Hodgins must stay

[MasterStrategist]

54 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I agree.  Who can and cannot clear waivers and get to the PS has to be a factor in the final roster spots along with next years

depth slots chances.

 

Hodgins:

As to Hodgins I would think the coaches (and most of us fans) would agree that he deserves more snaps with the 2s in camp

and in the next 2 preseason games.  Another thing to watch for is any ST reps he may be taking in camp/games.  While ST is important

I would also just add that IF 7 WRs are kept at least one probably won't dress.  I would have no problem with Hodgins being kept for

his pass catching depth skills vs him getting lost to waivers.  He needs to stay healthy the rest of the off season!

 

Kumerow:

While I wanted to see him succeed at his primary position (WR) I have to say his WR play is not very good.  He got his chance last

year to prove that and the result was in 116 offensive snaps with 2 catches on 6 targets for 28 yards.  His WR play in the remaining

games must be taken into consideration as to whether he makes the team.

 

I say all this assuming Jones is a lock.  I refuse to believe that one year of good ST play (that is all Kumerow has had) guarantees him

a roster spot.  If the coaches think as I do, Kumerow has to prove his worth as a WR too.  These bubble players know this better than

we do so these 2 guys have to know they are probably in a fight for that spot. 

I'm looking forward to seeing who wins this challenge.

I agree with alot of this.  

 

It might be challenging to keep 7 WRs this yr, if that happens then likely Cam Lewis is cut (another player who is likely scooped up immediately).  

 

I think Jones is a lock, he's still a top ST/gunner in this league.  Along with Neal, we have the best combination.

 

Kumerow I have no problem being let go, but agree with others and when you said Hodgins needs "some" ST value.  He doesnt need to be our next gunner, or even dress, but I can't see our WR6 offering little to no ST value, that's a luxury roster spot at that point.  Good news, he seems to be receiving ST reps, hopefully he's making the most of those.  I can't see us cutting Hodgins if he stays healthy and consistent.

[NickelCity]

I don't think Austin or Duke are making this team. Crowder is a coin flip. Hodgins depends on stacking performances...but it's gonna come down to special teams...

[ColoradoBills]

2 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

Kumerow I have no problem being let go, but agree with others and when you said Hodgins needs "some" ST value.  He doesnt need to be our next gunner, or even dress, but I can't see our WR6 offering little to no ST value, that's a luxury roster spot at that point.  Good news, he seems to be receiving ST reps, hopefully he's making the most of those.  I can't see us cutting Hodgins if he stays healthy and consistent.

 

I guess my post was a bit confusing.  I agree that he can get a roster spot and not play STs.

In my post I meant they may play him some STs in the next few weeks to see how he performs.

[djp14150]

This Hodgins player is a was a receiver???

yet nobody here was a believer…

he had a good game

now who is to blame

if he doesn't make the roster

[MasterStrategist]

Just now, ColoradoBills said:

 

I guess my post was a bit confusing.  I agree that he can get a roster spot and not play STs.

In my post I meant they may play him some STs in the next few weeks to see how he performs.

That makes sense.  I agree with you, my post was likely confusing in return.  

 

I've been a big fan of Hodgins, and Speedy, both having solid camps (hoping Hodgins stays healthy and Speedy recovers soon).

 

Definitely some difficult decisions.  I'm already liking the Cook at KR and Shakir at PR idea, if that holds up to start the season.  Gives more flexibility with gameday roster, essentially 1 more player, if we don't have to dress a dedicated returner.

[ColoradoBills]

6 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

That makes sense.  I agree with you, my post was likely confusing in return.  

 

I've been a big fan of Hodgins, and Speedy, both having solid camps (hoping Hodgins stays healthy and Speedy recovers soon).

 

Definitely some difficult decisions.  I'm already liking the Cook at KR and Shakir at PR idea, if that holds up to start the season.  Gives more flexibility with gameday roster, essentially 1 more player, if we don't have to dress a dedicated returner.

 

I'm liking Hodgins too and want to see him play a lot more in the next 2 weeks.  It will test his durability (a shoulder and a jammed knee doesn't

mean he's injury prone to me) and see if he can continue to perform.

