Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 This was spurred by comments I made in the Gronk thread Knox improved greatly this season, but did he improve enough? When you look at his productivity per game, it's an improvement, but a smaller improvement than one might like to see In 2020, he had 40.5 snaps per game. In 2021, he had 61.1 snaps per game (87% of offensive snaps) That's a 51% increase in snaps per game. In 2020, he had 2.2 receptions per game In 2021, he had 3.3 receptions per game That's a 50% increase in receptions per game In 2020, he gained 24 yards per game In 2021, he gained 39 yards per game That's a 63% increase in yards per game But the bottom line - while 587 yds is much better productivity than 287 yds last year, his productivity in the passing game improved only slightly relative to the increased number of snaps he saw. I don't have a good sense as to how often he was used in the passing game (or open) relative to how much he was asked to block. He improved in other ways, of course: His catch % improved markedly, from 54.5% to 69% So did his yards per target from 6.5 to 8.3 His drops stayed constant, 3, which means as a percentage of targets, they improved from 9.1% to 5.6% Most critically - last year he had 2 fumbles. This year he did not fumble. I'm not Joe Expert, but to my perception his blocking showed a big improvement this season, as did his route running to the point where they actually were able to line him up as a receiver. His physicality as a route runner improved markedly, as well. How was he relative to other TE across the league? I had to pull data from PFR and sort it myself to get this. Among TE, Knox was: 13th for Y/G with 39 14th for Y/Tgt with 8.3 15th for Y/R with 12 14th for 1D with 41 28th in Catch% (of TE with more than 25 targets) at 69% Tied for 1st in TD with 9 (4 way tie) So except in TDs, kind of middling Obviously Knox has developed into a competent NFL TE who shows flashes of better. And some of the above comparison is unfair, as it lumps him in with TE who are primarily WR while Knox is asked to block quite a bit. This is Knox's contract year, and while I think he's worth the $2.7M he'll count against the cap in 2022, does his production merit a big payday? Being the #12-18 TE would slot him in currently for an AAV around $6.5-8M AAV, or a contract between $16M and $29M IMHO, this is reason to draft a young TE in what is supposed to be a deep TE draft class, because while Knox has improved, it seems to me that he has not yet become that Star TE we were hoping to draft and develop. He has not become Allen's Kelce or Kittle or Andrews, or even Goeddert or Waller. He is a good young TE, though. Thoughts? 6 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QB Bills Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 I've been a big fan of his since his rookie year. Guy is super talented as a receiver, even with the odd drop. Would be a mistake to let him leave. 5 9 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loveorhatembillsfan4life Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 I guess short answer for me is Yes. I think he improved enough this season to me where other teams now need to account for him. Keep him around at a fair contract.. he shouldn’t be paid anywhere near the top but I’m hesitant to start over with a Rookie.. I think we need to go all in for a Super Bowl run like now. Unless there is sure upgrade we can draft late (i do not know enough about the college guys to make that assertion) I’d like us to focus on other areas to improve.. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niagara Dude Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: This was spurred by comments I made in the Gronk thread Knox improved greatly this season, but did he improve enough? When you look at his productivity per game, it's an improvement, but a smaller improvement than one might like to see In 2020, he had 40.5 snaps per game. In 2021, he had 61.1 snaps per game (87% of offensive snaps) That's a 51% increase in snaps per game. In 2020, he had 2.2 receptions per game In 2021, he had 3.3 receptions per game That's a 50% increase in receptions per game In 2020, he gained 24 yards per game In 2021, he gained 39 yards per game That's a 63% increase in yards per game But the bottom line - while 587 yds is much better productivity than 287 yds last year, his productivity in the passing game improved only slightly relative to the increased number of snaps he saw. I don't have a good sense as to how often he was used in the passing game (or open) relative to how much he was asked to block. He improved in other ways, of course: His catch % improved markedly, from 54.5% to 69% So did his yards per target from 6.5 to 8.3 His drops stayed constant, 3, which means as a percentage of targets, they improved from 9.1% to 5.6% Most critically - last year he had 2 fumbles. This year he did not fumble. I'm not Joe Expert, but to my perception his blocking showed a big improvement this season, as did his route running to the point where they actually were able to line him up as a receiver. His physicality as a route runner improved markedly, as well. How was he relative to other TE across the league? I had to pull data from PFR and sort it myself to get this. Among TE, Knox was: 13th for Y/G with 39 14th for Y/Tgt with 8.3 15th for Y/R with 12 14th for 1D with 41 28th in Catch% (of TE with more than 25 targets) at 69% Tied for 1st in TD with 9 (4 way tie) So except in TDs, kind of middling Obviously Knox has developed into a competent NFL TE who shows flashes of better. And some of the above comparison is unfair, as it lumps him in with TE who are primarily WR while Knox is asked to block quite a bit. This is Knox's contract year, and while I think he's worth the $2.7M he'll count against the cap in 2022, does his production merit a big payday? Being the #12-18 TE would slot him in currently for an AAV around $6.5-8M AAV, or a contract between $16M and $29M IMHO, this is reason to draft a young TE in what is supposed to be a deep TE draft class, because while Knox has improved, it seems to me that he has not yet become that Star TE we were hoping to draft and develop. He has not become Allen's Kelce or Kittle or Andrews, or even Goeddert or Waller. He is a good young TE, though. Thoughts? Too many other holes to fill right now, he showed enough this past season that I would not invest any high draft pick on a TE. Maybe get a little stronger but he looks like he can be a player we can count on for years to come. Edited January 30, 2022 by Niagara Dude 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 What’s a mediocre veteran TE go for? