LSHMEAB Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: The thing is Jax wouldn't save nearly that much. If they don't want Bortles, they would basically save $6.5M in guaranteed salary over cutting him outright. So you're suggesting they'd give up a 2nd round pick for $6.5M cap hit. It was Osweilier's huge, fully guaranteed salary that spurred the Texans-Browns deal as I recall Like I said earlier, I could have sworn I read from a reputable source that their cap hit if cut outright was 16.5 mil. If a trade only saves them 6.5 mil, it's not going to happen. Maybe like a 6th rounder. Meh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustVisiting Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Heff said: Long time reader first time topic poster. I was wondering if we could pull a Cleveland move and obsorb Blake Bortles contract for a second rd pick, plus a fifth? Jaguars fan here. I found this post while doing my daily check for team news and figured I would weigh in. When in comes to Blake my unpopular opinion is that he's been a scapegoat for several years. He does have a poor delivery. His decision making isn't always the best. He'll force some throws because he doesn't always go through his reads. That being said some of this can be corrected. He's young, he's not a media darling like Tebow, he's athletic, and he plays with heart. Accuracy aside he has a cannon of an arm. (Note: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000400156/article/matthew-stafford-leads-list-of-top-10-strongest-arms ) He rounded out the top 10 strongest arms for QB's in '14. I believe the right coaching staff could turn his career around. People tend to ignore the state of the Jaguars franchise during Blake's rookie and subsequent seasons. There was a lot of coaching turnover. The front office was consistently hamstrung by the financial decisions of prior regimes. Blake was surrounded by rookies. The offensive line was patchwork at best. The defense was not the juggernaut it is today. Of course Blake had a monster sophomore season. He had no choice. Fundamentals are tossed out the window when you've got to do your best Favre impression to stay in games. Blake is athletic enough to play behind a line of dog food bags but no rookie should start their career that way. Ultimately he was drafted too high and started too soon. Does this mean he shouldn't have been a starter in the NFL? Not necessarily. Just not for the Jaguars at that time. I would say he's a backup at best right now but a project at worst. Blake does present at a great value but only after this current contract is up. You just can't draft a project quarterback and start him under a patchwork coaching staff plucked from the bottom of the barrel of coaching candidates. Remember that at that time the Jaguars couldn't lure quality coaches to Duvall. Hell they couldn't even attract free agents that weren't past their prime for less than double their worth. Trade wise this isn't a terrible idea. You do have the cap space and the Jaguars only need cap space. This fan would prefer to keep Bortles on as an insurance policy and draft a QB on day 2. He'll be paid too much to be a backup should the rookie take his spot but the cap casualty is also too much to not consider. I'd much rather pay a bit more and get a return on said investment than literally pay to have nothing. That's just me and it's based mostly on Blake the person and not Blake the player. He's not a cancer, his teammates support him, he plays to win, and he'll play hurt. That's my 2 cents. Edited January 25, 2019 by JustVisiting 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk71 Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 18 minutes ago, JustVisiting said: Jaguars fan here. I found this post while doing my daily check for team news and figured I would weigh in. When in comes to Blake my unpopular opinion is that he's been a scapegoat for several years. He does have a poor delivery. His decision making isn't always the best. He'll force some throws because he doesn't always go through his reads. That being said some of this can be corrected. He's young, he's not a media darling like Tebow, he's athletic, and he plays with heart. Accuracy aside he has a cannon of an arm. I believe the right coaching staff could turn his career around. People tend to ignore the state of the Jaguars franchise during Blake's rookie and subsequent seasons. There was a lot of coaching turnover. The front office was consistently hamstrung by the financial decisions of prior regimes. Blake was surrounded by rookies. The offensive line was patchwork at best. The defense was not the juggernaut it is today. Of course Blake had a monster sophomore season. He had no choice. Fundamentals are tossed out the window when you've got to do your best Favre impression to stay in games. Blake is athletic enough to play behind a line of dog food bags but no rookie should start their career that way. Ultimately he was drafted too high and started too soon. Does this mean he shouldn't have been a starter in the NFL? Not necessarily. Just not for the Jaguars at that time. I would say he's a backup at best right now but a project at worst. Blake does present at a great value but only after this current contract is up. You just can't draft a project quarterback and start him under a patchwork coaching staff plucked from the bottom of the barrel of coaching candidates. Remember that at that time the Jaguars couldn't lure quality coaches to Duvall. Hell they couldn't even attract free agents that weren't past their prime for less than double their worth. Trade wise this isn't a terrible idea. You do have the cap space and the Jaguars only need cap space. This fan would prefer to keep Bortles on as an insurance policy and draft a QB on day 2. He'll be paid too much to be a backup should the rookie take his spot but the cap casualty is also too much to not consider. I'd much rather pay a bit more and get a return on said investment