Victory Formation Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 I think both Shaq Lawson and Jordan Phillips need to be re-signed to incentive laden deals. Very little guaranteed money that could increase if certain triggers are met. Shaq 3yrs 28 million 15 million guaranteed Phillips 4yrs 40 million 27 million guaranteed Keep an ear open, but allow them to test the market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 18 minutes ago, JohninMinn. said: Two Words: {Marcell Dareus}. Get paid...Get fat... Get Lazy.. Get Cut or traded....and the beat goes on. I disagree with this as far as Shaq Lawson and Jordan Phillips are concerned. Both of those guys have a better work ethic and character than Dareus did. From what I can see, both extensions are low risk and should pay off in the future. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 27 minutes ago, JohninMinn. said: Two Words: {Marcell Dareus}. Get paid...Get fat... Get Lazy.. Get Cut or traded....and the beat goes on. I think this is exactly where you need to know the “man” just as much as the “player”. There is always the risk of a contract year surge in effort, but what’s in his heart. I’ve never met any of these guys, so I’ll trust the guys who have. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st pete gogolak Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 Isn't the problem that Oliver and Phillips play the same position (3-technique)? Have they been on the field at the same time much this season? Can you let Star go and hope the other Phillips can fill his spot? If we didn't have Oliver I think you go hard to keep Phillips. With Oliver on the roster (and looking to have a big 2020 season), I'm just not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conlan93 Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 Those two just mesh very well playing together. I feel shaq and JPhils feed off each others energy those are players i want in that lockeroom. Give them extensions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OZBILLS Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 Pay them. 17 minutes ago, st pete gogolak said: Isn't the problem that Oliver and Phillips play the same position (3-technique)? Can Oliver play edge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 3 hours ago, 1ManRaid said: I feel like I've read this a dozen times in the last month. Must be my mind playing tricks on me. ...nope...lookin' pretty good from here............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 2 hours ago, Socal-805 said: Mature = Feel like playing in a CONTRACT year? Nope = PASS Yes....lets let players walk on a 10 year (possibly better) team Thats brilliant So glad you are not he GM.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjnick Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 1 hour ago, ColoradoBills said: Shaq's 5th year option was 9.5 million. His new contract (wherever that is) won't be THAT high I don't think. Personally I don't think Shaq is playing well this year just for the money, he was in a weird situation and seems to be finding his way. It happens that way sometimes. If we can sign Shaq for less than 9.5 Mil a year, then ok. You never know with free agency what's going to happen. I would think 1 team out there would 'break' the bank for him. I'm more concerned with resigning Phillips and keeping the DT core together. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocCityRoller Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 3 hours ago, MJS said: He probably has, which makes him average. Nobody on our line is a dominant pass rusher. Defensive ends who can stop the run, but can't produce sacks, grow on trees. I'd say a DT that is 2nd in sacks at his position, on 65% of the snaps as Aaron Donald is in the realm of dominant. While run stuffing DEs may grow on trees, pass rushing DTs don't. This defense returned 10 of 11 starters and look what it has done. If I had to choose I'd keep Phillips, but it's closer than I thought. Phillips brings the energy that the rest of the DL feeds off of. There are also quite a few edge players available in FA. Will that DE buy into the process? Will they be a scheme fit? Lawson is starting to approach Phil Hansen territory. The last thing I want to see is Buffalo letting Lawson and Phillips walk and then have to address the Defensive line and the Offense in FA and the draft. With 90+ million there is plenty of $ available and that is before cuts and other potential losses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCT Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 3 hours ago, Socal-805 said: Maybe, and he was non-existent the prior 3 years as a 1st round pick. PASS on him PLZ. Shaq had serious injury problems when he first arrived, lost his first season completely and then i would guess still wasn’t football ready for year 2. That’s not an easy way to start your career. Given that he has seemed to make strides last year and this year, I would say he may just be a late bloomer and on a great track now. McD knows better than any of us what his value is going forward. Whether or not to resign him is going to depend on the value....and the value might be very good because of his bad start. D-line always needs rotation, so resigning him doesn’t declare