Allen's frequent running

[bobobonators]

I love Allen running naturally when the pocket breaks down. Hes one of the best in the NFL at that without a doubt. And you can never take that from him. However I am not a huge fan of designed run plays for Allen. The only exception I have for that is when we are near the goal line. Any other designed run for Allen outside the goal line/5yd line area shouldn’t happen in my humble opinion. Risk/reward is simply not there. Designed runs from inside the opponents 10yd line create such a potential mismatch for opponents in the red zone you almost have to do it bc to not do it would take away from what makes this offense so dangerous in the red zone. 

 

If he gets injured trying to score a TD from the 3yd line you can live with it. But if he gets injured on a designed run play from the 40/50yd line youre going to be sick to your stomach. 
 

Thats how i wish we played it with Allen going forward. He runs plenty on his own when the pocket breaks down that we don’t need to have designed run plays for him 60yds away from the opponent’s end zone

Edited September 9, 2022 by bobobonators

[White Linen]

37 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

I disagree with this "he's going to get hurt" thing from fans.  Why?  He's 6'6 and 240 lbs... and can take linebackers for a ride.

 

Why aren't you worried about Matt Milano getting hurt with all the running and thumping he does?  Josh is a LOT bigger!
 

Sure, there's a risk of injury every time Josh runs around, but I don't think it's close to what fans think it is.

 

I do support him NOT RUNNING at all against bad teams or when the score is run up. 

 

We need all we have against the big boys, though, and Josh running is the most dangerous thing we do.

 

I've been saying that for 3 years now and it's still true.

 

 

 

Milano doesn't get hurt?  I am concerned with him getting injured. 

[Nextmanup]

2 minutes ago, White Linen said:

 

Milano doesn't get hurt?  I am concerned with him getting injured. 

Not every time he runs around though!  People don't say watch out!  HE's expected to run around, hit, and hopefully avoid injury.

I'd like to see a study that analyzes 1,000 QB scrambles and determines rate of injury for quarterbacks running.

Then compare that to the standard rate of injury for quarterbacks including running and not running plays, and see if it is actually worse.  If so, by how much?

 

I bet it's about the same.

 

 

 

[VW82]

I get incorporating it in big games but Josh was still pulling it down and taking hits in the 4th when we were up by two scores. It feels a little reckless in a week one blow out.

[Thurman#1]

48 minutes ago, Success said:

Apologies if there is already a thread on this - I checked and didn't see anything. And was surprised, because I thought this would be a hot topic today.

 

I loved the game last night, and Allen is one of the best players I've seen.  That's not hyperbole. He can do literally everything out there.

 

But he's running too much.  It can't be stated more simply than that.  The Bills can have a long run with JA at QB, but only if he's on the field.  He's such a good passer - I was really hoping the new OC would change our usage of Allen somewhat, and cut down on designed runs and putting him in the thick of things up the middle.

 

I don't think it's sustainable. Thoughts?

 

 

 

It's the first game. 

 

If we see it continue, we'll know it's real. We're not there yet. It could easily have been something particular to the Rams, or even just to put a lot of runs on tape so teams have to prepare for it before they jigger the amount down for most of the rest of the season. No way to know this early.

 

One of the problems is that Allen himself seems to love it. And he has a ton of say on what the Bills do at this point.

 

I hope they adjust it down significantly. He'll always run when plays break down, it's part of why he's so very good. But I hope they really limit his planned runs. Too early to say right now.

 

This team wants a title right now. This year. That will play into how they game plan. It'll be interesting.

 

One thing I was disappointed not to see was sliding. One play in particular he got around 8 or 9 yards on a first down run (planned, if I remember right) and was met by two defenders. I was saying, "Go down, go down," and he just refused to do so, trying to smash his way to a 1st. Pick your spots at least, Josh!!

[Buffalo Boy]

https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/newton-to-have-surgery-on-partially-torn-rotator-cuff-will-miss-entire-offseason-workout-program/504676261/
 

   Listen to all the poopooing of the severity of his injury.

   The dude ran the ball because “ He was competing “ and “ He’s tough.”

    He’s also finished and has been since 2017😕

[Buffalo_Stampede]

It’s Allen. He wants that contact. Sometimes the coaches have to protect Allen from himself. Next week I bet we’ll see Allen take less hits.

 

It’s sustainable for now because he’s still a young buck but I get nervous. There was one play he ran up the guy and the safety literally ran 10 yards full speed with Allen a sitting duck. He hit him as hard as he could. Allen got up smiling. 

 

 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

48 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

I disagree with this "he's going to get hurt" thing from fans.  Why?  He's 6'6 and 240 lbs... and can take linebackers for a ride.

