Da webster guy Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 The sack numbers were great, but even if PFF is a joke, there has to be SOME merit in their analysis no? PFF gives Jordan Phillips an overall grade of 51.8, which ranks 153rd out of 197 defensive linemen in the league. His pass-rush grade of 60.5 ranks 94th among defensive linemen. Of Phillips' 583 snaps in 2019, 362 were in pass rush (putting him 40th among D-linemen) and 218 were against the run, according to PFF. He played 52.4% of the Bills' defensive snaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sven233 Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 (edited) The eyeball test says he was a pretty good pass rusher, but while he did make a lot of plays on his own, some of the sack production he had was the direct result of someone else pushing the play and Phillips finishing it up. Also, in my opinion, for someone his size, he was pretty bad against the run. I know it's not a popular opinion around here, but I am not re-signing him for anything more than 7.5 at the very most. I think he is a 6-7 million dollar player. I think there may be a team or 2 that looks at the sack numbers and overpays him. I don't want to be that team, especially with Horrible Harry coming back. He was our best lineman when he was playing early. Edited January 18, 2020 by sven233 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Otreply Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 See previous thread on the, shall we say, general meaningfulness of Pffts scoring system. Go Bills!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuckyBoys Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 He's a rotational D lineman who does not play well against the run Probably will get a nice payday hopefully somewhere else 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSE Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 (edited) You lost me at PFF. I love it when people write that. . Edited January 18, 2020 by HOUSE 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 4 minutes ago, HOUSE said: You lost me at PFF. I love it when people write that. . You'll be hearing from my copyright attorney 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterpan Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 McDermott said Phillips was playing great in a mid season presser. I trust McDermott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TroutDog Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 It’s not just PFF: all of the All-22 reviews I read during the season basically said he was a liability in the run game for stretches. The Athletic pointed it out regularly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 Clearly it's coming from The Bills Front Office. They want to deflate his market value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 55 minutes ago, Da webster guy said: The sack numbers were great, but even if PFF is a joke, there has to be SOME merit in their analysis no? PFF gives Jordan Phillips an overall grade of 51.8, which ranks 153rd out of 197 defensive linemen in the league. His pass-rush grade of 60.5 ranks 94th among defensive linemen. Of Phillips' 583 snaps in 2019, 362 were in pass rush (putting him 40th among D-linemen) and 218 were against the run, according to PFF. He played 52.4% of the Bills' defensive snaps. he wasn’t awful, and he wasn’t top 3. Dude was a good rotational piece. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hebert19 Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 Hes a rotational player and should be paid as one. If he gets offered starter type money then let him go. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 40 minutes ago, sven233 said: The eyeball test says he was a pretty good pass rusher, but while he did make a lot of plays on his own, some of the sack production he had was the direct result of someone else pushing the play and Phillips finishing it up. Also, in my opinion, for someone his size, he was pretty bad against the run. I know it's not a popular opinion around here, but I am not re-signing him for anything more than 7.5 at the very most. I think he is a 6-7 million dollar player. I think there may be a team or 2 that looks at the sack numbers and overpays him. I don't want to be that team, especially with Horrible Harry coming back. He was our best lineman when he was playing early. Perhaps this is not what you mean, but once again, Horrible Harry(1tech) has a different role than Jordan Phillips (3tech). I would be willing to go up in $$ a bit from that or sweeten (more guaranteed) to re-sign him because I think he's going to look over at Lotulelei and say Um Hello! But overall, to the Bills he's a rotational DT who has limitations and who sometimes free-lances in pursuit of sacks to the detriment of the team. Example of what I mean is vs Pittsburgh, where he drew a defensive Offside penalty. It wasn't, but most refs are gonna call it that way and it made it 1st and 5. To another team, he's gonna be seen as a rare penetrating 3-tech who gets sacks and you're right, he's gonna find some team that will pay him closer to his desired "chicken" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irv Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 Many of his sacks and Shaq’s were poor blocking by the opponents O-lines. They just ran straight in and plowed the QB. I’d rather pay a guy like Hughes who gets held every play and earns his sacks. Adios Phillips. