JA v. Big Ben

[RyanC883]

At a event in Pgh is here.  While he is big and athletic looking, JA looks bigger and watching their first few years is a better QB.  

 

All that said, Ben has 2 rings.  JA should get at least that or we have a coaching/GM failure.  

 

Anyone think Ben is better?  

[ControllerOfPlanetX]

Tom Donahoe. 

[machine gun kelly]

Ben in his prime which is a long time ago was an unorthodox QB in that he would just shed LB’s and Safeties off of him, but not on his best day is he as good and dynamic as JA17.

 

Ben deserves the HOF, and won’t be surprised if he even gets it in the first bout, but will be timely after some of the other 1st ballot guys in years prior like Brees.  He’s a slam dunk.

 

 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

Bens got 2 rings and is a HOF worthy QB. If Josh has that type of career I will be very happy.

[Mikie2times]

I don't consent to this thread, Ben doesn't care. 

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

Ben is a first Ballot HOF player, 2 SB rings, top 9 in all time passing yards and TD's. If Allen even comes close to that or better then we win either way but the comparison now isn't even close until there is more of last years Allen. My only slight fear is Ben had an outstanding run game in Bettis his younger years and then Leveon Bell to take the load off, if Allen continues to take punishment year in and year out he's not going to last as long as ben did imo.

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

Ben is a rapist and JA is not.

 

Any other questions ?

[Cruiserplayer]

“Big Ben > Duck > JA17” PFF

[Rigby]

I hope he does get to his level, means we have won at least 2 SB's.

[mykidsdad]

I'm going to put on the tinfoil. For whatever reason, maybe unconscious bias, Steelers seem to have gotten breaks, like other "dynasty" type teams with a good reputation. If we can flip the script and become the team that gets the benefit of the doubt and has the refs looking out for our stars for the success of the league, we could win a lot with JA. If the script doesn't flip with enough of the brass, refs, and the like, we may struggle to get the one ring. You need to be good and "lucky" too. I feel that Ben's SB against the Hawks was TOTALLY a product of the bias the Steelers had at the time. Can we get there? It looks like it, because Josh is that good and the league seems to love him. If that trend continues our "luck" will only increase, and JA17 will win more than Ben.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

21 minutes ago, mykidsdad said:

I'm going to put on the tinfoil. For whatever reason, maybe unconscious bias, Steelers seem to have gotten breaks, like other "dynasty" type teams with a good reputation. If we can flip the script and become the team that gets the benefit of the doubt and has the refs looking out for our stars for the success of the league, we could win a lot with JA. If the script doesn't flip with enough of the brass, refs, and the like, we may struggle to get the one ring. You need to be good and "lucky" too. I feel that Ben's SB against the Hawks was TOTALLY a product of the bias the Steelers had at the time. Can we get there? It looks like it, because Josh is that good and the league seems to love him. If that trend continues our "luck" will only increase, and JA17 will win more than Ben.

the biggest breaks the Steelers got was not having to face the patriots en route to their two Super Bowls. Steelers/Big Ben would have had zero SB’s if they had to play the patriots in the playoffs. 

[strive_for_five_guy]

2 hours ago, RyanC883 said:

At a event in Pgh is here.  While he is big and athletic looking, JA looks bigger and watching their first few years is a better QB.  

 

All that said, Ben has 2 rings.  JA should get at least that or we have a coaching/GM failure.  

 

Anyone think Ben is better?  

Small world, saw him at the same event. I’d say Josh is already playing at a level near or even above Ben’s prime.  If Josh can continue to play like he has for another 5-10 years and gets a SB ring to his credit, I don’t think it will even be a debate who had the better career.

