Training Camp practice and Media Sessions 8/5

[TheBeaneBandit]

3 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

With all the gushing about Chief’s 6th round rookie OG Trey Smith in the other thread, I wonder how Jack Anderson is coming along. Haven’t read a single word about him. The Doyle pick still has me scratching my head because interior help is what the Bills needed most.

Damn I knew Trey Smith could play. I thought he dropped because of a condition of some sort. Dude was a late 1st early 2nd round talent.

[Peace Frog]

Maybe lose the TE position this year and go with our version of the run & shoot offense.

[Logic]

3 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

With all the gushing about Chief’s 6th round rookie OG Trey Smith in the other thread, I wonder how Jack Anderson is coming along. Haven’t read a single word about him. The Doyle pick still has me scratching my head because interior help is what the Bills needed most.

I respectfully disagree that interior depth is/was needed more than tackle depth.

On the interior, we have

Feliciano
Ford
Boettger
Lamp
Bates
Devey

None of those guys are world beaters, but several of them have starting experience, and several of them still have the capacity to improve. Besides, it's not as if the Bills' offensive line was a tire fire last season. To the degree that they struggled, I would point at least partially to Feliciano and Ford -- the presumed starters -- both missing significant time due to injury.

On the other hand, after Dion Dawkins and Daryl Williams, the Bills had just Bobby Hart at tackle. That is SCARY. I have read the opinions of Bengals fans and seen some of the lowlights myself, and if the Bills ever have to depend on Hart for significant snaps, well....not good. 

Time will tell if Brown or Doyle are actually upgrades, but I view the addition of both guys as very necessary, and chalk it up to some prudent present and future planning by Beane.

As for Trey Smith, well....Zero has been calling him "the steal of the draft" since before pads even came on, so...yeah.

[YoloinOhio]

 

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by YoloinOhio

[Brand J]

 

4 minutes ago, Logic said:

I respectfully disagree that interior depth is/was needed more than tackle depth.

On the interior, we have

Feliciano
Ford
Boettger
Lamp
Bates
Devey

None of those guys are world beaters, but several of them have starting experience, and several of them still have the capacity to improve. Besides, it's not as if the Bills' offensive line was a tire fire last season. To the degree that they struggled, I would point at least partially to Feliciano and Ford -- the presumed starters -- both missing significant time due to injury.

On the other hand, after Dion Dawkins and Daryl Williams, the Bills had just Bobby Hart at tackle. That is SCARY. I have read the opinions of Bengals fans and seen some of the lowlights myself, and if the Bills ever have to depend on Hart for significant snaps, well....not good. 

Time will tell if Brown or Doyle are actually upgrades, but I view the addition of both guys as very necessary, and chalk it up to some prudent present and future planning by Beane.

As for Trey Smith, well....Zero has been calling him "the steal of the draft" since before pads even came on, so...yeah.

When the Bills OL was beaten last season, the pressure most often came from the interior. As you said, none of those guys are world beaters, they’re all just JAGs. Ford hasn’t proven he can do it yet, Feliciano’s weakness is pass protection. Boettger has improved, but isn’t a long term answer. Morse may be gone after this year. I see your argument about Spencer Brown and it makes sense, but I still maintain interior help is needed most, in terms of an upgrade.

[GETTOTHE50]

1 minute ago, JayBaller10 said:

 

When the Bills OL was beaten last season, the pressure most often came from the interior. As you said, none of those guys are world beaters, they’re all just JAGs. Ford hasn’t proven he can do it yet, Feliciano’s weakness is pass protection. Boettger has improved, but isn’t a long term answer. Morse may be gone after this year. I see your argument about Spencer Brown and it makes sense, but I still maintain interior help is needed most, in terms of an upgrade.

 

i agree. chris jones exposed mongo a few times during the AFC championship. i love mongo, but he is better suited for center. and yes hopefully ford steps up guard bc we do need upgrades in the interior

[Shaw66]

12 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

Because of COVID the number of eligible available draft picks was significantly lower this year and many juniors and seniors that sat out were granted an extra year of eligibility and decided to come back.

 

It was talked about several times that many guys would never have been drafted and teams were actually looking ahead and actively trading picks in this draft for picks next year because the anticipation is that next year could have nearly twice as many eligible players declare for the draft making it one of the deepest ever.

 

That doesn’t mean the top end talent was not as good, but a lot of the depth was missing and it allowed some very middle of the pack guys to get drafted based upon potential rather than on the field play.

