Jordan Palmer on Allen - It’s more about the loss Brian Daboll, who Bellicheck says is elite

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

Yo I remember when I was the only one here who would post positive things about Brian Daboll and everyone would either vomit or laugh haha

[NoSaint]

7 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

This is something that elite QB’s go through.  If you are a top offense, your coordinator isn’t going to stay long.

 

Allen might go through 5 OC’s by the time his career is over.  Most, if not all elite QB’s go through multiple coordinators. 

perhaps why your HC needs to be your OC in general 

[GunnerBill]

41 minutes ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

Yo I remember when I was the only one here who would post positive things about Brian Daboll and everyone would either vomit or laugh haha

 

You weren't quite the only one. I was a regular Daboll defender. But it was like holding back the hoards at times. 

[Mango]

20 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

You weren't quite the only one. I was a regular Daboll defender. But it was like holding back the hoards at times. 

I agree there were some problems with Daboll here and that he did some good things in providing Josh some things he could execute well like plays where everybody ran a hook route, or all crossers and Josh rolling out. Both helped Josh either throw or run. That’s it. 
 

But at some point when you pay your guy $250M he has to be good at well…the entire playbook. I think that’s a big criticism I’ve had for some time even regarding the WR position. Like, “woah hold up, you’re telling me that my $250M star QB needs a 1a, 1b at both outside spots, plus a pretty good TE”. When the QB gets laid the expectations change across the board from weapons to executing the entire playbook. 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Mango

[Not at the table Karlos]

8 hours ago, Doc said:

Even with that 40-0 drubbing on opening night?

Kind of like the 31-0 drubbing the bills put on the pats* week 1 years ago. Patriots dynasty ended that day

 

/

[BillsFan2313]

7 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

His roster really isn’t great. He got them to overachieve last season.

 

Though unprecedented, perhaps that is what should have happened.

 

Here we go....

[NoHuddleKelly12]

35 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

You weren't quite the only one. I was a regular Daboll defender. But it was like holding back the hoards at times. 

I believe the mantra from the pitchfork wielders was something along the lines of, “can’t he ever run the ball, or utilize the TE position??”

[MJS]

It's amazing that Bills fans are so nostalgic about Daboll when there were many here complaining about him continually and many even happy that he left as a HC.

 

It never ends with the revisionist history around here.

[Chaos]

8 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

This is something that elite QB’s go through.  If you are a top offense, your coordinator isn’t going to stay long.

 

Allen might go through 5 OC’s by the time his career is over.  Most, if not all elite QB’s go through multiple coordinators. 

Yes, but sometimes not multiple head coaches. Ie Bellichek, Reid.  

McDermott has publically chosen to not own the offensive failures since the start of his tenure.  He is not and cannot be any source of continuity to subsitute for rolling OC.  Long term decision making by Beane ought to consider if this is impactful or not. 

[HOUSE]

Let me tally this up...

Daboll 40

Dorsey 0

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

53 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

You weren't quite the only one. I was a regular Daboll defender. But it was like holding back the hoards at times. 

"It's all Josh" was the prevailing wisdom at the time.

[Punching Bag]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

You weren't quite the only one. I was a regular Daboll defender. But it was like holding back the hoards at times. 

 

Agree,  Coach Diabolical was and still is my nickname for him.   The first year he and Josh did not get along but something changed and they became good buddies having far more contact than NFLPA wants.

[GunnerBill]

15 minutes ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

"It's all Josh" was the prevailing wisdom at the time.

 

And remained so until about 3 days ago. Then when it goes wrong it's all the coaches. 

[Punching Bag]

50 minutes ago, Mango said:

I agree there were some problems with Daboll here and that he did some good things in providing Josh some things he could execute well like plays where everybody ran a hook route, or all crossers and Josh rolling out. Both helped Josh either throw or run. That’s it. 
 

But at some point when you pay your guy $250M he has to be good at well…the entire playbook. I think that’s a big criticism I’ve had for some time even regarding the WR position. Like, “woah hold up, you’re telling me that my $250M star QB needs a 1a, 1b at both outside spots, plus a pretty good TE”. When the QB gets laid the expectations change across the board from weapons to executing the entire playbook. 

So we need a virgin QB to succeed.  

[Fan in Chicago]

10 minutes ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

"It's all Josh" was the prevailing wisdom at the time.

Which could be true right now as well. Do we really know how hard Dorsey is trying to put schemes in around Allen's limitations? And how often JA goes off script to destroy those plans?