[Buffalo Boy]

21 minutes ago, mykidsdad said:

I'm going to put on the tinfoil. For whatever reason, maybe unconscious bias, Steelers seem to have gotten breaks, like other "dynasty" type teams with a good reputation. If we can flip the script and become the team that gets the benefit of the doubt and has the refs looking out for our stars for the success of the league, we could win a lot with JA. If the script doesn't flip with enough of the brass, refs, and the like, we may struggle to get the one ring. You need to be good and "lucky" too. I feel that Ben's SB against the Hawks was TOTALLY a product of the bias the Steelers had at the time. Can we get there? It looks like it, because Josh is that good and the league seems to love him. If that trend continues our "luck" will only increase, and JA17 will win more than Ben.

They took a TD away from the Hawks. I forgot about that. 
Hopefully you are right and the powers that be decide it’s our time for a little extra love.

JA needs to get some National advertising contracts. He’s got the looks and the attitude and is squeaky clean. Not sure why he hasn’t yet but he has what it takes to be the face of this league.

[wppete]

I think Big Ben played QB a few years ago weighing in around 270+. Josh is a way better QB and athlete. 

[ToGoGo]

20 minutes ago, Buffalo Boy said:

They took a TD away from the Hawks. I forgot about that. 
Hopefully you are right and the powers that be decide it’s our time for a little extra love.

JA needs to get some National advertising contracts. He’s got the looks and the attitude and is squeaky clean. Not sure why he hasn’t yet but he has what it takes to be the face of this league.

 

Small school. Small market team. Bad narrative coming out. 

 

But we're getting there. I'm sure Allen is going to be on national commercials this year. 

 

Then the "luck" will come. 

[Augie]

The Steelers have rings. Ben happened to be a Steeler. He is NOT Josh Allen. In so many ways. 

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, BuffaloBillsGospel2014 said:

Ben is a first Ballot HOF player, 2 SB rings, top 9 in all time passing yards and TD's. If Allen even comes close to that or better then we win either way but the comparison now isn't even close until there is more of last years Allen. My only slight fear is Ben had an outstanding run game in Bettis his younger years and then Leveon Bell to take the load off, if Allen continues to take punishment year in and year out he's not going to last as long as ben did imo.

The comparison for their career isn’t even close….but Josh Allen at his best is on a different level than Ben at his best imo.

 

Josh is in the discussion for best player in the world. Ben was never that.  Never even close tbh 

[Stank_Nasty]

2 hours ago, mykidsdad said:

I'm going to put on the tinfoil. For whatever reason, maybe unconscious bias, Steelers seem to have gotten breaks, like other "dynasty" type teams with a good reputation. If we can flip the script and become the team that gets the benefit of the doubt and has the refs looking out for our stars for the success of the league, we could win a lot with JA. If the script doesn't flip with enough of the brass, refs, and the like, we may struggle to get the one ring. You need to be good and "lucky" too. I feel that Ben's SB against the Hawks was TOTALLY a product of the bias the Steelers had at the time. Can we get there? It looks like it, because Josh is that good and the league seems to love him. If that trend continues our "luck" will only increase, and JA17 will win more than Ben.

Read an article a couple years back about the worst officiated superbowls and the refs screw job on the Seahawks came in at #1. If I’m not mistaken Ben had the LOWEST Super Bowl qb rating to ever actually still win the game. He was awful. 
 

his 2nd title year he threw for a mere 3100 yds and 17 td in a full season… but there’s no denying how clutch he was in that title game. 

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

The comparison for their career isn’t even close….but Josh Allen at his best is on a different level than Ben at his best imo.

 

Josh is in the discussion for best player in the world. Ben was never that.  Never even close tbh 

I got into this discussion just the other day with a “stiller” fan. Big Ben was never, at any point in his career, regarded anywhere near the top 3. Usually the debate was efen if he was near top 5. And he definitely never finished 2nd in the MVP running. 
 

I think it’s obvious that the Big Ben that was winning titles actually wasn’t nearly as good as the Big Ben that had nearly no playoff success from 2009 into the late 2010’s. During those title years he was riding coattails of an elite line/run game and a generational defense. when it was time to be clutch he always stepped up. But IMO it was that d that afforded him that luxury… IMO he was a much better qb in the years after those super bowls and yet he never got back. 
 

