I hope that Beane stops listening to McDermott when drafting

[Mister Defense]

47 minutes ago, margolbe said:

The greatest strength of this team is offense, so we don't need to keep drafting undersized linebackers and corners who can't cover.

 

We need a true number 2 wide receiver (assuming Diggs stays), another offensive lineman (or two), a RB in the line of Murray, but with youth.  
On the defensive side we need someone to replace DeQuan Jones (assuming he goes elsewhere).  Don't know how Milano is going to recover, so we should consider his replacement.

 

I also think it would worth drafting a developmental quarterback so we don't all have to sweat when Josh takes a hard hit.

 

I hope that we also hire a defensive coordinator.  Although McDermott is a genius in his own mind, we need a fresh voice on defense.  We also need to fire the ST coach and get some one good in here.

 

I agree with some of the specific needs, but why on earth would they create a new need by not signing Jones?  He was as good or better than Oliver, who is having his best year, a dominant force against the run and pass before he went out.  I cannot wait to see our two tackles back together again.  In fact, I am really hoping that Jones comes back this year, and soon.  It will change the defense and McD's options.

 

And with so little word on Milano I guess you may be right that his career may be in jeopardy.  But what prompts you to say that?  Seems extremely overly pessimistic!  And again, you seem to create another need even though it is not warranted.

 

I agree with them getting an excellent wide receiver #2 and fast power running back, which are likely two missing elements from this team.  I am hoping the (almost always injured) Damien Harris could fill that role, but he is simply not available, year after year. Unfortunately, we likely need a #1 corner because of the whiff on Elam. Safety too.

 

And yes, almost guaranteed that McD gets a D coordinator this year, as you can see it in his face, words, and body language that to be the head coach he wants to be, needs to be, he cannot also be in charge of the defense. He talks more and more about the "details" this year and in his new dual role it is simply not possible to be on top of those details when it comes to the overall team. Likely: Frazier returns?

 

The Bills have needs if they are to rise to the top next year.  So let's not add the hypothetical needs at linebacker and D tackle when two players at those positions, two of our best guys, are very likely coming back to the Bills at full strength.

 

 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 hour ago, margolbe said:

The greatest strength of this team is offense, so we don't need to keep drafting undersized linebackers and corners who can't cover.

 

We need a true number 2 wide receiver (assuming Diggs stays), another offensive lineman (or two), a RB in the line of Murray, but with youth.  
On the defensive side we need someone to replace DeQuan Jones (assuming he goes elsewhere).  Don't know how Milano is going to recover, so we should consider his replacement.

 

I also think it would worth drafting a developmental quarterback so we don't all have to sweat when Josh takes a hard hit.

 

I hope that we also hire a defensive coordinator.  Although McDermott is a genius in his own mind, we need a fresh voice on defense.  We also need to fire the ST coach and get some one good in here.

 

The best statistical WR drafted this season so far is... puka nacua (picked in the 5th).  The 2nd best statistically has been Tank Dell (picked in the 3rd).  I'm not fully opposed to a WR in the first - but im opposed to trading up (team has a ton of holes on defense at this point, and needs more contributors on rookie deals).  Just need to see how the board falls and if there's a guy there that you like.   

 

Offensive linemen i can imagine spending some capital on - however we have a starting 5 (bates in for morse potentially), and developmental players (anderson and van demark).  I think a pick here doesn't hurt us though as buffalo has 10 picks.  Try and get meaner.  They usually want to fill the depth out with veterans.  

 

RB - Hate using a decent pick on this when you see guys like pacheco, allgeier, and Kyren williams producing in the 5th round or later. 

 

Defense -

A DE - If they bring AJE back then we'll have 3.  Could see this being the 1st round target.  I wouldn't be shocked if they draft 2.  

A 1T - even if they bring DQ back we have a need here and these players usually end up in that 3-5 round range.

A 3T - These are harder to find as pass rush is a big component of it - could see this being a 1st round target.  

A CB - White either needs to take a pay cut or he is gone - you can't pay a player that much with his recent injury history.  Douglas.  Benford.  Elam (dog house right now, but he's under contract and there's still as much potential in him as there is in any random late round pick)

A NB - Neal is probably cut, Johnson i could see extended but again - this is a later round range spot. They also seem to like lewis here.

Safety - I see them going after vet's here.  There's a lot available, and some good players will end up in that 1yr 4-6M range.  Wouldn't hate if they drafted here.  

 

 

3 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

 

I agree with some of the specific needs, but why on earth would they create a new need by not signing Jones?  He was as good or better than Oliver, who is having his best year, a dominant force against the run and pass before he went out.  I cannot wait to see our two tackles back together again.  In fact, I am really hoping that Jones comes back this year, and soon.  It will change the defense and McD's options.

 

And with so little word on Milano I guess you may be right that his career may be in jeopardy.  But what prompts you to say that?  Seems extremely overly pessimistic!  And again, you seem to create another need even though it is not warranted.

 

I agree with them getting an excellent wide receiver #2 and fast power running back, which are likely two missing elements from this team.  I am hoping the (almost always injured) Damien Harris could fill that role, but he is simply not available, year after year. Unfortunately, we likely need a #1 corner because of the whiff on Elam. Safety too.