than literally pay to have nothing. That's just me and it's based mostly on Blake the person and not Blake the player. He's not a cancer, his teammates support him, he plays to win, and he'll play hurt. That's my 2 cents. Thnx for contributing. It's settled then, you guys keep him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 1 hour ago, machine gun kelly said: So you’d rather have an absorption of a substantial contract because of a 2nd and 5th, knowing less than 10% of fifths ever start, vs. going after a couple of WR and a Guard or Center, and then have more talent when we draft as we already have two 2nds. Doesnt make any sense to me as I live in FL and he is not good at all, but I do welcome you to the board. You seem to think we’d really fill out the roster with the 6.5m on the line here eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 24 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said: Like I said earlier, I could have sworn I read from a reputable source that their cap hit if cut outright was 16.5 mil. If a trade only saves them 6.5 mil, it's not going to happen. Maybe like a 6th rounder. Meh. Let me try to break it down a bit better. Your source isn't wrong, but you have to look at the difference in cap hit between cutting and trading him. In both cases, they're on the hook for this year's and next year's amortized bonus of $10M. So if they trade him, they take $10M cap hit. If they cut him, they're on the hook for this year's guaranteed salary as well (depending upon details of his contract language and what anyone else pays him, they might gt some back. So that is $16.5M. My point was, if they trade him, they're still on the hook for $10M, so $16.5M (cap hit if cut) - $10M (cap hit if traded) = $6.5M saving from trade. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSHMEAB Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said: Let me try to break it down a bit better. Your source isn't wrong, but you have to look at the difference in cap hit between cutting and trading him. In both cases, they're on the hook for this year's and next year's amortized bonus of $10M. So if they trade him, they take $10M cap hit. If they cut him, they're on the hook for this year's guaranteed salary as well (depending upon details of his contract language and what anyone else pays him, they might gt some back. So that is $16.5M. My point was, if they trade him, they're still on the hook for $10M, so $16.5M (cap hit if cut) - $10M (cap hit if traded) = $6.5M saving from trade. Got it. Not gonna get much under these circumstances. Not interested in a 5th or even 4th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo86 Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 Beane has said he believes in building through the draft and not making any big splashes in free agency. The Bortles plan would seem to align with that philosophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PirateHookerMD Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 2 hours ago, BillyWhiteShows said: Interesting but it doesn’t seem to be their style. Plus there are two QB’s under contract that have both been helpful to Allen. They would trade for him and cut him and eat the cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk71 Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Buffalo86 said: Beane has said he believes in building through the draft and not making any big splashes in free agency. The Bortles plan would seem to align with that philosophy. Why spend money on good players in free agency when you can buy late rnd draft picks instead? You think that aligns with Beane's philosophy? I am pretty sure there is no 'Bortles plan'. Put a fork in this thread. Edited January 25, 2019 by Turk71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niagara Dude Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 3 hours ago, Heff said: Long time reader first time topic poster. I was wondering if we could pull a Cleveland move and obsorb Blake Bortles contract for a second rd pick, plus a fifth? 2 and 3rd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Allan in MD Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 This thread warrants four pages of comments? Hmm 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDingus Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 3 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said: Not sure why we need to even consider this. For once in 20+ years the Bills are set in the QB department. Where would Bortles fit in? Yeah... I mean with a field that includes a guy with a 52.8% completion percentage, rushes more than a RB, threw more INT's than TD's, and had a 67.9 Passer Rating (52.3 QBR), along with greats like Matt Barkley & Derek Anderson, you're absolutely right! Stop the search everyone! The Bills have finally made it! How could we possibly get any better than that? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 I’m not inclined to help Maronne for less than a boatload of first rounders, like....a decade’s worth. Maybe I’m emotional on that point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Tim Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 I doubt it could be done but if they offered a 2nd and 3rd and we traded them our 7th I would do it but I would not even consider it for just a 2nd and us giving them a 5th. to move up three rounds should not cost that kind of cash. 8 minutes ago, Augie said: I’m not inclined to help Maronne for less than a boatload of first rounders, like....a decade’s worth. Maybe I’m emotional on that point? I think we would be screwing them if we could get a 1st this year. THAT makes me feel better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPP Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 Bortles is transitioning into maybe a journeyman backup QB for the rest of his career........his days of starting for any team is definately over.....well unless he takes a plane ride up to the Great White North of the CFL........