When the Patriot Way goes wrong

[YoloinOhio]

Things are bad in Detroit but this details how bad. 

Patricia and Quinn have tried to make their New England ways work in Detroit, but one coach who has experience coaching in the Patriot Way culture says the system can be grating on players and coaches, especially if there aren't results.

"Listen, we all want to replicate the Patriots' success, but the track record of guys that come out and seem to try to replicate it is tough among front office and coaches," says another source, who has interviewed coaching candidates coming from New England, including Patricia. "Authoritarian, very hierarchical organizations, whether they are in football or otherwise, that's what you get: You don't get people to develop their own way."

 

Then you have the much discussed Bill O’Brien debacle in Houston and this on Joe Judge from last week -

 

 

[FeelingOnYouboty]

The only NE coach who’s had some success is Flores but it’s still too early to judge him.

 

Thank God for Beane and McDermott. I’m so grateful!

[LikeIGiveADarn]

Amazing how much it's looking like Brady covered for BB.

[Inigo Montoya]

I think the lack of success from the Belichick coaching tree, especially when compared to the Parcells and Andy Reid trees, is because when you are an assistant coach in New England, Bill micro-manages everything. Belichick doesn't develop coaches, he simply instructs them on how to do things his way.  When his coaches finally get a head coaching gig and leave New England they suffer from that lack of personal growth and development.  Most of these guys go off to another team and try to be Bill Belichick, like Matt Patricia is doing, and it just doesn't work.  

 

The other thing these fledgling coaches don't have is the incredible good fortune to find a unicorn like Brady, a generational talent at QB who is also beta-male enough to tolerate the constant abuse of his head coach even after numerous championships and MVPs.  What Belichick did in New England is not reproducible elsewhere and I think the rest of the League is finally starting to figure that out.

 

 

Edited November 27, 2020 by Inigo Montoya

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

38 minutes ago, FeelingOnYouboty said:

The only NE coach who’s had some success is Flores but it’s still too early to judge him.

 

Thank God for Beane and McDermott. I’m so grateful!

 

 

5-11 last season and likely to finish no better than 8-8 this season. not real success as of yet but not as bad as the others mentioned in the OP.

[Don Otreply]

Its just fine with me to watch the entire pats tree fail, to include Belichick and Brady, they all deserve what they are getting. Makes me smile every time more of it comes apart. Getting caught cheating every four ish years for decades says an awful lot the entire organization, and all the people who happily participated in it. A giant asterisks and a dark cloud hovers over every one of them. Birds of a feather as they say...

[Mark80]

17 minutes ago, A Firm Tree Does Not Fear said:

 

 

5-11 last season and likely to finish no better than 8-8 this season. not real success as of yet but not as bad as the others mentioned in the OP.

 

It is when you consider the team last year was so talent deprived that many thought they would go 0-16.  And this years team is surprising most as well.  I'm sure not many would have put them over 5 wins for the entire season. This guy is going to be a problem for us for a long time to come I'm afraid.  'Bout to be like the late 80s/early 90s rivalry again.

Edited November 27, 2020 by Mark80

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

4 minutes ago, Mark80 said:

 

It is when you consider the team last year was so talent deprived that many thought they would go 0-16.  And this years team is surprising most as well.  I'm sure not many would have put them over 5 wins for the entire season. This guy is going to be a problem for us for a long time to come I'm afraid.  'Bout to be like the late 80s/early 90s rivalry again.

we shall see...

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

This is really fascinating.

 

I actually have no doubt that the “patriot way” works in theory. It’s just impossible to implement in practice. I suspect that Bellichick lucking into it by having Tom Brady and early success and then having a few other key players who bought in— and that was just the right recipe to establish his culture.  
 

You’re not going to get any buy in, unless you are winning. 

