Jordan Palmer on Allen - It’s more about the loss Brian Daboll, who Bellicheck says is elite

[Royale with Cheese]

5 minutes ago, Chaos said:

You miss the point. I am responding to Josh needs to get used to a new OC every couple of years.  This is a formula for never having continuity on the offensive side of the ball. This is a competitive disadvantage compared to elite situations like Brady and Mahomes.    If we had a long term OC who is very good, that provides the continuity, which is fine. But the premise I responded to is rolling over OCs constantly.  Not sure what teams have won champions with a HC who disowns the offense and has new OCs every couple of years 

 

Brady had 5 different OC's between Tampa and NE.

This is just year two with Dorsey.  Who knows how long this lasts.  Maybe he's here for several years, maybe not.  We'll see.

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

Ok….Josh is the same under Dorsey as he was under Daboll.  My bad.  

 

If you truly believe that to be true, you shouldn’t spend so much time researching football, because it’s not helping very much.   

 

[deleted political crack]  Watch the games.  Eyes don’t lie.   Josh is visibly not the same.  The world sees it.

 

Oh, FFS.  I watch the games.  They tell me that at times under Daboll, Josh was playing like a wild man, throwing 3 INT per game and bailing out of the pocket/taking off or trying to hit the deep throw instead of taking what the D gave him.  Remember the phrase "Sugar High Josh Allen" coined by Kyle Brandt?  That nickname wasn't bestowed upon Josh because he was calm cool collected and taking what the defense gave him under Daboll, but now has become a different QB under Dorsey. 🙄

 

I think Dorsey and Allen should get a bit of a pass on the games where Josh was playing with a torn UCL last season and Josh explained that he had reverted to his college/1st 2 season overhand throwing motion that cost him accuracy, but perhaps YOU should watch the games - Josh had very good, calm and collected, taking what the offense gave him games against the Rams to open the season (though he did throw 2 picks), against KC, and IMO at the end of the season against Miami (not the playoff, the 2nd game) and NWE.

 

The ratio of the good games to bad games may differ - time will tell.  My point is, it's not that a totally different QB has emerged.  It's that the same guy who was termed "Sugar High Josh Allen" under Daboll, and that we thought had learnt better, has shown up.  It's not that Dorsey doesn't have short and intermediate options that are open schemed up for Josh; it's that  he's not taking them - that's not just my opinion, it appears to be the consensus of everyone who puts out all-22 content.

 

A person apparently can't win around here. If one just talks about what one sees with no examples, then it's "that's just your opinion, hit me with factsand examples".   I give examples, and your response is the Ad Hominem "watch the games, you shouldn't spend so much time researching football, it's not helping you much".  How about you put away your snark, and explain why, if Josh is now a different QB under Dorsey, he showed the same patterns before in the examples I gave?  Why did he get that Kyle Brandt moniker?

 

And Jesu, Man.  Unless the rules have changed drastically, there is absolutely no reason to drag politics into this by using it as an analogy. Plenty of places to talk politics on the Internet, including the PPP forum.  Talk Bills football here.

 

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Beck Water

[GoBills808]

Palmer out of line here imo

[NewEra]

5 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Oh, FFS.  I watch the games.  They tell me that at times under Daboll, Josh was playing like a wild man, throwing 3 INT per game and bailing out of the pocket/taking off.  Remember the phrase "Sugar High Josh Allen" coined by Kyle Brandt?  That nickname wasn't bestowed upon Josh because he was calm cool collected and taking what the defense gave him under Daboll, but now has become a different QB under Dorsey.

 

I think Dorsey and Allen should get a bit of a pass on the games where Josh was playing with a torn UCL last season, but perhaps YOU should watch the games - Josh had very good, calm and collected, taking what the offense gave him games against the Rams to open the season (though he did throw 2 picks), against KC, and IMO at the end of the season against Miami (not the playoff, the 2nd game) and NWE.

 

The ratio of the good games to bad games may differ - time will tell.  My point is, it's not that a totally different QB has emerged.  It's that the same guy who was termed "Sugar High Josh Allen" under Daboll, and that we thought had learnt better, has shown up.