 

We fans have a lot of fun debating who we think should stay and go but I know that even the coaches don't know everything yet.

It would be awesome to hear the position coaches and coordinators debate who should stay and who is cut with McDermott and Beane.

Those last 5 slots or so have got to be interesting!

[BuffBillsForLife]

Kumerow is getting the last WR slot over Hodgins because of how much this coaching staff values special teams contributions for backups.

 

I'm just happy we're at the point where our 6th string WR is a real contributor.

 

 

[JimmyNoodles]

2 hours ago, MasterStrategist said:

That makes sense.  I agree with you, my post was likely confusing in return.  

 

I've been a big fan of Hodgins, and Speedy, both having solid camps (hoping Hodgins stays healthy and Speedy recovers soon).

 

Definitely some difficult decisions.  I'm already liking the Cook at KR and Shakir at PR idea, if that holds up to start the season.  Gives more flexibility with gameday roster, essentially 1 more player, if we don't have to dress a dedicated returner.

I could argue the flip side too if Austin is not the primary returner (as you mention) then he is the cut and Crowder stays. The coaching staff might like this better as they get a proven guy in the slot. In any scenario I think they WANT Hodgins to make it. They developed the kid and he knows the system. 

[Arkady Renko]

5 hours ago, NickelCity said:

I don't think Austin or Duke are making this team. Crowder is a coin flip. Hodgins depends on stacking performances...but it's gonna come down to special teams...

Duke Williams? He’s back in the CFL. 

[babulator]

I agree, what was the point of investing time and effort into rehabbing and holding onto him if not to keep him. I'm not sure how much more we could expect out of a guy in camp and preseason (thus far). He's exceeded expectations and has risen to the top of the competition.

 

I'm not sure what Kumerow offers @ this point (yes he plays ST's). If it's between him and Crowder, he's outshined him and he's home grown. Maybe Hodgins isn't the slot replacement but, Shakir has shown enough to back up Mackenzie in the slot and make Crowder expendable. I'm with the OP on this, he needs to stay imo.

[MJS]

On 8/14/2022 at 7:15 AM, Don Otreply said:

Sure, but mostly he needs to be a threat to score points, imo its all part of Dorsey wanting every player to be a threat to score points, so Hodgins can be a backup point scorer, it all works👍. 
 

Go Bills!!!

Being a threat to score doesn't mean a whole lot if you are sitting on the bench all game long.

 

If you are the 6th option at WR (not to mention the options also ahead of him at TE and RB), you have to play special teams. It's a must.

 

If Hodgins plays more than a handful of snaps all year on offense, it means something went terribly wrong with injuries or terribly right with starters and backups sitting.

[FireChans]

@mrags should go

[hemma]

We only had 18 first downs yesterday and he accounted for 4 of them.

 

If he can get that kind of output in the coming games against the 1st/2nd teams, he should make the team, regardless of ST usage.

[Don Otreply]

46 minutes ago, MJS said:

Being a threat to score doesn't mean a whole lot if you are sitting on the bench all game long.

 

If you are the 6th option at WR (not to mention the options also ahead of him at TE and RB), you have to play special teams. It's a must.

 

If Hodgins plays more than a handful of snaps all year on offense, it means something went terribly wrong with injuries or terribly right with starters and backups sitting.

A threat to score when on the field, kinda goes with out saying…,  

 

   WRs get nicks and dings on a regular basis, the Bills are quite likely painfully aware of this, Diggs, Beasley and Davis had injuries at points going into the post season in the last two years, it isn’t the end of the world if Hodgins gets a handful or more snaps in a couple of games, it’s why they have backs players, and he has talent and drive, what’s not to like? He can fill the role Davis used to have quite nicely if he continues to show out. 🤞 that’s why they develop lower round draft picks, for just these occasions. 
 

My glass is half full, yours should be too, 😁👍

 

Go Bills!!!