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poleshifter Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 2 hours ago, LSHMEAB said: Edit. The number of posters who don't seem to understand this concept is startling. I'm sure they're terrific people, but c'mon man! I think that situation has only happened once, in the Osweiler to Browns deal. So, perhaps it is understandable that many people here do not grasp the concept you speak of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSHMEAB Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Poleshifter said: I think that situation has only happened once, in the Osweiler to Browns deal. So, perhaps it is understandable that many people here do not grasp the concept you speak of. I guess. The OP referenced Cleveland and "obsorbing" the contract so I thought he made it pretty clear. Not a big deal. Edited January 25, 2019 by LSHMEAB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk71 Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 32 minutes ago, BigDingus said: Yeah... I mean with a field that includes a guy with a 52.8% completion percentage, rushes more than a RB, threw more INT's than TD's, and had a 67.9 Passer Rating (52.3 QBR), along with greats like Matt Barkley & Derek Anderson, you're absolutely right! Stop the search everyone! The Bills have finally made it! How could we possibly get any better than that? You have convinced me! Blake Bortles is the answer! Pay that man 21 million dollars! ?!?!?!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 It's an interesting thought, but if the team that gets him is only on the hook for $6.5 mil they might be able to find a team with an uncertain QB situation that would trade a late round pick for him straight up. Someone might see him as a viable b/u or reclamation project. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: Just $6.5M of his 2019 contract is guaranteed..........so that's what it would cost in cap space to trade for him. It would be a sellers market if the Jags offered up a pick for someone to take him............lot's of teams with lot's of cap room. That $6.5M guarantee has offsets too. That means that if the Jags cut him and he signs elsewhere then the amount he’s paid in 2019 is deducted from that. Even as a backup he’d make more than $6.5M so there’s no Osweiler type deal to be done here. That only happened because of the salary guarantees in his contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat68 Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 If Buffalo misses out on their prize FA targets I wouldn't hate it. If Jax is as cap scrap as I assume it's a logical was to eat some cap space and get a pick out of it. Basically, cut him and eat the cap hit for a day 2 pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 1 hour ago, BigDingus said: Yeah... I mean with a field that includes a guy with a 52.8% completion percentage, rushes more than a RB, threw more INT's than TD's, and had a 67.9 Passer Rating (52.3 QBR), along with greats like Matt Barkley & Derek Anderson, you're absolutely right! Stop the search everyone! The Bills have finally made it! How could we possibly get any better than that? Right, because stats mean everything and Bortles is such a great QB. How could one think otherwise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 That’s a plethora of question marks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 This is NOT my field of expertise (and I’m still trying to determine exactly what that is), but if you can trade cap space you won’t be using for picks to get young guys who can help, is there a problem with that? Can you cut him right away? I’m sure it’s more complicated than I get at first glance. Is there a succinct clarification? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 5 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said: ...a fifth of WHAT?........... So pass the bottle of Hennessey you got on your shelf...and just let me introduce myself... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QCity Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 (edited) It's a very interesting topic, but the Jags would only get $11M of cap relief in 2019. I certainly don't think any team would part with a 2nd round pick for that. Then again the Jags financials are a complete mess and they will be forced to cut Dareus and Gipson this offseason and they will still be in rough shape, but I don't think they are that desperate yet. But yeah, that would be an incredible move for us if that scenario arises. Edit: Ahh never mind, they can simply release him post June 1st and realize a cap savings of $9.5M, which means the Osweiler plan is likely D.O.A. Edited January 25, 2019 by QCity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan_34 Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 No- Blake Bortles is awful, even as a second hes bad. 16 mil cap hit and giving up picks for him- absolutely not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, Augie said: This is NOT my field of expertise (and I’m still trying to determine exactly what that is), but if you can trade cap space you won’t be using for picks to get young guys who can help, is there a problem with that? Can you cut him right away? I’m sure it’s more complicated than I get at first glance. Is there a succinct clarification? Yeah, it's complex and interesting. The original post was a bit hard to read and a bit misleading. From what I can figure out of Spotrac, $6.5 mill of his 2019 salary is guaranteed, so if we picked him up, we would be responsible for that guaranteed money. Jax is scheduled right now to have $16.5 mill of dead money if they cut him. https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/jacksonville-jaguars/blake-bortles-14412/ Trading him to us would I think save them only that $6.5 mill. The other $10 mill (of Jax dead money) is just the amortization of the signing bonus they paid him, and that can't