What's frustrating to me is that many respected posters think that he will always need a guy to manage Allen's tendencies. How many successful QBs in the NFL have needed such constant guidance counselling and baby sitting ? If he needs more years psychologically to develop and needs a strong voice around him all the time, we have a major problem. In high stress situations, such as playoffs and Superbowl, that QB will be out there on the field. You cannot hope that he won't go off the deep end and shut off all calming voices. 

Josh has to own his own development, he has to accept he has a major problem and commit to long term change. It will be hard but if he wants to earn his high paycheck and achieve what he is capable off, there is no other choice. I have equated this problem to an addiction - success only comes when the addict accepts the issue,  gets help and makes the hard changes. Such success doesn't happen by always having a baby sitter to keep the person from relapsing

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

a couple perspectives

 

1) Belichick was always highly complimentary of his tree. few success stories as of yet. 
 

2) the off season QB coach finding external excuses for his buddy and client, who he assured us would be the best in the league by now, is hardly surprising. 
 

3) it doesn’t take a genius to coach up hitting the wide open flat on 3rd and 2 instead of the double covered corner route. But I do agree daboll would have probably been harder on Josh for being dumb. 
 

 

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

You weren't quite the only one. I was a regular Daboll defender. But it was like holding back the hoards at times. 

I was a defender too. The good ol’ days!

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

1 hour ago, NoSaint said:

perhaps why your HC needs to be your OC in general 

[colin]

we were 7-6 13 games into dabol's last year hear, and that includes him getting totally outcoached by urban friken meyer.

 

it's possible daboll is just better than dorsey, its also possible they both suck.  

 

the willies and the joes matter much more than the x's and the o's, and we were set up to win monday night and josh allen just delivered four abortions.

 

we can get right this week vs the raiders.

[Doc]

8 hours ago, Reed83HOF said:

yup...

 

The Giants have an escape hatch after the 2024 season. They can cut ties with Jones to create $21.5 million in cap savings while eating $18 million in dead money. It’s not ideal to eat $18 million in dead money, but with a projected $282 million salary cap in 2025, the Giants could absorb that hit if they’re compelled to dump Jones

 

True there's an out after 2024 (with a $22M cap hit), but Daboll was brought-in to make Jones a franchise QB.  If the can't do that and they're looking for a new QB in 2025...

 

8 hours ago, Einstein said:

His roster really isn’t great. He got them to overachieve last season.

 

That won't play well with the Giants fans, media and probably ownership.  He might be a victim of his own early success.

 

5 hours ago, Limeaid said:

You could say same thing about Cheats being drubbed on opening night by Bills.

 

Single games especially openers can be due to a lot of reasons especially players not working together before.

 

It is easy to do with posters flipping back and forth on position which is made worse by those who goal appears to be able to say "I was right" ever time something goes wrong.  They would have issues with a 51-3 win in Superbowl for defense allowed them to score.

1 hour ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

Kind of like the 31-0 drubbing the bills put on the pats* week 1 years ago. Patriots dynasty ended that day

 

/

 

That was due to Lawyer Milloy.  But as I said, we'll have to see how the rest of the season goes.

[All_Pro_Bills]

Allen doesn't need Daboll to teach or mentor him that throwing into double, triple coverage is unwise and usually results in a bad outcome.  All he needs to do is apply what experience has once again demonstrated on Monday night and stop doing it.  No more speeches and post mortem press conferences on how I've got to make smarter decisions. 

 

Schools out.  No more excuses.  Just make smarter decisions and choose another option that has a much better chance of success that will move the chains and lead to points.

Edited September 14, 2023 by All_Pro_Bills

[HOUSE]

Bellichick said Mac Jones was elite too.

Just saying

[UKBillFan]

2 hours ago, NoSaint said:

perhaps why your HC needs to be your OC in general 

 

I think this is a very valid point. Either way, Dorsey won't be with the Bills for long unless he becomes HC. He'll succeed and become a HC in his own right, or fail and be fired. It was only because Josh took, and was given, time to develop that Daboll hung around for so long. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

2 hours ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

Yo I remember when I was the only one here who would post positive things about Brian Daboll and everyone would either vomit or laugh haha

Nope. I was straight defending Daboll daily.

 

 

[pocoboy]

That's been my inherent belief all along, that Daboll was more effective at extracting the potential out of the offensive playbook. The devil is in the details, you can just slap a playbook together with this route tree and that zone block scheme...but there are going to be ways to optimize the effectiveness of those plays. For example:

• The receiver who is supposed to tie up Whitehead's attention long enough to get Diggs open on that post (Sherfield?)
• Gabe running an unassuming flag route that gets jumped.
• Late last season, there was a play where Dawson made a head fake which totally created the room necessary to fit the ball in on a TD.

