Was it Allen or Daboll?

[BigDingus]

It was obviously both. 

 

To succeed in the NFL, a lot has to go right & fall into the place. It was Josh. It was Daboll. It was McDermott. It was Diggs. It was Beasley. It was Jordan Palmer.

 

All these guys (and many more) were invaluable to Josh's development & growth.

 

Who were the only successful QB's from that 2018 draft? Allen & Lamar. Who were the only QB's with the same OC for most of their careers? Allen & Lamar. Granted, Greg Roman didn't take over as the actual OC until 2019 (the year Lamar won MVP), but he was already on staff as Assistant HC in 2017/2018.

 

But to this day, I still give the most credit to Allen's own work ethic & commitment. He's basically the anti-Kyler Murray. He knew he was raw, knew what his weaknesses were, knew he could improve, & dedicated all his efforts into doing so. With that being said, he deserves the most credit. 

[Mango]

One hand washes the other.
 

Allen needed Daboll early. Then Allen covered up some inadequacies in play calling later in his tenure. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

One thing is for sure teams are going to pick apart our front office and coaching staff once again. I won’t be surprised if Frazier and Dorsey get head coach jobs. I mean you have to think Dorsey’s going to be the front runner for the Carolina job.

 

[Albany,n.y.]

8 hours ago, mrags said:

Unfortunately for him, they are screwing up their draft position by winning meaningless games. They may not even make the playoffs. They have to contend with the Eagles and Cowboys in their division. 

That's very similar to the 2017 Bills when many of us thought that we were doomed to QB purgatory when we were drafting 21 and 22.  Since Joe Schoen was here when we got from 21 to 7 and got the best player in the draft, I think he will know how to move up if he has a player they really want.

[Albany,n.y.]

5 hours ago, Billz4ever said:

What? Then explain what he's doing with Dorsey.  We have an OC literally in his first year of play calling and Allen is torching defenses.  

 

Daniel Jones manages football games. Daboll is smart enough to know he doesn't have the QB in NY to do what he did in Buffalo with Josh. Josh can literally take over a game.  The two simply cannot be compared.

 

Everyone knew going into the draft that the Josh's ceiling was the stratosphere if he could mature, work on his accuracy, and make better decisions with the ball.  I attribute Josh's maturation more to Dorsey than Daboll. Dorsey played at an elite level in college and won a title, plus knew the offense inside and out.  Who else would be better to help a Rookie with raw talent like that more than Dorsey?

The rookie with raw talent had David Culley as his QB coach

 

[HappyDays]

10 hours ago, Big Turk said:

Last week on the 98 yard TD to Davis, Allen said he noticed the safety was taking a bad angle on the double team and couldn't provide help so he knew Davis would be open once he cleared the CB...

 

Yeah when people talk about the game slowing down for a QB, there's a certain point where they start noticing the miniscule details that make a huge difference. This is where I think the chips they use to create Next Gen Stats falls short. It isn't just about how far away a defender is from the receiver, it's about the position of their body and the leverage they have, not to mention whatever the QB is dealing with in the pocket at that point. The crazy thing is that Allen will only keep getting better in this area. The game will keep slowing down. And because he's the strongest baddest man on the field at all times it only takes a tiny slip-up from a defender to open up a huge opportunity for a big pass or scramble.

[Lfod]

I would think Josh Allen played a bigger role to help Daboll on his road to HC than Daboll's role in making Josh Allen into a star QB although I am sure he played his part. 

[BobbyC81]

11 hours ago, Charles Romes said:

I was one of those who thought it was all-Allen. In fact, in my view Allen carried Daboll all four years. However, looking at the astonishing reclamation going on in New York, it’s difficult to ignore the possibility that the Bills lucked out by having an all-time quarterback whisperer on staff when Allen arrived. Allen would have become great no matter who coached him, but possibly not this level of great. 

Yeah, Josh has done the work to get better.  We also can’t undervalue Josh’s work with Jordan Palmer each offseason.

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, Lfod said:

I would think Josh Allen played a bigger role to help Daboll on his road to HC than Daboll's role in making Josh Allen into a star QB although I am sure he played his part. 

 

Think that is absolutely fair. When Daboll arrived here nobody thought he was a legit HC candidate. Being an OC with Josh Allen is going to get you noticed for HC looks. But it is not as if Daboll was a total passenger from then on out. Josh Allen loved him and for good reason. QB always matters more than coaching, but there was lots of evidence on the field when Daboll was here that he knew what he was doing. In particular he was a great set up coordinator. He'd set defenses up with plays in the first half that he could come back to later and run something out of the same look when he needed a play. He is far from the only OC who ever did that of course, but he was really smart and creative the way he did it. 

 

@Beck Water made a point earlier about his communication as well. Because I am sad like that I have watched a couple of his Giants pressers and in his mid week pressers man he sounds like McDermott up there sometimes. He has had the luck to work for Belichick, Saban and McDermott and you can see he has tried to take things from them. 