Definitely a HOF qb but I think if Allen can even just get one ring, it won’t be much of a debate who was better. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Stank_Nasty

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

2 hours ago, Rigby said:

I hope he does get to his level, means we have won at least 2 SB's.

 

Most would say Dan Marino >>> Big Ben. But Ben has the rings. There is a possibility that Allen is >>>> Big Ben, yet has no rings like Marino. Look at Aaron Rodgers. Dude is maybe the greatest QB of all time to date outside of Brady yet only has one ring? And even worst, just one super bowl appearance???

 

I have faith Allen will get us over the hump eventually. But stupid things happen, so you never know. Last years 13 second debacle being exhibit A. 

[Thurman#1]

4 hours ago, RyanC883 said:

 

All that said, Ben has 2 rings.  JA should get at least that or we have a coaching/GM failure.  

 

 

 

Deciding who is at fault for a problem which has not yet happened and may never happen, that's what you're doing here.

 

And doing that is an absolute guarantee of baseless, poor thinking.

 

As for your other point, Josh has yet to show for sure he's better than Ben, but yeah, it looks that way right now.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

4 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Deciding who is at fault for a problem which has not yet happened and may never happen, that's what you're doing here.

 

 

 

I'd say last years 13 second debacle was at least step one in a long series of mishaps that would lead a player to become the next Dan Marino or Aaron Rodgers. Guys who are the arguably the best of their generation and top 5 all time but under performed in the category of postseason success. 

[Thurman#1]

Just now, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

I'd say last years 13 second debacle was at least step one in a long series of mishaps that would lead a player to become the next Dan Marino or Aaron Rodgers. Guys who are the arguably the best of their generation and top 5 all time but under performed in the category of postseason success. 

 

 

Saying something is step one in a long series of mishaps that has not yet happened ... again, simply poor thinking. Unless you can see the future with 100% clarity, of course. If you've got a working crystal ball, I take it all back.

 

It could be step one in a long series of successive Super Bowl wins for all we know. Probably somewhere in the middle, but it's all guesswork until it happens.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

2 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Saying something is step one in a long series of mishaps that has not yet happened ... again, simply poor thinking. Unless you can see the future with 100% clarity, of course. If you've got a working crystal ball, I take it all back.

 

It could be step one in a long series of successive Super Bowl wins for all we know. Probably somewhere in the middle, but it's all guesswork until it happens.

 

Well yeah nobody knows the future but we like to speculate and guess.

 

My main point is there are multiple QB's that are considered to be on a much higher tier than Big Ben that have half the postseason accolades as Big Ben. So far Allen has run into a buzz saw of misfortune in the postseason all while personally having the highest career postseason passer rating of all time.

[MJS]

3 hours ago, mykidsdad said:

I'm going to put on the tinfoil. For whatever reason, maybe unconscious bias, Steelers seem to have gotten breaks, like other "dynasty" type teams with a good reputation. If we can flip the script and become the team that gets the benefit of the doubt and has the refs looking out for our stars for the success of the league, we could win a lot with JA. If the script doesn't flip with enough of the brass, refs, and the like, we may struggle to get the one ring. You need to be good and "lucky" too. I feel that Ben's SB against the Hawks was TOTALLY a product of the bias the Steelers had at the time. Can we get there? It looks like it, because Josh is that good and the league seems to love him. If that trend continues our "luck" will only increase, and JA17 will win more than Ben.

I feel like Josh already has been getting favorable calls with roughing the passer and late hits. I don't remember it as much last year, but definitely in 2019 and 2020 he was already getting some of those protection calls, many of them borderline. Good to see.