be transferred to any other team in any way. I may be missing something here but I think that's all they would save by trading him to us, $6.5 mill. And I can't see them giving much in picks to save that little. A 7th rounder maybe, if they're right up against the cap and desperate? And yeah, we could cut him right away if we traded for him. This would mean we wouldn't have to pay anymore than the $6.5 mill. His unguaranteed salary is $16 mill, so if you kept him for the season he would cost another $9.5 mill. Can't imagine them paying that for Blake Bortles. If I've missed something here, could somebody tell me? EDIT: Ah, I see Hapless agrees with me about it being only $6.5 mill saved for Jax. I feel a bit safer in the opinion now. Edited January 25, 2019 by Thurman#1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 7 hours ago, Rob's House said: It's an interesting thought, but if the team that gets him is only on the hook for $6.5 mil they might be able to find a team with an uncertain QB situation that would trade a late round pick for him straight up. Someone might see him as a viable b/u or reclamation project. Not quite. The team that gets him is only on the hook for $6.5 mill ... if they cut him before the first game. If they keep him, they start paying the whole $16 mill of his 2019 salary. I don't think it's likely somebody would pay that, especially as Bortles will likely be an FA one way or the other well before the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 11 hours ago, Heff said: Long time reader first time topic poster. I was wondering if we could pull a Cleveland move and obsorb Blake Bortles contract for a second rd pick, plus a fifth? so essentially , your buying a 2nd round pick for $6.5 million that would be under team control for at least 4 years at $2 mil/yr. you would have to eat $6.5 or keep bortles as a backup (who sucks) AND pay $2 mil/yr for an early 2nd round. total of $14.5 mil over 4 years for a 2nd round draft choice averages $3.6 mil/yr the bills signed free agent Jordan Poyer to a 4 year, $13,000,000 contract. I don't want bortles as a backup and I would rather use that money towards a somewhat known free agent vs the risk of a unknown rookie. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan1988 Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 12 hours ago, White Linen said: That's an awful lot to pay. You can sign a free agent that would be better than that second round pick for the Bortles money. I would make this trade in a heartbeat. Were not spending all our cap anyways. Trade for him and cut him that gives us dead cap money that would be available in 2020. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Dude Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 13 hours ago, Heff said: Long time reader first time topic poster. I was wondering if we could pull a Cleveland move and obsorb Blake Bortles contract for a second rd pick, plus a fifth? Thats actually an interesting proposition. How much will Jacksonville have in dead cap if he’s cut? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffaloboyinATL Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 A total basketball move. I was surprised to see it with Osweiler, but to be honest, if we have the cap space and the Jags need to clear some, it would be a worthwhile move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 3 hours ago, The_Dude said: Thats actually an interesting proposition. How much will Jacksonville have in dead cap if he’s cut? https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/12/07/consequences-of-blake-bortles-contract-depend-on-his-2019-destination/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoHuddleKelly12 Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 OP, this thread is approx. 3 months too late. You coulda signed me up for this in the dog days of October though, for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerJ Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 If the contract is large enough, the money might better be spent on a couple of solid free agents. If the contract is more modest, the Jags will probably eat the contract themselves. Spotrac says the dead cap money tied up with Bortales would be 16,500,000 in 2019, presuming, I imagine he's cut before June 1. I think Buffalo could sign a couple of nice free agents at 8 million apiece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T master Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 Who ever was the one to agree or make the recommendation to resign Bortles to that kind of contract was as foolish as the guy that offered the contract to Fitz when he was in B/lo . I hope that this new regime was watching & learned to stay clear of any such thought of such things as what you are asking ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddie's Dead Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 Even Derek Anderson > Bortles. Put down the skunky beer.... https://adland.tv/adnews/budweiser-skunk-alert-1997-030-usa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YodaMan79 Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 After reading the reactions on the first page, do half of the fans on the board not understand second level thinking? Creative post. But I agree with the poster (Buffalover4life) who pointed out the Bills are a little further along than Cleveland, when they paid money for Houston's 2nd round pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 9 hours ago, papazoid said: https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/12/07/consequences-of-blake-bortles-contract-depend-on-his-2019-destination/ Link no worky On a mobile and too lazy to make it work https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/12/07/consequences-of-blake-bortles-contract-depend-on-his-2019-destination/amp/ Well it was an easier google search Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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