him a full time every down starter, and it seems like we could do a lot worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCT Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 2 hours ago, JohninMinn. said: Two Words: {Marcell Dareus}. Get paid...Get fat... Get Lazy.. Get Cut or traded....and the beat goes on. Marcel Dareus had tons of issues from the day he arrived....tons of family issues, losing loved one to shootings, and from what it seemed he was always battling depression. Given his talent level and the fact that he was a good guy at heart with a lot of troubles, it seemed like the team stuck by him hoping to get him through his problems and reach his potential. I even remember some sideline videos of vets telling him that he could be truly great if he committed himself. Personally I’m not sure that his decline had anything to do with money, as I would guess that with all the depression he didn’t even care what was in his bank account. What a sad story really, as he was an UNBELIEVABLE talent. If his head was on straight he would probably be headed to the HOF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perk71 Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 INdeed Go Bills! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptnCoke11 Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 I can’t imagine both will be re-signed. Lots of players coming up in the next couple years with expiring contracts. Can’t sign everyone. With that said I’d sign Lawson if I had to chose between the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wppete Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 No *****. Of course we should sign them both. It’s just a matter of if we can afford them now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blitz Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 I don't think these 2 (especially Lawson) are going to get the kind of money some think. I know I posted on this before but in thinking about it I'm not sure any team can justify big money for Shaq. Phillips maybe....but dude loves it here. 4 years at 40 mill. Lawson: 3 years 25 million. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 No chance we re-sign Lawson. Someone will give him decent money, but he is not the type of DE you invest in in free agency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPS Posted December 19, 2019 Author Share Posted December 19, 2019 18 minutes ago, wppete said: No *****. Of course we should sign them both. It’s just a matter of if we can afford them now. With $90 million in cap space next year, they can afford anyone now. I think Phillips is a no-brainer. Shaq is the more controversial one, but I think his numbers stack up well against almost anyone else you could sign as an FA replacement next year, which was my main point. As to future needs, the cap space next year sets them up well. Sign Shaq and Phillips, and a WR, then fill a few gaps with middle range signings and the draft. My guess is that Beane would like to have significant rollover $$ the next several years so he can use it to give large guaranteed sums to the premium contract needs. If they commit say $50 million to signings next year, that would give them $40 million to rollover into 2021, when they have Tre, Milano, Dawkins, and Poyer coming up. Josh and Tremaine come up in 2022, but they also have 5th year options. Hyde, Harry, and Taron J are notable names for 2022, but Hughes, and most likely Starr, will be gone by then, so I really don't think it will be a question of affordability with making the decision on Phillips and Shaq. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPS Posted December 19, 2019 Author Share Posted December 19, 2019 9 minutes ago, JR in Pittsburgh said: No chance we re-sign Lawson. Someone will give him decent money, but he is not the type of DE you invest in in free agency. His numbers this year show that he's as good if not better than most of the UFA options for 2020, which is what I'm arguing. It remains to be seen if McD thinks he's a fit. While Beane and McD talk about signing your own, Shaq was not their selection, so I think it comes down to their belief on whether or not he truly fits their process? Either way, he'll get a pretty good payday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wppete Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 20 minutes ago, TPS said: With $90 million in cap space next year, they can afford anyone now. I think Phillips is a no-brainer. Shaq is the more controversial one, but I think his numbers stack up well against almost anyone else you could sign as an FA replacement next year, which was my main point. As to future needs, the cap space next year sets them up well. Sign Shaq and Phillips, and a WR, then fill a few gaps with middle range signings and the draft. My guess is that Beane would like to have significant rollover $$ the next several years so he can use it to give large guaranteed sums to the premium contract needs. If they commit say $50 million to signings next year, that would give them $40 million to rollover into 2021, when they have Tre, Milano, Dawkins, and Poyer coming up. Josh and Tremaine come up in 2022, but they also have 5th year options. Hyde, Harry, and Taron J are notable names for 2022, but Hughes, and