Tre/Allen for Mahomes Outcome

[BillsfaninSB]

Although Josh is still developing, can we put to rest the 2017 trade down was not a disaster?

 

KC netted Mahones while the Bills landed White and then Allen the following year with the draft capital.  Seems like a win-win deal right now. 

[billsfan1959]

Both are winners, IMHO.

[NewEra]

It’s not a disaster.  There isn’t a chief fan in the world that would take that trade back.  There are many Bills fans that would.  I’m as big a Tre and JA fan as there is, but Mahomes may eventually be the best QB ever.  Emphasis on “may eventually be”

[Buffalo Junction]

Still too early in their careers to say. Tre is certainly a hit. Allen still needs to improve. If one of them reaches HOF status it was worthwhile.... I’ll get back to you in 15-20 years. 

[Aussie Joe]

Nice thread...

 

We haven’t debated this enough..

[Hapless Bills Fan]

12 minutes ago, BillsfaninSB said:

Although Josh is still developing, can we put to rest the 2017 trade down was not a disaster?

 

KC netted Mahones while the Bills landed White and then Allen the following year with the draft capital.  Seems like a win-win deal right now. 

 

No I don’t think we can.  If Allen develops into a quality franchise QB, yes.  But while he’s shown promise, he’s not there yet.

 

No other position is worth passing up a shot at a true franchise QB, and Mahomes looks to be Truth in that regard.

[BuffaloMatt]

If Bills would have drafted Mahomes he would have sucked. The curse wasn't broken yet. 

[Logic]

Oh for *****'s sake...

[Dr. Who]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

No I don’t think we can.  If Allen develops into a quality franchise QB, yes.  But while he’s shown promise, he’s not there yet.

 

No other position is worth passing up a shot at a true franchise QB, and Mahomes looks to be Truth in that regard.

This is the correct answer. I got a Josh Allen jersey for Christmas, so I sure hope he is the Buffalo Truth.

[Teddy KGB]

If we get farther in the playoffs then then we can have this discussion. 

[Utah John]

3 minutes ago, BuffaloMatt said:

If Bills would have drafted Mahomes he would have sucked. The curse wasn't broken yet. 

If the Bills had drafted Mahomes, he would have struggled.  It wasn't the curse, it was the lack of skill players and a crappy O line and a culture of losing.  He has excelled in KC partly because of his enormous talent but also because he had the right coach, a great collection of offensive talent, and a rookie year where he could just watch and learn.  A perfect situation for him to blossom.  He wouldn't have had that in Buffalo.

[Renobillsfan]

I would go a step further and declare that the Bills got a Top 1-2 QB in the 2018 draft.  What else could we have asked for?  Forget about purely statistics.  JA may never be worthy of that high of a pick based on purely stats.  All I would focus on is his TD-  INT ratio, QB completion % and the most important (IMHO), Wins.  The jury is still out on Darnold, Baker Mayfield may go down as a bust (or simply overrated), Rosen may be out of the league next year and that leaves only Lamar Jackson.  I wouldn't so easily declare LJ as the best QB in the 2018 class, at this point.  He has had an incredible year but so did another "transcendent" QB in RGIII.  How did that work out for RG after defenses learned to gameplan his running tendencies?  So, to get back to the topic on discussion, Bills got what I believe is a top flight cover CB in White and a QB that has led the team to its best season in 20 years.  Not a bad haul, even by comparison of an All-Pro QB in Mahomes.   

[Dr. Who]

4 minutes ago, Utah John said:

If the Bills had drafted Mahomes, he would have struggled.  It wasn't the curse, it was the lack of skill players and a crappy O line and a culture of losing.  He has excelled in KC partly because of his enormous talent but also because he had the right coach, a great collection of offensive talent, and a rookie year where he could just watch and learn.  A perfect situation for him to blossom.  He wouldn't have had that in Buffalo.

Impossible to prove a counterfactual, but this is likely right.

[Seasons1992]

9 minutes ago, Teddy KGB said:

If we get farther in the playoffs then then we can have this discussion. 

 

So you're saying just keep "hanging avround?"