 

And yes, almost guaranteed that McD gets a D coordinator this year, as you can see it in his face, words, and body language that to be the head coach he wants to be, needs to be, he cannot also be in charge of the defense. He talks more and more about the "details" this year and in his new dual role it is simply not possible to be on top of those details when it comes to the overall team. Likely: Frazier returns?

 

The Bills have needs if they are to rise to the top next year.  So let's not add the hypothetical needs at linebacker and D tackle when two players at those positions, two of our best guys, are very likely coming back to the Bills at full strength.

 

 

 

We already drafted his potential replacement in williams as well.. 

 

DQ is a free agent as well.  He seems to like playing here and they can probably make it work as he's a 30+ year old 1T coming off an injury.  

Edited December 5, 2023 by Bleeding Bills Blue

[nedboy7]

I think they will draft based on what players land at the spot.  They probably have several positions of need identified and will go with best available in that situation. 

[GoBills808]

9 minutes ago, 34-78-83 said:

I'll be pissed if they keep drafting early defensive players like Kincaid and Torrence and Cook! Screw that Shakir guy too he can't cover anyone!

I think a realistic evaluation of their draft strategy should factor in opportunity cost lost by going w so many day1/2 prospects on defense

 

esp if we consider those guys w NFL traits on the offensive side of the ball are likely to be higher impact overall

[34-78-83]

5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I think a realistic evaluation of their draft strategy should factor in opportunity cost lost by going w so many day1/2 prospects on defense

 

esp if we consider those guys w NFL traits on the offensive side of the ball are likely to be higher impact overall

it was sarcasm pointing out that the original take was inaccurate, especially the last 2 drafts. I hope we go offense 1 and 2 again this year also.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, 34-78-83 said:

it was sarcasm pointing out that the original take was inaccurate, especially the last 2 drafts. I hope we go offense 1 and 2 again this year also.

yes I realize it was sarcasm, i will refer to an earlier comment i left

 

59 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

First round offensive players are just better value overall for this team in that you are getting guys w NFL traits that get the luxury of playing w Allen, they are predisposed to succeed

 

Continuing to draft defensive players w first/second round picks and attempting (sometimes failing) to fit them into your scheme on defense is -ev imo

 

another first rounder on defense this past offseason would have been suicide

 

[John from Riverside]

Do you think that Dalton was a McDermott pick

[boater]

1 hour ago, margolbe said:

We also need to fire the ST coach and get some one good in here.

Yeah. The Special Teams coach, Smiley, is in over his head. He doesn't have the pedigree to be at this level in the NFL.

[Don Otreply]

24 minutes ago, 34-78-83 said:

I'll be pissed if they keep drafting early defensive players like Kincaid and Torrence and Cook! Screw that Shakir guy too he can't cover anyone!

Three high picks in six years, out side of Allen…, it is an underinvestment no matter how you spin it, a better balance is pretty obviously needed, 

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, margolbe said:

The greatest strength of this team is offense, so we don't need to keep drafting undersized linebackers and corners who can't cover.

 

We need a true number 2 wide receiver (assuming Diggs stays), another offensive lineman (or two), a RB in the line of Murray, but with youth.  
On the defensive side we need someone to replace DeQuan Jones (assuming he goes elsewhere).  Don't know how Milano is going to recover, so we should consider his replacement.

 

I also think it would worth drafting a developmental quarterback so we don't all have to sweat when Josh takes a hard hit.

 

I hope that we also hire a defensive coordinator.  Although McDermott is a genius in his own mind, we need a fresh voice on defense.  We also need to fire the ST coach and get some one good in here.

 

I swear, its like there are people here who don't watch football or the games.  

 

So you are unhappy that Bills drafted Milano (undersized LB) and Bernard (maybe our best defensive player on the season thus far and also undersized LB)?  Landing an all pro LB in Milano in the 5th round and then landing Bernard in the 3rd is an issue for you? 

 

You are equally upset with finding quality cornerbacks who are good enough to start in the NFL late in drafts too like Benford and Dane is also an issue for you?  

 

Literally this is one of the most ridiculous posts I have ever seen.  Hey, lets stop drafting all-pros, potential pro-bowlers, and quality depth and starters late in drafts so we can draft a bunch of offensive guys that likely don't make the team.  

 

And then the irony is in a thread where you literally said to stop drafting defense basically you also say we need to replace Jones (who was playing as one of the best DT's in the NFL this year prior to getting hurt) and Milano (an all pro MLB whose injury is expected to be a full recovery).  So with no money to spend, where are the Bills getting those "replacements" if you don't want them drafting them?  LOL, this thread really makes no sense what so ever.

 

 

Edited December 5, 2023 by Alphadawg7

[oldmanfan]

42 minutes ago, freddyjj said:

No he is not per spotrac. He will be a UFA. 
 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/daquan-jones-14523/#:~:text=DaQuan Jones signed a 2,dead cap value of %2410%2C416%2C668.

 

Yep, thanks for clarifying.  I suspect he’ll be a priority

[coloradobillsfan]

47 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

What about him? every so often an above average offensive weapon is drafted, but it sure doesn’t make up for the constant lack of quality offensive draft picks that get used on guys like Boogie Basham…, 

Every time I hear Creed Humphrey's name I get another grey hair

[Straight Hucklebuck]

45 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

But but but but, they traded a first for Diggs, in a wildly deep WR class.  The pick they traded turned into Jefferson, they could have sent virtually the same package and had Lamb, why does is matter? CAP space.   Those guys are studs on rookie deals.  Yes they are going to get paid, BUT you could have saved 2 starting DTs worth of cap for 4/5 years and when you paid them, have a 24 year old, not a 30 year old.  That’s huge. 
 

