Matt Ryan: "Bills Mafia is real"

[RyanC883]

My thing about buffalo and its surrounding areas... When I go to a bar, like everyone feels like the local pub. I can talk to strangers, bartenders, whatever, and everyone's pretty cool.

 

Try that in most other places and people are weirded out.

 

Buffalo's got a great atmosphere. Some people did have their jobs move out of state--largely due to NYS taxes. Those folks are the "transplants." I'm a transplant (got transplanted when I was 12 due to Dad's job). A bills fan growing up and living in Steelers land!

Are you guys expecting Bills fans to take over Cincinnati?

 

I'm expecting to see it. Was going to go w/ a friend of mine, but the Wife is away so I have the kids.

[eball]

 

If you're curious as to where the actual term came from, I believe it stemmed from them signing Nick Barnett in 2011. He tweeted that he thought the fans up here were like a "mafia" and then that Del Reid fella turned it into a hashtag and it picked up steam from there. Del runs 26shirts.com, a charitable organization that creates Bills/Buffalo themed t-shirts with the proceeds going towards local families in need. In recent years they have extended into Pittsburgh and a few other cities, I think.

 

 

Actually started before them IIRC. Was after the SJ13 drop and the social medai firestorm of his "God" tweet , that is when Del and a few other fans started using the moniker.

 

You're both kinda right, but I believe it started when Adam Schefter blocked Del Reid because Del was making fun of Schefter's everybody-already-knows-this tweets with the hashtag #schefterbreakingnews. Fans piled on Schefter for blocking Del and the Mafia was born.

[Big Turk]

 

That has not been my experience at all. People all over the country and even the world (with some exceptions I am sure) are very approachable in a setting like that - bars, restaurants, etc.

 

I can't imagine why you think that is unique to this area. It most certainly is not.

 

-----------

 

As far as the economy around Buffalo goes:

 

Buffalo will be great again economically, if and when there is ever a resurgence in manufacturing around here. Don't hold your breath waiting for it.

That isnt what they are trending towards...we are one of the leaders in Bio informatics with UB/HWI and other institutions playing very important roles there. There is also quite a bit of IT talent here nobody seems to want to recognize(I know, im a programmer). Last time i checked, none of my colleagues were clamoring for a raise because they couldnt afford to pay rent while making 250K like some of the Facebook engineers who were living in their cars were doing...

 

The old way of how Buffalo succeeded is gone...we must adapt or die. The future isnt in manufacturing its in technology. We have finally started carving out our niche in it.

Edited October 3, 2017 by matter2003

[Putin]

What is Bills Mafia born from? Love of the Bills or lack of jobs in Buffalo forcing relocation?

We can't tell you cause then we'd have to 🔪☠️🗡

[Direhard Fan]

Couldn't help but notice in the pre game TV spot that the stadium must have a kids area where they all go for stuff. There were more kids with Bill's shirts on than Atl. Looked great.

[billsfan60]

The fact you ended your post with the most commonly perpetuated myth in Buffalo in the last 5 years explains the ignorance of reality that started your post. Try reading anything on the history of Buffalo (Mark Goldman’s work; Power Failure, etc.) and then report back on whether or not the troubles this city and region faced after WWII is overstated. Do you hold the same comment about Detroit? And because you supposedly have fared well here does not make your argument valid, in fact it’s only an indictment of your blindness to reality and other possibilities. Bethlehem Steel once employed over 25,000 well paid workers with middle class wages. Same with the multitude of other steel and metals related industries. This was a blue collar, get your hands dirty community. You graduated in the 50s, 60s, and 70s and generally went to work at 18. Shipping and warehousing were important as well, starting from the city’s inception through the Canal era and rail eras. It supported our place as a dominant manufacturing region. But those jobs have largely disappeared. People who lost jobs didn’t leave for more money, they left for a job, any job. When Bethlehem and Roblin and Hanna Furnace and Republic closed, those thousands of workers didn’t find their skills valuable here anymore. And when Bethlehem laid off literally thousands on one day, there weren’t 1,000 jobs in other steel factories for them to go get. And the region as a whole struggled to transition to a knowledge and advanced services economy. Which is still a problem today. It’s not like when Bethlehem closed in the early 80s, Microsoft was here willing to employ 1,000 steel workers in computer engineering. An economy over-leveraged in making things can’t simply just flip the switch and become a different economy with the existing human capital. You can’t subsidize your way out of it. Or build your way out of it.