 

A person apparently can't win around here. If one just talks about what one sees with no examples, then it's "that's just your opinion, hit me with facts".  Now I give examples, and your response is the Ad Hominem "watch the games, you shouldn't spend so much time researching football, it's not helping you much".  How about you put away your snark, and explain why, if Josh is now a different QB under Dorsey, he showed the same patterns before in the examples I gave? 

 

And Jesu, Man.  Unless the rules have changed drastically, there is absolutely no reason to drag politics into this by using it as an analogy. Plenty of places to talk politics on the Internet, including the PPP forum.  Talk Bills football here.

 

 

I’m not talking politics. I’m making a clear point.  You can find stats to that favor the sides of any debate.  
 

Josh IS more turnover prone since Daboll.  This is a fact.  He’s more turnover prone under Dorsey in his 5th and 6th years in the league than he was under Daboll as rookie and 2nd year player.  A rookie and 2nd year player most people said was a turnover waiting to happen.  He was reckless and everyone knew it.  Now he’s even more reckless…..and everyone knows it.  

You can bring up all the examples that you like.  Just like stats.  There are examples of several things that aren’t true. I have one example.  Look at his career turnover per game under Daboll, including the years he was considered a raw prospect that needed a LOT of work.  Now look at his turnovers per game as a 5th and 6th year all pro.  

 

so let me me ask you this.  Since halftime of the Green Bay game last season,  do you think Josh Allen has regressed or is he the same or better QB that we saw in 2020 and 21?  

 

27 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Brady had 5 different OC's between Tampa and NE.

This is just year two with Dorsey.  Who knows how long this lasts.  Maybe he's here for several years, maybe not.  We'll see.

Your talk about Brady and Belichick.  Who else?  
 

You don’t agree that it would be beneficial to have an offensive HC, one where the QB will be using the same system and have the same play calling year after year?  The same voice to lean on.  To have someone that has proven to be good at what they do year after year.  Instead of rolling the dice with new guys and new systems that, in many cases, haven’t even called played before. 

[BillsUberAlles]

Not sure the best coach in football would have his team look completely unprepared and inept in a season opener, allow a TD in all 3 phases and get steamrolled 40-0 at home.

 

But that's just me.

Edited September 14, 2023 by BillsUberAlles

[gjv]

I hope Josh Allen is not reading any of this S--t.

[PatsFanNH]

15 hours ago, Doc said:

Even with that 40-0 drubbing on opening night?

One game does not a season or a coach make.. after all good teams play poorly at times. There are many examples.

[Beck Water]

42 minutes ago, NewEra said:

You can bring up all the examples that you like.  Just like stats.  There are examples of several things that aren’t true. I have one example.  Look at his career turnover per game under Daboll, including the years he was considered a raw prospect that needed a LOT of work.  Now look at his turnovers per game as a 5th and 6th year all pro.  

 

so let me me ask you this.  Since halftime of the Green Bay game last season,  do you think Josh Allen has regressed or is he the same or better QB that we saw in 2020 and 21?  

 

 

OK, let's try this.

 

Here is a chart of Josh Allen's INT (1 2 or 3) thrown, per game played (regular season or playoff), in numerical order.

Without looking it up, pick the point where Dorsey took over.

 

 

I'll hang up and watch.  (click to get something you can see)

 

You're making a valid point about examples and stats being able to be used to make any point, but you're using it somewhat ironically.

 

Edit: Here's a chart of Josh Allen's turnovers (0,1,2,3,4) per game played, in case one wishes to advance the argument that looking at total turnovers, not just interceptions, presents a different picture.  Same challenge: pick the game #, without looking it up, where Dorsey took over.

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Beck Water

[PatsFanNH]

14 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

This is something that elite QB’s go through.  If you are a top offense, your coordinator isn’t going to stay long.

 

Allen might go through 5 OC’s by the time his career is over.  Most, if not all elite QB’s go through multiple coordinators. 

Hmm that may be true.. but Brady only had 3 his entire career I do believe and that’s over 20 years.. mind you him and Manning just needed the OC to get out of the way and let them do their thing after year 5. 

[Royale with Cheese]

9 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I’m not talking politics. I’m making a clear point.  You can find stats to that favor the sides of any debate.  
 

Josh IS more turnover prone since Daboll.  This is a fact.  He’s more turnover prone under Dorsey in his 5th and 6th years in the league than he was under Daboll as rookie and 2nd year player.  A rookie and 2nd year player most people said was a turnover waiting to happen.  He was reckless and everyone knew it.  Now he’s even more reckless…..and everyone knows it.  