most likely Starr, will be gone by then, so I really don't think it will be a question of affordability with making the decision on Phillips and Shaq. nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 18 minutes ago, TPS said: His numbers this year show that he's as good if not better than most of the UFA options for 2020, which is what I'm arguing. It remains to be seen if McD thinks he's a fit. While Beane and McD talk about signing your own, Shaq was not their selection, so I think it comes down to their belief on whether or not he truly fits their process? Either way, he'll get a pretty good payday. this is one of those situations where stats lie a bit. his sack numbers are inflated by the broncos game, where they pretty much blew assignments and let him go unblocked to the QB At least twice. plus, even with his good stats, he’s not the type of speed rushing end that teams typically invest him. I think he has had a solid season and someone pay him based on his production, but we can take the money we would pay him and get more of a speed disrupted kind of DE. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, JR in Pittsburgh said: this is one of those situations where stats lie a bit. his sack numbers are inflated by the broncos game, where they pretty much blew assignments and let him go unblocked to the QB At least twice. plus, even with his good stats, he’s not the type of speed rushing end that teams typically invest him. I think he has had a solid season and someone pay him based on his production, but we can take the money we would pay him and get more of a speed disrupted kind of DE. Every de gets those. Strahan set the record on favre diving. Shaq has the production of guys who are thought of much higher and have signed some big money deals. Calais campbell signed for 4/60. Frank clark was traded for a 1st and more and got 5/105. Shaq matches their production this season playing less snaps. Edited December 19, 2019 by section122 There their they're Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Allan in MD Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 7 hours ago, 1ManRaid said: I feel like I've read this a dozen times in the last month. Must be my mind playing tricks on me. Perhaps two dozen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSHMEAB Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 (edited) My prediction is that Shaq is gonna get overpaid and the 7 mil/per is a pipedream. Some team is gonna view him as a late bloomer/cusp of dominant type end, which he is not. Nice player and I WOULD resign him at 7mil/per, but I'm not buying it. I would resign Phillips because the guy gets after the QB. He's not gonna get some massive contract that'll "set the franchise back" so the fear that he stops "playing hard" just isn't a compelling argument. Gotta get a stud DE and first and foremost, which makes paying Lawson unnecessary. 22 minutes ago, JR in Pittsburgh said: this is one of those situations where stats lie a bit. his sack numbers are inflated by the broncos game, where they pretty much blew assignments and let him go unblocked to the QB At least twice. plus, even with his good stats, he’s not the type of speed rushing end that teams typically invest him. I think he has had a solid season and someone pay him based on his production, but we can take the money we would pay him and get more of a speed disrupted kind of DE. Boom. Edited December 19, 2019 by LSHMEAB 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiva Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 Extend them. Keep this group together as long as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 5 hours ago, ColoradoBills said: Shaq's 5th year option was 9.5 million. His new contract (wherever that is) won't be THAT high I don't think. Personally I don't think Shaq is playing well this year just for the money, he was in a weird situation and seems to be finding his way. It happens that way sometimes. It's likely to be in that neighborhood. He'll get close to $10 million a year easily on the open market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComradeKayAdams Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 Sign both. Overpay a bit if necessary. Many of you continue to underestimate the value of locker room culture. Lawson and Phillips are in their prime athletic years and fit in very well with this team - both on and off the field. "But Kay!" says you. "What about the salary cap?? There isn't enough money to go around for both, you silly girl!" My response is this: yes there is. Check the numbers. The team needs to spend $90+ million (according to the NFLPA) next year but has few remaining roster holes, so the money needs to go somewhere. Allen's still on his rookie contract, so Beane can afford to front-load contracts for a couple more years. If you're worried about dedicating so much money to the DL, remember that Murphy's contract is up after next year and that both Hughes and Star may be gone after 2020 as well (with very manageable dead cap hits). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T master Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 Just wrote a post about this same thing !