 

And if you believe the region or city is on the rise, it surprises me not at all given your predisposition to see this place only through your own eyes only and constructed reality. The region just, JUST, got back to the employment level of 2001. So we’ve risen to what? Back to 2001? Does anyone think things were great in 2001? That’s the resurgence? Population in the city has decreased every year since 1950. Yes. Every. Single. Year. How does that work with the resurgence narrative exactly? Regional population is stagnant since 1970. Median household income in the city is a few hundred dollars less today, when adjusted for inflation, than when Byron Brown started in office. We have one of the highest poverty rates in any large cities. Low paying services as a percentage of the overall economy are higher than the national average, meaning we’re creating low end jobs.

 

But I suspect if you’re doing well and enjoying all the craft beer and hip over-priced eating establishments in the city, you don’t care that those people serving you represent the new jobs in the “new” Buffalo, which is a lot like the old Buffalo.

 

Shame on you for equating the cool places you get to spend your money at as indicative of a resurgence.

 

Shame on you for being historically ignorant and for accusing those who left for being driven by money and good weather rather than actually and truly being forced to leave for a job to put food on the table, clothes on their kids’ backs, and pay the bills. You are truly an ahole.

You don't get it, do you? What do you think makes people from all across the country and as far away as Europe root for this team? Their great SB victories? Their constant winning seasons? The overwhelming star power of the players? The people of Western New York, no matter if they live in Tonawanda, Tuscaloosa or Trent On Avon now, created the Bills Mafia. Somebody put a label on it but it began at the Rock Pile. It's a community that transcends borders, religions, skin color, politics and nationality. Don't care who or what you are if you love the Bills you're family. Others see it and want to be part of it and that's how it grew. It has nothing to do with white collars, blue collars, or no collars. Over the years I've followed the Bills on the radio, black and white TV sets, lap tops, at Rich and The Ralph (if I had the money and in the TV department at Wally World if I didn't). There's no greater people on this planet than the original Bills Mafia, the people of Buffalo.

[Buffalo716]

You don't get it, do you? What do you think makes people from all across the country and as far away as Europe root for this team? Their great SB victories? Their constant winning seasons? The overwhelming star power of the players? The people of Western New York, no matter if they live in Tonawanda, Tuscaloosa or Trent On Avon now, created the Bills Mafia. Somebody put a label on it but it began at the Rock Pile. It's a community that transcends borders, religions, skin color, politics and nationality. Don't care who or what you are if you love the Bills you're family. Others see it and want to be part of it and that's how it grew. It has nothing to do with white collars, blue collars, or no collars. Over the years I've followed the Bills on the radio, black and white TV sets, lap tops, at Rich and The Ralph (if I had the money and in the TV department at Wally World if I didn't). There's no greater people on this planet than the original Bills Mafia, the people of Buffalo.

 

+1

 

I will never leave

[Fan in San Diego]

I thought the Bills Mafia got their name from the fact that the Mafia runs all city contracts and city jobs?

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

I thought the Bills Mafia got their name from the fact that the Mafia runs all city contracts and city jobs?

 

...be careful...that black limo in your driveway may be one of ours....we have a knack of being "convincing"....LMAO.....

[Fan in San Diego]

 

...be careful...that black limo in your driveway may be one of ours....we have a knack of being "convincing"....LMAO.....

Whatcha talkin about? I drive a black limo with suicide doors.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Matt Ryan was on a radio show Monday and he was asked if he noticed how many Bills fans were there. He said he did and was surprised and that "I guess the Bills Mafia is real..."

 

Haha, yeah we are real and if we have supported a team this well in a 17 year playoff drought, just imagine what is going to happen now when they appear to be turning the corner...

 

It will be the MOB then!

[reddogblitz]

There is debate as to whether it's too expensive or if people are in the shops and bars, but it really shucks home field advantaage from a team when fans aren't out there making noise.

 

God I hate the term Bills Mafia, but I guess once a name sticks.....

$200 cover charge. LOL

 

Yeah I hate the mafia name too. But it is real.

[8-8 Forever?]

What is Bills Mafia born from? Love of the Bills or lack of jobs in Buffalo forcing relocation?

pretty much the latter. for example, there are 10s of thousands of WNYers in the DC area where I live, all of whom have grown children now who are Bills fans...