Edited August 15, 2022 by Don Otreply

[MJS]

1 minute ago, Don Otreply said:

A threat to score when on the field, kinda goes with out saying…,  

 

   WRs get nicks and dings on a regular basis, the Bills are quite likely painfully aware of this, Diggs, Beasley and Davis had injuries at points going into the post season in the last two years, it isn’t the end of the world if Hodgins gets a handful or more snaps in a couple of games, it’s why they have backs players, and he has talent and drive, what’s not to like? He can fill the role Davis used to have quite nicely if he continues to show out. 🤞 that’s why they develop lower round draft picks, for just these occasions.

 

Go Bills!!!

Even with injuries, there are still multiple receivers ahead of him that will play if Diggs and/or Davis are out. McKenzie, Crowder, and Shakir. And the Bills like Kumerow too.

 

I'm not against him making the team, but it's a lot to ask to have a 6th receiver who literally does nothing but sit on the bench. Hodgins needs to be a factor on special teams (not sure if he is or isn't, honestly).

[Don Otreply]

1 minute ago, MJS said:

Even with injuries, there are still multiple receivers ahead of him that will play if Diggs and/or Davis are out. McKenzie, Crowder, and Shakir. And the Bills like Kumerow too.

 

I'm not against him making the team, but it's a lot to ask to have a 6th receiver who literally does nothing but sit on the bench. Hodgins needs to be a factor on special teams (not sure if he is or isn't, honestly).

   I don’t think it is a lot to ask of your backups to be a threat to score points, it’s why they are there.  Who takes the spots of the guys who fill in when say two starting receivers are out for a game or two?  
 

   That’s where the lower rung guys like Hodgins can see the field, and it’s not like he is a talent free zone, the kids got some skills and know how.
 

   Folk had similar doubts about Davis as well, and he progressed quite nicely, iirc he didn’t do STs at all.    
 

  The team develops players pretty darn well imo. That and according to myth and rumor Hodgins has gotten some time with STs, we shall see I guess, 👍
 

Go Bills!!!

[Brandon]

1 hour ago, MJS said:

Being a threat to score doesn't mean a whole lot if you are sitting on the bench all game long.

 

If you are the 6th option at WR (not to mention the options also ahead of him at TE and RB), you have to play special teams. It's a must.

 

If Hodgins plays more than a handful of snaps all year on offense, it means something went terribly wrong with injuries or terribly right with starters and backups sitting.

 

To me,  it looks like this may come down more to Hodgins vs Crowder rather than Hodgins vs Kumerow.  McKenzie seems to have all but locked down the third spot and Shakir is making a strong argument for himself as the fourth guy.  Do you keep an 8th year guy who has had a disappointing first training camp with the team over a 23 year old prospect who seems to be stepping up after finally getting healthy? 

 

If Hodgins has another strong preseason game this weekend, I suspect Crowder may be the odd man out.   

Edited August 15, 2022 by Brandon

[DCofNC]

I see more from Hodgins at WR than Kumero, so I’d like to see him stick.  I’m a proponent of keeping the best player at their position if STs is close.  Also, IF and that’s a big IF, he is showing as much in camp as reported, then I’d like to see him on the field, especially in the RZ.  Having big bodies to create mismatches when the space gets tight is a really a big deal.  There’s only so much space you can “find” when things get tight.   He didn’t appear to get much separation out there, but was plucking balls with people draped on him.  That’s a valuable skill set in the RZ.   I’d love to see Diggs, Davis, Hodgins, and 2 TEs out there.  It would be very hard to defend.  Diggs creates havoc anyway, everyone else should be able to simply outsize their defenders. 

[mrags]

2 hours ago, FireChans said:

@mrags should go

I agree 

[Jauronimo]

2 hours ago, FireChans said:

@mrags should go

Toasted sandwiches!

 

[Logic]

The determining factor in whether or not Hodgins makes the roster will be his ability to effectively play special teams. 

Like it or not, that's what a WR6 needs to be able to do to be worth his roster spot.

Hodgins got special teams snaps on Saturday against the Colts. Kumerow got none.

If Hodgins shows that he can be a reasonably good special teams player, his apparent offensive superiority over Kumerow, younger age, and the fact that the Bills drafted him may all combine to secure him the last roster spot at WR.

It's all going to come down to his special teams performance the next two weeks.