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brand J Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 Dawson Knox is the Diontae Thompson of TEs. Excellent athleticism, but will have a boneheaded play or easy drop every once in while. Would I be comfortable giving that $8M/yr? No. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCBills Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said: Dawson Knox is the Diontae Thompson of TEs. Excellent athleticism, but will have a boneheaded play or easy drop every once in while. Would I be comfortable giving that $8M/yr? No. Do you watch other TE’s? Even Kittle, Kelce etc have drops. Knox drastically improved that this year. TE’s just aren’t as sure-handed all the time as WR’s. Diontae Johnson has games where he’s legitimately a liability. Knox is nowhere close to that. Yes, keep Knox. He’s a Top 10 TE, and is still improving. Edited January 30, 2022 by SCBills 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBeaneBandit Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 I would give him 6m per right now, but he would probably decline and bet on himself. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToGoGo Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 This is a question? We got our guy. He's going to be even better next year. 2 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brand J Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 Just now, SCBills said: Do you watch other TE’s? Even Kittle, Kelce etc have drops. Knox drastically improved that this year. TE’s just aren’t as sure-handed all the time as WR’s. Diontae Johnson has games where he’s legitimately a liability. Knox is nowhere close to that. Yes, keep Knox. He’s a Top 10 TE, and is still improving. Knox has trended upwards every year, but the question was would I feel comfortable paying what I’ve seen thus far $8M/yr and that answer is no. I like Knox, I think he works hard and again, has great athleticism, but you can’t put his name in the same sentence as a Kittle or Kelce. I know every player in the league drops passes, that’s not in doubt. It’s the types of drops that matter and how that affects the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uninja Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 Josh and him have really grown into each other. They’re seeing the field properly now and we’re getting good/great production from a TE in an offense that doesn’t necessarily run through TEs like SF’s or LV’s. Hell yeah I’m keeping him. Not for top 5 or top 3 TE money, but they’d be dumb not to make him a fair market offer to keep him. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 (edited) Yeah, I think its enough. The mid-season broken hand didn't do him any favors, but I think he's reached the point where he's one of the better players in the league at the position and may still improve from there. He's by far the best player they've had in that spot in the last 20 years. Edited January 30, 2022 by Brandon 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: This was spurred by comments I made in the Gronk thread Knox improved greatly this season, but did he improve enough? When you look at his productivity per game, it's an improvement, but a smaller improvement than one might like to see In 2020, he had 40.5 snaps per game. In 2021, he had 61.1 snaps per game (87% of offensive snaps) That's a 51% increase in snaps per game. In 2020, he had 2.2 receptions per game In 2021, he had 3.3 receptions per game That's a 50% increase in receptions per game In 2020, he gained 24 yards per game In 2021, he gained 39 yards per game That's a 63% increase in yards per game But the bottom line - while 587 yds is much better productivity than 287 yds last year, his productivity in the passing game improved only slightly relative to the increased number of snaps he saw. I don't have a good sense as to how often he was used in the passing game (or open) relative to how much he was asked to block. He improved in other ways, of course: His catch % improved markedly, from 54.5% to 69% So did his yards per target from 6.5 to 8.3 His drops stayed constant, 3, which means as a percentage of targets, they improved from 9.1% to 5.6% Most critically - last year he had 2 fumbles. This year he did not fumble. I'm not Joe Expert, but to my perception his blocking showed a big improvement this season, as did his route running to the point where they actually were able to line him up as a receiver. His physicality as a route runner improved markedly, as well. How was he relative to other TE across the league? I had to pull data from PFR and sort it myself to get this. Among TE, Knox was: 13th for Y/G with 39 14th for Y/Tgt with 8.3 15th for Y/R with 12 14th for 1D with 41 28th in Catch% (of TE with more than 25 targets) at 69% Tied for 1st in TD with 9 (4 way tie) So except in TDs, kind of middling Obviously Knox has developed into a competent NFL TE who shows flashes of better. And some of the above comparison is unfair, as it lumps him in with TE who are primarily WR while Knox is asked to block quite a bit. This is Knox's contract year, and while