 

with 30++ years of out-migration, the math is that there must be more Bills fans outside Erie County than inside right now

Edited October 4, 2017 by 8-8 Forever?

[Beach]

I am a transplant to the south (VA Beach). There are many things I miss about living up there. My commute does suck, the food sucks, sometimes i miss the snow, my small house would be a very large house in WNY, and my job pays about the same as up there. However, taxes are cheaper, gas is cheaper, my small house is a 1/2 mile from the ocean, and I coached Bruce's son here, I coached Justin Hunter too (track not football) I miss alot but I do love it here, I run into a different Bills fan every month here and I we instantly have a bond.

[Augie]

Eric Wood said Falcons had to go with silent cadence. At home. Thats yuge.

I hadn't heard that...but it's AWESOME! After this post, things start to turn south, sadly.... Some people are very defensive. I loved living in WNY. Because I'm not still there does not make me evil. Life happens.

[dlonce]

Funny I have had no issue finding well paying jobs here...

 

I think that was largely overblown. They are not "forced" to relocate...they want to either because they think they can make more money, better weather whatever. Sadly many find that isn't the case...Making an extra 20K and then paying double the mortgage for a smaller house, much higher food prices and having much worse commutes that eat up gas and an overall higher cost of living are leaving many to realize too late that net income is far more important than gross income...ie, many people would have more money left over in Buffalo than they do elsewhere...which is why a lot of people have been moving back lately...

 

Those jabs and snubs are largely false these days, but some people are still too blind to open their eyes up to reality. Buffalo is on the rise.

People relocate for various reasons. It used to be work,and weather but Buffalo has been rebounding with very high paying professional jobs.

The area I have a home in sees property sales in excess of 1 million because of these professions and homes are not on the market for very long.

Weather is a big factor for transplants.

[Gigs]

 

Funny I have had no issue finding well paying jobs here...

 

I think that was largely overblown. They are not "forced" to relocate...they want to either because they think they can make more money, better weather whatever. Sadly many find that isn't the case...Making an extra 20K and then paying double the mortgage for a smaller house, much higher food prices and having much worse commutes that eat up gas and an overall higher cost of living are leaving many to realize too late that net income is far more important than gross income...ie, many people would have more money left over in Buffalo than they do elsewhere...which is why a lot of people have been moving back lately...

 

Those jabs and snubs are largely false these days, but some people are still too blind to open their eyes up to reality. Buffalo is on the rise.

This isnt the case, but sure.

 

Buffalo has a long way to go before you could claim it to be on the rise. I live in a pretty poor area of Florida and I make double what I made in Buffalo. Just some perspective. And some, not most, people move home because of attachments. Some people cant cope with moving away from home, or dealing with change, or you know: family. It has nothing to do with being on the rise lol.

 

Thats like claiming the 4am last call helps Buffalos tourism lmao

[LeviF]

 

Thats like claiming the 4am last call helps Buffalos tourism lmao

 

Well it certainly doesn't hurt

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

If I moved back to WNY I'd pay lower taxes, housing would be cheaper, and people would be nicer. It's definitely on my radar.

[Fadingpain]

there's lots of high paying jobs. that myth is about as old as Buffalo gets a lot of snow. i used my snow blower 3 times last year

Compared to what?

 

Limited job opportunity in WNY is not a myth friend.

This isnt the case, but sure.

 

Buffalo has a long way to go before you could claim it to be on the rise. I live in a pretty poor area of Florida and I make double what I made in Buffalo. Just some perspective. And some, not most, people move home because of attachments. Some people cant cope with moving away from home, or dealing with change, or you know: family. It has nothing to do with being on the rise lol.

 

Thats like claiming the 4am last call helps Buffalos tourism lmao

You are probably preaching to the wrong crowd. It's tough to convince WNY lifers that there is life outside of WNY or that it might be radically different/better in differing ways.

 

There is more high paying job opportunity in a 3 mile stretch of the Dulles Corridor (30 miles long) than there likely is in all of Erie County. And that's just heading in 1 direction out of Washington, DC, to speak nothing of the I-270 Biotech corridor, all of Arlington/Alexandria, the District itself, on and on and on and on.