 

Why aren't you worried about Matt Milano getting hurt with all the running and thumping he does?  Josh is a LOT bigger!
 

Sure, there's a risk of injury every time Josh runs around, but I don't think it's close to what fans think it is.

 

I do support him NOT RUNNING at all against bad teams or when the score is run up. 

 

We need all we have against the big boys, though, and Josh running is the most dangerous thing we do.

 

I've been saying that for 3 years now and it's still true.

 

 

The injury risk on designed qb runs is actually very low. Pretty much every study on this subject concludes that qbs that carry the ball a lot don’t really have that much higher risk of injury than pocket passers…gnarly stuff happens in the pocket too with linemen falling on top of you and fingers getting broken on helmets and getting a concussion smashing your head on the turf during a sack etc. he should definitely chill out with trying to hurdle dudes for sure though lol I hope we see less of that kind of stuff 

[JGMcD2]

49 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

He took a pretty good beating yesterday.   Fortunately he was well off the ground when Donald sacked him and his neck snapped back.    I think it's going to be hard to get him to stop running if they keep him in the shotgun all the time though.   He's gotten used to not punting and now it seems like an obsession to not give up on a series.  Even late in the game when the result was no longer in doubt.    If they want to impose a limit on him they might have to do it schematically.........line him up under center,  pound the ball from traditional running sets and use play action to set up your passing game.   The style they are playing might be the most efficient way to move the ball now but they need to find a balance between moving the ball and not putting hard miles on Allen.    Can't have him running 10x every game.

Weird that this happened when he was in the pocket as a passer...

[Donuts and Doritos]

1st game in Cali w/ a lot of his family & friends in attendance I think had him pumped & audibling his own # a few times. Wasn't necessary when we were up by 21. Needs to be smarter there. IMO

[DCofNC]

What I saw was maybe MAYBE 2 runs that were called.  Allen saw opportunity and went for it a number of times.   I agree with the poster above who said take away the RPO (when you are up big). 
 

The only one I was really concerned about was him hoping on one leg in the middle of the field as the other was tied up, that could have been disastrous. 
 

Thing is, he’s so dangerous when he just plays ball and you see the absolute joy in his face when he wastes guys, it’s great.  He’s going to have to cut back as time goes on, but I don’t foresee him stopping until he actually does get banged up unfortunately.

[Beck Water]

4 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

It’s Allen. He wants that contact. Sometimes the coaches have to protect Allen from himself. Next week I bet we’ll see Allen take less hits.

 

It’s sustainable for now because he’s still a young buck but I get nervous. There was one play he ran up the guy and the safety literally ran 10 yards full speed with Allen a sitting duck. He hit him as hard as he could. Allen got up smiling.

 

Allen definitely enjoys contact.  Beane has said this "it gets him going".

 

But he 100% could have gotten down on a couple of those runs late in the 4th when the Bills had the lead.  I think he just had his adrenaline up.

 

Dorsey and McDermott and Beane gotta give him a talkin' to, and I'm sure they will.

 

As a character in a book I like said "No one tells you when you're young, that your body will add up all your bumps and bruises and send you a bill in your 30's"

[Paup 1995MVP]

59 minutes ago, Bandito said:

I don't get the use of Moss. He is not very good. 

Duke Johnson and Blackshear both have more game then Moss.  Hopefully the coaches realize that soon.  

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, billsfan1959 said:

I could be wrong, but I think a number of those runs were Allen's choice on RPOs.

 

That was Collinsworth's assessment for what it's worth.

[Mr. WEO]

tell him to stop running then.

[White Linen]

19 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

Not every time he runs around though!  People don't say watch out!  HE's expected to run around, hit, and hopefully avoid injury.

I'd like to see a study that analyzes 1,000 QB scrambles and determines rate of injury for quarterbacks running.

Then compare that to the standard rate of injury for quarterbacks including running and not running plays, and see if it is actually worse.  If so, by how much?

 

I bet it's about the same

 

 When you get the results.  You'd have to factor into your algorithm the effect on the team for an Allen injury vs Milano.  

 

I bet it's not the same. 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2022 by White Linen

[zow2]

Even though this was game #1 of a long season, the magnitude was huge.  It was like they had to prove to themselves they are a legit SB team.  And Josh running around like that was playoff-esque.  I would hope he and the coaches scale it back going forward.  Just no reason to absorb unnecessary contact.  Every sports show on TV today was talking about it.  Slide, go out of bounds, throw the ball into the ground, etc,,  I think we will see more of that going forward, and then in the playoffs he will unleash the running Josh again.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 minute ago, Beck Water said:

 

Allen definitely enjoys contact.  Beane has said this "it gets him going".