[SCBills]

1 minute ago, Logic said:

The determining factor in whether or not Hodgins makes the roster will be his ability to effectively play special teams. 

Like it or not, that's what a WR6 needs to be able to do to be worth his roster spot.

Hodgins got special teams snaps on Saturday against the Colts. Kumerow got none.

If Hodgins shows that he can be a reasonably good special teams player, his apparent offensive superiority over Kumerow, younger age, and the fact that the Bills drafted him may all combine to secure him the last roster spot at WR.

It's all going to come down to his special teams performance the next two weeks.

If, and only if, the Bills are ultra-confident in McKenzie and Shakir, maybe you cut Crowder and go with Hodgins as WR5 and Kumerow as WR6. 
 

Slot WR is a big part of our Offense, so that’s a risk given Crowder is a reliably good slot - but if he’s currently WR5 (looks like he is) and you’re confident in the young guys, keep Hodgins and then you always have the option of signing OBJ during the season as well. 

[T master]

When the Bills drafted him and Davis Beane & company thought the 2 of them were great pick ups in that draft & would be ere for quite a while his injuries have kept him from developing into the WR they thought he could be but now he's healthy .

 

Given who they have in that room there will be some very hard decisions that need to be made & seeing what he did in that game if by chance he is let go there will be another team waiting in the wings to ***** him up as soon as he hits the market but i hope he might be able to be a part of this team .

 

I would rather keep him than Crowder given his age and the upside that he could bring not to mention now would be a great time to extend him to a friendly contract because of the Bills giving him the chances to get healthy & be a part of the team going forward .

 

One would think as smart as Beane has been this is at the very least a thought that has crossed his mind since the game/training camp .

[Gugny]

On 8/14/2022 at 6:18 AM, John from Riverside said:

We drafted him

we’ve been patient with him

We need to keep him

 

So should @mrags

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

10 minutes ago, SCBills said:

If, and only if, the Bills are ultra-confident in McKenzie and Shakir, maybe you cut Crowder and go with Hodgins as WR5 and Kumerow as WR6. 
 

Slot WR is a big part of our Offense, so that’s a risk given Crowder is a reliably good slot - but if he’s currently WR5 (looks like he is) and you’re confident in the young guys, keep Hodgins and then you always have the option of signing OBJ during the season as well. 

 

Just keep 7.  Gilliam as FB/TE3 and cut sweeney.  

[Don Otreply]

4 minutes ago, Logic said:

The determining factor in whether or not Hodgins makes the roster will be his ability to effectively play special teams. 

Like it or not, that's what a WR6 needs to be able to do to be worth his roster spot.

Hodgins got special teams snaps on Saturday against the Colts. Kumerow got none.

If Hodgins shows that he can be a reasonably good special teams player, his apparent offensive superiority over Kumerow, younger age, and the fact that the Bills drafted him may all combine to secure him the last roster spot at WR.

It's all going to come down to his special teams performance the next two weeks.

I for one hope he makes it, he certainly appears to be a better wide out than JK, and as we all know, having quality backup receivers with good hands is crucial, especially when making post season runs.

[Logic]

58 minutes ago, SCBills said:

If, and only if, the Bills are ultra-confident in McKenzie and Shakir, maybe you cut Crowder and go with Hodgins as WR5 and Kumerow as WR6. 
 

Slot WR is a big part of our Offense, so that’s a risk given Crowder is a reliably good slot - but if he’s currently WR5 (looks like he is) and you’re confident in the young guys, keep Hodgins and then you always have the option of signing OBJ during the season as well. 

Agreed.

Hodgins' particular size and skillset aren't really matched by anyone else on the roster. Maybe they end up feeling like Crowder's skillset is redundant with McKenzie and Shakir, whereas Hodgins offers more unique abilities. Hodgins also seems to have the ability to both play outside AND be a big slot, whereas Crowder is pretty much slot only.

Maybe it's not really Hodgins vs Kumerow. Maybe it's Hodgins vs Crowder.

On the other hand, special teams locks Matakevitch, Neal, and Taiwan Jones didn't play on Saturday. Kumerow did. So Kumerow is likely not a lock.