I mention DC only b/c I lived there for 13 years and know it well. And DC is what? the 16th largest market in the USA?

Edited October 4, 2017 by Fadingpain

[Kelly the Dog]

One thing that seems uniquely Buffalo in my experience is buying strangers drinks when you just met them at a bar. No one seems to do that outside of Buffalo. Doing it to hit on a girl doesn't count. I do it all the time and people look at me like I'm nuts. Which of course I am.

[Gugny]

Steelers, Raiders and Packers fans do a good job too.

 

So does Denver, based on a couple weeks ago.

[PromoTheRobot]

 

Buffalo's got a great atmosphere. Some people did have their jobs move out of state--largely due to NYS taxes. Those folks are the "transplants." I'm a transplant (got transplanted when I was 12 due to Dad's job). A bills fan growing up and living in Steelers land!

 

 

I'm expecting to see it. Was going to go w/ a friend of mine, but the Wife is away so I have the kids.

Well taxes pay for roads, schools, infrastructure, etc. So companies took their jobs where they wouldn't have to contribute to the public good.

 

The irony is that it doesn't stop with New York taxes. Companies get to North Carolina or Tennessee and decide their taxes are too much. So they bolt to Mexico or Bangladesh. Always out for the biggest return. Then they blame people on food stamps.

[KDIGGZ]

Compared to what?

 

Limited job opportunity in WNY is not a myth friend.

How many jobs do you need? I only need 1. Why would you need so many jobs per square mile? If you can't get a job here then that's too bad, sounds possibly like a personal issue. Not to mention you can live like a king here on a 6 figure income where in other cities you are just barely scraping by. I do very well here as do friends and family. The people that I know that have moved did so after college and it wasnt for job opportunities, it was more about seeing the world and finding their own happiness. Others have moved later in life for weather. And that's fine, good for them. I like it here. Maybe I'm naive to it or I've been lucky but I've literally never heard someone say I can't find a job here I'm going to have to move. Edited October 4, 2017 by kdiggz

[PolishDave]

How many jobs do you need? I only need 1. Why would you need so many jobs per square mile? If you can't get a job here then that's too bad, sounds possibly like a personal issue. Not to mention you can live like a king here on a 6 figure income where in other cities you are just barely scraping by. I do very well here as do friends and family. The people that I know that have moved did so after college and it wasnt for job opportunities, it was more about seeing the world and finding their own happiness. Others have moved later in life for weather. And that's fine, good for them. I like it here. Maybe I'm naive to it or I've been lucky but I've literally never heard someone say I can't find a job here I'm going to have to move.

 

Yeah, you probably haven't heard that recently because there haven't been any major industry closures recently (that come to mind). However, 20 + years ago, there absolutely were lots of people leaving the Buffalo and WNY area because they couldn't find decent work.

 

In order to lose industry, you have to have it first. And there isn't a lot of industry (at least not big industry) left around here.

 

Here is the sad truth about WNY. Look at the top employers in the area.

 

# Employer # of Employees 1 State of New York 15,123 2 Federal Executive Board (United States of America) 11,183 3 Kaleida Health 10,000 4 University at Buffalo 6,733 5 Catholic Health System 6,628 6 Employer Services Corp 6,363 7 M&T Bank 5,140 8 Tops Markets 5,058 9 Buffalo City School District 4,949 10 Erie County 4,203

40% of the people on that list work for the government.

 

In other words, the biggest and most dominant industry in Buffalo is government by far and it is not even close. = SAD

 

And that doesn't even include Buffalo City Schools (funded by government) or UB (large government funding also).

 

WNY is a Mecca for government workers. And if it wasn't for that government money in Buffalo right now, this area would be nearly destitute. You'd be a farmer or you would starve.

 

Compare that to a city like Charlotte NC for example:

 

# Employer # of Employees 1 Carolinas Healthcare System 35,000 2 Wells Fargo 22,000 3 Charlotte Mecklenburg Schools 18,143 4 Walmart 16,100 5 Bank of America 15,000 6 Lowe's 12,960 7 Novant Health 11,000 8 American Airlines 10,600 9 Harris Teeter 8,239 10 Duke Energy 7,800

All private sector except for the schools.

 

When you compare Buffalo to other cities, economically, Buffalo is a complete joke. That is also why there are thousands of vacant homes and part of the reason for nationally low housing prices.