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 I don't care about PFF rankings and 153rd out of 197 seems too low to me. But I do think he was overrated by Bills fans this year. I will say that he finishes plays well, when he gets to the QB he's going to get the sack more often than not. Which gives him gaudy sack numbers. However I don't think he makes enough plays across the board. So on a play to play basis he is replaceable. Especially in the run game, where he was terrible most of the year. Ideally we'd be able to bring him back at a sensible price. He's good rotational depth if nothing else, and you can put him on the field on obvious passing downs. But I think some team will overpay him based on his sack numbers and I would just let him walk in that case. We drafted his replacement in the 1st round last year, he was never going to be part of the long term plan. We'll find someone cheaper that can back up Ed Oliver in the draft or free agency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 Jordan Phillips made the most of his opportunities this season to record "splash" plays that he and his agent will point to in negotiations. The rest of us saw a guy who disappeared a lot of the time and while his energy and enthusiasm are infectious, he does not deserve to be paid at the level he seeks. Jordan will not be a Buffalo Bill next season, I'm almost certain of it. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheyCallMeAndy Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 I think he and Spain will be looking for BIG paydays and someone else will overpay for their services. If I had to chose, I pick Phillips but I don't think he has the production in 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALLEN1QB Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 Personally I think he is way overrated and not worth that kind of money he thinks he is let him walk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike in Horseheads Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 1 hour ago, sven233 said: The eyeball test says he was a pretty good pass rusher, but while he did make a lot of plays on his own, some of the sack production he had was the direct result of someone else pushing the play and Phillips finishing it up. Also, in my opinion, for someone his size, he was pretty bad against the run. I know it's not a popular opinion around here, but I am not re-signing him for anything more than 7.5 at the very most. I think he is a 6-7 million dollar player. I think there may be a team or 2 that looks at the sack numbers and overpays him. I don't want to be that team, especially with Horrible Harry coming back. He was our best lineman when he was playing early. I'd rather keep Shaq 17 minutes ago, eball said: Jordan Phillips made the most of his opportunities this season to record "splash" plays that he and his agent will point to in negotiations. The rest of us saw a guy who disappeared a lot of the time and while his energy and enthusiasm are infectious, he does not deserve to be paid at the level he seeks. Jordan will not be a Buffalo Bill next season, I'm almost certain of it. I would agree on that. Outside rush pushed a lot of it to him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 1 minute ago, Mike in Horseheads said: I'd rather keep Shaq I'd rather keep both, but it seems pretty clear from what he said that if Beane has to choose, it'll be Shaq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 Sacks are often a group effort. If the DE's or blitzing LBs force the QB to step up in the pocket or try to run up the gut--right into the mitts of DTs, like Phillips--who's really making the play there? IMO, it seemed like Jordan was the beneficiary of that group effort a lot this year... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike in Horseheads Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I'd rather keep both, but it seems pretty clear from what he said that if Beane has to choose, it'll be Shaq Next few years will be interesting, they can't keep everybody that will want a big payday so tough choices will have to be made. Thats going to show a lot of what Beane and McD are made of. It was easy to dump the trash when they started Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
costrovs Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 Phillips was our best D-lineman on the team this past season. I can't understand how some people don't realize that. just keeping it simple, stats and eyeball test says he was. Lawson sucks, Hughes isn't as good as people think he is, Murphy isn't great either, and Lotulelei sucks also, and Oliver isn't gonna be what everyone thinks he's gonna be ( no, i'm not an Oliver fan - one of the few people that disliked the pick), I hope I'm wrong on Oliver, but he's undersized, and cocky. I'd take 6'5" 340+ lb D-linemen over 6'1 <300 lbs linemen everyday. One thing that really confuses me, is that some of you don't want to resign Phillips, but totally wanted OBD to sign Lawson to his 5th year contract last off-season ($10+ million). Phillips had just about the same number of sacks (9.5) in this year alone, than Lawson put up in his first 3 years here (10). He had 6.5 this year. You guys wanted to pay someone who hasn't done jack for 3 years, $10+ million, but sit there and say, 'hmmm, I don't really wanna pay Phillips $10 million a year, even though he played way better than Lawson, or Hughes, or anybody for that matter. But I'll be more than happy to shell out $10 million to a guy like Lawson who hasn't done a thing.' wtf people? Now, would I pay Phillips $10+ million? I'd give him $8M - $12M a year over 4 or 5 years. Hell, Kyle Williams was getting around $10M a year over his last 3 years here. And Phillips has more sacks and more TFL's this past year, than Williams had his last 2 seasons here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan in Cleveland Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 The point that people are missing is the opportunity cost of letting Phillip's walk. It's not the money that Phillips will cost them in 2020 that is the issue. It's the capital they will need to use to replace him. I assume the Bill's feel Oliver will be the starting 3 technique DT. That means the cost to replace Phillip's is what it will take to find a rotational 3 tech DT. That is probably a mid level FA or a 3rd round draft pick. So the question is for me, do you tag Phillips and overpay him when there is plenty of cap space to do so, OR do you