 

I'll bet you'll see that this year. Allen is the NFL darling right now. His face is everywhere. Everyone is talking about him. The Bills are really popular. Allen is really popular. The Pegulas have a new stadium in the works. They are certainly an NFL brand worth protecting. Nothing but good vibes from the Bills, and the NFL would be smart to harness that and protect the superstars on this team like Allen, Diggs, Miller, and White.

[Buffalo716]

Allen WILL BE the face of the NFL

 

[Thurman#1]

3 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Well yeah nobody knows the future but we like to speculate and guess.

 

My main point is there are multiple QB's that are considered to be on a much higher tier than Big Ben that have half the postseason accolades as Big Ben. So far Allen has run into a buzz saw of misfortune in the postseason all while personally having the highest career postseason passer rating of all time.

 

 

Yup, there are multiple high-level QBs that have had horrible starts to post-season careers and then turned in terrific records. Remember Elway? Hell, Big Ben himself lost his first AFC championship.

 

Nothing wrong with speculating and guessing.

 

Plenty wrong with trying to already assign blame for catastrophes that have not yet happened and may never. It's poor thinking.

 

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Thurman#1

[LABILLBACKER]

I think if McDermott can clean up his playoff defense and avoid any more brain farts, Josh is more than capable of matching Ben's 2 rings and gold jacket. 

[Big Blitz]

A few things about Ben the QB who I always liked.  

 

Getting 2 rings during the peak Brady/Patriots run - it was more then just the Steelers having a great defense.  The only AFC QB to win 2 during the Brady run - edit - Manning at the end who actually did ride an elite D to ring #2.  

 

Ben is one of the 5-7 best QBs of the last 20 years.  Never had a losing season.  Always felt he was clutch most of the time.  If he was beat when the Steelers were great it was probably by New England.  

 

 

Brady 

Manning

Rodgers

Brees

Farve 

Warner

Ben

 

 

Allen is on track to be a top 3 of his era/generation maybe number 1.  Just needs a SB.  

Edited July 15, 2022 by Big Blitz

[billybrew1]

5 hours ago, mykidsdad said:

I'm going to put on the tinfoil. For whatever reason, maybe unconscious bias, Steelers seem to have gotten breaks, like other "dynasty" type teams with a good reputation. If we can flip the script and become the team that gets the benefit of the doubt and has the refs looking out for our stars for the success of the league, we could win a lot with JA. If the script doesn't flip with enough of the brass, refs, and the like, we may struggle to get the one ring. You need to be good and "lucky" too. I feel that Ben's SB against the Hawks was TOTALLY a product of the bias the Steelers had at the time. Can we get there? It looks like it, because Josh is that good and the league seems to love him. If that trend continues our "luck" will only increase, and JA17 will win more than Ben.

I don’t call them the stealers for nuthin’

[ToGoGo]

9 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yup, there are multiple high-level QBs that have had horrible starts to post-season careers and then turned in terrific records. Remember Elway? Hell, Big Ben himself lost his first AFC championship.

 

Nothing wrong with speculating and guessing.

 

Plenty wrong with trying to already assign blame for catastrophes that have not yet happened and may never. It's poor thinking.

 

 

 

Exactly. Visualize success FIRST, then you're mentally set to let it happen. Visualize failure, even after previous failure, and you will be stuck in a cycle. It was the final lesson that the 90's Bills could never solve. 

 

There's a certain subset of posters that can't say anything positive without bringing up 13 seconds or throwing a pot shot at coaching. That's the attitude that must be avoided at all costs by the franchise if they want to take the next step. The only thing we should be thinking about is raising the trophy, not lashing ourselves for past mistakes. 

[eball]

1 minute ago, ToGoGo said:

 

There's a certain subset of posters that can't say anything positive without bringing up 13 seconds or throwing a pot shot at coaching

 

Preach.  It's mind boggling to me.  This team is literally on the cusp of greatness, led by a QB who may wind up as one of the best of all time.

 

 

[DrDawkinstein]

I'm just trying to get ONE super bowl victory before I start demanding 2+.

