  Not the smartest draft pick. 

[mannc]

14 hours ago, EasternOHBillsFan said:

Bidwill loves Steve Keim, that's why. The Bidwill family has NEVER been sharp as ownership and it explains why they have been lost as a franchise for decades. Sure they struck gold for a couple of seasons, but their track record SUCKS. Keim is the one that did the deal for Murray, and until Bidwill fires him, others like Kingsbury will get the axe and Kyler will keep getting paid.

Not remembering the gold strike...

[FilthyBeast]

40 minutes ago, Rc2catch said:

I don’t dislike Kyler, I think he’s taking more heat than he deserves. 
Kingsbury is more to blame imo. 
There’s a reason their offense is horrible almost every game outside the end of halves when they go into the 2 minute offense. Kyler deserves some blame but I wouldn’t write him off until I seen him play in a different system. 

 

I think this is a fair assessment, but I also think sometimes when a guy gets a big extension that's questionable it's more about he hype and highlight reel type of plays (including the 'Hail Murray' against everyone's favorite team) that people still gush over even though it was more about pure luck and the WR making a spectacular play).

 

For me the biggest issue with Murray is still his diminutive statute on the field, and after watching a guy like Russell Wilson career come crashing down in his early 30's it makes you wonder about the long term viability of a similar player.

[mannc]

3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

He's awful.  He has to go.

Yes, he is, and he's tied at the hip to Murray.  When Kingsbury is fired, there's a good chance Murray's days are numbered too....

[Airseven]

14 hours ago, EasternOHBillsFan said:

Bidwill loves Steve Keim, that's why. The Bidwill family has NEVER been sharp as ownership and it explains why they have been lost as a franchise for decades. Sure they struck gold for a couple of seasons, but their track record SUCKS. Keim is the one that did the deal for Murray, and until Bidwill fires him, others like Kingsbury will get the axe and Kyler will keep getting paid.

You mean, Keim is the one who got a do-over after Rosen and then committed prematurely to Murray to force a “franchise QB.” He pulls off decent trades occasionally, but continues to reach for skill positions and linebackers in the draft. Cardinals OL may be even worse than the Bills OL. Yes, it seems Bidwell develops relationships that shield certain managers from real performance evaluations.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

I think for the same reason the Bengals gave Dalton the 2nd contract. 

 

They know there are limitations, but there is never a free agent QB on the market that can compete. 

 

I agree with his childish removing all Cardinals references on his Instagram, and maybe the better move would have been to Franchise Tag. 

 

Kirk Cousins has played this perfectly throughout his career. Can you start a season with Nick Mullens as your starter? Trade a bunch for Jordan Love? 

[dpberr]

Kingsbury's offense is a simple college set long figured out by the NFL defensive coordinators.  That's why the Cardinals often look like a "go long!" Saturday flag football team that relies on hero ball and one athlete being better than the other athlete (Hopkins).  

 

Kingsbury has quietly been one of the NFL's worst coaches.  

 

[Mr. WEO]

36 minutes ago, mannc said:

Yes, he is, and he's tied at the hip to Murray.  When Kingsbury is fired, there's a good chance Murray's days are numbered too....

 

How can they get rid of Murray?  He's untradeable.

[The Firebaugh Kid]

He looks like a smug little dog. Can't stand that prick. 

[H2o]

22 minutes ago, The Firebaugh Kid said:

He looks like a smug little dog. Can't stand that prick. 

[EasternOHBillsFan]

1 hour ago, mannc said:

Not remembering the gold strike...

 

Jim Hart and the Cardinals of the mid 1970s... their Super Bowl vs. the Steelers... they actually found some success and struck gold but it wasn't THAT much gold LOL

1 hour ago, Airseven said:

You mean, Keim is the one who got a do-over after Rosen and then committed prematurely to Murray to force a “franchise QB.” He pulls off decent trades occasionally, but continues to reach for skill positions and linebackers in the draft. Cardinals OL may be even worse than the Bills OL. Yes, it seems Bidwell develops relationships that shield certain managers from real performance evaluations.