You can bring up all the examples that you like.  Just like stats.  There are examples of several things that aren’t true. I have one example.  Look at his career turnover per game under Daboll, including the years he was considered a raw prospect that needed a LOT of work.  Now look at his turnovers per game as a 5th and 6th year all pro.  

 

so let me me ask you this.  Since halftime of the Green Bay game last season,  do you think Josh Allen has regressed or is he the same or better QB that we saw in 2020 and 21?  

 

Your talk about Brady and Belichick.  Who else?  
 

You don’t agree that it would be beneficial to have an offensive HC, one where the QB will be using the same system and have the same play calling year after year?  The same voice to lean on.  To have someone that has proven to be good at what they do year after year.  Instead of rolling the dice with new guys and new systems that, in many cases, haven’t even called played before. 

 

I think it would be beneficial.  I wished we had that.  I just think that teams are more impatient with HC's and there will be consistent openings for the good OC's to take.

If everything goes right, then our OC's will be getting HC interviews.  We probably have to get used to it.

[Ray Finkel]

11 hours ago, KDIGGZ said:

If Daboll gets fired he won't be coming back unless it's as head coach. There were murmurs that him and McDermott weren't getting along and he was out of here even if he didn't get a head coaching job. But if both teams keep playing like they did this past weekend, it could be a possibility that both are looking for new jobs (though highly unlikely as both have earned some leeway).

Those murmurs were fact.  You are spot on.

[appoo]

This is wildly reductive.  If anything the Steelers Wk1 Game was worse than the MNF game. 

 

 

A game where the Bills were incapable of protecting Allen, he threw the ball 51 freakin times in a low scoring game, and your RB who avg 6.5 YPR only got 11 rushes. 

 

Like, lose me with Brian Daboll Master God of Football and this is why Josh Allen is struggling now

Edited September 14, 2023 by appoo

[Royale with Cheese]

3 minutes ago, PatsFanNH said:

Hmm that may be true.. but Brady only had 3 his entire career I do believe and that’s over 20 years.. mind you him and Manning just needed the OC to get out of the way and let them do their thing after year 5. 

 

I counted Charlie Weiss, Bill O'Brien, Brian Daboll and Josh McDaniels for NE....Byron Leftwich in TB.

 

Yes, I would prefer continuity.  See my post above.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Royale with Cheese

[PatsFanNH]

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I counted Charlie Weiss, Bill O'Brien, Brian Daboll and Josh McDaniels for NE....Byron Leftwich in TB.

 

Yes, I would prefer continuity.  See my post above.

Daboll was never a OC here. I forgot Weiss lol the first one I forgot lol.

 

I have a question, shouldn’t Allen be able to run the O himself after 6 years? Or at least be able to overcome some head scratching play calls? 

[Low Positive]

2 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I counted Charlie Weiss, Bill O'Brien, Brian Daboll and Josh McDaniels for NE....Byron Leftwich in TB.

 

Yes, I would prefer continuity.  See my post above.

Daboll was never OC in New England. He had various position coach positions there. 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, PatsFanNH said:

Daboll was never a OC here. I forgot Weiss lol the first one I forgot lol.

 

I have a question, shouldn’t Allen be able to run the O himself after 6 years? Or at least be able to overcome some head scratching play calls? 

He does, look at Bills record last 6 year

 

FOH w this

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, PatsFanNH said:

Daboll was never a OC here. I forgot Weiss lol the first one I forgot lol.

 

I have a question, shouldn’t Allen be able to run the O himself after 6 years? Or at least be able to overcome some head scratching play calls? 

 

I'm sure Allen runs it in some way.  I would think you would give your QB some autonomy.  

 

And yes to the second part of the question.

[Toyo321]

15 hours ago, Doc said:

Even with that 40-0 drubbing on opening night?

I hate to say it but although as much as I hate Dallas.  Dallas had probably the best Defensive front roster in the league this year and they are more than just due.

 

We will see how bad they demolish the Jets.  And I did say demolish.  Dallas is going to do this to a lot of teams this year.

 

Once again I hate them with a passion, and what happened to the Giants,  is going to happen to other teams this year too.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Toyo321

[NewEra]

1 minute ago, Beck Water said:

 

OK, let's try this.