Thanks.   But I thought receivers were deep, and there was some speculation that Stevenson might have fallen a bit compared to a normal receiver year.  But what do I know?  I didn't follow it all that carefully.   All I knew is that the pick sent a message to McKenzie - "we now have an option."

[RichRiderBills]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Admittedly, I have not been a McKenzie fan, but it's certainly sounding like he's the guy.  

 

I am a big Roberts fan.  More so than almost any other position, punt returning is an instinct skill, instinct and quickness.  Roberts has the instinct; I don't see it in McKenzie.  George Saimes had the instinct.  Roscoe Parish did.  Hyde has the instinct but not the high-end quickness or speed McKenzie has.  McKenzie is fast, he can change direction, but he doesn't seem to anticipate the openings the way Roberts did.   And I don't buy the criticism of Roberts making bad judgments on kickoffs.  Roberts very clearly did what he was told to do - NOBODY plays for McDermott who doesn't do what he's coached.  So when Roberts brought the ball out of the end zone, he did because he was told he could do it if he saw certain things.  When he saw those things, he went.  If he misread something, it showed up in the film and they coached him.   He wasn't a loose cannon back there.  

 

But having said all that, my worst-case view of McKenzie returning kicks is that he's serviceable.  He was a better receiver last season than in previous years, and it sounds like he's still learning in both roles.   

 

I was never a giant McKenzie fan either for a couple of reasons;

 

A. I thought the guy in the Roberts role and the kind of jacknife x guy in the offense that McKenzie was should be the same roster spot.

 

B. He just did not get in the snaps and was not consistent enough.

 

So now, especially after that Miami game to end the year, I'm really at peace with him in the full Roberts/ McKenzie role all in one for this season. 

 

 

[BigAl2526]

4 hours ago, YattaOkasan said:

I am coming around to McKenzie being return guy.  Mostly cause of the improvements hes shown as a receiver.  If hes committed to returns in that way then I think he may have learned a lot from Roberts last 2 years.

The only downside is that a player whose primary role is as a returner, he may not be as available to run plays on offense.  That, according to special teams icon Steve Tasker, who says it's really tough to do both.

[YoloinOhio]

 

[First Round Bust]

well its either McK returning punts-kicks or a rook or journeyman Powell who is not looking all that good..McK has had game experience and all off-season to prep so lets see how good he looks doing it in pre-see games...saves a roster spot as McK can still be that gadget WR, the rook to the PS and Powell to waiver wire...

[loveorhatembillsfan4life]

The legend of Kumerow is growing day by day! 
I’m about ready to say line us up five wide and dare you stop our guys each  down, Throw Knox on the sideline…keep the playmakers on the field. 

 

But seriously I’m stoked about our Wr depth right now. 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by loveorhatembillsfan4life

[NewEra]

26 minutes ago, Logic said:

I respectfully disagree that interior depth is/was needed more than tackle depth.

On the interior, we have

Feliciano
Ford
Boettger
Lamp
Bates
Devey

None of those guys are world beaters, but several of them have starting experience, and several of them still have the capacity to improve. Besides, it's not as if the Bills' offensive line was a tire fire last season. To the degree that they struggled, I would point at least partially to Feliciano and Ford -- the presumed starters -- both missing significant time due to injury.

On the other hand, after Dion Dawkins and Daryl Williams, the Bills had just Bobby Hart at tackle. That is SCARY. I have read the opinions of Bengals fans and seen some of the lowlights myself, and if the Bills ever have to depend on Hart for significant snaps, well....not good. 

Time will tell if Brown or Doyle are actually upgrades, but I view the addition of both guys as very necessary, and chalk it up to some prudent present and future planning by Beane.

As for Trey Smith, well....Zero has been calling him "the steal of the draft" since before pads even came on, so...yeah.

Agreed that depth on the interior is better than at tackle.  The level of starter play at the tackle is 10x better than the level of starter guard play.  Anyone we drafted at OG would’ve had a chance to start this season and upgraded our starting OL, rather than strictly as depth.  
 

Passing on Smith in rounds 3-6 really pissed me off.  Figures that kC would land him

[BillsFan4]

34 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

 

It’s sooo nice to be getting excited about continuity!

 

What a welcome change. I sure like it a lot better than the days of trying to get excited over the newest Bills coach/QB/coordinator (etc) hoping that they’d finally be the one to turn things around.

[JerseyBills]

45 minutes ago, Logic said:

I respectfully disagree that interior depth is/was needed more than tackle depth.