My contention is that some of Daboll's keys are still remembered & run - Diggs is probably first and foremost. But with new receivers, if they aren't being shown those gritty details that turn a batted down ball (or in Monday night's cases all too often, an INT) into a tight-window completion, it's gonna be a whole lot tougher for this offense to succeed.

Edited September 14, 2023 by pocoboy

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

1 hour ago, Limeaid said:

So we need a virgin QB to succeed.  

A vigin QB who's in the film room 24/7

[Reed83HOF]

7 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

Yeah, I think I’ve read more about Daboll now that he’s no longer with the team, than I have when he was here. And when he was here I remember quite vividly the calls for his head and the wild speculation about the rift between he and McD.
 

Many wanted to see Daboll gone and now that they’ve got their wish, they want him back. 

There certainly was a rift between him and McD and there were certainly times the offense stalled during his time as OC, I'm certainly not disagreeing with any of that, what I do see different is the mentor-mentee relationship that him and Allen had is absent and that allows those bad traits to start to surface again. Allen certainly had those bad traits during his time with Daboll as well, but Josh did appear to learn from it and limit those opportunities. 

Lol 

Over the last 16 or 17 games, Josh is a bit different and the offense feels harder to get moving. The over the top stuff isn't there and Josh is pressing and the bad habits are creeping back. That's where that trusted mentor comes in, it's the soft skills and the trust between the teach and student or coach and player.

36 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

True there's an out after 2024 (with a $22M cap hit), but Daboll was brought-in to make Jones a franchise QB.  If the can't do that and they're looking for a new QB in 2025...

 

 

That won't play well with the Giants fans, media and probably ownership.  He might be a victim of his own early success.

 

 

That was due to Lawyer Milloy.  But as I said, we'll have to see how the rest of the season goes.

He was hired because he was the best candidate available, the owner wants someone who can fix Jones, but that doesn't mean he can be. In any event the giants will be rebuilt like the Bills, competitive tear down and rebuild. Regardless of what a team says about a QB or any player, what their actions and not their words...Zach Wilson is our guy....

[boyst]

8 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Daboll was very good and he had a magical ability to reign Josh in.  I often dream of a world where McD was fired after 13 seconds and Dabol/Schwartz came on board.  

after what happened in the 13 seconds, McChump saying people will be held accountable but didn't hold himself accountable, letting there be a huge rift in the locker room, and hanging on to Frazier - yes. 

[Reed83HOF]

1 hour ago, Limeaid said:

So we need a virgin QB to succeed.  

We don't need Tebow 

[mjt328]

On the first interception, Josh Allen had plenty of clear space to run for the first down.  And Dawson Knox open down the sideline for a possible touchdown throw.  He instead launched it into double coverage.

 

On the second, there was definitely pressure and I understand why he didn't want to take the sack.  But he could have thrown the ball at James Cook's feet (at the very least).  He made the worst possible decision and once again launched it into double coverage when Stefon Diggs had zero chance.

 

On the third interception, Josh Allen had two receivers open past the first down marker. He instead got greedy for another 10-15 yards and underthrew a corner route, allowing the safety to undercut the throw.

 

On the fumble, he completely took his eyes off the snap.  Then tried to run into traffic without fully securing the ball.

 

This is not a rookie QB who hasn't been taught properly.  This is a 6-year-veteran with a ton of experience and success to his name.  Fans always have the kneejerk reaction to blame coaching.  But none of this is on Ken Dorsey or Sean McDermott.  It was a total meltdown by our quarterback.  Plain and simple.

[DapperCam]

I wanted Daboll to move on, but I also don’t think Dorsey is an improvement. I don’t think those ideas contradict each other.

 

Kind of surprised Palmer would be this candid about a high profile client of his. Kind of makes me think Allen might agree.

[NoSaint]

36 minutes ago, UKBillFan said:

 

I think this is a very valid point. Either way, Dorsey won't be with the Bills for long unless he becomes HC. He'll succeed and become a HC in his own right, or fail and be fired. It was only because Josh took, and was given, time to develop that Daboll hung around for so long. 

and on a practical level a QB is the only player that stays on a team 15 years; so you need some level of slow evolution and not drastic shifts once you find the sweet spot

 

A defensive turns over essentially everyone multiple times in that window so having a few different coordinators on that side meshes the flow so much better. 

[Punching Bag]

8 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Daboll was very good and he had a magical ability to reign Josh in.  I often dream of a world where McD was fired after 13 seconds and Dabol/Schwartz came on board.  

 

Can't you spare some pixie dust from your day job?

[Reed83HOF]

2 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

On the first interception, Josh Allen had plenty of clear space to run for the first down.  And Dawson Knox open down the sideline for a possible touchdown throw.  He instead launched it into double coverage.