 

But he 100% could have gotten down on a couple of those runs late in the 4th when the Bills had the lead.  I think he just had his adrenaline up.

 

Dorsey and McDermott and Beane gotta give him a talkin' to, and I'm sure they will.

 

As a character in a book I like said "No one tells you when you're young, that your body will add up all your bumps and bruises and send you a bill in your 30's"

He’s a psycho. I think he’s literally the character Patrick Bateman from American Psycho.

[Bkelly]

59 minutes ago, scuba guy said:

This is also to get game tape out there to all the defensive coordinators so they have nightmares 😳 

This+++

If he doesn't run a couple, 3 ,4 times, no threat. If he does then they have to account for him on every play. Somebody is open if he ties up a defender.

[Beck Water]

57 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

He took a pretty good beating yesterday.   Fortunately he was well off the ground when Donald sacked him and his neck snapped back.  

 

That was a scary hit IMO.  But doesn't that sort of counter the complaint about Allen running too much and taking a beating, since that particular hit took place when Allen was in the pocket?

 

I actually had the thought that maybe Allen came out in the 2nd half and said "I got sacked and hit in the first half, Imma run away from that big *****a Donald now, the DBs hurt less when they hit"

[Simstim]

Well, yes, I hope he does run a fair bit less from now on.

 

But, I think the fact that he was let loose in this game served more than one purpose.

 

It helped beat the Rams, both in terms of effectiveness and keeping the D guessing.

 

But just as importantly it (re)presents the threat of him as a runner going forward. It shows Dorsey isn't protecting Allen, he's letting him loose. It will keep the rest of the league guessing, without him having to run as often, hopefully.

 

Or you know, he'll run anyway because he's Josh.

 

 

[HoofHearted]

There were only 3 or 4 designed runs all game. I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.

[Rc2catch]

A lot of people were upset during the long 3rd quarter drive with moss.. But that drive was exactly what Buffalo has been missing the last couple years. An ugly and physical drive that just sucked the life out of them and killed a ton of clock. Just because you can score in a minute doesn’t mean you should. That drive was huge in keeping buffalos defense fresh and gassing theirs out. 
Now with that said, I was 100% certain after that drive and LA gassing out singletary would own the 4th quarter. I didn’t watch any interviews but I’d love to know why they didn’t feed him. 
If Josh is risking his body up by that much you gotta pull him and protect him from himself. I’m all for a designed run here or there cause he seems to thrive after contact, but no reason he should ever take a hit when the game is in hand. 

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, Success said:

Apologies if there is already a thread on this - I checked and didn't see anything. And was surprised, because I thought this would be a hot topic today.

 

I loved the game last night, and Allen is one of the best players I've seen.  That's not hyperbole. He can do literally everything out there.

 

But he's running too much.  It can't be stated more simply than that.  The Bills can have a long run with JA at QB, but only if he's on the field.  He's such a good passer - I was really hoping the new OC would change our usage of Allen somewhat, and cut down on designed runs and putting him in the thick of things up the middle.

 

I don't think it's sustainable. Thoughts?

 

There is a LOT of context missing here.   

 

First half, he didn't run much...halftime score 10-10.  Second half, both the OC (designed runs) and Josh (improvised plays) start using his legs more...21 unanswered points.  And lets not forget, 2 of our RB's put the ball on the ground and committed 2 turnovers too this game.  

 

Ideally they don't want to run Josh more than they have to, but at the end of the day, its part of what makes Josh unstoppable, and when the team needed to make sure we were doing everything we could to win that game, Josh running got more involved.  And that is how it should be.

 

So moving forward, I don't expect to see Josh running a ton early in games if the offense is clicking without it.  But in tougher/important games, games that are close, or games the offense is on point, expect to see Josh's competitive nature come out and see him run and without caution as well as Dorsey utilize those talents to make sure we keep moving the sticks.  

[sunshynman]

1 hour ago, Buffalo Boy said:

Don’t put him in RPO situations…. Problem solved.

But maybe Allen checked into some of those!

[ColoradoBills]

20 minutes ago, Donuts and Doritos said:

1st game in Cali w/ a lot of his family & friends in attendance I think had him pumped & audibling his own # a few times. Wasn't necessary when we were up by 21. Needs to be smarter there. IMO

 

Of course it was.  Also, I bet half of Firebaugh and all his alumni teammates from Reedley JC was in attendance.

The prodigal son returned to show who he became!  Knowing how he thinks I don't blame him.

He won't be doing this in normal game situations the rest of the season.

