What changes will Ken Dorsey bring to the Bills offense?

[Logic]

I posted this in another thread and then thought, what the heck, it probably deserves its own thread.  I'm hoping anybody who has done some digging of their own into Ken Dorsey's past as a player and coach can bring some knowledge to this, as well. Let's try to piece together what changes might be coming to the Bills offense.

I’ve been attempting to research Ken Dorsey’s background to see what he might bring to the Bills offense.

 

The thing that stands out to me is that he played his historic college career under Rob Chudzinski. He also coached under Chudzinski in Carolina. While I certainly don't expect him to import the 2001-2002 Miami U offense (a now-outdated pro style offense), I do think that seeing who Dorsey learned under as a college player and young coach could be informative.

 

When you look into the coaching history of Rob Chudzinski, you see lots of buzzwords that don't tell you much. "Multiple", "attacking", "tempo". Right. That's what they ALL say. One consistent thing about Chudzinski, though, is that he always leaned heavily on tight ends. From Shockey and Winslow at the U to Greg Olsen in Carolina, to attempting to make Colby Fleener and Dwayne Allen the focal points of the offense in Indy, there has always been heavy emphasis on tight end usage and, when personnel warranted, two tight end sets as a major part of the offense.

 

Given Knox’s breakout season and the Bills' reported interest in Gronkowski (and maybe Rudolph), I expect Dorsey to feature the tight end more, and I expect more two tight end sets, particularly with a second tight end who is actually a threat, not just a Tommy Sweeney like afterthought. Health permitting, expect Knox to have an all-world season. Expect whoever is the Bills TE2 to have a significant role, as well. This may also eat into the targets to the slot WR, so Beasley/McKenzie/whomever may see less looks.

I expect Dorsey to keep a lot of things the same for Josh, and given that the Bills already have a good offense, I don't think he'll radically change it. A decrease in the number 10 and 11 personnel in favor of more 12 personnel, though, is one change that I DO expect. It is also a change which may give a boost to both the running game and the pass protection, and may allow Allen more time and set up more deep play-action shots to Diggs, Davis, and hopefully a draftee or two.

If anyone else has anything to add, please do so, but this is the best I've been able to figure so far.

[Logic]

A further look into Chudzinski's offenses at the U and in his time with the Panthers show a strong preference for an aggressive downfield passing attack set up by a strong running game. Newton's two highest Y/A seasons came in his first two years, when Chudzinski had him firing the ball down field with great frequency. 

Given that Josh Allen finished 2021 as the NFL's most accurate deep ball passer, perhaps Dorsey has downfield passing on the mind.

[Paul Costa]

Has Dorsey’s past ever had a JA17 in it? Impossible to predict what he might do. With JA17 anything is possible 

[Process]

Hopefully a lot less running up the middle on 2nd and 10 at the 15 yard line.

[BuffaloBillyG]

Being that he has never been in the "Captain's Chair" of the offense it's really anybodies guess at this point what this own philosophies are. 

 

I'm sure he's picked up a few things here and there from past OCs he's played and worked under. How much and what is unknown. He may think you need waterbug at RB. 

 

I think the biggest question I have is in how well he can adjust what his likes and philosophies are to the personal Beane gets for him and how well he can identify and expound on what is working. 

 

I said in another thread I fully expect the 1st half of the season for the offense to be a bit off. Between the new adjustments on the system that will come, the lack of playcalling experience and almost certainly a few new players and coaches in that side of the ball...it's almost unavoidable IMO.

[Logic]

5 minutes ago, Paul Costa said:

Has Dorsey’s past ever had a JA17 in it? Impossible to predict what he might do. With JA17 anything is possible 

I'd say it's TOUGH to predict what he might do, but I don't agree that it's impossible, or not worth trying.

Everybody has preferences and tendencies. Everyone. 

With a guy who's never been an OC before, it's a bit tougher to guess, but that's what this thread is about.
 

[HappyDays]

I think the WR option routes will be less prevalent. There were too many miscommunications between Allen and the WRs last year, which led to a lot of interceptions or near-interceptions.

[loyal2dagame]

Hopefully whatever route trees he puts in for receivers will result in more YAC yards. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Adding Gronk, getting rid of Gilliam and any fullback would make me happy. A two TE set with two guys that are at least capable blockers and can win one on one matchups in the pass game is lethal to defend. It forces the defense to choose play base defense or nickel. Then the offense can react with runs against a softer front or attacking the base defense with multiple receiving threats. 