[Coffeesforclosers]

The Patriot Way consists of:

 

1. Tom Brady

2. Ten feet of BS

3. Bill Belichick

4. 30 feet of BS

5. A bunch of kool aid drinking assistants chanting "Do Your Job!"

 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

1 hour ago, FeelingOnYouboty said:

The only NE coach who’s had some success is Flores but it’s still too early to judge him.

 

Thank God for Beane and McDermott. I’m so grateful!

Vrabel In Tennessee is from the Pats*** tree so to speak 

 

They have had some success 

 

Not many other Belicheat offshoots have 

 

The segue -  Brady or Belichick? 
 

one or the other or was it both. 
 

sure you can argue Matt Cassel and 11 wins. Or was it just a good team all around?

 

And the Refs favoritism 

[Freddie's Dead]

The Cheatriot Way is unreproducible because it's based on cheating.  It hasn't "gone wrong", it's been wrong from the beginning.

Edited November 27, 2020 by Freddie's Dead

[Punching Bag]

13 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

The Patriot Way consists of:

 

1. Tom Brady

2. Ten feet of BS

3. Bill Belichick

4. 30 feet of BS

5. A bunch of kool aid drinking assistants chanting "Do Your Job!"

 

 

0.  Ernie Adams, Senior Offense Assistant and Director of Tells, Cheats and Dirty Tricks

 

 

[YoloinOhio]

7 minutes ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

Vrabel In Tennessee is from the Pats*** tree so to speak 

 

They have had some success 

 

Not many other Belicheat offshoots have 

 

The segue -  Brady or Belichick? 
 

one or the other or was it both. 
 

sure you can argue Matt Cassel and 11 wins. Or was it just a good team all around?

 

And the Refs favoritism 

I don’t consider Vrabel from that tree since he never coached there. He’s from the Bill O Brien tree though I suppose 

[dpberr]

The only time period in recent memory where I remember the Lions being somewhat consistently "good" was all the way back in the Wayne Fontes era where they got close to the SB in 1991.

 

Jim Caldwell is the only Lions coach since Joe Schmidt in 1972 to have a winning record, and it's barely a winning record at .503.

 

The Fords (husband and wife) never hired the right people. 

 

I expect now that ownership is in the hands of Sheila Ford Hamp, there's a chance things will be different there because although a Ford, she's cut from a different cloth than her parents and even her brother, Bill. 

 

I don't think she will keep Quinn and Patricia - they are as good as gone.

 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

7 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

I don’t consider Vrabel from that tree since he never coached there. He’s from the Bill O Brien tree though I suppose 

he played for the Pats and he has used a few of the Belicheat tricks in games he’s coached. 
 

one against BB in a game IIRC 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

Things are bad in Detroit but this details how bad. 

 

TBH I think that Daboll kind of started out down that path, not relying on his assistants and not "buying in" to McDermott's belief that part of the coach's job is to figure out why the performance isn't up to standard and how to help the player improve vs. scream at them and let them figure it out or fail. 

 

It didn't help that he began in B'lo working with mostly assistants he didn't choose (OL especially).

 

I saw a big change in Daboll's approach starting about 1/3 of the way into last season (after the first Patriots game, actually) and big change in how he talks about things this season.  And changes in how McDermott seems to talk about the offense, too.  I think he has more trust in Daboll now.

To a Point.

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

21 minutes ago, Freddie's Dead said:

The Cheatriot Way is unreproducible because it's based on cheating.  It hasn't "gone wrong", it's been wrong from the beginning.

I agree, I really want a documentary done called The 6*'s. I want them to talk to people who saw the destroyed tape and dig deep into every crooked thing that the Patriots have done. 

[atlbillsfan1975]

Belichick is a proven cheater. Brady looks to be just as responsible for the Pats “dynasty”*. The longer old Bill hangs around in NE the longer, we will see the cloak slip off him and people realize he is a good HC not a great one. He is not the Nick Saban of the NFL.