[GunnerBill]

5 hours ago, Albany,n.y. said:

That's very similar to the 2017 Bills when many of us thought that we were doomed to QB purgatory when we were drafting 21 and 22.  Since Joe Schoen was here when we got from 21 to 7 and got the best player in the draft, I think he will know how to move up if he has a player they really want.

 

Yep and as we saw with Buffalo there is kudos that being competitive right away buys a regime. That credit in the bank for McDermott and Beane was big as we fumbled around in Josh's rookie year with Nate Peteman and Derek Anderson starting games, getting blown out multiple times and having an (at the time) NFL record amount of dead cap on the books while fielding an offensive line that Brandon Beane himself later described as "horrible."

 

Had they gone say 5-11 in 2017, not had to trade up to pick Josh at 7 and then gone 6-10 through that messy year in 2018 they would have gone into 2019 on the hotseat potentially and who knows how that changes the decisions they then make. Daboll and Schoen know even a 9-8 that misses the playoffs will buy them credit and time. 

 

The luxury they don't have that the Bills did by the looks of it is an upcoming QB class rich in prospective talent (even though sure some of them busted). I haven't watched the Kentucky kid yet but I am not sold that Stroud or Young are franchise changers at this stage. 

[GETTOTHE50]

ofc dorsey is going to get hired as a HC. teams are DESPERATE for any offensive spark.

 

i dont want to lose dorsey after this year, but there is joe brady who is very capable of stepping up and kicking butt.

 

but then we have to find someone else after joe brady gets hired in two years haha

[DCofNC]

16 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

 

P.S. Josh Allen "that alien unicorn" would make Nathaniel Hackett look good.

 

That’s a virtually impossible task.

[TheBrownBear]

It's actually both.  Like both of the men have said all along.

[Since1981]

10 years ago, more OC and HCs were dominated by “systems” approach.
 

Dabs and McD are clearly in the “adapt strategies to my skills available”. It seems so simple but tell that to the “systems guys”

2 hours ago, GETTOTHE50 said:

 

ofc dorsey is going to get hired as a HC

 

No. I don’t see it happening for a while. HC is Chief Operations Officer. Too big an unproven jump in COO breadth. See Nat Hackett. 

[Nihilarian]

I can't recall that I've ever heard of, or have seen a QB work as hard to perfect his craft as Josh Allen. He knew when he was being evaluated for the draft what his faults were and was working on them at that time. 

 

 

Josh was working with Jordan Palmer before the 2018 NFL draft and he continues to work with Palmer to perfect his craft every offseason since. It was more Palmer working on his mechanics.

 

How smart is Josh Allen? He scored a 37 on the NFL Wonderlic. What does that score mean?

 

https://wonderlictestpractice.com/wonderlic-test-scoring/

 

A score in the 98th percentile or above qualifies a person for Mensa membership.

 

 

Make no mistake, Brian Daboll was brilliant in certain aspects of being an NFL OC!

His game planning and setting up the passing scheme against opponents was remarkable at times.

Then again, he had some flaws as he would get overly pass happy at times, even when Josh was under extreme duress and had great difficulty in completing passes. While also sometimes ignoring the run game altogether.

 

Daboll certainly helped Josh learn how to read NFL defenses and run an NFL offense. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEfF6ceLkp8&ab_channel=NFL

 

 

I'm just so grateful that Cleveland 2x, the NY Jets passed on Josh. Not to mention Indy, Denver, NY Giants. 

 

 

 

[Einstein]

Extremely impressive to be so limited at QB and continue to win, week after week. 

 

Congrats to Daboll.

[Scott7975]

I just said in another thread… The Giants are pretenders but damn good job by Daboll getting those wins with a talentless team. 

[Einstein]

Just now, Gene1973 said:

He's got them believing that's for sure.

 

Yes.

He has also been running plenty.

 

McD made many comments last year about the offense needing to be more “balanced”. Turns out that Daboll has no problem running - he just knew we didn’t have the horses to run.

 

Plus we have a unicorn in Allen.

1 minute ago, Scott7975 said:

I just said in another thread… The Giants are pretenders but damn good job by Daboll getting those wins with a talentless team. 

 

They’ve beaten the Titans, Ravens and Packers.

 

Not elite teams, but decent teams anyway.

[Scott7975]

2 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Yes.

He has also been running plenty.

 

McD made many comments last year about the offense needing to be more “balanced”. Turns out that Daboll has no problem running - he just knew we didn’t have the horses to run.

 

Plus we have a unicorn in Allen.

 

They’ve beaten the Titans, Ravens and Packers.

 

Not elite teams, but decent teams anyway.

That team winning any games is good coaching. I don’t care who they played. 