 

That's what I was going for and you said it better than I did... Keim is enabled by a poor owner who comes from a family of poor ownership. Nobody wants to go to that tire fire once Kingsbury gets fired. Who wants to deal with all that Kyler nonsense with an old Hopkins etc??? Bidwill might as well sell the team because the Cardinals are going NOWHERE with Bidwill, Keim and Kyler.

Edited November 28, 2022 by EasternOHBillsFan

[The Frankish Reich]

16 hours ago, H2o said:

The same way the Broncos fell for it with Russell Wilson. 

Well, it’s a pretty different situation. Yes, the Broncos have a huge problem on their hands. But trading for Wilson and then re-signing him (and really, one couldn’t happen without the other) was a calculated risk. There aren’t many 33 year old QBs who have fallen off a cliff like Wilson. Even his subpar partial 2021 with the Seahawks produced a 100+ QB rating (I know, far from a perfect metric, but check the others and they’ll be in line with that). And this came after a remarkably consistent run in which even his bad seasons were mid-90s QB ratings. 
I can’t think of a similar sudden decline like that. Surely Peyton Manning was one - pretty much the same Peyton Manning up until his last year, then total garbage in his last season (paradoxically, the only one in which he won a Super Bowl for the Broncos). But he was already 39 and had a history of very serious injury. You just won’t find many examples like Wilson in recent NFL memory. They threw the dice on Manning; they won (and that was a much bigger risk at the time). They tried it again with Wilson; they lost. 

Edited November 28, 2022 by The Frankish Reich

[ProcessTruster]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

How can they get rid of Murray?  He's untradeable.

Oh, someone will take him for the right (ie: low) price eventually

[Mr. WEO]

8 minutes ago, ProcessTruster said:

Oh, someone will take him for the right (ie: low) price eventually

 

He just signed a 5 year deal for 230 million--190 million guaranteed.  His dead cap next year in 100 million.  You think the Cards are going to eat that? 

[mannc]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

How can they get rid of Murray?  He's untradeable.

I don't know the salary cap implications, but if a new coach comes in who thinks Murray needs to go, he'll most likely be gone, one way or another.  Murray was hand-picked by Kingsbury...a new guy would have no such allegiance.

[Mr. WEO]

Just now, mannc said:

I don't know the salary cap implications, but if a new coach comes in who thinks Murray needs to go, he'll most likely be gone, one way or another.  Murray was hand-picked by Kingsbury...a new guy would have no such allegiance.

 

well these are the very implications that make him untradeable.  Bidwell isn't going to swallow that hit--certainly not because his next HC says so. 

[mannc]

5 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

well these are the very implications that make him untradeable.  Bidwell isn't going to swallow that hit--certainly not because his next HC says so. 

Would the implications be the same if he were cut?

[Mr. WEO]

Just now, mannc said:

Would the implications be the same if he were cut?

 

 190 million is owed Murray. 

[C.Biscuit97]

He can be a good qb but he seems like the biggest douche on the planet and an awful leader. He has major napoleon vibes. But if he was in a system like Miami, he would be really dangerous. Just seems like an awful dude to be around though.

[mannc]

9 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 190 million is owed Murray. 

The new coach is going to have to live with it, then...I guess it could be worse...they could have traded a ton of high picks for him, like Denver did.  I actually think Murray--unlike Wilson--is salvageable under the right coach and the right system.  He poses unique challenges for a defense....

[Ethan in Cleveland]

20 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 190 million is owed Murray. 

I'm sure there is offset language in the contract that if he is cut and signed somewhere else, the  Cardinals are only on the hook for the balance.  Also I am not sure about this but since it is guaranteed money in the future not a signing bonus I doubt all the money is payable when he would be cut.  But I don't know about that.  Signing bonus money that is prorated over the length of the contract hits the cap all oat once as dead money if the player is cut. Not so sure if he has guaranteed future earnings.  Ie. if he has $40M guaranteed over each of the next three seasons and they cut him after this year, I can't imagine the Cardinals have  to cut him a $120M check.  They would still pay him out over that time.  Maybe I am wrong.  Also possible they negotiate some buyout.  This is new territory for the NFL.  In baseball the trading trading can agree to pay part of the salary so that the new team can get the player and not have to pay full price. In NBA it is the opposite, any trade has to have equal dollar value so you can;t just dump salary without taking something in return.