Gronk or another credible TE #2 wpuld transform this offense. 

If they don't land a good second TE option, then I hope it is more of the same. 3 or 4 WR sets with Knox rarely leaving the field. 

[Big Turk]

Why would anyone assume they would bring back an outdated offense when his latest experience was under Daboll and one of the best offenses in the NFL?

 

Like he will ignore what Daboll did and being back something that is outdated? Like c'mon man...do we really not have anything else to do these days?

[DJB]

Im thinking red helmets or a dome stadium.

 

 

Could go either way

Edited March 6, 2022 by DJB

[K-9]

Little to none. This is more Allen's offense than it is Dorsey's. Just as the Pats*** offense was Brady's more than it was any of the string of OCs he had in NE***. Just as offenses belong to any of the handful of top QBs, like Rodgers for example. 

[Logic]

22 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

Why would anyone assume they would bring back an outdated offense when his latest experience was under Daboll and one of the best offenses in the NFL?

 

Like he will ignore what Daboll did and being back something that is outdated? Like c'mon man...do we really not have anything else to do these days?

1.) No one suggested he'd bring back an outdated offense. Simply suggesting greater usage of tight ends and two-TE sets does not indicate an abandonment of Daboll's offense or a return to outdated modes of attack.

2.) This is a Bills message board, where people come to discuss the Bills. No football is being played right now. No players are being signed or drafted right now. The topic of what changes a new offensive coordinator might bring is relevant, timely, and was initiated during a relatively slow period of discussion for this forum.

3.) You're welcome to just...NOT REPLY to topics that don't interest you. I'm gonna keep posting about things that interest me. No one elected you "president of what's reasonable to talk about".

4.) Go make some pancakes or take a bike ride. You seem grumpy.

[Augie]

I’m hoping for fewer designed runs for Josh. It’s great when it works….until…..ya know….I can’t even think about it!  😱

 

Let’s have a more traditional running game, for the most part. 

6 minutes ago, Logic said:

4.) Go make some pancakes or take a bike ride. You seem grumpy.

 Maybe a Snickers bar would help?  

[Don Otreply]

55 minutes ago, Paul Costa said:

Has Dorsey’s past ever had a JA17 in it? Impossible to predict what he might do. With JA17 anything is possible 

Imo, not so, a coach goes to what he has learned and knows, that and they are keeping the EP scheme and language and the plays Josh likes,  per what has been stated,  with some new wrinkles, all of which is to be expected. With the addition of OLC Kromer we will see a more well rounded multi dimensional offense. Over all the above posts pretty much summarize what we are likely see from the new OC, again my opinion. 
 

Go Bills!!!

[Don Otreply]

49 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

Why would anyone assume they would bring back an outdated offense when his latest experience was under Daboll and one of the best offenses in the NFL?

 

Like he will ignore what Daboll did and being back something that is outdated? Like c'mon man...do we really not have anything else to do these days?

You seemed to miss the OPs points, a re-read is in order…, 

[Beerball]

51 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

Why would anyone assume they would bring back an outdated offense when his latest experience was under Daboll and one of the best offenses in the NFL?

 

Like he will ignore what Daboll did and being back something that is outdated? Like c'mon man...do we really not have anything else to do these days?

Ya didn't read the OP, didya?

[HOUSE]

[Don Otreply]

2 minutes ago, HOUSE said:

Exactly, you are in the know dude, 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

A further look into Chudzinski's offenses at the U and in his time with the Panthers show a strong preference for an aggressive downfield passing attack set up by a strong running game. Newton's two highest Y/A seasons came in his first two years, when Chudzinski had him firing the ball down field with great frequency. 

Given that Josh Allen finished 2021 as the NFL's most accurate deep ball passer, perhaps Dorsey has downfield passing on the mind.

 

Not so sure about "aggressive downfield passing" at the U--especially for 2001 (their Championship year).  Dorsey was out of the top 25 in passing yards and out of the top 15 in TDs.  They ran the ball (Portis, McGahee).  Newton had his best all around year as a passer in 2015, under Shula. 

 

Without a running game, I'm sure Dorsey has a downfield passing game in mind in Buffalo.  

[Logic]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Not so sure about "aggressive downfield passing" at the U--especially for 2001 (their Championship year).  Dorsey was out of the top 25 in passing yards and out of the top 15 in TDs.  They ran the ball (Portis, McGahee).  Newton had his best all around year as a passer in 2015, under Shula. 