[LEBills]

Josh needs to run sometimes, it is what makes the team basically unguardable. Though their were some turnovers involved, the Rams kept it close in the first half. Then In the second half Josh started running much more and it pulverized their defense and we scored 21 straight. I knew as soon as Josh ragdolled the safety with that massive stif arm that the Bills were going to win. It energized Josh and the rest of the Bills and really strikes fear in the defense.

 

But you are so right that they need reduce hits he is taking. That has to be a combo of Josh sliding or getting out of bounds instead of going for the extra 2-3 yards. It also means when the game is for all intents and purposes over, that anyone but a Josh runs the ball. And in honesty if he ran 5 times rather than the 10 or so he wound up with, it would have affected the defense just the same. The threat of it is the key, they don’t have to always act on it. I hope they shelve the running for the most part until the Chiefs game and then again until the playoffs. We are good enough to get the 1 seed with Josh reducing his running to just about 0 until the games really matter.

 

But in the meantime, I am in awe of Josh and everything he can do.

[Don Otreply]

I think what folk don’t fully understand is that it’s not just a super bowl win Josh is after, he wants to win every single game, and he will do what it takes to do it in a dominant fashion, just is, so get used to it.

 

Go Bills!!!

[Scott7975]

47 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

Not every time he runs around though!  People don't say watch out!  HE's expected to run around, hit, and hopefully avoid injury.

I'd like to see a study that analyzes 1,000 QB scrambles and determines rate of injury for quarterbacks running.

Then compare that to the standard rate of injury for quarterbacks including running and not running plays, and see if it is actually worse.  If so, by how much?

 

I bet it's about the same.

 

 

 

 

There was a study that showed running Qbs dont get hurt anymore than pocket QBs.  Its an older study but QBs get hurt more in the pocket because alot of hits in the pocket are blind and the QBs are planted trying to throw the football.  When running they can protect themselves more because they can see it coming.

[schoolhouserock]

8 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Why do people keep saying this?? 
 

We played in SF in 2020… don’t recall if fans were allowed in stands that game though. 

That game was actually played in Arizona due to either the San Francisco or California Covid rules of the time.

[muppy]

1 hour ago, Scott7975 said:

It’s who Allen is and it’s part of his game. Allen is going to do Allen things. Up 3 TDS though yeah, that’s a little overboard. 

THIS.  I'll break this down further. 

 

to the bolded this is fact.  Josh will be Josh come hell or high water.

 

To the red: Lord PLEASE let not our beloved #17 take unnecessary chances with his body. I need not state how important he is to the franchise. My bitterness scale would be off the charts if he takes a serious wack when our team is up 3 TD's on a qb running play . ,,,,omgosh No

 

m

Edited September 9, 2022 by muppy

[Scott7975]

54 minutes ago, Buffalo Boy said:

https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/newton-to-have-surgery-on-partially-torn-rotator-cuff-will-miss-entire-offseason-workout-program/504676261/
 

   Listen to all the poopooing of the severity of his injury.

   The dude ran the ball because “ He was competing “ and “ He’s tough.”

    He’s also finished and has been since 2017😕

 

Newton injured his shoulder not on a run but while trying to make a tackle after throwing an interception. 

 

"Newton explained he injured his shoulder after throwing an interception against the then San Diego Chargers in Week 14 of the 2016 NFL season. Newton said he messed up his AC joint on the play and "ever since then, it's just been a part of me."

[Koufax]

I get scared every time, and when his neck snapped back especially since players can be Ribs-tough and Ankle-tough but nobody can be Brain-tough. 
 

I think as worrisome as it can be, there are more bumps and bruises outside of the pocket with one defender that he sees and those aren’t a big deal with six days of rest, although great to avoid.

 

I feel that more of the real injuries (backup starts games) happen inside the pocket looking to throw and getting rolled up on, blindsided, etc. When he takes off he is more aware of the defensive player, more often will have a single defender who isn’t a lineman, and better controls contact. 

 

I would like him to be smart as he can and avoid designed interior runs, but overall think his scrambling nature gets him away from hits that Brady, Theisman, etc missed time for, or Aikman etc didn’t miss time for, and in return Josh will be sore at times (and so will the DB or LB who stepped up). Obviously best if Singletary gets 6 on a handoff and Diggs 13 and Davis 22 with a clean pocket, but he is a big strong kid who brings a lot to this team outside the pocket without a huge increase if any to meaningful injury. 

[Buffalo Boy]

1 minute ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Newton injured his shoulder not on a run but while trying to make a tackle after throwing an interception. 

 

"Newton explained he injured his shoulder after throwing an interception against the then San Diego Chargers in Week 14 of the 2016 NFL season. Newton said he messed up his AC joint on the play and "ever since then, it's just been a part of me."