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple haze Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, hjnick said: Good DT, definitely try to resign Phillips... Shaq is a different situation. We thought so 'highly' coming into this year that we passed on his 5th year of his deal... So this year Shaq is playing for a new deal. So has he really matured or is he just balling out THIS year so he can get a good contract? Most of the time people that are only playing for a deal revert back to their 'normal' not hair on fire performance. This is a misnomer. Shaq was playing pretty well last season too. This year he's gotten even better, but he was trending up. Fifth year option wasn't picked up because he had one year of decent production previously. Now he has two. Give him Murphy's money. That's probably what he's looking at from most teams anyway. 7 or 8 million per. Not overly expensive. Edited December 19, 2019 by purple haze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pbomb Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 10 hours ago, MJS said: He probably has, which makes him average. Nobody on our line is a dominant pass rusher. Defensive ends who can stop the run, but can't produce sacks, grow on trees. Well we are 7th in the league in sacks so someone must be doing something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 11 minutes ago, Pbomb said: Well we are 7th in the league in sacks so someone must be doing something Collectively as a team, but there isn't anyone who is dominant as a pass rusher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPS Posted December 19, 2019 Author Share Posted December 19, 2019 8 hours ago, JR in Pittsburgh said: this is one of those situations where stats lie a bit. his sack numbers are inflated by the broncos game, where they pretty much blew assignments and let him go unblocked to the QB At least twice. plus, even with his good stats, he’s not the type of speed rushing end that teams typically invest him. I think he has had a solid season and someone pay him based on his production, but we can take the money we would pay him and get more of a speed disrupted kind of DE. If you think his sack numbers are inflated, then focus on QB hits. You'd be hard-pressed to find another FA DE with his level of production. He also has the flexibility to play both end positions, and has. If you pay big money for a FA edge rusher, that person will split time with Hughes, who will be here another 2 years. I can't see them doing this..? Their most likely options: 1. Let Shaq walk: DEs are Murphy, Johnson, Hughes, Love, Draft an edge. Low cost, most likely lower production. 2. Same as #1, but sign an edge. High cost for someone splitting time with Hughes. Production impact? 3. Sign Shaq and draft an edge. High cost, position flexibility, Production the same 4. Sign Shaq, release Murphy, and draft an edge. Medium cost (save about $7 mil releasing Murphy) higher production (Shaq is starting LDE), more position flexibility. Personally, I think #4 is the best option, but I doubt they release Murphy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPS Posted December 19, 2019 Author Share Posted December 19, 2019 Wow, comparing Murphy and Shaq, the decision is a no-brainer. Trent: 574 snaps, 3 sacks, 6 QB hits, 7 TFLs, 28 TT Shaq: 435 snaps, 6.5 sacks, 17 QB hits, 12 TFLs, 30 TT It will be interesting to see how this plays out next year. Time to focus on beating the Pats... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirate Angel Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 I think star gets released, clearing up cap space. Resigning just depends on the market, this front office seems to favor team friendly contracts meaning they can release them with little financial burden if they dont produce. So it will be a matter of how bad do they want to be here or do they want a guaranteed contract. I'm thinking this DNA they look for is wanting to earn your paycheck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddie's Dead Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 Sal had the right idea on this the other day. Transition tag Shaq. It will save a few mill over the franchise tag, and you get compensation if another team makes him an offer and he signs. McBeane will not pull a Doug Whaley and get rid of Shaq for a 5th rounder (remember Hogan and TD Mike?). He'll give him the 2nd round transition tag, which will be just compensation for Shaq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjnick Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 9 hours ago, purple haze said: This is a misnomer. Shaq was playing pretty well last season too. This year he's gotten even better, but he was trending up. Fifth year option wasn't picked up because he had one year of decent production previously. Now he has two. Give him Murphy's money. That's probably what he's looking at from most teams anyway. 