On the interior, we have

Feliciano
Ford
Boettger
Lamp
Bates
Devey

None of those guys are world beaters, but several of them have starting experience, and several of them still have the capacity to improve. Besides, it's not as if the Bills' offensive line was a tire fire last season. To the degree that they struggled, I would point at least partially to Feliciano and Ford -- the presumed starters -- both missing significant time due to injury.

On the other hand, after Dion Dawkins and Daryl Williams, the Bills had just Bobby Hart at tackle. That is SCARY. I have read the opinions of Bengals fans and seen some of the lowlights myself, and if the Bills ever have to depend on Hart for significant snaps, well....not good. 

Time will tell if Brown or Doyle are actually upgrades, but I view the addition of both guys as very necessary, and chalk it up to some prudent present and future planning by Beane.

As for Trey Smith, well....Zero has been calling him "the steal of the draft" since before pads even came on, so...yeah.

We had a top 10 oline and had injuries, Mongo,Ford,Morse. 

Dabol goes 6 OL alot, I think Brown can be a big time addition at that spot at least

[BornAgainBillsFan]

4 hours ago, Solomon Grundy said:

It seems, to me, that McKenzie may have more "game break" ability than Andre Roberts did

 

He's got some good instincts, but I remember the Fins punter almost running him down during his house call in week 17. He had to add a few juke moves to get in.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

5 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

Ahhhhhhhh! I’m not sure what to do with my hands. 

 

just kidding 

Pre Season week 1 ???

 

ya got to get some practice in too. 
 

😝

 

Another fan favorite 

 

Uniform color 

 

and no one will complain about Grey face masks 

 

Right @BringBackFergy?

Edited August 5, 2021 by SlimShady'sSpaceForce

[YoloinOhio]

9 minutes ago, BornAgainBillsFan said:

 

He's got some good instincts, but I remember the Fins punter almost running him down during his house call in week 17. He had to add a few juke moves to get in.

Well he’s our punter now so …

[TPS]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

Those are all fair points.  Roberts was a natural back there, catching the ball and going.  Like Hyde.  I'm always comfortable when Hyde is back there.  

 

But one of the comments from Farwell is that he can't keep McKenzie off the JUGS machine.  It's pretty clear that McDermott likes Mac not just because of the Swiss-Army-knife factor, but also his dedication.   He clearly improved last season as a receiver, it sounds like he's taking seriously the punt return job.  

 

My view on punt returning is that top-end speed isn't so important any more.  In the modern NFL, with the rules as they are, and with the specialization of players and teams, punt returns for touchdowns are becoming rare.  The punting team has to make a mistake to give up a touchdown.   I think the best you can reasonably expect is a guy who can get you 10 to 15 or 20 yards, which is a nice flip in field position.  That doesn't require top-end speed; it requires recognition and quickness - it's classic broken field running.  That's why I mentioned Saimes, who most people here never saw.   He was a master at it - he wasn't going to outrun everyone to the end zone, but he'd get you 15 when everyone else would get you 5 or 7.  

 

Anyway, like all the positions (except tight end - Knox dropped another today?  C'mon, man!) on the Bills this season, the Bills have punt returning covered with McKenzie.  If anyone can beat him out, it's just an upgrade over a solid answer.  

I seem to recall reading a quote from McKenzie who said that Roberts taught him to be more aggressive on KO returns, "just take it and go!"

[EmotionallyUnstable]

Could the early success of McKenzie and Kumerow, lead to the unlikely 7 receivers, spelling an end to possibly Breida? 

ive seen him playing some STs, but wonder how else they get to 7 (if they wanted to roster the aforementioned and maybe Hodgins/Stevenson)

[BADOLBILZ]

24 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

There was no drop off from Ford to Ike…. One could argue Ike was better…

 

 

The best Ford has looked as a pro was in the preseason of 2019 lined up at guard on the right side next to Nsekhe.    

 

Somehow a bogus narrative came about that he was somehow better suited on the left side.........he stunk when he played there.

 

His best shot is on the right side, IMO.    Boettger definitely outplayed Ford on the left side last year.

[Dablitzkrieg]

I'm not ready to give up on Knox.  Bad play are standing out because the team rarely makes them now.  He will be fine

[YattaOkasan]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

It was a known problem that he should have worked on in the off-season after his rookie season, and definitely after year 2.  He simply shouldn't be dropping the ball.  

To be fair he cut his drop % in half last year, and its pretty well documented how he worked on it this year.  As mentioned by the media in a couple places he has been catching well this TC.  It is something that everyone is gonna harp about when it happens too (similar to how we would have to see repeats of Josh's rough throws even in good games last year).  