 

Without a running game, I'm sure Dorsey has a downfield passing game in mind in Buffalo.  

Dorsey’s Y/A those years led me to believe that while they didn’t pass MUCH, they did attack deep. It’s been a long time, and I’m not over here watching old U tape, so I can’t say for sure.

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, Process said:

Hopefully a lot less running up the middle on 2nd and 10 at the 15 yard line.

God yes !

[loveorhatembillsfan4life]

Is the Offensive (playbook) ran last year property of the Buffalo Bills or does that leave with Daboll? I’m just curious if all those playsheets stay with the team if we want to still use them. 

[Mr. WEO]

16 minutes ago, Logic said:

Dorsey’s Y/A those years led me to believe that while they didn’t pass MUCH, they did attack deep. It’s been a long time, and I’m not over here watching old U tape, so I can’t say for sure.

 

I'm saying that U team was nothing in any way like the current Bills makeup.  It was a run heavy scheme that didn't rely on bombs by the QB--even if he tossed a few.  

 

Also, Chud was of a mind in Carolina that it was ok to run your big athletic QB into the ground.  Daboll/Dorsey certainly seem bent on continuing that...

Edited March 6, 2022 by Mr. WEO

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

Most likely they run the exact same offense (Dabolls) except Dorsey will add some new twists to it.

 

Hopefully less designed runs for Josh and other new plays Josh likes

[Warcodered]

 

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

Most likely they run the exact same offense (Dabolls) except Dorsey will add some new twists to it.

 

Hopefully less designed runs for Josh and other new plays Josh likes

This, ^^^. With our OLCs predilections, and with our HCs insistence, we are very likely to see a more multi dimensional offense, and of course Dorsey will run the EP offense with new twists,  this isn’t rocket surgery folks, look at the hires and promotions, they tell the tale…, it’s pretty obvious imo. 

[Buffalo Barbarian]

3 hours ago, Logic said:

I posted this in another thread and then thought, what the heck, it probably deserves its own thread.  I'm hoping anybody who has done some digging of their own into Ken Dorsey's past as a player and coach can bring some knowledge to this, as well. Let's try to piece together what changes might be coming to the Bills offense.

I’ve been attempting to research Ken Dorsey’s background to see what he might bring to the Bills offense.

 

The thing that stands out to me is that he played his historic college career under Rob Chudzinski. He also coached under Chudzinski in Carolina. While I certainly don't expect him to import the 2001-2002 Miami U offense (a now-outdated pro style offense), I do think that seeing who Dorsey learned under as a college player and young coach could be informative.

 

When you look into the coaching history of Rob Chudzinski, you see lots of buzzwords that don't tell you much. "Multiple", "attacking", "tempo". Right. That's what they ALL say. One consistent thing about Chudzinski, though, is that he always leaned heavily on tight ends. From Shockey and Winslow at the U to Greg Olsen in Carolina, to attempting to make Colby Fleener and Dwayne Allen the focal points of the offense in Indy, there has always been heavy emphasis on tight end usage and, when personnel warranted, two tight end sets as a major part of the offense.

 

Given Knox’s breakout season and the Bills' reported interest in Gronkowski (and maybe Rudolph), I expect Dorsey to feature the tight end more, and I expect more two tight end sets, particularly with a second tight end who is actually a threat, not just a Tommy Sweeney like afterthought. Health permitting, expect Knox to have an all-world season. Expect whoever is the Bills TE2 to have a significant role, as well. This may also eat into the targets to the slot WR, so Beasley/McKenzie/whomever may see less looks.

I expect Dorsey to keep a lot of things the same for Josh, and given that the Bills already have a good offense, I don't think he'll radically change it. A decrease in the number 10 and 11 personnel in favor of more 12 personnel, though, is one change that I DO expect. It is also a change which may give a boost to both the running game and the pass protection, and may allow Allen more time and set up more deep play-action shots to Diggs, Davis, and hopefully a draftee or two.

If anyone else has anything to add, please do so, but this is the best I've been able to figure so far.

 

I like double TE offense as it allows for better running while giving a viable pass threat. Also so many great teams had great TEs and this could give us that little bit extra we need.

 

 

2 hours ago, Augie said:

I’m hoping for fewer designed runs for Josh. It’s great when it works….until…..ya know….I can’t even think about it!  😱

 

Let’s have a more traditional running game, for the most part. 

 Maybe a Snickers bar would help?  