[Gordio]

How many jobs do you need? I only need 1. Why would you need so many jobs per square mile? If you can't get a job here then that's too bad, sounds possibly like a personal issue. Not to mention you can live like a king here on a 6 figure income where in other cities you are just barely scraping by. I do very well here as do friends and family. The people that I know that have moved did so after college and it wasnt for job opportunities, it was more about seeing the world and finding their own happiness. Others have moved later in life for weather. And that's fine, good for them. I like it here. Maybe I'm naive to it or I've been lucky but I've literally never heard someone say I can't find a job here I'm going to have to move.

 

 

All my friends that have moved over the years moved because they wanted a warmer climate. All of them had good jobs here. That is one of the biggest myth's that there are no jobs here & from a standpoint that a lot of IT companies & larger companies now want their employees working remote, you could literally have a job anywhere in this country & still live in WNY.

[cba fan]

Actually started before them IIRC. Was after the SJ13 drop and the social medai firestorm of his "God" tweet , that is when Del and a few other fans started using the moniker.

Not so sure about that.

 

Bills mafia has always been positive and undying loyalty to Bills players from loyal (blind) fans looking to support and rise up the players not berate and push them down with standard fan negativity. It has since been hijacked by the media erroneously to describe all the poor behavior of the thankfully shrinking numbers of "stupid" Bills fans at tailgates at New Era, and now also to describe the road following they get like in ATL Sunday.

 

That SJ God thing was all negative towards SJ.

Edited October 4, 2017 by cba fan

[plenzmd1]

Not so sure about that.

 

Bills mafia has always been positive and undying loyalty to Bills players from loyal (blind) fans looking to support and rise up the players not berate and push them down with standard fan negativity.

 

That SJ God thing was all negative towards SJ.

Sorry if I was not better at articulating my post. They started Bills Mafia to defend SJ against all the negative backlash from the SJ God tweet absolutely. And as EBall mentioned, also had something to do do with a Shefter tweet. Need to look this up now!

 

EDIT

 

Looks like all of us between Nick Barnett, SJ13 tweet, and Shefter tweet were all correct, we just had to piece it all together!!!

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alyssa-jung/meet-the-billsmafia_b_1917921.html

Edited October 4, 2017 by plenzmd1

[Gordio]

Compared to what?

 

Limited job opportunity in WNY is not a myth friend.

You are probably preaching to the wrong crowd. It's tough to convince WNY lifers that there is life outside of WNY or that it might be radically different/better in differing ways.

 

There is more high paying job opportunity in a 3 mile stretch of the Dulles Corridor (30 miles long) than there likely is in all of Erie County. And that's just heading in 1 direction out of Washington, DC, to speak nothing of the I-270 Biotech corridor, all of Arlington/Alexandria, the District itself, on and on and on and on.

I mention DC only b/c I lived there for 13 years and know it well. And DC is what? the 16th largest market in the USA?

 

 

Everyone of my friends that live in WNY have a well paying 6 figure salary. Now some might scoff at a a 6 figure salary around the country but here it gives you a pretty good life. It gets you a nice lifestyle in WNY.

[4_kidd_4]

More elbow room for me!

 

I could leave and easily increase my salary by about 40%, I work in healthcare.

 

I tried a couple moves when I was in my early 20s, and came back every time. Made me appreciate WNY that much more.

 

To each their own, if you gotta go you gotta go. I chose to adapt and stay.

[cba fan]

If I moved back to WNY I'd pay lower taxes, housing would be cheaper, and people would be nicer. It's definitely on my radar.

You would pay lower taxes? On housing? in a way yes.

 

In Buffalo, you would be living in a larger house paying less RE taxes because the house would be valued less than larger houses in other transplant areas Buffalonians move to. Problem with this is when it is time to sell that Buffalo house and move and or sell and live retired off that windfall and move south for the golden years, your nest egg will not travel so well into more expensive property areas. You may need to live in a trailer city or just have to stay in Buffalo.

 

Income taxes likely higher in Buffalo if you move from FL ot TX or other states with NO state income tax.

Edited October 4, 2017 by cba fan

[plenzmd1]

You would pay lower taxes? On housing? in a way yes.