Edited August 5, 2021 by YattaOkasan

[Shaw66]

Just now, TPS said:

I seem to recall reading a quote from McKenzie who said that Roberts taught him to be more aggressive on KO returns, "just take it and go!"

It's always interested me that kickoff and punt returns are so different.  Kickoffs are definitely "take it and go."   Just catch and run as fast as you can toward where your seam is supposed to be, keep going forward as fast as you can.  Changes of direction are gliding redirections. 

 

Punt returns are true broken field running - starts and stops, changes of direction.  

 

Most returners are good at one and not so good at the other.  Roscoe, for example, was a devastating punt returner and never much of a kick returner.   That was another thing that made Roberts valuable as a return man - he is among the best at both.   McKenzie actually strikes me as a tweener, not quite the broken field runner that the best punt returners are, not quite the blazing north-south guy you want on kickoff returns.  Still, McKenzie is a solid choice. 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, JayBaller10 said:

With all the gushing about Chief’s 6th round rookie OG Trey Smith in the other thread, I wonder how Jack Anderson is coming along. Haven’t read a single word about him. The Doyle pick still has me scratching my head because interior help is what the Bills needed most.

 

 

The Bills put in a good deal of work on Anderson in the draft process.    Sometimes the late picks are about interviews and access/exposure to the player.    I always like to see them go with the high upside guys late........Smith over Doyle or Anderson would have been a popular choice with me...........but sometimes drafting like that is also how you end up with Cardale Jones and Kolby Listenbee.    

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

To be fair he cut his drop % in half last year, and its pretty well documented how he worked on it this year.  As mentioned by the media in a couple places he has been catching well this TC.  It is something that everyone is gonna harp about when it happens too (similar to how we would have to see repeats of Josh's rough throws even in good games last year).  

Right.  For any receiver, it's all about being consistently good catching the ball.  Everyone is going to have a drop once in a while.  The problem Knox has (like some other receivers), is that once you develop the reputation, even if you've improved, everyone notices your drops.   

 

And maybe he was better in 2020 than 2019, but he wasn't good enough.  He needs another big step, or he's going to be replaced.  

[Forward Progress]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

Right.  For any receiver, it's all about being consistently good catching the ball.  Everyone is going to have a drop once in a while.  The problem Knox has (like some other receivers), is that once you develop the reputation, even if you've improved, everyone notices your drops.   

 

And maybe he was better in 2020 than 2019, but he wasn't good enough.  He needs another big step, or he's going to be replaced.  

 

I think you're right, Shaw.  Knox is an interesting case, because he's made so many difficult catches along with a high number of easy drops.  My belief has been that he's eyeing up his next move before securing the catch on the easy one's and fully focused on the contested catches.  Whatever the cause of the drops, I hope he turns it around this year because his game is pretty solid outside of the easy dropped balls.

[BornAgainBillsFan]

1 minute ago, YoloinOhio said:

Well he’s our punter now so …

 

That's right!! And he and McKenzie were training together in the offseason. Maybe he was trying to pick up some speed tips from Haake!!

[CorkScrewHill]

5 hours ago, YattaOkasan said:

I am coming around to McKenzie being return guy.  Mostly cause of the improvements hes shown as a receiver.  If hes committed to returns in that way then I think he may have learned a lot from Roberts last 2 years.

This data is from last October, but I have always been a bit skeptical of Andre Roberts .. he takes them out all the time and on average we were one of the better teams re: starting field position.. but by just a little bit ( a yard or two). I also think that Josh like most QBs struggle more when backed up .. I would be fine if Mackenzie took a knee every time .. and he has the added advantage of being a real WR.

 

https://thecommutesports.com/2020/10/27/nfl-starting-field-position/

 

The chart is pretty interesting so I would recommend taking a look.

[NewEra]

18 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

Could the early success of McKenzie and Kumerow, lead to the unlikely 7 receivers, spelling an end to possibly Breida? 

ive seen him playing some STs, but wonder how else they get to 7 (if they wanted to roster the aforementioned and maybe Hodgins/Stevenson)

We needed to add speed to the RB room.  Breida was the only speed addition.  I can’t see any scenario in which breida doesn’t make the team unless Antonio Williams explodes into the scene and takes the spot from him.  

[YattaOkasan]

3 minutes ago, CorkScrewHill said:

This data is from last October, but I have always been a bit skeptical of Andre Roberts .. he takes them out all the time and on average we were one of the better teams re: starting field position.. but by just a little bit ( a yard or two). I also think that Josh like most QBs struggle more when backed up .. I would be fine if Mackenzie took a knee every time .. and he has the added advantage of being a real WR.