I think he's worth the $2.7M he'll count against the cap in 2022, does his production merit a big payday? Being the #12-18 TE would slot him in currently for an AAV around $6.5-8M AAV, or a contract between $16M and $29M IMHO, this is reason to draft a young TE in what is supposed to be a deep TE draft class, because while Knox has improved, it seems to me that he has not yet become that Star TE we were hoping to draft and develop. He has not become Allen's Kelce or Kittle or Andrews, or even Goeddert or Waller. He is a good young TE, though. Thoughts? I don't see Knox and the Bills in a position to agree to a contract in the range you are talking about............the Bills would probably take that gladly but Knox is going to be seeking in excess of $10M per year, IMO. He and his agent would argue that his arrow is going up and that he is one of the fastest TE's in the league. I like the idea of signing Gronk and using Knox more as the Y receiver and seeing how he handles that...........if returns aren't great early they could switch them around and work on getting Gronk more free releases from the slot. Also agree on drafting a TE either way.........this is a good draft for them and they might find that Knox doesn't take the next step to becoming a top 10 TE and being worth a $10M-$15M aav. Edited January 30, 2022 by BADOLBILZ 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPS Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 I'm not sure how easy it is to compare him to other TEs given he plays on a team with a WR corps of Diggs, Sanders, Beasely, McKenzie, and Davis? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LABILLBACKER Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 I don't know if Dawson is worth the 8-9M contract range, but his tds and catch% was very encouraging. My bigger concern is we can't keep going into seasons with just 1 TE. As much as I'd love to land Gesicki, he's going to be expensive. We need a good blocking TE like Lee who can catch the ball. No more fullbacks pretending to be TE's like Gilly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 9 minutes ago, SCBills said: Do you watch other TE’s? Even Kittle, Kelce etc have drops. Knox drastically improved that this year. TE’s just aren’t as sure-handed all the time as WR’s. Diontae Johnson has games where he’s legitimately a liability. Knox is nowhere close to that. Yes, keep Knox. He’s a Top 10 TE, and is still improving. I don’t think Knox is a top 10 tight end 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 He was 12th in yards and 1st in TDs per game among TEs. We'll see but it appears he's trending in the right direction. Whether they can keep him for a reasonable salary is another question since there's always someone out there to overpay. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ManRaid Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 He's going to be the Josh Allen of TEs. Late bloomer physical freak who needed to work on fundamentals. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brand J Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 (edited) Couldn’t put him above any of these players: Kelce, Kittle, Pitts, Waller, Hockenson, Engram, Gesicki, Andrews, Ertz, and Fant. This group is arguable: Goedert, Hooper, Henry, Cook, Higbee, Knox? I left off old man Gronk. Edited January 30, 2022 by JayBaller10 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loveorhatembillsfan4life Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 If Josh wants him I think he stays. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 2 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said: Couldn’t put him above any of these players: Kelce, Kittle, Pitts, Waller, Hockenson, Engram, Gesicki, Andrews, Ertz, and Fant. These group is arguable: Goedert, Hooper, Henry, Cook, Higbee, Knox? Goedert is better for sure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 I think he probably stays. It depends on his contract. I sense something slightly above average. In the 8-10th most expensive TE range. Maybe only 2-3 years so he can cash in again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st pete gogolak Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 Not that it's saying much, but if Knox sticks around for another two or three years, he'll be the best TE in Bills history. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 14 minutes ago, TPS said: I'm not sure how easy it is to compare him to other TEs given he plays on a team with a WR corps of Diggs, Sanders, Beasely, McKenzie, and Davis? I also wonder if that broken hand might have still been bothering him when he came back. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinky finger Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 I like Knox. Both as a person and player. I think he’ll continue to improve. But for him to get a big payday, he’ll need to ramp up his production and consistency. As mentioned by Hapless, he can block, hasn’t fumbled and is a beast after the catch. Touches and what he does with them will determine his payday. I’d add another TE either way. We need one. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