 

In Buffalo, you would be living in a larger house paying less RE taxes because the house would be valued less than larger houses in other transplant areas Buffalonians move to. Problem with this is when it is time to sell that Buffalo house and move and or sell and live retired off that windfall and move south for the golden years, your nest egg will not travel so well into more expensive property areas. You may need to live in a trailer city or just have to stay in Buffalo.

 

Income taxes likely higher in Buffalo if you move from FL ot TX or other states with NO state income tax.

RE taxes are through the roof in WNY, hopefully the growth and expanded tax base starts to alleviate some of that pressure and rates can start to normalize in the next several years.

 

In terms of retirement, why in Gods green earth anybody would want to leave their friends, family, and lifestyle to move south is beyond me. I would be back in Buffalo in a heartbeat if not for my wife's job, and am actively lobbying her for us to buy property in Buffalo now with an eye on us having a house there in our retirement. Yes, i want to have a place in Buffalo for my retirement!

[bigK14094]

what is it a 3 to 5 hour drive? Why not.

Have done it numerous times.....8-10 hrs depending on traffic and whether you risk breaking the law.

[Big Turk]

what is it a 3 to 5 hour drive? Why not.

Travel much? It takea 3 hours to get to Cleveland and thats at the top of the state, Cincinnati is on the Kentucky border

More like 6.5 or 7...i lived there for a year and a half...

Edited October 4, 2017 by matter2003

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Travel much? It takea 3 hours to get to Cleveland and thats at the top of the state, Cincinnati is on the Kentucky border

More like 6.5 or 7...i lived there for a year and a half...

actually yes, but I don't travel from Buffalo to Cincinnati Ohio. My apologies for posting the trip time to Cleveland Ohio,

 

I can tell you Rochester to Leesburg Virginia is 6.5 hours

I can tell you Leesburg to Virginia Beach Virginia, 4.5 hours (w/ light traffic)

I can tell you Leesburg to Raleigh NC, 5.5 hours (w/ light traffic)

I can tell you Leesburg to WPB Florida, 17 hours (w/ light traffic and a nap)

Edited October 4, 2017 by ShadyBillsFan

[It's in My Blood]

One thing that seems uniquely Buffalo in my experience is buying strangers drinks when you just met them at a bar. No one seems to do that outside of Buffalo. Doing it to hit on a girl doesn't count. I do it all the time and people look at me like I'm nuts. Which of course I am.

I don't know about that man. I lived in the Boca-Deerfield area of Florida for 11 years before moving back and the bars there most always had friendly people buying strangers drinks and having BS conversations with each other.

[RoyBatty is alive]

If I moved back to WNY I'd pay lower taxes, housing would be cheaper, and people would be nicer. It's definitely on my radar.

Lower taxes? Just out of curiosity, where do you live, Connecticut, Mass, California?

Well taxes pay for roads, schools, infrastructure, etc. So companies took their jobs where they wouldn't have to contribute to the public good.

 

The irony is that it doesn't stop with New York taxes. Companies get to North Carolina or Tennessee and decide their taxes are too much. So they bolt to Mexico or Bangladesh. Always out for the biggest return. Then they blame people on food stamps.

So the demise of WNY is because of companies and their greed, is that it?

 

Do you think companies exist for the "public good" or they exist to make money.

 

The public good huh. Taxes also line the pocket of corrupt politicians, give out overpriced contracts to their friends and contributors.

 

Taxes was one of the main reasons I moved to Texas, anyone that can work can get a job down here.

[Royale with Cheese]

http://nysportsbiz.com/2017/10/03/the-bills-mafia-was-so-loud-in-atlanta-that-matt-ryans-offense-had-to-make-crazy-adjustment/

[Jauronimo]

Travel much? It takea 3 hours to get to Cleveland and thats at the top of the state, Cincinnati is on the Kentucky border

More like 6.5 or 7...i lived there for a year and a half...

You're not a real traveler until you've driven to the 3 biggest cities in Ohio. You should check out Toledo while its still a bit of a secret. The three Cs (Cleveland, Columbus, and Cincinnati) are overrun with tourists at this point. They may as well be Disney Land.

[Mike in Horseheads]

You're not a real traveler until you've driven to the 3 biggest cities in Ohio. You should check out Toledo while its still a bit of a secret. The three Cs (Cleveland, Columbus, and Cincinnati) are overrun with tourists at this point. They may as well be Disney Land.

What about Dayton, they don't call it the Gem City for nothing