[Simon Says]

He apparently played a number of special teams snaps, but I didn't notice.

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, SCBills said:

If, and only if, the Bills are ultra-confident in McKenzie and Shakir, maybe you cut Crowder and go with Hodgins as WR5 and Kumerow as WR6. 
 

Slot WR is a big part of our Offense, so that’s a risk given Crowder is a reliably good slot - but if he’s currently WR5 (looks like he is) and you’re confident in the young guys, keep Hodgins and then you always have the option of signing OBJ during the season as well. 

 

Hodgins has 2 paths to the final 53...one in his control, and one not in his control.

1. In his control:  ST Impact - Bottom line, if you are going to be a WR 6 or 7, you have to be reliable on ST.  There is just no other reason to keep them given those guys will not likely see but a handful of snaps, if any, at WR during the season.  No one outside the top 5 WR on the depth chart have even amassed a 100 yards on the season the past 2 years. 
2. Out of his control:  Crowder doesn't make the final 53 - If Crowder ends up being a surprise cut/trade, that would open up a spot for a 5th WR, which at that point, your ability as a receiver plays a bigger role in final roster decisions because you will likely see the field some, and could play more if any injuries happen during the season.  So ST impact doesn't weigh quite as heavy as it would for a WR6 or WR7 would.
   1. I guess one could argue part of this is in Hodgins control, and that is he needs to play well enough they have the confidence to keep him as the 5th WR over someone more accomplished like Crowder.  But ultimately, I think its more on Crowder on whether or not he starts to make a case he must be on the final 53 over these next 2 weeks after falling behind while dealing with minor injuries.  

Thats really it for Hodgins, and he is trending in the right direction right now and I think gone from an after thought to at the very least a real tough decision.  The one thing about Hodgins is we have never seen him with the ones though and he has struggled with injuries.  Crowder is still 28 and shown he can produce as a starter even though his whole career he was saddled with bad QB's in bad offenses on losing teams.  So I still think Crowder has a solid shot to remain on the 53, so Hodgins probably needs to demonstrate he can be reliable on ST IMHO to make this team.  

[Airseven]

Hodgins can excel as the gameday healthy scratch.

[ColoradoBills]

7 minutes ago, Airseven said:

Hodgins can excel as the gameday healthy scratch.

 

If you mean that Hodgins could make the team because of his WR skills this year and not need to have ST skills because he will be

a healthy scratch to start the season, I totally agree.

 

I'll add that there is only a need for 6 or 7 "core" (4 way) special teamers.  Guys that are in addition to K, P, LS, PR, KR's.

Not every depth guy HAS to contribute to special teams.

 

Then again, your post could have been sarcastic!  LOL.

[Beast]

5 hours ago, hemma said:

We only had 18 first downs yesterday and he accounted for 4 of them.

 

If he can get that kind of output in the coming games against the 1st/2nd teams, he should make the team, regardless of ST usage.

 

What about his two prior years of not being able to stay healthy? AND, can he play on ST? That should be a consideration when making a decision.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Beast

[hemma]

39 minutes ago, Beast said:

 

What about his two prior years of not being able to stay healthy? AND, can he play on ST? That should be a consideration when making a decision.

One year of not healthy. He was on ps most of last year.

 Jeesh - start holding ‘healthy’ over players’ heads and 1/3 of the current players in the NFL will need to pack.

 

As for special teams, let’s see what happens.  

Let’s also see what happens with dropped balls, receptions, yardage and fumbles.

 

[Don Otreply]

49 minutes ago, Beast said:

 

What about his two prior years of not being able to stay healthy? AND, can he play on ST? That should be a consideration when making a decision.

He can certainly plays STs, he has been taking snaps in practice, the injury thing is getting over blown a bit, name me ten players that haven’t been injured during their time playing football…, see, it’s all of them…, 

[Brandon]

1 hour ago, Beast said:

 

What about his two prior years of not being able to stay healthy? AND, can he play on ST? That should be a consideration when making a decision.