For as much hate as I give Davis, he’s been a very productive 4th round pick and if he was playing the #3 the way he should be, nobody would be mad. 
 

The problem with the assets being spent on drafting D isn’t that you spent the picks, it’s that you didn’t hit on any of them.  Back to back DEs that were so impactful, you had to go sign an aging Miller to a monster deal and that obviously looks even worse now.   Oliver is fine, but 3 DTs after him are absolutely in a different league than he is.  Elam.. good lord.. that one cost us next years 3rd round pick and more money to make up for that gaffe in order to survive this year. 
 

The thing the apologist want to argue is the number of guys Beane drafted that are in the NFL.  The reality is, quantity is nice, but they’re no impact players.  Literally none.   There’s a chance that he finally hit with Kincaid, but that remains to be seen as right now he basically producing as a good slot WR.  Don’t get me wrong, love it, but that’s not a massive impact player, yet. 
 

The reason this team is in cap hell is poor drafting.  The reason this team is looked at as having lesser talent vs the other contenders is POOR DRAFTING.  If we want to be really honest, neither Beane nor McClappy would be here if they had not hit on Allen.  Without him elevating the entire team, both would be elsewhere.

Agree. 

 

The Bills have not drafted any players that became high-end talents since Allen. 

 

Offensively, they finally invested with their 1st and 2nd Rounders this year and both have become starting level players. 

[finn]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

They have Milano’s replacement with Williams, just as they had Edmunds replacement in Bernard.  I think Jones is signed for next year?  

I had a heretic thought this morning: What about trading Milano for a first-round pick? The Bills have to find some way out of cap hell next year without gutting the roster. They need a WR and a safety at the very least. If Williams can replace Milano, the pick could go to one of these two needs, while our our pick could go to the other. Meanwhile, the caps saving might possibly be enough to re-sign Jones or Floyd. As long as he's healthy, Milano is top-ten player in the entire league. He should warrant a first-rounder. 

[DrDawkinstein]

2 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Agree. 

 

The Bills have not drafted any players that became high-end talents since Allen. 

 

Offensively, they finally invested with their 1st and 2nd Rounders this year and both have become starting level players. 

 

I'm on record criticizing Beane for too many singles and doubles and not enough home runs. However, with your example of Allen, Beane hasnt had any other picks in the top 10. Usually mid to late 20s. So there is that. But still not an excuse.

 

It's part of the reason I've about cashed it in for this season and hope the Bills end up around 12-15. We wasted half the season on Dorsey, it's a lost cause at this point. Let's see what Beane and Co. can do with a decent position throughout the draft for once. Especially with how critical this draft will be given all the players we will need to replace.

[34-78-83]

15 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

Three high picks in six years, out side of Allen…, it is an underinvestment no matter how you spin it, a better balance is pretty obviously needed, 

 

GO BILLS!!!

Different years, different needs that made sense at the time to form a complete team. Diggs was also a high pick essentially... a plug and play one. Keep drafting offense, yes, I agree. Also, McD is NOT undermining Beane picks which is the attempted point of this thread. It's 100% unfounded.

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Agree. 

 

The Bills have not drafted any players that became high-end talents since Allen. 

 

Offensively, they finally invested with their 1st and 2nd Rounders this year and both have become starting level players. 

Unsurprisingly considering the expenditures tho

 

I mean they've gotten above average returns on 4th round Davis 5th round Shakir and 3rd round megaproject Knox

 

Now imagine if a few of Elam/Basham/Rousseau/Epensesa/Oliver had been offensive picks

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, finn said:

I had a heretic thought this morning: What about trading Milano for a first-round pick? The Bills have to find some way out of cap hell next year without gutting the roster. They need a WR and a safety at the very least. If Williams can replace Milano, the pick could go to one of these two needs, while our our pick could go to the other. Meanwhile, the caps saving might possibly be enough to re-sign Jones or Floyd. As long as he's healthy, Milano is top-ten player in the entire league. He should warrant a first-rounder. 

 

Interesting idea.

 

The roster needs to be gutted anyways. White, Poyer, and Morse need to go based on age/injury/physiology alone.

 

If we bring in a new HC and therefore a new DC, I could see them moving Milano. But at the same time, he's the closest thing we have to a normal sized LB if the new coaches plan on running any other scheme. So.. 🤷‍♂️

 

That all said, I'm pretty sure trading a player escalates all their guaranteed/dead money. So trading him would be an even bigger hit to the cap for us.

[GoBills808]

13 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I'm on record criticizing Beane for too many singles and doubles and not enough home runs. However, with your example of Allen, Beane hasnt had any other picks in the top 10. Usually mid to late 20s. So there is that. But still not an excuse.

 

It's part of the reason I've about cashed it in for this season and hope the Bills end up around 12-15. We wasted half the season on Dorsey, it's a lost cause at this point. Let's see what Beane and Co. can do with a decent position throughout the draft for once. Especially with how critical this draft will be given all the players we will need to replace.