[CorkScrewHill]

6 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

Very good list. Where would you put guys like Wilson, Stafford and Ryan…in the former group? Or not even on the list at all? 

For the three you mentioned I think they are clearly past their prime now, but their respective primes i would have said Wilson would have been a franchise qb .. the other two just strike me as Kirk Cousin types. You can win with them … but they are not guys that elevated their teams as I would think a true franchise qb would

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

I'm sure there is offset language in the contract that if he is cut and signed somewhere else, the  Cardinals are only on the hook for the balance.  Also I am not sure about this but since it is guaranteed money in the future not a signing bonus I doubt all the money is payable when he would be cut.  But I don't know about that.  Signing bonus money that is prorated over the length of the contract hits the cap all oat once as dead money if the player is cut. Not so sure if he has guaranteed future earnings.  Ie. if he has $40M guaranteed over each of the next three seasons and they cut him after this year, I can't imagine the Cardinals have  to cut him a $120M check.  They would still pay him out over that time.  Maybe I am wrong.  Also possible they negotiate some buyout.  This is new territory for the NFL.  In baseball the trading trading can agree to pay part of the salary so that the new team can get the player and not have to pay full price. In NBA it is the opposite, any trade has to have equal dollar value so you can;t just dump salary without taking something in return.

 

They would have to, which is why they are stuck with him.  If they cut him for skill or cap reasons, he still gets his money.

 

"There are three separate kinds of guaranteed money

When utilized, the full guarantee of a contract consists of a combination of skill, cap, and injury guarantees, rolled into one deal.

The skill guarantee is unique in the sense that it's meant to protect a player from losing his wages if he were released. In this case, a player would receive guaranteed money if losing a roster spot was due to the declining of his skills in relation to his position. For example, a veteran place kicker who's gradually missing more and more kick attempts loses his job to a more accurate kicker, but will still be paid his full salary, after he's cut from the team.

The cap guarantee will ensure a player is paid in the event he is released for salary cap reasons. The most common situation here is when a team releases players to free up cap space, to be used in signing new players. This, like the skill guarantee, would promise a player's full salary should he be released."

 

Why would he, after signing the contract, negotiate away any money--as they are cutting him??

 

 

[msw2112]

A few comments on the Cardinals situation, all of which have been touched on at some point above in this thread:

 

• Murray is a great athlete
• Murray's size is a problem, particularly when it comes to passing from the pocket
• Murray is immature, self-absorbed, and a terrible leader
• Most of Murray's success comes on broken plays - he's small, quick, fast and elusive, so he can run around until a receiver breaks off his route and gets open, he chucks it up, and receivers make plays OR he can make big plays as a runner.  (Josh Allen does this too, but he is not small, and he can also execute plays out of the playbook)
• The Cardinals' head coach is terrible.  He was unsuccessful as a college coach.  For perspective, he was the head coach for 3 years with PATRICK MAHOMES as his QB and was 13-16 in games that Mahomes started.  He's not a good leader of men and he's just not very smart as a tactician.
• The Cardinals' GM is not very good and its ownership is clueless, having given both Kingsbury and Murray large, lucrative extensions after a season in which they started 7-0 and then imploded down the stretch and meekly bowed out in the playoffs.

As Bills fans, we've seen our share of ineptitude over the years, so I am very thankful for what and who the Bills currently have in place.

[John from Riverside]

These athletes that complain, multiple sports do tend to work out more often than not, but you just don’t know what’s going on in a players head past the athleticism

[CorkScrewHill]

After the game, when asked about what happened on the 4th and 1 interception. Murray took full responsibility as you would expect a leader to do. Oh wait no he didn't he blamed the scheme .. which is the responsibility of course of the playcaller .. Kingsbury. 

 

Not a leader!

[TheWeatherMan]

Hopefully they take the cap hit and go full rebuild.  Give me DHOP for a #2.