 

Here is a chart of Josh Allen's INT (1 2 or 3) thrown, per game played (regular season or playoff), in numerical order.

Without looking it up, pick the point where Dorsey took over.

 

 

I'll hang up and listen.

 

You're making a valid point about examples and stats being able to be used to make any point, but you're using it somewhat ironically.

 

 

 

 

Ignore my question and post artwork.  I’ll ask again.  Since halftime of the Green Bay game last season,  do you think Josh Allen has regressed, improved or is he the same  QB that we saw in 2020 and 21?  

 

Josh Allen has averaged .33 turnovers per game in the playoffs under Daboll.  He had 2 turnovers in 6 games.

 

Under Dorsey, he has 4 turnovers in 2 playoff games.  2 per game….. twice as many turnovers in one third of the games.  
 

He has 21 turnovers in his last 13 games.  The worst stretch of his career.  1.6 per game.  

 

There’s a reason his bad play is trending on social media, YT and message boards.  It’s because his play has clearly regressed over the last 13 games.   This isn’t just my opinion.  This is the worlds opinion.  But link charts and find the stats that support your argument. I’ll link stats to support

mine.  
 

I’m not saying that Ken Dorsey is the reason he’s regressed.  I’m not saying he can’t turn things around under Dorsey.  My point in all of this is that he has regressed over the last 13 games……and if you don’t it see this after watching every one of those 13 games (multiple times I’m sure) than you don’t know much about QB play.  His decision making and his pocket presence have both taken a noticeable turn for the worse.  
 

But in reality, I’m sure you agree that he’s gotten worse over the last 13 games and are just compiling stats simply because the stats exist.  

21 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I think it would be beneficial.  I wished we had that.  I just think that teams are more impatient with HC's and there will be consistent openings for the good OC's to take.

If everything goes right, then our OC's will be getting HC interviews.  We probably have to get used to it.

I hear ya.  I like McD.  Idk if he’s the guy to get us a Lombardi but we could definitely do much worse.  If this year doesn’t end well, I’d give Ben Johnson (and possibly others) a chance to get in 17s ear and hopefully flip the switch. 

[GunnerBill]

13 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

OK, let's try this.

 

Here is a chart of Josh Allen's INT (1 2 or 3) thrown, per game played (regular season or playoff), in numerical order.

Without looking it up, pick the point where Dorsey took over.

 

 

I'll hang up and listen.

 

You're making a valid point about examples and stats being able to be used to make any point, but you're using it somewhat ironically.

 

 

 

I don't think that graph particularly helps your case @Beck Water. It shows Josh has had 7 multiple INT games in the 20 Dorsey has been OC. To count back the previous 7 times that he threw multiple picks is 51 games and takes you to the Pats meltdown at the start of his second season. 

 

Now I will caveat that point with I don't think all of this on Dorsey or that Dorsey is terrible. I have some concerns over him but I don't think Monday was on him. I don't think that the majority of the blame for Josh's dip since the middle of last year belongs with Dorsey either, though I do think there are schematic things that we need to look at and focus on. I do think at times he has lacked a bit of creativity and his offense is a bit bland. That said, nor is Brian Daboll a genius. I do think he is a very good OC and he got way too much stick when he was here... but this isn't as simple as Daboll = good; Dorsey = bad. There is a lot more too it and I think there is some revisionist history going on here. 

[NewEra]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't think that graph particularly helps your case @Beck Water. It shows Josh has had 7 multiple INT games in the 20 Dorsey has been OC. To count back the previous 7 times that he threw multiple picks is 51 games and takes you to the Pats meltdown at the start of his second season. 

 

Now I will caveat that point with I don't think all of this on Dorsey or that Dorsey is terrible. I have some concerns over him but I don't think Monday was on him. I don't think that the majority of the blame for Josh's dip since the middle of last year belongs with Dorsey either, though I do think there are schematic things that we need to look at and focus on. I do think at times he has lacked a bit of creativity and his offense is a bit bland. That said, nor is Brian Daboll a genius. I do think he is a very good OC and he got way too much stick when he was here... but this isn't as simple as Daboll = good; Dorsey = bad. There is a lot more too it and I think there is some revisionist history going on here. 