    I would argue, that it was a cumulative injury with the last hit being a “ Coup de gras” of sorts.

   Josh has demonstrated the ability to Tom Brady the ball down the field. Brady is starting a game at the age of 45 this weekend.

    Josh won’t make 35 at the rate he is going physical punishment-wise.

[Scott7975]

1 minute ago, Buffalo Boy said:

    I would argue, that it was a cumulative injury with the last hit being a “ Coup de gras” of sorts.

   Josh has demonstrated the ability to Tom Brady the ball down the field. Brady is starting a game at the age of 45 this weekend.

    Josh won’t make 35 at the rate he is going physical punishment-wise.

 

You could argue that.  I cant argue against that.  Thing is, he still injured it when trying to make a tackle after an INT.  Thats when it happened.  Thats when his play declined.  

Studys have been done on this.  Running QBs dont get injured any more often than pocket passers.  Its actually more dangerous getting hit in the pocket.  Josh will be fine.  Saying that, as I said earlier, I think him running the ball up 3 TDs at the end of the game was unnecessary.

[Tenhigh]

1 hour ago, Buffalo Boy said:

https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/newton-to-have-surgery-on-partially-torn-rotator-cuff-will-miss-entire-offseason-workout-program/504676261/
 

   Listen to all the poopooing of the severity of his injury.

   The dude ran the ball because “ He was competing “ and “ He’s tough.”

    He’s also finished and has been since 2017😕

I believe he tore that rotator cuff diving for a tackle after he was picked off, not while he was scrambling or on a designed run.    

[mannc]

25 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

There was a study that showed running Qbs dont get hurt anymore than pocket QBs.  Its an older study but QBs get hurt more in the pocket because alot of hits in the pocket are blind and the QBs are planted trying to throw the football.  When running they can protect themselves more because they can see it coming.

That's probably true, but when the QB in questions run 10-15 times a game and rarely slides, I think those stats go out the window... 

[Buffalo Boy]

2 minutes ago, Tenhigh said:

I believe he tore that rotator cuff diving for a tackle after he was picked off, not while he was scrambling or on a designed run.    

     Cam beat the hell out of his body, especially in the 2015 season. Again, we are talking about an accumulation of hits. 
    Also, the news report was dripping with the “ Cam is a tough guy who can take it” BS that some on here are espousing about Josh. 
    Physical trauma is what it is. 
    My opinion, when you have a guy who can throw like Josh, you should use him as a passer. I understand he has to scramble and run SOMETIMES. 
    I don’t believe if you took away three or four of his carry’s yesterday and gave them to the backs or McKenzie on a sweep , that we don’t still win the game decisively.

    I personally don’t want to see him carry the ball, by design as much…..especially with a big lead.

[Buffalo716]

The easiest thing is to say stop running Allen you’re going to shorten his career

 

But every single player is different.. Just because Cam Newton got beat up doesn’t mean he will… Statistically the worst quarterback injuries come inside the pocket

 

Now for the actual football reason why you don’t

 

Josh Allen’s actual dual threat ability makes his entire game much better… And nearly impossible to defend

 

When he starts running in the first quarter, Defenses can’t pin their ears back… When hes pulling the read option in the first quarter you need to contain not rush 

 

That literally gives him more time in the pocket… Then the defense has to spy him… That leaves one less person in coverage or one less pass rusher

 

When Josh is running he’s tiring out the defensive line… The bills substitute their line every drive to keep players fresh.. 85% of the league doesn’t… That means Josh is wearing the line out

 

That makes our pass blocking more effective, the run blocking more effective and Josh more effective 

 

Joshs running ability also keeps teams out of heavy man… If you’re just gonna sit in press man, He’s going to take off between the tackles for a first down when your back is turned 

 

If you’re not running Josh early, And making the other team respect his ability … They will be able to pin off on him… Especially since we don’t pass block the greatest still

 

Joshes quick release and ability to extend plays Makes the pass blocking look better also 

 

Josh is a unicorn.. There’s never been a player like him.. You can’t turn a unicorn into Matt Ryan… You need to let him stay a unicorn

 

He’s personally jumping through Bobby Wagner into the end zone… You’re not taking that side out of him

[ticketssince61]

2 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

I disagree with this "he's going to get hurt" thing from fans.  Why?  He's 6'6 and 240 lbs... and can take linebackers for a ride.

 

Why aren't you worried about Matt Milano getting hurt with all the running and thumping he does?  Josh is a LOT bigger!
 

S

 

 

 

Because if Matt Milano gets injured, our season is not down the tubes