let him walk and try to find a replacement? Bills historically have not used the tag well at all. The other upside of letting him walk would be the comp pick factor. But even Beane said this is probably not the year to have a net loss of free agents. That tells me they will ne active in free agency adding to the RB, WR, and both lines well before the draft. After all is said, I tag Phillip's for leverage and see if a reasonable contract can be worked out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulus Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 I hope he stays, tbh. I doubt a GM will pay him anywhere near what he thinks he is worth, but I do think someone will overpay and he'll leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 (edited) Phillips never really jumped off the screen at me. So I wouldn't totally dispute the ratings. I felt Shaq Lawson made more of an impact. Not sure what PFF rated Shaq. Edited January 18, 2020 by Buffalo_Stampede Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 Short answer is 100% NO, he did not play poorly. I watched a ton of DT tape this season and from what I saw he played inconsistently, but certainly not poorly. When he was in the right packages and right playcalls (ie when down/distance meant he could use his first step and penetrate to QB) he was terrific. He just can't be relied upon to do much else well enough, often enough. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuckyBoys Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 If we cant stop the run there is no sacks. Phillips is not good against the run. He's actually surprisingly poor given he's the largest D lineman we have. 9.5 sacks is nice and he's a nice rotational piece in obvious passing situations. Teams overpay in free agency so lets let someone else do it. I think if teams look at film they will see the same thing. Lot of the sacks (and this applies to everyone but Hughes) were unimpeded from blocking miscues/stunts and coverage. I didn't see Phillips beating his blocker or pushing the pocket into the qb on a regular basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 2 hours ago, Irv said: Many of his sacks and Shaq’s were poor blocking by the opponents O-lines. They just ran straight in and plowed the QB. I’d rather pay a guy like Hughes who gets held every play and earns his sacks. Adios Phillips. Maybe Hughes earns his sacks, but definitely not enough of them. But I agree. Let Phillips walk unless he signs rotational DT contract numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
costrovs Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 Phillips rotates with Star correct? So you guys rather keep Star and let Phillips walk? Stars TFL this past season is 3, where Phillips is 13. Phillips is better against the run than Star, way better. Give Phillips a nice contract this year, then at the end of the season cut Star. Then replace star with a rookie in the 2021 draft. Problem solved. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Brown Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 Love the energy he brings to the team. He had his best performances in our three key away game victories (Titans, Cowboys, Steelers). I trust the experts I guess but would love to see him back in the rotation if he doesn't get what he hopes for in the open market. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LB48 Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 3 hours ago, DuckyBoys said: He's a rotational D lineman who does not play well against the run Probably will get a nice payday hopefully somewhere else So true. Miami didn't just release him because he couldn't keep his mouth shut! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 48 minutes ago, costrovs said: Phillips rotates with Star correct? So you guys rather keep Star and let Phillips walk? Stars TFL this past season is 3, where Phillips is 13. Phillips is better against the run than Star, way better. Give Phillips a nice contract this year, then at the end of the season cut Star. Then replace star with a rookie in the 2021 draft. Problem solved. Incorrect. Phillips rotates with Ed Oliver. Horrible Harry rotates with Star. Phillips/Oliver 3tech. Harry/Star 1tech Phillips and Lotulelei are not interchangeable. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rc2catch Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: Phillips never really jumped off the screen at me. So I wouldn't totally dispute the ratings. I felt Shaq Lawson made more of an impact. Not sure what PFF rated Shaq. That’s exactly my feelings on it. Most of the time I wouldn’t notice Phillips was even in the game. When Shaq came in I could usually see a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dopey Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 2 hours ago, costrovs said: Phillips was our best D-lineman on the team this past season. I can't understand how some people don't realize that. just keeping it simple, stats and eyeball test says he was. Lawson sucks, Hughes isn't as good as people think he is, Murphy isn't great either, and Lotulelei sucks also, and Oliver isn't gonna be what everyone thinks he's gonna be ( no, i'm not an Oliver fan - one of the few people that disliked the pick), I hope I'm wrong on Oliver, but he's undersized, and cocky. I'd take 6'5" 340+ lb D-linemen over 6'1 <300 lbs linemen everyday. One thing that really confuses me, is that some of you don't want to resign Phillips, but totally wanted OBD to sign Lawson to his 5th year contract last off-season ($10+ million). Phillips had just about the same number of sacks (9.5) in this year alone, than Lawson put up in his first 3 years here (10). He had 6.5 this year. You guys wanted to pay someone who hasn't done jack for 3 years, $10+ million, but sit there and say, 'hmmm, I don't really wanna pay Phillips $10 million a year, even though he played way better than Lawson, or Hughes, or anybody for that matter. But I'll be more than happy to shell out $10 million to a guy like Lawson who hasn't done a thing.' wtf people? Now, would I pay Phillips $10+ million? I'd give him $8M - $12M a year over 4 or 5 years. Hell, Kyle Williams was getting around $10M a year over his last 3 years here. And Phillips has more sacks and more TFL's this past year, than Williams had his last 2 seasons here. so Phillips is the only reason on the dline that we had one of the best defenses this past year?!? I call bull on that one. He had a really good year, but he didn't do it on his own. I'm not here to say pay him or don't. Just calling bs on your "the whole dline except for Jordan sucks" comments. ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