[stinky finger]

Ben is a HOFer for sure.....but...he's nowhere NEAR the athlete Josh is.

 

And man - that 06 SB....Ben was a train wreck

[RyanC883]

13 hours ago, Buffalo Boy said:

They took a TD away from the Hawks. I forgot about that. 
Hopefully you are right and the powers that be decide it’s our time for a little extra love.

JA needs to get some National advertising contracts. He’s got the looks and the attitude and is squeaky clean. Not sure why he hasn’t yet but he has what it takes to be the face of this league.

 

JA definitely needs a national TV ad contract.  He's got the charisma, on-field success, etc. for it.  

37 minutes ago, ToGoGo said:

 

Exactly. Visualize success FIRST, then you're mentally set to let it happen. Visualize failure, even after previous failure, and you will be stuck in a cycle. It was the final lesson that the 90's Bills could never solve. 

 

There's a certain subset of posters that can't say anything positive without bringing up 13 seconds or throwing a pot shot at coaching. That's the attitude that must be avoided at all costs by the franchise if they want to take the next step. The only thing we should be thinking about is raising the trophy, not lashing ourselves for past mistakes. 

 

I totally agree we should be thinking about raising the trophy, and multiple times.  My point is, there are some fans who are happy with "almost."  We have a dynasty level QB.  And I was Not happy when we drafted him.  Man, am I glad to be wrong.  His two playoff games last season were historic.  On an individual level he is the best QB in the league right now.  LETS GO!!!!!

[KGun12TD]

16 hours ago, RyanC883 said:

At a event in Pgh is here.  While he is big and athletic looking, JA looks bigger and watching their first few years is a better QB.  

 

All that said, Ben has 2 rings.  JA should get at least that or we have a coaching/GM failure.  

 

Anyone think Ben is better?  

 

I agree. Although, it will be coaching that fails JA. Beane has already proven he is giving the Bills the best chance to win it all.

[Pabstblueribbon]

I'll echo what others have already said. JA has a higher ceiling than Big Ben. His trajectory will ultimately depend on longevity and the Bills organization consistently providing weapons to maximize his potential, in a similar fashion the steelers did. 

[Fr. Jerk]

Quit joshin around with this stuff, ya dig?

[Gugny]

1 hour ago, eball said:

 

Preach.  It's mind boggling to me.  This team is literally on the cusp of greatness, led by a QB who may wind up as one of the best of all time.

 

 

 

But don't forget ... Keyshawn Johnson says that the Bills never win any games because of Josh Allen.  

[NewEra]

10 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yup, there are multiple high-level QBs that have had horrible starts to post-season careers and then turned in terrific records. Remember Elway? Hell, Big Ben himself lost his first AFC championship.

 

Nothing wrong with speculating and guessing.

 

Plenty wrong with trying to already assign blame for catastrophes that have not yet happened and may never. It's poor thinking.

 

 

Many, me included, have already assigned blame to McD for Josh not winning the SB last year.  We’ll never know if we would’ve won, but we do know that McD prevented us from finding out.  Considering how Josh was playing in those 2 playoff games last year, I truly believe McD’s coaching in the final 13 seconds is the reason Josh doesn’t have one.  
 

Regarding the bolded….it HAS happened.  S The future is TBD, but we’ve already seen a catastrophe take place.  A catastrophe that, imo, cost Josh his chance at his first SB.  If Josh were to retire with no rings, many would believe that he doesn’t have a ring because of bad coaching….13 seconds is reason enough to feel that way.   

 

i agree that talking about the future is a different conversation….but the past has already shown bad coaching has cost them their best shot at a ring
 

[eball]

43 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

But don't forget ... Keyshawn Johnson says that the Bills never win any games because of Josh Allen.  

 

And Beane drafted Cody Ford, and Gabe Davis' legs are too thick, and Tremaine Edmunds doesn't make any plays, and if half of our starters get hurt we don't have enough depth...