Edited November 27, 2020 by atlbillsfan1975

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, A Firm Tree Does Not Fear said:

5-11 last season and likely to finish no better than 8-8 this season. not real success as of yet but not as bad as the others mentioned in the OP.

 

When I watch the Dolphins play, they just strike me as a well-coached, well-prepared football team.

 

Which is not how Detroit or the Giants strike me.

[Punching Bag]

1 minute ago, atlbillsfan1975 said:

Belichick is a proven cheater. Brady looks to be just as responsible for the Pats “dynasty”*. The longer old Bill hangs around in NE the longer we will see the cloak slip off him and people realize he is a good HC not a great one. He is not the Nick Saban of the NFL.

 

It is clothes - the emperor has no clothes.

 

The Colts were SOOO lucky that their first choice as head coach ran back home to dad.

[Ghost_002!]

Ha ha....yup it's all Brady. (Sarcasm)

 

McDermott is 1-9 against him, barely beat him with his covid squad...and still gotta play him again.

 

Just win one first and stop griping about the pats...

 

7-3, first in the AFC east and can't help but talk about NE...tortured.

Edited November 27, 2020 by Ghost_002!

[stevewin]

The one thing people seem to be missing is the most obvious IMO - the finely honed system of cheating that Bellicheat has put in place over decades is impossible to replicate.  That is the true "Patriot Way".  McDaniels tried it in Denver but ultimately failed.  

 

Also 6) - supports what I believe - Brady is more a product of that "system" than anything

 

[BornAgainBillsFan]

7 minutes ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

I agree, I really want a documentary done called The 6*'s. I want them to talk to people who saw the destroyed tape and dig deep into every crooked thing that the Patriots have done. 

 

Somebody can try, but Goodell will have that film destroyed, too.

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

15 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

When I watch the Dolphins play, they just strike me as a well-coached, well-prepared football team.

 

Which is not how Detroit or the Giants strike me.

time will tell but not crowning him a success, yet.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

15 minutes ago, A Firm Tree Does Not Fear said:

time will tell but not crowning him a success, yet.

 

Fair.  I'm just pointing out that one can't entirely point at record as a question of whether or not a team is fundamentally sound with good coaching.

 

The team we're about to face would be one example.

[Coffeesforclosers]

That's probably because Flores is the first Patriot Way imitator to realize the difference between management and leadership.  When his fellow Patriot OC designed a complex offense that nobody on the team understood and wouldn't change it, Flores canned him and brought in Chan.  My guess is that was after the OC did the whole thing where he tore down his players in public and by name for not working hard enough or whatever.

 

Flores realized he had to earn respect to get production, and to earn respect he had to understand his players as people.  Patricia is learning this lesson too little too late per the article, but Flores didn't repeat the mistake of walking into a new organization convinced it was his way or the highway. And anybody that didn't like it wasn't smart or dedicated enough to understand the brilliance of what he was doing.

 

 

[Doc]

They obviously don't replicate the cheating and don't have Ernie Adams, so...

[1ManRaid]

1 hour ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

This is really fascinating.

 

I actually have no doubt that the “patriot way” works in theory. It’s just impossible to implement in practice. I suspect that Bellichick lucking into it by having Tom Brady and early success and then having a few other key players who bought in— and that was just the right recipe to establish his culture.  
 

You’re not going to get any buy in, unless you are winning. 

 

Oh, like communism!  Don't tell those hip edgy college students...

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

15 minutes ago, 1ManRaid said:

 

Oh, like communism!  Don't tell those hip edgy college students...

haha. That’s actually a pretty good comparison. Or Maybe more like totalitarianism? 
 

Totalitarianism works if you surround yourself with people who “buy in,” there are no dissenters, and you produce successful results. 

 

[Dr. K]

17 minutes ago, 1ManRaid said:

 

Oh, like communism!  Don't tell those hip edgy college students...

Or libertarianism

[BuffaloRebound]

Would agree with the fact that Belichik assistants finding very little success outside New England points to a combo of Brady and the cheating culture being almost impossible to replicate.  