78thealltimegreat Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 Once again Pro football focus had Dak Prescott as the second most valuable player in the league and with 21 behind him he’s not even the most important person on his own offense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All_Pro_Bills Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 I expect the Bills to make what they think is a reasonable offer but not break the bank or go outside "the plan". If he signs great if not and some other team offers outrageous term and money then he'd be wise to take it and maybe the Bills get a compensatory pick and find a better value replacement through free agency or the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCbillsfan Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 2 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said: The point that people are missing is the opportunity cost of letting Phillip's walk. It's not the money that Phillips will cost them in 2020 that is the issue. It's the capital they will need to use to replace him. I assume the Bill's feel Oliver will be the starting 3 technique DT. That means the cost to replace Phillip's is what it will take to find a rotational 3 tech DT. That is probably a mid level FA or a 3rd round draft pick. So the question is for me, do you tag Phillips and overpay him when there is plenty of cap space to do so, OR do you let him walk and try to find a replacement? Bills historically have not used the tag well at all. The other upside of letting him walk would be the comp pick factor. But even Beane said this is probably not the year to have a net loss of free agents. That tells me they will ne active in free agency adding to the RB, WR, and both lines well before the draft. After all is said, I tag Phillip's for leverage and see if a reasonable contract can be worked out. You let him walk and find a cheaper replacement. Most likely, Oliver will improve this off-season and be ready for more snaps. Get somebody better than Liuget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
costrovs Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 31 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Incorrect. Phillips rotates with Ed Oliver. Horrible Harry rotates with Star. Phillips/Oliver 3tech. Harry/Star 1tech Phillips and Lotulelei are not interchangeable. That's why I was asking, I wasn't sure. 15 minutes ago, Dopey said: so Phillips is the only reason on the dline that we had one of the best defenses this past year?!? I call bull on that one. He had a really good year, but he didn't do it on his own. I'm not here to say pay him or don't. Just calling bs on your "the whole dline except for Jordan sucks" comments. ? Give me 1 D-linemen that played better than Jordan this past year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dopey Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 (edited) 19 minutes ago, costrovs said: That's why I was asking, I wasn't sure. Give me 1 D-linemen that played better than Jordan this past year. There's a big difference between " who played better" and "they all sucked". Read my post again, if you need to. Trying to answer that question to someone who thought Phillips could replace Star is a waste of time. If you think he put the whole dline on his back, Dopey wants some of what you're smoking. Puff puff give... Edited January 18, 2020 by Dopey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
costrovs Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 Just now, Dopey said: There's a big difference between " who played better" and "they all sucked". Read my post again, if you need to. Trying to answer that question to someone who thought Phillips could replace Star is a waste of time. If you think he put the whole dline on his back, Dopey wants some of what you're smoking. Well 1st off.... it's puff puff pass, not puff puff give...... ? 2nd... Harry missed most of the year, so that Harry/Star rotation is incorrect. 3rd.... no one played better, and I didn't say they all suck. and no he didn't put the whole d-line on his back. So you have Phillips/Oliver and Star/Harry. 0-tech, 1-tech, 3-tech, tech-9, it shouldn't really matter(i'm talking 4-3) DT is a DT. DE is a DE. it shouldn't matter where you line up. This is the NFL, not pop warner or High School. You should be expected to play either or. Screw what the announcers or people call as 1-tech or 3-tech. I've seen them line up at all positions. Kyle Williams has lined up at 0, 1, 3 and 5. Bruce Smith has lined up at 0, 1, 3, 5 and 7. Kyle plays better as a DT. and Bruce plays better as a DE. regardless of technique, DT is a DT. DE is a DE. Jordan can't replace Star? Where the lines of Hughes/Oliver/Jordan/Lawson never on the field together at all this year?(spoiler- they were) I mean, doesn't Hughes/Oliver/Jordan/Lawson look like a better line than Hughes/Oliver/Star/Lawson or Hughes/Oliver/Harry/Lawson or Hughes/Jordan/Star/Lawson or Hughes/Jordan/Harry/Lawson? Harry went down early in the season so the jury is still out on him, and Star cant do a damn thing. If Phillips can't replace Star, then Oliver can. It'll still be the same thing though. Jordan and Oliver on the field at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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