[peterpan]

I’ve only seen a few series but Daniel Jones looked quite good.

 

wasaayyyy too often I think these coaches ruin otherwise talented players.  

[Einstein]

Just now, peterpan said:

I’ve only seen a few series but Daniel Jones looked quite good.

 

wasaayyyy too often I think these coaches ruin otherwise talented players.  

 

Not sure I agree. I think they’re winning despite Jones.

[aristocrat]

Should we have kept him over mcd? Some people are asking. Not me but some people 

[boater]

1 minute ago, aristocrat said:

Should we have kept him over mcd? Some people are asking. Not me but some people 

Who of substance is asking that?

[97bills]

8 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Yes.

He has also been running plenty.

 

McD made many comments last year about the offense needing to be more “balanced”. Turns out that Daboll has no problem running - he just knew we didn’t have the horses to run.

 

Plus we have a unicorn in Allen.

 

They’ve beaten the Titans, Ravens and Packers.

 

Not elite teams, but decent teams anyway.

Your right , you can’t downplay a good record there all NFL teams. 

[Mark Vader]

So, is Daniel Jones the future of the Giants?

[BillsShredder83]

1 minute ago, boater said:

Who of substance is asking that?

Literally nobody. Maybe some dummy on a bills fb group 🙄

[LittleSammy]

Wink Martindale also deserves a major portion of the credit for improving the Giant's defense. It is not all Daboll.

[Heavy Kevi]

Love Dabs. Good for him. He has made the Giants fun to watch again.

 

Time will tell how much sustained success he can have with DJ but I believe in Daboll as the long term answer at HC for the Giants. I still thinks he gets "too cute" sometimes with his decisions (like he did as OC here), but it's a hoot to watch.

[Einstein]

3 minutes ago, Mark Vader said:

So, is Daniel Jones the future of the Giants?

 

No, but Daboll is.

1 minute ago, LittleSammy said:

Wink Martindale also deserves a major portion of the credit for improving the Giant's defense. It is not all Daboll.

 

I was surprised when Harbaugh scapegoated him.

[Talley56]

I have to question the decision, on the last run play before the Giants kicked the field goal, to run the ball towards the sidelines.  That took it from an almost sure fire win to a very near gut-wrenching loss.  I haven't actually seen the play, just following the play-by-play online and the comments, so maybe there was some legitimate reason that I can't think of but I can't imagine that's the case.

 

That being said, wins are wins, and 6-1 is 6-1.  Good on him.

[Doc]

Getting it done mostly with defence and the running game. Jones playing smarter though. 

[BillsShredder83]

Just now, Mark Vader said:

So, is Daniel Jones the future of the Giants?

They might get stuck with him, cause they're in the nfc. They'll keep winning more often than not. Kinda sucks for them.

 

If they were in the AFC he'd be a purgatory qb, but since they're in the nfc it'll be be a few first rd exits. 

 

There any qbs that could hit the market this year? Lamar gets tagged. Who else could they snag, Jimmy G?

[UKBillFan]

The question is, if they end up low on the draft, what do they do about their QB situation?

[Big Turk]

He is winning with a lot of smoke and mirrors right now but a win is a win. Honestly goes to show how you can play minimal mistake football and good D and win against a lot of teams in the NFL.

 

They are holding on to win pretty much every game by a thread at the end of the game but it's working. Not sustainable, but for now it's working.

Edited October 23, 2022 by Big Turk

[nosejob]

Trevor couldn't hit water from a boat. I do believe Danny Dimes made me some money.

[Doc]

If both Jones and Barkley keep this piece up, the Giants will have to drop about $50 million combined to keep them around.

[Big Turk]

On 10/17/2022 at 2:45 PM, Nihilarian said:

Two words....Don "Wink" Martindale.

 

NY Giants DC is doing a good job with that defense.

 

Daboll is doing is also doing a good job with the team as HC. Assistants are a big reason why teams play well or not.

Gotta wonder if ole Wink is being missed in Baltimore? 

 

Lets not forget that his OC is Mike Kafka who was the KC Chiefs QB coach.  

 

 

 

P.S. Josh Allen "that alien unicorn" would make Nathaniel Hackett look good.

 

Yeah Giants D is the only other team in the NFL to not allow more than 23 points to anyone this year besides us. They are barely doing enough on offense and getting timely takeaways and plays on D to win.

[Einstein]

Odd that this got merged. They’re not the same topic at all. It was a Daboll congratulations thread (nothing to do with McD).

[CircleTheWagons99]

Dabol is a better HC then OC. Who knew?

[Einstein]

5 minutes ago, Doc said:

If both Jones and Barkley keep this piece up, the Giants will have to drop about $50 million combined to keep them around.

 

I don’t think they’re going to pay Jones (at least not anything of substance). He isn’t doing anything. Daboll is winning with very little from the QB position.