 

Snap into a slim jim !!

 

 

[Florida Bills Fanatic]

Dorsey was a really smart player in college.  He did not have exceptional physical talent. He was great at recognizing what defenses were trying to do and took what was available.  I don't expect him to deviate from that philosophy.  When the deep passing game is available, I believe that he will take some shots.  I also believe that he will attack a light box with the running game. The transition may be much smoother than some of us expect.  Daboll had his moments but he also had some clunkers (Jacksonville and Pittsburgh).

[CA OC Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, loveorhatembillsfan4life said:

Is the Offensive (playbook) ran last year property of the Buffalo Bills or does that leave with Daboll? I’m just curious if all those playsheets stay with the team if we want to still use them. 

It's owned by Dabol. That was in today's Bills Mailbag in the news. I had read that before by the same author maybe, but not sure.

https://buffalonews.com/sports/bills/bills-mailbag-is-going-after-rob-gronkowski-in-free-agency-the-right-move/article_d3bd1e04-9c08-11ec-a56c-c3ae8c08fdb4.html

[Logic]

I see a lot of sentiment that things are going to stay just about the same in offense this year. 
 

While I agree that there will be lots of carryover, I think there’s gonna be more change than people realize.

 

Ken Dorsey is launching his own play calling career here. He’s a human being with an ego and ambition. He’s not just going to blindly run Brian Daboll’s playbook. He WILL put his own stamp on it.

 

And that’s to say nothing of the additions of Joe Brady and Aaron Kromer — two former NFL play callers that will have some say in the offense, as well.

 

Terminology and key concepts and the most successful plays and packages from Daboll’s offense will stay, but the Bills offense is going to change. Count on it.

[John from Riverside]

2 TE sets will also help open up the running game

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 hours ago, Logic said:

I posted this in another thread and then thought, what the heck, it probably deserves its own thread.  I'm hoping anybody who has done some digging of their own into Ken Dorsey's past as a player and coach can bring some knowledge to this, as well. Let's try to piece together what changes might be coming to the Bills offense.

I’ve been attempting to research Ken Dorsey’s background to see what he might bring to the Bills offense.

 

The thing that stands out to me is that he played his historic college career under Rob Chudzinski. He also coached under Chudzinski in Carolina

 

I'm a little confused about this.  When did Dorsey coach under Rob Chudzinski in Carolina?  Chudzinski was the OC in Carolina in 2011 and 2012, but Dorsey was not a coaching assistant then - he was hired as a pro scout.

 

Dorsey was QB coach in Carolina from 2013-2017, a year in a college position, then came to the Bills as QB coach in 2019.

Mike Shula was the OC in Carolina from 2013-2017

 

So IMHO if you want to look at coaching influences on Dorsey, it makes at least as much, if not more, sense to look at Mike Shula and Brian Daboll as to look at Chudzinski.

 

Dorsey does have a Chudzinski connection in the NFL because he was on the Browns roster as a QB from 2006-2008, when Chudzinski was OC of the Browns 2007-2008.  But he never coached under Chud in Carolina (that I can figure out)

 

Other OCs Dorsey played under as an NFL QB are quite a motley crew: Greg Knapp, Ted Tellow, Mike McCarthy, Maurice Carthon, and Jeff Davidson.

 

It would actually be a cool article to have an interview with Dorsey about his playing and previous coaching career and get a feel for who he names as significant influences.  But I'd look at Shula, since that's who Dorsey was working with when he 'cut his teeth' as an NFL coach.

 

 

 

 

[RunTheBall]

The whole point of promoting Dorsey was continuity for Josh so to think there is going to be some drastic change in our offense is silly.

No one knows what wrinkles Dorsey will throw in, I’m sure his understanding of NFL offenses has evolved from his college days.

I think we will see a little more emphasis on the running game and I agree with McD that a more balanced attack is the best attack. At any time we like we can put 4-5 WR on the field and go balls out pass happy but that doesn’t need to be the base offense.

 

All you guys who think we are going to see a lot less JA runs are going to be sorely disappointed. One of the reasons he’s so good is his threat of running and that will be an integral part of his game. I think everyone is just worried he’s gonna get hurt. Look at Roger’s, he ran a lot more when he was younger, runs a lot less now but it’s still part of his game other teams need to account for.

 

I’d like to see more YAC, we were really bad at that. IDK if it was the routes, the receivers or what but we need to give our WRs more opportunity to run after the catch.