 

On the second, there was definitely pressure and I understand why he didn't want to take the sack.  But he could have thrown the ball at James Cook's feet (at the very least).  He made the worst possible decision and once again launched it into double coverage when Stefon Diggs had zero chance.

 

On the third interception, Josh Allen had two receivers open past the first down marker. He instead got greedy for another 10-15 yards and underthrew a corner route, allowing the safety to undercut the throw.

 

On the fumble, he completely took his eyes off the snap.  Then tried to run into traffic without fully securing the ball.

 

This is not a rookie QB who hasn't been taught properly.  This is a 6-year-veteran with a ton of experience and success to his name.  Fans always have the kneejerk reaction to blame coaching.  But none of this is on Ken Dorsey or Sean McDermott.  It was a total meltdown by our quarterback.  Plain and simple.

It's not really an x's and o's or there is a problem with the scheme, it's what the qb is choosing to do and feeding into his bad impulses. There certainly is the arm arrogance part of it, look at the int on the route where Davis was jumped. Space took a step or hesitated towards covering him instead focusing on the TE in front of it, which created a small window for josh to fit the ball in there. Whitehead read josh the whole time, what Aikman said about Davis route was true and if allen led the ball more outside ot may have been a catch like it was in the past. Hey I made this throw before and I can do it again instead of taking the other 2 options who would get me the first, the TE sauce was covering or the LB on Diggs over the middle.

 

Psychology when you have a qb who can make throws no one else can and is a risk taker, it is easy to be baited into taking those shots especially in a close game. Being wired the way he is with his physical abilities is entirely different than Brady who will dink and dunk you to death...

 

Peyton Manning who is likely as of now the best QB to ever play the position had built-in mentors within his own family. One of Mahomes biggest strengths is his understanding of the game, IIRC, he even mentioned that he doesn't watch much film either and he wasn't the best at reading the defense. It's that stiff that is missing, guys are open, but you need the tough love to pullback on those negative tendencies...

 

People generally only follow the tough love of people they respect as knowing more than them and that have thought them and brought them along...

[Low Positive]

This is why you want the HC to be the de facto OC if you have an elite QB. I wish Doug Pederson was coaching this team.

[Royale with Cheese]

2 hours ago, Chaos said:

Yes, but sometimes not multiple head coaches. Ie Bellichek, Reid.  

McDermott has publically chosen to not own the offensive failures since the start of his tenure.  He is not and cannot be any source of continuity to subsitute for rolling OC.  Long term decision making by Beane ought to consider if this is impactful or not. 

 

I don't agree with this.  If you have a guy that you trust to run the offense, you give them the keys.

[Warriorspikes51]

Allen needs more Tom Brady in his game from a mental aspect. 

 

If I were Beane and Sean, I'd seriously give Tom a call to see if he wants to be an Asst QB Coach

Or Fitzpatrick 

[Doc]

45 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

He was hired because he was the best candidate available, the owner wants someone who can fix Jones, but that doesn't mean he can be. In any event the giants will be rebuilt like the Bills, competitive tear down and rebuild. Regardless of what a team says about a QB or any player, what their actions and not their words...Zach Wilson is our guy....

 

This isn't a Bills rebuild/timeline, where they had Tyrod and then drafted Josh the following year and needed to develop him.  Jones was the 6th overall pick and going into his 5th year.  He had his best season in the NFL under Daboll last year and as a result they are paying him $40M/year for at least the next 2 years.  They will expect to see Jones continue to improve, not be replaced in 2 years time.  

Edited September 14, 2023 by Doc

[Reed83HOF]

4 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

This isn't a Bills rebuild/timeline, where they had Tyrod and then drafted Josh the following year and needed to develop him.  Jones was the 6th overall pick and going into his 5th year.  He had his best season in the NFL under Daboll last year and as a result they are paying him $40M/year for at least the next 2 years.  They will expect to see Jones continue to improve, not be replaced in 2 years time.  

If that's how they truly thought an out wouldn't exist at the end of next season in that contract. Schoen rightfully saw the qb market about to explode and kept what they had. How much was that both him and dabolls choice vs the owner who badly wants Jones to succeed? 

[Low Positive]

10 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

Allen needs more Tom Brady in his game from a mental aspect. 

 

If I were Beane and Sean, I'd seriously give Tom a call to see if he wants to be an Asst QB Coach

Or Fitzpatrick 

Tom’s not going to an assistant coach. And besides, he’s already a minority owner of another team. And Fitz makes a lot more money on Amazon than QB coaches make. What Inwould do is pay Jordan Palmer the largest QB coach contract in NFL history. But then again it’s not my money.