Oliver was 9th overall iirc

[TBBills Fan]

59 minutes ago, WotAGuy said:

ATM??   I’m not sure this means what you think it means….

ass to mouth, we all know t his

[BillsVet]

1 hour ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Just stop. There is no proof to this “McDictator ” nonsense that leads to his meddling being the root cause of every single issue. 

McD doesn’t have more or less say over the draft than Beane does, they’re a team along with the rest of the scouts. 

 

Do you think it's a coincidence that 2017's first priority was overhauling their secondary?  And yeah I know, Beane wasn't "officially" here yet.  

 

Or that they prioritized signing Star to a 5 year 50M deal in 2018?  You know, during the time they were getting out of the previous regime's cap issues? 

 

Or, used 5 of 7 1st round picks on defense from 2017-2022?

 

Or, have targeted defensive players first in each UFA period save for perhaps 1 maybe 2 since McD took over?  

 

Nah, McD isn't the prime voice at OBD.  Not enough evidence. 👌

[DrDawkinstein]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

Now imagine if a few of Elam/Basham/Rousseau/Epensesa/Oliver had been offensive picks

 

Ok, lets! (I honestly have no idea how this is going to go as I type it out)

 

2019 - Ed Oliver. I don't see an Offensive player that was taken in the rest of the 1st round that I would take over Ed. Certainly no weapons. If we want to use the magic of hindsight and say we could have taken Deebo Samuel in the 1st, I don't think that is being reasonable with how everyone felt on draft day. Now, AJ Brown or Metcalf in the 2nd is a valid argument. I know there were posters here begging for DK in the 2nd. And we wouldnt have even needed to trade up like we did for Cody Ford. But we did make an offensive pick in the 2nd. (And we picked a guy who plays offense. badum tss)

 

2020 - 1st round pick, Diggs. So there's that. For Epenesa's pick, I guess there is JK Dobbins right after, but not too impressed there. Denzel Mims at WR? Yikes. Given AJE's emergence this year, seems like the right pick. Hope we can re-sign him.

 

2021 - Rousseau/Basham. I think we all know what round 2 should have been. It's imo Beane's biggest mistake to date. However, I don't see an offensive weapon or even contributor we should have picked over Rousseau. Even with the benefit of hindsight.

 

2022 - Elam. Reminiscent of 2021, Tyler Linderbaum was there, I was hoping for him, but alas... However, it's not like Linderbaum has been amazing, and I dont think he's much of a weapon. I do think with either him or Humphrey we win the Vikings game. And they would have helped us get out of Morse's contract earlier. But I dont think we missed anything to weaponize the offense. Breece Hall I guess. But a 1st round RB? Sure, anything is better than what Elam has been so far. But I still would have gone Defense here and picked Dax Hill instead.

 

edit: I typed this out all the way until my 2pm call started so didnt have any time to provide commentary. Looking back...

 

So, out of 8 possible picks across the first 2 rounds of these drafts, 3 went to Offense and 5 went to Defense. Only 1 year, 2020 2nd round, did Beane miss the opportunity to add a real weapon but did use that pick on Offense. He twice missed on drafting Morse's replacement, and both of those picks were major whiffs on Defense.

 

Honestly seems like the balance isnt tooo far off. It's more that those whiffs make it hurt worse. Ford, Basham, Elam instead of Brown, Humphrey, Hill/Hall.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2023 by DrDawkinstein

[GoBills808]

10 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Ok, lets! (I honestly have no idea how this is going to go as I type it out)

 

2019 - Ed Oliver. I don't see an Offensive player that was taken in the rest of the 1st round that I would take over Ed. Certainly no weapons. If we want to use the magic of hindsight and say we could have taken Deebo Samuel in the 1st, I don't think that is being reasonable with how everyone felt on draft day. Now, AJ Brown or Metcalf in the 2nd is a valid argument. I know there were posters here begging for DK in the 2nd. And we wouldnt have even needed to trade up like we did for Cody Ford. But we did make an offensive pick in the 2nd. (And we picked a guy who plays offense. badum tss)

 

2020 - 1st round pick, Diggs. So there's that. For Epenesa's pick, I guess there is JK Dobbins right after, but not too impressed there. Denzel Mims at WR? Yikes. Given AJE's emergence this year, seems like the right pick. Hope we can re-sign him.

 

2021 - Rousseau/Basham. I think we all know what round 2 should have been. It's imo Beane's biggest mistake to date. However, I don't see an offensive weapon or even contributor we should have picked over Rousseau. Even with the benefit of hindsight.

 

2022 - Elam. Reminiscent of 2021, Tyler Linderbaum was there, I was hoping for him, but alas... However, it's not like Linderbaum has been amazing, and I dont think he's much of a weapon. I do think with either him or Humphrey we win the Vikings game. And they would have helped us get out of Morse's contract earlier. But I dont think we missed anything to weaponize the offense. Breece Hall I guess. But a 1st round RB? Sure, anything is better than what Elam has been so far. But I still would have gone Defense here and picked Dax Hill instead.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm leery of doing the whole 'who we could have had otherwise' exercise myself, just thinking on balance we could likely profit more spending top picks on offense at much higher frequency than we have 

[Einstein's Dog]

1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

2022 - Elam. Reminiscent of 2021, Tyler Linderbaum was there, I was hoping for him, but alas... However, it's not like Linderbaum has been amazing, and I dont think he's much of a weapon. I do think with either him or Humphrey we win the Vikings game. And they would have helped us get out of Morse's contract earlier. But I dont think we missed anything to weaponize the offense. Breece Hall I guess. But a 1st round RB? Sure, anything is better than what Elam has been so far. But I still would have gone Defense here and picked Dax Hill instead.