 

https://thecommutesports.com/2020/10/27/nfl-starting-field-position/

 

The chart is pretty interesting so I would recommend taking a look.

Pretty interesting, but doesnt it show how good Roberts was?  They concluded Jets and Bills were getting the most out of our units.

[78thealltimegreat]

Well one thing I have learned is that Aaron Rogers if he ever decided to would be a heck a scout or GM and Steve Tasker who was pumping Dawson Knox’s tires as being the player to take the next great leap would not 

[LABILLBACKER]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You can count me in the camp that believes "instinct" is something that can be trained with the right practice.

 

The Bills gave Roberts a big contract not only because they wanted reliable hands, but because they wanted to add "home run threat" abilities to their punt and kick return game.  For whatever reason, not only didn't that work for them.  The last two seasons, Bills had one PR TD (McKenzie of the "lack of anticipation") and one KR TD (Micah Hyde).  In addition, Roberts fumbled 3x (Tenn Pitts and Den) and deflected a catchable but off-target pass up into harms way for a pick (Tenn).

 

Roberts absolutely brought the ball out at times when ST-knowledgeable members here pointed out why he shouldn't.  I'm sure they coached him, but the point of paying good $$$ to a KR/PR specialist is you're not supposed to have to do that so much.  He was pressing, I think; he wanted to make a big play and contribute to the team's success and sometimes it backfired.

 

I think there will be a downgrade with McKenzie back there, but hopefully not too large and we absolutely needed another WR who could really contribute well enough to put the "walking wounded" on the bench at times.

Completely agree. I think the 3 fumbles and that catchable INT sealed Andre's fate. Isaiah will be a high risk high return player. It wouldn't surprise me to see him get at least 1 or 2 td returns. But his early career fumbles must be coached out of his system. 

[The Firebaugh Kid]

2 hours ago, DJB said:

Looking forward to the day we replace Knox as our starter. 

 

Dude just can't catch the football. 

I'll be honest...Dawson Knox sucks. 

 

[Patrick Duffy]

2 hours ago, Bray Wyatt said:

 

I will have to disagree with you on the instinct for Mackenzie, he has been a good returner, his issue has/had been holding on to the ball. If he has improved that aspect, I dont foresee much of a drop off from Roberts (and Roberts did not really have the best year in regards to ball security last year anyway, iirc he had 3 fumbles)

Disagree. In the past when McK was K/R (which was not often), I don't recall him being a "good returner". Maybe average at best or maybe even below average. He obviously did great last season with the TD return when he had to step in. 

 

Maybe it's an area he has improved upon as of last season and hopefully if called upon for that role again he will keep it up. As for he "has been a good returner" in the past, I haven't seen it.....unless I'm missing something.

[YattaOkasan]

5 minutes ago, The Firebaugh Kid said:

I'll be honest...Dawson Knox sucks. 

 

He honestly reminds me of Josh a lot.  Doesn't have a ton of reps, but has very good traits.  If he turns out like Josh is still very unclear.

[Fred Slacks]

39 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

Could the early success of McKenzie and Kumerow, lead to the unlikely 7 receivers, spelling an end to possibly Breida? 

ive seen him playing some STs, but wonder how else they get to 7 (if they wanted to roster the aforementioned and maybe Hodgins/Stevenson)

I think it would lead to an end for Taiwan Jones as Kumerow can play gunner.

 

[Patrick Duffy]

2 hours ago, Logic said:

Now THIS is interesting.

Last year we were hearing about Davis lighting it up in practice.

This year, all we hear about is Kumerow dominating, and we've heard barely a peep about Davis.

Much ado about nothing? Sophomore slump incoming? What's the deal?

Well, I think it's more about Kumerow basically being the "cinderella story" I guess you could say. So there is and will be more about him I would think. Davis has been solid. He has a couple drops I believe was reported few days ago, which is no biggie. Otherwise seems to me he is doing his thing as usual.

[Bray Wyatt]

15 minutes ago, Sheneneh Jenkins said:

Disagree. In the past when McK was K/R (which was not often), I don't recall him being a "good returner". Maybe average at best or maybe even below average. He obviously did great last season with the TD return when he had to step in. 

 

Maybe it's an area he has improved upon as of last season and hopefully if called upon for that role again he will keep it up. As for he "has been a good returner" in the past, I haven't seen it.....unless I'm missing something.

 

He was a returner in college, had 5 punt return for tds in college. Also averaged 11.7 yard per return, so the talent is there.

[YoloinOhio]

https://twitter.com/ashnoelletv/status/1423361992019087362?s=21