@Beck Water seems to be the consensus that current 17 is not the same as 17 under Daboll.  
 

That was the point you were contending with me.  I said “Right…. But let’s not act like the current Josh allen is the same josh allen we saw under Daboll”. Where you replied with “isn’t he” and posted stats. I said watch the game, it’s obvious. Then more stats.  And stats. Watch the game.  His QB play has slipped over the last 13 games.  
 

again…..I’m not saying that Dorsey is the reason, but it’s his job to figure out how to get better results.  He’s got 16ish games to do so

[PatsFanNH]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

He does, look at Bills record last 6 year

 

FOH w this

I meant it more like a question. I did not know if he did or did not do it.. I was asking by the way the OP was written. 

[appoo]

1 hour ago, PatsFanNH said:

Daboll was never a OC here. I forgot Weiss lol the first one I forgot lol.

 

I have a question, shouldn’t Allen be able to run the O himself after 6 years? Or at least be able to overcome some head scratching play calls? 

I think the Peyton Manning OC thing is pretty overstated. Not even Brady was really doing what you suggested. 

The other thing is that the Bills didn't have playcalling problem against the Jets, and like most veteran QBs, Josh has checks he can goto based on looks. But that really wasn't an issue. All of Josh's problems really came down to a handful of plays with either bad choices or poor ball placement which put them in bad spots. 

[Punching Bag]

6 hours ago, FrenchConnection said:

Tom’s not going to an assistant coach. And besides, he’s already a minority owner of another team. And Fitz makes a lot more money on Amazon than QB coaches make. What Inwould do is pay Jordan Palmer the largest QB coach contract in NFL history. But then again it’s not my money. 

 

If Jordan Palmer would become Bills QB coach he could not be Josh Allen's offseason QB coach, one in which he worked out with other QBs.

NFLPA would not allow it and surprised Coach Diabolical was allowed as much remote contact as he had.

 

Jordan Palmer has a good career now which is likely sustainable for a long time and is one that he does not need to put so many hours week after week. 

 

Joe Brady was hired to be QB coach and that is what he needs to do.  Unless this position is just a place holder as it was with a previous QB coach.

 

Josh does not have the QBs with years of experience anymore - that happens when they pay you millions and millions of dollars - but if he wanted to fund help not on PS or coaching staff I think Bills would work with him.

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

Ignore my question and post artwork.

 

Oh, FFS(2).

 

That's incredibly rude and dismissive.  I gave you one pass for the condescending and dismissive "it isn't helping you much...watch the games" topped off with a political reference, but calling a graph of data "artwork" is above and beyond.

 

As far as your question:  I don't use the word "regression".  I don't consider it meaningful in the context or meaning most people here (including your previous post) appear to use it.  I already made the point "I think Dorsey and Allen should get a bit of a pass on the games where Josh was playing with a torn UCL last season", which would be (wait for it) every game after the 2nd half of the Green Bay game, until (perhaps) the last 3 games of the season where Josh said he could pretty well return to his previous throwing motion - but that takes time to re-train.

 

I was hoping we could find a common point of reference to actually have a discussion, but I guess not. 

 

 

[NewEra]

10 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Oh, FFS(2).

 

That's incredibly rude and dismissive.  I gave you one pass for the condescending and dismissive "it isn't helping you much...watch the games" topped off with a political reference, but calling a graph of data "artwork" is above and beyond.

 

As far as your question:  I don't use the word "regression".  I don't consider it meaningful in the context or meaning most people here (including your previous post) appear to use it.  I already made the point "I think Dorsey and Allen should get a bit of a pass on the games where Josh was playing with a torn UCL last season", which would be (wait for it) every game after the 2nd half of the Green Bay game, until (perhaps) the last 3 games of the season where Josh said he could pretty well return to his previous throwing motion - but that takes time to re-train.

 

I was hoping we could find a common point of reference to actually have a discussion, but I guess not. 

 

 

This all started because you called out me and rebutted my statement that current josh isn’t 2020-21 josh.  I don’t understand why you would even waste your time rebutting that.  
 

sorry if I offended you by saying you should watch the games….. but it’s quite obvious that he has not been playing QB at the same level as he was in 20-21.  You can spout off whatever stats you want….. but it doesn’t change the fact that my statement is correct.  Current Josh is not the same.  I don’t have to list stats to be right.  No footnotes needed.  The world has eyeballs and it agrees with me.  