 

 

[BuffaloHokie13]

The impacts are bigger than this though. Looking at the picks involved with Josh Allen and Pat Mahomes we ultimately

 

Got:

Josh Allen 2018-7

Tre White 2017-27

Zay Jones 2017-37

Dion Dawkins 2017-63

Ray Ray McCloud 2018-187

Austin Proehl 2018-255

EJ Gaines w/ 2018-56 used to acquire 2018-7

 

Missed:

Pat Mahomes 2017-10

Vita Vea 2018-12

Billy Price 2018-21

Gerald Everett 2017-44

MJ Stewart 2018-53

Duke Dawson 2018-56

Duke Riley 2017-75

John Johnson 2017-91

Damontae Kazee 2017-149

Brian Hill 2017-156

Andrew Brown 2018-158

Sebastian Joseph-Day 2018-195

Sammy Watkins for 2018-56 and EJ Gaines

Cordy Glenn for 2018-12 and 2018-187

Edited December 27, 2019 by BuffaloHokie13

[GG]

Except that it's not a direct Mahomes for Allen and White swap.  

[Troll Toll]

IMO Josh will be better off in the long haul for having fought to find success through the worst rookie QB scenario you could imagine. Mahomes may be on the Marino track where we’ve already seen his peak. He also had a very scary injury this year. Things should only get easier for Josh and harder for Mahomes from here.

[BillsfaninSB]

5 minutes ago, GG said:

Except that it's not a direct Mahomes for Allen and White swap.  

No but without that trade we likely would have never been able to get Josh. 

[theAteam]

My question (which is heavily laced with hindsight vision) is if we took Mahomes at 10 might we have still been able to trade up for White? You'd lose out on Zay Jones and/or Dion Dawkins who I think you could do without in this scenario.

[billspro]

52 minutes ago, NewEra said:

It’s not a disaster.  There isn’t a chief fan in the world that would take that trade back.  There are many Bills fans that would.  I’m as big a Tre and JA fan as there is, but Mahomes may eventually be the best QB ever.  Emphasis on “may eventually be”

I would obviously take Mahommes over both of them. Saying that the trade still worked out well for us. I think Allen can be a Big Ben level QB and White could be the best DB in the league. There is also no way to know how Mahommes would have played in Buffalo. He probably would have been good but I don’t think he would be anywhere near the level he reached in KC. We don’t have the coaching or the talent KC has on offence. No one would look great with the oline and WRs we put together. 

[CodeMonkey]

1 hour ago, BillsfaninSB said:

Although Josh is still developing, can we put to rest the 2017 trade down was not a disaster?

 

KC netted Mahones while the Bills landed White and then Allen the following year with the draft capital.  Seems like a win-win deal right now. 

You could also ask yourself ... would you trade Tre and Allen for Mahomes.  That gives you a similar, but different perspective on that situation.

[RaoulDuke79]

Damn....I thought the Mahomes talk ended when Lamar Jackson started setting the world on fire.

[BillsfaninSB]

3 minutes ago, CodeMonkey said:

You could also ask yourself ... would you trade Tre and Allen for Mahomes.  That gives you a similar, but different perspective on that situation.

I would not.  Maybe I’m being overly optimistic but I think Josh will improve considerably.  He is the right guy for this team right now.

[Augie]

PLEASE don’t poke THAT bear!!!

[auburnbillsbacker]

The Bills selected really good players.  The Chiefs won the trade.

[njbuff]

Why do we need this comparison?

 

Mahomes got to sit a year on a READY-MADE offense.............

 

while Allen started IMMEDIATELY on an offense that needed a complete makeover and still has to be developed.

 

This is a silly comparison bar none.

 

The question should be............

 

Would Mahomes have made it out alive if he had to start on the Bills 2018 offense?

[JaCrispy]

If the Bills had Mahomes they’d be Super Bowl favorites...let that sink in for a moment...

Edited December 27, 2019 by JaCrispy

[Gugny]

Between the two teams, zero rings since the sky came crashing down (aka "the day the Bills didn't take Mahomes).

 

It is definitely time to put this stupid argument to bed.  The teams were in completely different places when this draft took place.

 

The outrage about it has been asinine since day one, IMO.

[C.Biscuit97]

6 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

If the Bills had Mahomes they’d be Super Bowl favorites...let that sink in for a moment...

They might be undefeated 

9 minutes ago, njbuff said:

Why do we need this comparison?

 

Mahomes got to sit a year on a READY-MADE offense.............

 

while Allen started IMMEDIATELY on an offense that needed a complete makeover and still has to be developed.

 

This is a silly comparison bar none.

 

The question should be............

 

Would Mahomes have made it out alive if he had to start on the Bills 2018 offense?

Mahomes nearly carried the 2nd worst defense to the SB.  Allen has played with a top 3 defense both years. You don’t think Brown and Beasley would be monsters with Mahomes?

[Gugny]

11 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

If the Bills had Mahomes they’d be Super Bowl favorites...let that sink in for a moment...

 

If the Bills had Kelce and Hill, they'd be Super Bowl favorites.