7 or 8 million per. Not overly expensive. If we can sign him for 7/8 Mil a year. I'm all for that. I just don't want to resign him at a higher price than his 5th year contract would have been... There's still 2 games left plus playoffs. If he get a couple of more sacks this season, I would expect the price to keep going up. Just like you said, he is trending up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulldog Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 Let's be careful here - I like the way Shaq & Phillips are playing as much as everyone else -- however, let's not return to the days of salary cap jail. We cannot have a maximum salary player at every position. We just spent a #1 pick on a guy (Oliver) who plays essentially the same position as Phillips. Shaq has only shown this kind of production this year & we have contracts for Tre White, Josh Allen & other key players (Edmunds & Milano, etc.) looming in the near future. Tough decisions -- the attitude of "just sign everyone" will not cut it. I guess this is why GM's make the big bucks -- but I guess it is nice to have this issue, instead of the issue we have had for so many years where most of our players were clearly not worth re-signing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 (edited) You could cut Kroft and Murphy, and tack on the same amount you're budgeting for Phillips this season and pay the man 16.7 million per year and break even cap-wise. 26 year old, 340 pound DT's who can rush the passer don't grow on trees! I could see 4 years, 60 million getting it done ($15/per). See below.... Phillips is not the type of guy who is going to stop playing when he gets paid... I can't see it I also think that a 340+ lb DT that can get 9-10 sacks lined up next to Harry and Oliver is a great thing to have, so I would 100% pay Phillips if it came down to picking one of the 2. It's easy to see where they could find the $: 1) Cut Kroft ($5 million) Kroft is getting $6/yr. Cutting him would save around $5 million next season on the cap (after the dead cap number) 2) Cut Murphy ($7.2 million) Murphy's cap hit is 8.9 million next year, with about 1.7 million on dead cap if he is cut) That's 12.2 million in space freed up right there. Phillips is getting 4.5 million this year already. 4.5+7.2+5= 16.7 Draft a DE to replace Murphy, who has not done much anyway. Kroft has been an almost total non-factor, and almost surely will be gone. Another realistic option might be to move on from Ty Nseke, which would save about $4 million on the cap after the dead money. Pat DiMarco is also getting 2.3 million and isn't really used. There are a lot of options to make a few cuts and not even dip into the projected cap space. In the end, the Bills have a ton of cap space, so they can pretty do much do whatever they want at this point and not get into trouble. Edited December 19, 2019 by TheFunPolice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said: You could cut Kroft and Murphy, and tack on the same amount you're budgeting for Phillips this season and pay the man 16.7 million per year and break even cap-wise. 26 year old, 340 pound DT's who can rush the passer don't grow on trees! I could see 4 years, 60 million getting it done ($15/per). See below.... Phillips is not the type of guy who is going to stop playing when he gets paid... I can't see it I also think that a 340+ lb DT that can get 9-10 sacks lined up next to Harry and Oliver is a great thing to have, so I would 100% pay Phillips if it came down to picking one of the 2. It's easy to see where they could find the $: 1) Cut Kroft ($5 million) Kroft is getting $6/yr. Cutting him would save around $5 million next season on the cap (after the dead cap number) 2) Cut Murphy ($7.2 million) Murphy's cap hit is 8.9 million next year, with about 1.7 million on dead cap if he is cut) That's 12.2 million in space freed up right there. Phillips is getting 4.5 million this year already. 4.5+7.2+5= 16.7 Draft a DE to replace Murphy, who has not done much anyway. Kroft has been an almost total non-factor, and almost surely will be gone. Another realistic option might be to move on from Ty Nseke, which would save about $4 million on the cap after the dead money. Pat DiMarco is also getting 2.3 million and isn't really used. There are a lot of options to make a few cuts and not even dip into the projected cap space. In the end, the Bills have a ton of cap space, so they can pretty do much do whatever they want at this point and not get into trouble. Call me crazy, but I feel like Murphy has been quite disruptive and a real presence the last few weeks. He has 3 sacks, sure, but he also has 3 passes defensed, 2 forced fumbles, 2 fumble recoveries, an INT, and a good number of pressures. Edited December 19, 2019 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 1 minute ago, dave mcbride said: Call me crazy, but I feel like Murphy has been quite disruptive and a real presence the last few weeks. I am fine with him staying, because we have tons of cap space and he does make some plays... He only has 1 more year after this anyway, so his contract is not a killer. Hughes also comes off the books in 2 years. When you look at how Beane has structured things, this team should be pretty flexible for quite a while. I am always for paying your own and keeping the close knit group together as much as possible. In terms of Shaq I am a bit less inclined to re-sign for top $$ IF we could get him at something like 3 years, $30 million I would consider it, especially since Murphy and Hughes come off the books soon anyway. However, I think someone will pay him more than that based on being part of this defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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