Edited March 7, 2022 by RunTheBall

[YattaOkasan]

9 hours ago, Logic said:

I posted this in another thread and then thought, what the heck, it probably deserves its own thread.  I'm hoping anybody who has done some digging of their own into Ken Dorsey's past as a player and coach can bring some knowledge to this, as well. Let's try to piece together what changes might be coming to the Bills offense.

I’ve been attempting to research Ken Dorsey’s background to see what he might bring to the Bills offense.

 

The thing that stands out to me is that he played his historic college career under Rob Chudzinski. He also coached under Chudzinski in Carolina. While I certainly don't expect him to import the 2001-2002 Miami U offense (a now-outdated pro style offense), I do think that seeing who Dorsey learned under as a college player and young coach could be informative.

 

When you look into the coaching history of Rob Chudzinski, you see lots of buzzwords that don't tell you much. "Multiple", "attacking", "tempo". Right. That's what they ALL say. One consistent thing about Chudzinski, though, is that he always leaned heavily on tight ends. From Shockey and Winslow at the U to Greg Olsen in Carolina, to attempting to make Colby Fleener and Dwayne Allen the focal points of the offense in Indy, there has always been heavy emphasis on tight end usage and, when personnel warranted, two tight end sets as a major part of the offense.

 

Given Knox’s breakout season and the Bills' reported interest in Gronkowski (and maybe Rudolph), I expect Dorsey to feature the tight end more, and I expect more two tight end sets, particularly with a second tight end who is actually a threat, not just a Tommy Sweeney like afterthought. Health permitting, expect Knox to have an all-world season. Expect whoever is the Bills TE2 to have a significant role, as well. This may also eat into the targets to the slot WR, so Beasley/McKenzie/whomever may see less looks.

I expect Dorsey to keep a lot of things the same for Josh, and given that the Bills already have a good offense, I don't think he'll radically change it. A decrease in the number 10 and 11 personnel in favor of more 12 personnel, though, is one change that I DO expect. It is also a change which may give a boost to both the running game and the pass protection, and may allow Allen more time and set up more deep play-action shots to Diggs, Davis, and hopefully a draftee or two.

If anyone else has anything to add, please do so, but this is the best I've been able to figure so far.

Really long post but here are cover 1s thoughts from a bit ago. Didn’t see it posted here. Haven’t seen a ton of discussion on the topic either. 
 

OMG I didn’t watch it all. Gonna finish it now. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by YattaOkasan

[ganesh]

11 hours ago, Process said:

Hopefully a lot less running up the middle on 2nd and 10 at the 15 yard line.

Or not giving the ball to your best player on the field in key moments of the game

[Greg S]

Hopefully he can develop a better running game with the RB's doing the running. I love Allen's game but I would like to see less running from him if the Bills can get better production from the RB's. Of course Josh continuing to throw the ball effectively all over the field is a must.

[Nihilarian]

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

Or not giving the ball to your best player on the field in key moments of the game

Kinda like what the Bengals did in not handing off to RB Joe Mixon and instead handed it to  Samaje Perine... in his two rushes that game, zero yards. 

 

Brian Daboll had his moments in which he looked so genius at times. Yet, fell on his face many, many times too. My take is Josh Allen had a lot to do with him looking so good.

 

Anyway, My take from what we will see with the 2022 Buffalo Bills offense is what we saw the last few games of the 2021 season. More balance, with less QB runs and more RB runs.

 

 

[Gugny]

39 minutes ago, Greg S said:

Hopefully he can develop a better running game with the RB's doing the running. I love Allen's game but I would like to see less running from him if the Bills can get better production from the RB's. Of course Josh continuing to throw the ball effectively all over the field is a must.

 

Devin Singletary was 19th in the NFL for rushing attempts by a running back.

 

Only four running backs ranked 1-18 in rushing attempts were better than Devin's 4.6 yards per carry.

 

I'm not sure how much better people want the run game to be in Buffalo.

[Greg S]

1 minute ago, Gugny said:

 

Devin Singletary was 19th in the NFL for rushing attempts by a running back.

 

Only four running backs ranked 1-18 in rushing attempts were better than Devin's 4.6 yards per carry.

 

I'm not sure how much better people want the run game to be in Buffalo.

 

Allen was the biggest threat running the ball. That has to change. I am not expecting Singletary to put up Henry or Taylor numbers but an 1100 to 1200 yard season is doable especially with 17 games. I know the Bills are a passing team first but we need more production from the run game without Josh.