[JoPoy88]

1 hour ago, BillsfaninSB said:

Although Josh is still developing, can we put to rest the 2017 trade down was not a disaster?

 

KC netted Mahones while the Bills landed White and then Allen the following year with the draft capital.  Seems like a win-win deal right now. 

certainly not a disaster (so far) but it’s too early to say it’s a win-win. I’d think we’d have to wait until Allen gets renewed (or gets to the Super Bowl ?) in order to say that. KC got a MVP QB in the deal, so I have to lean their way right now.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

36 minutes ago, Augie said:

PLEASE don’t poke THAT bear!!!

 

Somehow when I initially read this, I read it as “please don’t poke THAT PART of the bear!!!!”

 

17 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

They might be undefeated 

Mahomes nearly carried the 2nd worst defense to the SB.  Allen has played with a top 3 defense both years. You don’t think Brown and Beasley would be monsters with Mahomes?

 

That’s a really good question.  Let me just say I think Hill >>> Brown and Kelce >>> Knox at this point.  

The narrative on Mahomes is that he’s Mr Pinpoint Accurate but let me just say I’ve seen both Hill and especially Kelce make plenty a ZIP Code catch, and many a contested catch

[MJS]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

It’s not a disaster.  There isn’t a chief fan in the world that would take that trade back.  There are many Bills fans that would.  I’m as big a Tre and JA fan as there is, but Mahomes may eventually be the best QB ever.  Emphasis on “may eventually be”

Best ever? Haha, ok.

 

I don't see many claiming that the trade was a disaster. Gotta give the Chiefs the edge right now. They drafted an MVP QB with their pick, but both teams have quality, key players from the trade. In the future it will hopefully be viewed as more of an even trade, because that would mean Josh has seriously developed.

Edited December 27, 2019 by MJS

[Foxx]

1 hour ago, CodeMonkey said:

You could also ask yourself ... would you trade Tre and Allen for Mahomes.  That gives you a similar, but different perspective on that situation.

You may ask yourself
What is that beautiful house?
You may ask yourself
Where does that highway go to?
And you may ask yourself
Am I right? Am I wrong?
And you may say yourself
"My God! What have I done?"

[Gugny]

2 minutes ago, Foxx said:

You may ask yourself
What is that beautiful house?
You may ask yourself
Where does that highway go to?
And you may ask yourself
Am I right? Am I wrong?
And you may say yourself
"My God! What have I done?"

 

And just like the conversations about this topic:  Same as it ever was ... Same as it ever was ....

[Rico]

Love Tre, love Josh, ***** Mahomes.

[CincyBillsFan]

Seems pretty obvious to me that BOTH teams made out on the trade.  Not everything is zero sum.

 

KC got a potential generational talent at QB.  And in 2017 was there a team better prepared to develop such a talent then the Chiefs?  A roster loaded with high end offensive talent; one of the finest offensive coaches in the NFL and an unselfish veteran QB willing to take Mahomes under his wing.  Even better the Chiefs did not have to start Mahomes right away and had the luxury to sit him for almost the entire 2017 to allow him to observe & grow.

 

Had Mahomes gone to the salary CAP deficient Bills in 2017 he would have floundered.  Even today, Mahomes would not be putting up the numbers in Buffalo that he is in KC.  A defensive minded coach and a lack of true game breakers would have seen to that.

 

On the Bills side they got a true shutdown corner.  Maybe the best in the NFL.  And while the jury may still be out on Allen he's closing the gap with Mahomes and appears more likely then not to be the Bills franchise QB for the next decade.  When he reaches that level, probably by next year, then yes the Bills will have made out just as well as the Chiefs in that trade.

 

 

[NoSaint]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

No I don’t think we can.  If Allen develops into a quality franchise QB, yes.  But while he’s shown promise, he’s not there yet.

 

No other position is worth passing up a shot at a true franchise QB, and Mahomes looks to be Truth in that regard.

yea, unless mahomes falls off a cliff and/or Allen makes a jump- kc won. But both those things are very possible with young QBs 

[Dopey]

1 hour ago, CodeMonkey said:

You could also ask yourself ... would you trade Tre and Allen for Mahomes.  That gives you a similar, but different perspective on that situation.

I would. In a heartbeat..

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, MJS said:

Best ever? Haha, ok.

 

I don't see many claiming that the trade was a disaster. Gotta give the Chiefs the edge right now. They drafted an MVP QB with their pick, but both teams have quality, key players from the trade. In the future it will hopefully be viewed as more of an even trade, because that would mean Josh has seriously developed.

Emphasis on could be