[The Frankish Reich]

3 hours ago, FeelingOnYouboty said:

The only NE coach who’s had some success is Flores but it’s still too early to judge him.

 

Thank God for Beane and McDermott. I’m so grateful!

Bill O'Brien: it ended poorly, but ...

... until this season: 5 out of 6 seasons with a winning record, including with guys like Ryan Fitzpatrick and Brian Hoyer as his principal starting QB.

I know the Belichick mystique is built around his dual role as successful coach and GM. But O'Brien the coach was an overall success, undone by O'Brien the GM in his last couple seasons.

Edited November 27, 2020 by The Frankish Reich

[Mr. WEO]

4 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

Things are bad in Detroit but this details how bad. 

 

 

 

Then you have the much discussed Bill O’Brien debacle in Houston and this on Joe Judge from last week -

 

 

 

"very dirty name"?  lol wtf...

 

Detroit has sucked for generations:  5 seasons of 10 or more wins in the last 50 years.   They are 1-10 in playoff games over that period.  Their most successful stretch was "the Wayne Fontes Era".

 

 

Edited November 27, 2020 by Mr. WEO

[Jerome007]

I always wonder how a crazy dude like Gronk could function and even thrive in that grating environment. For players to buy in, they have to win, otherwise it's just too mcuh abuse. I don't thin kit's coincidence 5 players opted out this year after Brady left... Though another totalitarian, Coughlin, somehow changed his ways and got the team following him again after plain ole mutiny. Even winning a Superbowl after that happened.

 

As for Brady being "beta" to take the abuse, I would have thought this typical Brady envy ha ha, but Arians chewed him HARD at the beginning of the year so it seems legit. 

[stuvian]

3 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

I think the lack of success from the Belichick coaching tree, especially when compared to the Parcells and Andy Reid trees, is because when you are an assistant coach in New England, Bill micro-manages everything. Belichick doesn't develop coaches, he simply instructs them on how to do things his way.  When his coaches finally get a head coaching gig and leave New England they suffer from that lack of personal growth and development.  Most of these guys go off to another team and try to be Bill Belichick, like Matt Patricia is doing, and it just doesn't work.  

 

The other thing these fledgling coaches don't have is the incredible good fortune to find a unicorn like Brady, a generational talent at QB who is also beta-male enough to tolerate the constant abuse of his head coach even after numerous championships and MVPs.  What Belichick did in New England is not reproducible elsewhere and I think the rest of the League is finally starting to figure that out.

 

 

if the fruit on the tree is any indication, BB hires sycophants not independent charismatic thinkers that made great HCs

[NoSaint]

This is an easy one to extrapolate to our own lives.

 

having a boss that’s a prick sucks unless you are getting fat bonuses, and recognition. Even then it’s not a ton of fun and not everyone’s cut out for that environment.

 

learning how to be a boss from a prick often is not a roadmap to gain success

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, Dr. K said:

Or libertarianism

Add “ism” to about any word and it then becomes its own worst enemy over time, look at capitalism, earning and creating wealth, on its face a very good thing, then with a pinch of greed it stops serving the greater good, and you get the 1% with all the wealth... the cycle is repeatedly occurring on every topic. Ism’s are known to be bad for people in every walk of life. To include football players. 

[iccrewman112]

3 hours ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

The Patriot Way consists of:

 

1. Tom Brady

2. Ten feet of BS

3. Bill Belichick

4. 30 feet of BS

5. A bunch of kool aid drinking assistants chanting "Do Your Job!"

 

Wait where does cheating fit in this list? 

[Warcodered]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

When I watch the Dolphins play, they just strike me as a well-coached, well-prepared football team.

 

Which is not how Detroit or the Giants strike me.

Yeah pretty much he's been fairly effective and seems real competent. The thing that makes me wonder is what he did with Tua last game, it made no sense to me.