 

Unless it becomes a specific recurring injury,  or unless the team doctors think he's made of glass or something,  I'd write it off as bad luck.  His potential special teams contribution is an important factor,  but I don't think it's all-important,  dependent upon the coaching staff's view of his potential on offense and keeping in mind that he's on a 6th round contract for the next two seasons. 

[Beast]

44 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

He can certainly plays STs, he has been taking snaps in practice, the injury thing is getting over blown a bit, name me ten players that haven’t been injured during their time playing football…, see, it’s all of them…, 

 

At the same time, name me ten lower round picks that have missed their first two seasons due to i jury and then bounced back.

 

As I said earlier, I'm pulling for the kid but injury history and ST play certainly will be a deciding factor in this. 

 

The old saying of the best ability is availabilty rings true in the NFL.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Beast

[Rochesterfan]

3 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Hodgins has 2 paths to the final 53...one in his control, and one not in his control.

1. In his control:  ST Impact - Bottom line, if you are going to be a WR 6 or 7, you have to be reliable on ST.  There is just no other reason to keep them given those guys will not likely see but a handful of snaps, if any, at WR during the season.  No one outside the top 5 WR on the depth chart have even amassed a 100 yards on the season the past 2 years. 
2. Out of his control:  Crowder doesn't make the final 53 - If Crowder ends up being a surprise cut/trade, that would open up a spot for a 5th WR, which at that point, your ability as a receiver plays a bigger role in final roster decisions because you will likely see the field some, and could play more if any injuries happen during the season.  So ST impact doesn't weigh quite as heavy as it would for a WR6 or WR7 would.
   1. I guess one could argue part of this is in Hodgins control, and that is he needs to play well enough they have the confidence to keep him as the 5th WR over someone more accomplished like Crowder.  But ultimately, I think its more on Crowder on whether or not he starts to make a case he must be on the final 53 over these next 2 weeks after falling behind while dealing with minor injuries.  

Thats really it for Hodgins, and he is trending in the right direction right now and I think gone from an after thought to at the very least a real tough decision.  The one thing about Hodgins is we have never seen him with the ones though and he has struggled with injuries.  Crowder is still 28 and shown he can produce as a starter even though his whole career he was saddled with bad QB's in bad offenses on losing teams.  So I still think Crowder has a solid shot to remain on the 53, so Hodgins probably needs to demonstrate he can be reliable on ST IMHO to make this team.  

 

Although I agree - I think there is a 3rd and 4th way I believe for him to make the roster and it is still out of his control.

 

3) If the Bills decide Cam Lewis is potentially to good a prospect to risk cutting.  They had Lewis playing Gunner on kicks and if he replaces Kumerow on ST - that could open a spot up for Crowder and Hodgins (where depending on the team 1 of them is inactive to allow Lewis to be active).  
 

I could see the Bills go heavy at CB for ST and go lighter at WR with less responsibility on special teams - maybe Shakir with returns.

 

4) Gilliam being TE3/FB might also be a route to either Blackshear or Hodgins on this team if they feel either Sweeney or Howard just does not stack up to the talent level of others.  If they go light at TE you may have the extra spot to keep Kumerow and Hodgins and have 7 WRs like last year.

 

Your 2 routes are most common, but heavy at CB for special teams or light at TE due to lack of talent could open a spot for Hodgins on the roster, but most likely not a weekly dress position.

 

 

[Don Otreply]

29 minutes ago, Beast said:

 

At the same time, name me ten lower round picks that have missed their first two seasons due to i jury and then bounced back.

 

As I said earlier, I'm pulling for the kid but injury history and ST play certainly will be a deciding factor in this. 

 

The old saying of the best ability is availabilty rings true in the NFL.

All the points folk are making in this thread are valid, to include what you posted, it’s is gonna be a narrow window for him to make the 53, especially if they go with 6 WRs, if the go with 7 he has a slightly bigger window. It would suck if we attempt to practice squad the guy and he get poached by another team going through the waiver process, we shall see. 

[SoCal Deek]

There’s a human side to this too. After Crowders volleyball set to a defender the other afternoon I’m guessing the Bills go with the guy they already know (Hodgins) over a Jets cast off. Now, it’s only one game but Crowder needs to step it up or say goodbye.

[YoloinOhio]