 

Appreciate the time and effort to do a more thorough look back.  Not nearly as bad as the OP is making it out to be.  But two comments from me. 

 

First for 2022 I was hoping they would go WR - there were two (IMO) premium picks sliding down, C Watkins who GB took that had great camp numbers, and G Pickens.

 

Secondly, I think you should have included the 2023 draft where the first two rounds went to offense and are great picks.  Would have thought that would have ended these kind of stupid OP rants.

[Augie]

3 hours ago, Aussie Joe said:

I actually like our undersized linebacker Bernard 

 

 

 

That Milano guy isn’t too shabby when healthy, either. 

 

3 hours ago, Aussie Joe said:

So what about Kincaid ?

 

We ignore the things that don’t fit our narrative, obviously. 🤷‍♂️ 

[JohnNord]

3 hours ago, margolbe said:

Don't know for sure, but some of Beane's picks sure looked like stretches -- like he was told from McD that he needs this kind of player.

So what’s the difference between a McDermott pick and a Beane pick?  
 

it’s obviously that your take is intellectually dishonest and biased.
 

It reminds me when Whaley apologists would says “he only drafted players for Rex Ryan.”  Ok…if that’s the case, he drafted players that were completely busts regardless

[2003Contenders]

2 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Ok, lets! (I honestly have no idea how this is going to go as I type it out)

 

2019 - Ed Oliver. I don't see an Offensive player that was taken in the rest of the 1st round that I would take over Ed. Certainly no weapons. If we want to use the magic of hindsight and say we could have taken Deebo Samuel in the 1st, I don't think that is being reasonable with how everyone felt on draft day. Now, AJ Brown or Metcalf in the 2nd is a valid argument. I know there were posters here begging for DK in the 2nd. And we wouldnt have even needed to trade up like we did for Cody Ford. But we did make an offensive pick in the 2nd. (And we picked a guy who plays offense. badum tss)

 

2020 - 1st round pick, Diggs. So there's that. For Epenesa's pick, I guess there is JK Dobbins right after, but not too impressed there. Denzel Mims at WR? Yikes. Given AJE's emergence this year, seems like the right pick. Hope we can re-sign him.

 

2021 - Rousseau/Basham. I think we all know what round 2 should have been. It's imo Beane's biggest mistake to date. However, I don't see an offensive weapon or even contributor we should have picked over Rousseau. Even with the benefit of hindsight.

 

2022 - Elam. Reminiscent of 2021, Tyler Linderbaum was there, I was hoping for him, but alas... However, it's not like Linderbaum has been amazing, and I dont think he's much of a weapon. I do think with either him or Humphrey we win the Vikings game. And they would have helped us get out of Morse's contract earlier. But I dont think we missed anything to weaponize the offense. Breece Hall I guess. But a 1st round RB? Sure, anything is better than what Elam has been so far. But I still would have gone Defense here and picked Dax Hill instead.

 

edit: I typed this out all the way until my 2pm call started so didnt have any time to provide commentary. Looking back...

 

So, out of 8 possible picks across the first 2 rounds of these drafts, 3 went to Offense and 5 went to Defense. Only 1 year, 2020 2nd round, did Beane miss the opportunity to add a real weapon but did use that pick on Offense. He twice missed on drafting Morse's replacement, and both of those picks were major whiffs on Defense.

 

Honestly seems like the balance isnt tooo far off. It's more that those whiffs make it hurt worse. Ford, Basham, Elam instead of Brown, Humphrey, Hill/Hall.

 

 

 

 

Excellent summary!

 

While Beane is the one who officially makes each pick, like all teams in the NFL, the Bills operate under a consensus type process. Beane, the scouts and the coaches (yes, including McD) are all part of the equation. Beane and the scouts work with the coaching staff to understand what style of offense/defense they run and dig to find players that fit the respective style.

 

As a side note that is what makes the Elam pick all the more perplexing -- as the book on him coming out of college was that he was not a good fit for McD's defense. And Beane traded up for him to boot. Perhaps, as some have speculated, it really was a panic move after the run on CBs in the draft.

[1st&ten]

I understand the desire for a first round receiver. I think we'll need to draft a receiver & a defensive back early next year but I'd like to see us draft the best center in the draft if he falls to us. We might even be able to move down a few spots & gain a pick. If we can get a monster center Josh will have more time in the pocket to pick defenses apart. Morse can stay on as a back center & guard. We can still get a good receiver in the 2nd round & hopefully a good defensive back in the third.

[transplantbillsfan]

4 hours ago, margolbe said:

The greatest strength of this team is offense, so we don't need to keep drafting undersized linebackers and corners who can't cover.

 

We need a true number 2 wide receiver (assuming Diggs stays), another offensive lineman (or two), a RB in the line of Murray, but with youth.  
On the defensive side we need someone to replace DeQuan Jones (assuming he goes elsewhere).  Don't know how Milano is going to recover, so we should consider his replacement.

 

I also think it would worth drafting a developmental quarterback so we don't all have to sweat when Josh takes a hard hit.