947 Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 His overall numbers are rather mediocre, aside from TDs, but he is a much bigger weapon than a mediocre TE. Knox actually plays TE, most of the other guys listed in this thread are actually just big WRs & don't line-up inline much, that's huge. The good news is, that he will likely be paid like a "pretty good TE", but has the potential for a 1,000 yard, 12 TD season. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinky finger Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 15 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: Goedert is better for sure agree - I liken Knox most to Higbee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norcalbillsfan Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 He's good enough right now, the TE isn't a focal point for our offense but he's getting better every year. He's an absolute freak athlete and hasn't played TE position very long he probably just now has gotten the same amount of snaps that sophmore or rookie TEs have. The TE position takes a long time to master in the nfl. But once they do they seem to have long careers, kelce is 32 and still wrecking defenses, and Knox is much more athletic than kelce and gronk. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 Well even though Knox is in his last year of his rookie contract I don't think Beane will sign him up for an extension unless Knox and his agent want to tie it up for a reasonable number. TEs usually go to the end of rookie contracts before signing. As to his worth look no further than 2 FAs (Dalton Schultz, Mike Gesicki) this year will get $10M-$12M. Guys like Uzomah, Njoku, Max Williams and Evan Engram will get $6M-$8M. So, make your plans accordingly. Personally, I don't think Knox is going anywhere. They will draft a TE around the 5th round this year. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 8 minutes ago, 947 said: His overall numbers are rather mediocre, aside from TDs, but he is a much bigger weapon than a mediocre TE. Knox actually plays TE, most of the other guys listed in this thread are actually just big WRs & don't line-up inline much, that's huge. The good news is, that he will likely be paid like a "pretty good TE", but has the potential for a 1,000 yard, 12 TD season. How do you see him having the potential for a 1,000 yard season? He’s never cracked 600 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norcalbillsfan Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 8 minutes ago, 947 said: His overall numbers are rather mediocre, aside from TDs, but he is a much bigger weapon than a mediocre TE. Knox actually plays TE, most of the other guys listed in this thread are actually just big WRs & don't line-up inline much, that's huge. The good news is, that he will likely be paid like a "pretty good TE", but has the potential for a 1,000 yard, 12 TD season. Plus his td number could have easily been crazy. I could be wrong but I think Knox had 4 tds called back on penalties this year, and had quite a few targets in the end zone that he couldn't come down with Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strive_for_five_guy Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 If Tyler Kroft cost roughly $6M/year to sign with Bills, then paying Knox $8M/year will be a steal. The guy has become one of Josh’s favorite red zone targets. What’s a better alternative? 1 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: How do you see him having the potential for a 1,000 yard season? He’s never cracked 600 Maybe the new OC will game plan TE usage more? Even so, Knox doesn't have to get to 1,000 to be a weapon teams Ds have to worry about. Is there any evidence that Daboll was a big TE game scheme OC? 1 minute ago, strive_for_five_guy said: If Tyler Kroft cost roughly $6M/year to sign with Bills, then paying Knox $8M/year will be a steal. The guy has become one of Josh’s favorite red zone targets. What’s a better alternative? I was just going to use Kroft as an example of what Beane is willing to pay. Well done! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 I think the Bills will see how Knox does in 2022 before making a judgement as to how badly they want to keep him. If he continues to break out the price they are willing to pay will go up if he regresses the price goes down pretty simple. Very fortunate to have one more year remaining on the rookie deal with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 2 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said: Maybe the new OC will game plan TE usage more? Even so, Knox doesn't have to get to 1,000 to be a weapon teams Ds have to worry about. Is there any evidence that Daboll was a big TE game scheme OC? I don’t know what the new OC will do. I was responding to the comment that Knox has the potential to put up top3 TE stats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 Just now, GoBills808 said: I don’t know what the new OC will do. I was responding to the comment that Knox has the potential to put up top3 TE stats Sorry I missed that point in the thread. I guess my point is Knox doesn't need to put up top 3 stats to be worth the money I think he will sign for. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 1 minute ago, ColoradoBills said: Sorry I missed that point in the thread. I guess my point is Knox doesn't need to put up top 3 stats to be worth the money I think he will sign for. That’s probably true. I just think Knox is being overrated in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Success Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 He's a Bill. Some guys are just kind of born to be a Bill. Could we get a better TE? Maybe - but I hope they hang onto him just for his attitude. He's got the whole game, too - he has improved significantly as a blocker. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonzo1105 Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 Could do better and could do worse. He's probably an average #1 his whole career and a really really good # 2 so he's a tweener. The problem is he is the best TE the Bills have had in a long long time even though he's average. So Bills fans will tend to make him better than he really is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott7975 Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 (edited) Knox is worth keeping on a moderate contract. I would like to see the TE position added to with better talent than whats below him though. Edited January 30, 2022 by Scott7975 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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