 

I hope that we also hire a defensive coordinator.  Although McDermott is a genius in his own mind, we need a fresh voice on defense.  We also need to fire the ST coach and get some one good in here.

 

Wasn't it McDermott who convinced Beane to draft Bernard, though?

[Rigotz]

In 2020 Beane drafted Jake Fromm, the developmental QB, in the 5th round. It was a wasted pick.

 

That same year we got Tyler Bass in the 6th round, Dane Jackson in the 7th, and Isaiah Hodgins in the 6th.

 

In 2022, we got Christian Benford in the 5th, Khalil Shakir in the 5th, and Matt Araiza in the 6th.

 

There are 20+ other teams looking for a QB with any type of talent. We will need to spend a premium pick to get one in the draft. I'd rather have the guys above than take a 10% shot on maybe having a decent, young backup QB instead of a proven vet.

 

 

[LABILLBACKER]

4 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

Do you think it's a coincidence that 2017's first priority was overhauling their secondary?  And yeah I know, Beane wasn't "officially" here yet.  

 

Or that they prioritized signing Star to a 5 year 50M deal in 2018?  You know, during the time they were getting out of the previous regime's cap issues? 

 

Or, used 5 of 7 1st round picks on defense from 2017-2022?

 

Or, have targeted defensive players first in each UFA period save for perhaps 1 maybe 2 since McD took over?  

 

Nah, McD isn't the prime voice at OBD.  Not enough evidence. 👌

Exactly....people are so silly and naive. McDermott is the alpha male. He runs this team. He literally hired Beane who reports to McDermott.  I'd even go as far as to say Sean has Terry wrapped around his finger. These defensive selections were 100% influenced if not outright chosen by McDermott.  

[CincyBillsFan]

4 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Ok, lets! (I honestly have no idea how this is going to go as I type it out)

 

2019 - Ed Oliver. I don't see an Offensive player that was taken in the rest of the 1st round that I would take over Ed. Certainly no weapons. If we want to use the magic of hindsight and say we could have taken Deebo Samuel in the 1st, I don't think that is being reasonable with how everyone felt on draft day. Now, AJ Brown or Metcalf in the 2nd is a valid argument. I know there were posters here begging for DK in the 2nd. And we wouldnt have even needed to trade up like we did for Cody Ford. But we did make an offensive pick in the 2nd. (And we picked a guy who plays offense. badum tss)

 

2020 - 1st round pick, Diggs. So there's that. For Epenesa's pick, I guess there is JK Dobbins right after, but not too impressed there. Denzel Mims at WR? Yikes. Given AJE's emergence this year, seems like the right pick. Hope we can re-sign him.

 

2021 - Rousseau/Basham. I think we all know what round 2 should have been. It's imo Beane's biggest mistake to date. However, I don't see an offensive weapon or even contributor we should have picked over Rousseau. Even with the benefit of hindsight.

 

2022 - Elam. Reminiscent of 2021, Tyler Linderbaum was there, I was hoping for him, but alas... However, it's not like Linderbaum has been amazing, and I dont think he's much of a weapon. I do think with either him or Humphrey we win the Vikings game. And they would have helped us get out of Morse's contract earlier. But I dont think we missed anything to weaponize the offense. Breece Hall I guess. But a 1st round RB? Sure, anything is better than what Elam has been so far. But I still would have gone Defense here and picked Dax Hill instead.

 

edit: I typed this out all the way until my 2pm call started so didnt have any time to provide commentary. Looking back...

 

So, out of 8 possible picks across the first 2 rounds of these drafts, 3 went to Offense and 5 went to Defense. Only 1 year, 2020 2nd round, did Beane miss the opportunity to add a real weapon but did use that pick on Offense. He twice missed on drafting Morse's replacement, and both of those picks were major whiffs on Defense.

 

Honestly seems like the balance isnt tooo far off. It's more that those whiffs make it hurt worse. Ford, Basham, Elam instead of Brown, Humphrey, Hill/Hall.

 

 

 

 

We could have moved up 3 places and grabbed Hockinson at TE in 2019.  That would have been a home run for Allen & a rebuilding offense.

 

In 2022, I have to believe there were multiple high impact FA's on the offensive side of the ball that we could have pursued and landed for the money spent on Miller.

 

Ditto the FA money spent on Defensive linemen versus offensive linemen during this period.  It seems that the Bills spent more on higher end defensive line FA's then they did on offensive linemen.  Beyond Morse in 2019 and McGovern in 2023 what high impact FA O line signings have the Bills made?  And calling McGovern a high impact signing is stretching it.

 

IMO since 2019 the Bills should have been committing 60% FA money & draft pick capitol to the offense and 40% to the defense. So your figure of 3 high draft capitol picks going to the offense and 5 to the defense is in fact a huge discrepancy on where the Bills should have been committing their draft capitol.  Throw in the discrepancy in FA signings between the O and D and the Bills problems become very clear.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

6 hours ago, JohnNord said:

I love how because McDermott is an unpopular figure around here, everything that’s gone wrong is his fault 🤣🤣😂

 

How do you know that it was McDermott who insisted on making these picks?  How do you know it wasn’t Beane who insisted on defense?

 

 

 

Totally agree. It is because fans want to believe he is the bogey man and removing him is a simple fix. The reality of what is wrong with the Bills is deeper. I don't think McDermott could have many complaints if he misses the playoffs and is fired. But equally the idea that everything will then be rosey is far fetched. They have an old roster that needs a reset. They have a GM that has control of personnel no matter what fans think and has struggled to draft true difference makers. They have ownership that has proven itself confused in its decision making before. And their best asset is their Quarterback whose performances fluctuate wildly still. 

 

The people hoping it is fire McDermott and all roads lead to a Lombardi are kidding themselves.

18 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

We could have moved up 3 places and grabbed Hockinson at TE in 2019.  That would have been a home run for Allen & a rebuilding offense.

 

In 2022, I have to believe there were multiple high impact FA's on the offensive side of the ball that we could have pursued and landed for the money spent on Miller.

 

Ditto the FA money spent on Defensive linemen versus offensive linemen during this period.  It seems that the Bills spent more on higher end defensive line FA's then they did on offensive linemen.  Beyond Morse in 2019 and McGovern in 2023 what high impact FA O line signings have the Bills made?  And calling McGovern a high impact signing is stretching it.

 

IMO since 2019 the Bills should have been committing 60% FA money & draft pick capitol to the offense and 40% to the defense. So your figure of 3 high draft capitol picks going to the offense and 5 to the defense is in fact a huge discrepancy on where the Bills should have been committing their draft capitol.  Throw in the discrepancy in FA signings between the O and D and the Bills problems become very clear.

 

 

 

I agree with most of this but I'd take Ed Oliver over Hock 100 times out of 100.

[JohnNord]

4 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Ok, lets! (I honestly have no idea how this is going to go as I type it out)

 

2019 - Ed Oliver. I don't see an Offensive player that was taken in the rest of the 1st round that I would take over Ed. Certainly no weapons. If we want to use the magic of hindsight and say we could have taken Deebo Samuel in the 1st, I don't think that is being reasonable with how everyone felt on draft day. Now, AJ Brown or Metcalf in the 2nd is a valid argument. I know there were posters here begging for DK in the 2nd. And we wouldnt have even needed to trade up like we did for Cody Ford. But we did make an offensive pick in the 2nd. (And we picked a guy who plays offense. badum tss)

 

2020 - 1st round pick, Diggs. So there's that. For Epenesa's pick, I guess there is JK Dobbins right after, but not too impressed there. Denzel Mims at WR? Yikes. Given AJE's emergence this year, seems like the right pick. Hope we can re-sign him.

 

2021 - Rousseau/Basham. I think we all know what round 2 should have been. It's imo Beane's biggest mistake to date. However, I don't see an offensive weapon or even contributor we should have picked over Rousseau. Even with the benefit of hindsight.

 

2022 - Elam. Reminiscent of 2021, Tyler Linderbaum was there, I was hoping for him, but alas... However, it's not like Linderbaum has been amazing, and I dont think he's much of a weapon. I do think with either him or Humphrey we win the Vikings game. And they would have helped us get out of Morse's contract earlier. But I dont think we missed anything to weaponize the offense. Breece Hall I guess. But a 1st round RB? Sure, anything is better than what Elam has been so far. But I still would have gone Defense here and picked Dax Hill instead.

 

edit: I typed this out all the way until my 2pm call started so didnt have any time to provide commentary. Looking back...

 

So, out of 8 possible picks across the first 2 rounds of these drafts, 3 went to Offense and 5 went to Defense. Only 1 year, 2020 2nd round, did Beane miss the opportunity to add a real weapon but did use that pick on Offense. He twice missed on drafting Morse's replacement, and both of those picks were major whiffs on Defense.

 

Honestly seems like the balance isnt tooo far off. It's more that those whiffs make it hurt worse. Ford, Basham, Elam instead of Brown, Humphrey, Hill/Hall.

 

 

 

 

I never liked the Boogie Basham draft pick and I’ll always say that missing really hurt the team.  Not only the players they could have drafted but the fact that his lack of developed made the signing of a Von Miller that much more of a priority.  

 

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Totally agree. It is because fans want to believe he is the bogey man and removing him is a simple fix. The reality of what is wrong with the Bills is deeper. I don't think McDermott could have many complaints if he misses the playoffs and is fired. But equally the idea that everything will then be rosey is far fetched. They have an old roster that needs a reset. They have a GM that has control of personnel no matter what fans think and has struggled to draft true difference makers. They have ownership that has proven itself confused in its decision making before. And their best asset is their Quarterback whose performances fluctuate wildly still. 

 

The people hoping it is fire McDermott and all roads lead to a Lombardi are kidding themselves.

 

I agree with most of this but I'd take Ed Oliver over Hock 100 times out of 100.

If you want to argue that the Bills have spent higher picks on defensive players and that they’ve missed on hitting home runs that’s fine.

 

But to imply that the bad players were McDermott picks is just scapegoating 

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

If you want to argue that the Bills have spent higher picks on defensive players and that they’ve missed on hitting home runs that’s fine.

 

But to imply that the bad players were McDermott picks is just scapegoating 

 

It is also not true.

[SoCal Deek]

I find it comical that fans think a player’s career starts and ends on draft day. It doesn’t! It’s up to our highly compensated coaching staff to COACH these guys up to being the best they can be. In business I used to marvel at how a client/customer would select us for a contract presumably because they thought we were experts at what we do….but once hired they’d often treat us like we were morons. 

Edited December 5, 2023 by SoCal Deek

[FireChans]

6 hours ago, DCofNC said:

But but but but, they traded a first for Diggs, in a wildly deep WR class.  The pick they traded turned into Jefferson, they could have sent virtually the same package and had Lamb, why does is matter? CAP space.   Those guys are studs on rookie deals.  Yes they are going to get paid, BUT you could have saved 2 starting DTs worth of cap for 4/5 years and when you paid them, have a 24 year old, not a 30 year old.  That’s huge. 
 

For as much hate as I give Davis, he’s been a very productive 4th round pick and if he was playing the #3 the way he should be, nobody would be mad. 
 

The problem with the assets being spent on drafting D isn’t that you spent the picks, it’s that you didn’t hit on any of them.  Back to back DEs that were so impactful, you had to go sign an aging Miller to a monster deal and that obviously looks even worse now.   Oliver is fine, but 3 DTs after him are absolutely in a different league than he is.  Elam.. good lord.. that one cost us next years 3rd round pick and more money to make up for that gaffe in order to survive this year. 
 

The thing the apologist want to argue is the number of guys Beane drafted that are in the NFL.  The reality is, quantity is nice, but they’re no impact players.  Literally none.   There’s a chance that he finally hit with Kincaid, but that remains to be seen as right now he basically producing as a good slot WR.  Don’t get me wrong, love it, but that’s not a massive impact player, yet. 
 

The reason this team is in cap hell is poor drafting.  The reason this team is looked at as having lesser talent vs the other contenders is POOR DRAFTING.  If we want to be really honest, neither Beane nor McClappy would be here if they had not hit on Allen.  Without him elevating the entire team, both would be elsewhere.

If there is one Beane move I will never ever complain about, it’s trading for Diggs. Even if Jefferson ends up being the second best WR in history.

 

Diggs had borderline #1 WR play at the NFL level, and was a much lower risk than the fourth WR off the board.

 

Josh needed Diggs to blossom into the top 2 QB he is. And the Bills needed Josh to blossom. Jefferson could’ve been just okay, he could’ve been a late bloomer, he also could have been a flat out bust.

 

The path to developing a young QB is clear. You draft a QB with the physical tools and you pair him with an elite or near elite weapon.

 

The Dolphins did it with Tua. The Bears tried with Moore. The Bills did it with Diggs. The Bengals did it with Chase (drafted, but he was the clear best receiver in the draft and wasn’t the 4th WR at pick 22). The Eagles did it with AJ Brown. The Eagles also did it with Alshon Jeffrey back in the day. 
 

it was simply the most important move outside of drafting Allen himself that got us franchise QB level play. 

[JohnNord]

12 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I find it comical that fans think a player’s career starts and ends on draft day. It doesn’t! It’s up to our highly compensated coaching staff to COACH these guys up to being the best they can be. In business I used to marvel at how a client/customer would select us for a contract presumably because they thought we were experts at what we do….but once hired they’d often treat us like we were morons. 

It is a cop out to put it all on coaching.  For a variety of reasons some player’s games don’t  transcend to the professional game.   There’s always high draft picks that don’t work with a variety of teams and coaches.  
 

I will agree that sometimes the landing spot helps determine the trajectory of a player’s success and that includes coaching.  
 

But by your definition, Boogie Basham should have been a star with the Giants.  He’s the same player.  It’s on Boogie…not coaching.  

[Kincaid Kool-Aid]

6 hours ago, thenorthremembers said:

Right.  We should just start drafting guys who the coach cant use in his system.  Sounds like a great idea.

Beat me to it. Regardless if you think McDermott is terrible, not being on the same page with him is not a way to help things get better...

[FireChans]

42 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

We could have moved up 3 places and grabbed Hockinson at TE in 2019.  That would have been a home run for Allen & a rebuilding offense.

 

In 2022, I have to believe there were multiple high impact FA's on the offensive side of the ball that we could have pursued and landed for the money spent on Miller.

 

Ditto the FA money spent on Defensive linemen versus offensive linemen during this period.  It seems that the Bills spent more on higher end defensive line FA's then they did on offensive linemen.  Beyond Morse in 2019 and McGovern in 2023 what high impact FA O line signings have the Bills made?  And calling McGovern a high impact signing is stretching it.

 

IMO since 2019 the Bills should have been committing 60% FA money & draft pick capitol to the offense and 40% to the defense. So your figure of 3 high draft capitol picks going to the offense and 5 to the defense is in fact a huge discrepancy on where the Bills should have been committing their draft capitol.  Throw in the discrepancy in FA signings between the O and D and the Bills problems become very clear.

 

 

History is misremembered here.

 

Daryl Williams was picked out of a dumpster and was excellent at RT in 2020. The Bills gave him a nice little 3 year extension. They even spent a third round pick on an RT to be groomed under him. 
 

Then Daryl went back to sucking, Spencer Brown was forced into duty and there we were.

 

Quinton Spain was another dumpster dive candidate who was signed in 19, played pretty good, and unfortunately ended up cut the next year in camp in favor of the walking bust Cody Ford who was drafted in the second round (there was some weird drama there behind the scenes).

 

So really, when were we supposed to make this big splash FA signing on the line? We have had Morse and Dawkins starting for years, and have our own fair share of decent starters and high draft picks waiting in the wings.