What’s there to discuss?  The point you’re disputing is absolutely correct.  There’s no need to have a discussion about it.  Everyone knows he’s playing worse.  

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by NewEra

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

@Beck Water seems to be the consensus that current 17 is not the same as 17 under Daboll.  
 

That was the point you were contending with me.  I said “Right…. But let’s not act like the current Josh allen is the same josh allen we saw under Daboll”. Where you replied with “isn’t he” and posted stats. I said watch the game, it’s obvious. Then more stats.  And stats. Watch the game.  His QB play has slipped over the last 13 games.  
 

again…..I’m not saying that Dorsey is the reason, but it’s his job to figure out how to get better results.  He’s got 16ish games to do so

 

I don't think Daboll/ no Daboll is the difference. - and actually in the post you are responding to above, it sounds like @GunnerBill agrees with that.  Let me quote from the post you're responding to:

"Now I will caveat that point with I don't think all of this on Dorsey or that Dorsey is terrible. I have some concerns over him but I don't think Monday was on him. I don't think that the majority of the blame for Josh's dip since the middle of last year belongs with Dorsey either......this isn't as simple as Daboll = good; Dorsey = bad. There is a lot more too it and I think there is some revisionist history going on here. "

 

That summarizes the point I am trying to make.  I think Josh has had good games where he was patient and took what the defense gave him under Dorsey, including a couple at the end of last season.  I think Josh had impatient games where he did NOT take what the defense gave him, where he forced things and played like "Sugar High Josh", in the 2021 season under Daboll.

 

I think where Josh really began to be "not the same QB" was starting from the 2021 Jacksonville game to the end of the regular 2021 season.  We don't remember because he pulled himself together and played brilliantly in the playoffs (could not have played better) to end the season, but he had a truly horrible stretch of play in November and into December - again, under Daboll.

 

[NewEra]

1 minute ago, Beck Water said:

 

I don't think Daboll/ no Daboll is the difference. - and actually in the post you are responding to above, it sounds like @GunnerBill agrees with that.  Let me quote from the post you're responding to:

"Now I will caveat that point with I don't think all of this on Dorsey or that Dorsey is terrible. I have some concerns over him but I don't think Monday was on him. I don't think that the majority of the blame for Josh's dip since the middle of last year belongs with Dorsey either......this isn't as simple as Daboll = good; Dorsey = bad. There is a lot more too it and I think there is some revisionist history going on here. "

 

That summarizes the point I am trying to make.  I think Josh has had good games where he was patient and took what the defense gave him under Dorsey, including a couple at the end of last season.  I think Josh had impatient games where he did NOT take what the defense gave him, where he forced things and played like "Sugar High Josh", in the 2021 season under Daboll.

 

I think where Josh really began to be "not the same QB" was starting from the 2021 Jacksonville game to the end of the regular 2021 season.  We don't remember because he pulled himself together and played brilliantly in the playoffs (could not have played better) to end the season, but he had a truly horrible stretch of play in November and into December - again, under Daboll.

 

I also said that I didn’t think Dorsey was the difference……

 

but it’s his job to figure it out

[colin]

2 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I don't think Daboll/ no Daboll is the difference. - and actually in the post you are responding to above, it sounds like @GunnerBill agrees with that.  Let me quote from the post you're responding to:

"Now I will caveat that point with I don't think all of this on Dorsey or that Dorsey is terrible. I have some concerns over him but I don't think Monday was on him. I don't think that the majority of the blame for Josh's dip since the middle of last year belongs with Dorsey either......this isn't as simple as Daboll = good; Dorsey = bad. There is a lot more too it and I think there is some revisionist history going on here. "

 

That summarizes the point I am trying to make.  I think Josh has had good games where he was patient and took what the defense gave him under Dorsey, including a couple at the end of last season.  I think Josh had impatient games where he did NOT take what the defense gave him, where he forced things and played like "Sugar High Josh", in the 2021 season under Daboll.

 

I think where Josh really began to be "not the same QB" was starting from the 2021 Jacksonville game to the end of the regular 2021 season.  We don't remember because he pulled himself together and played brilliantly in the playoffs (could not have played better) to end the season, but he had a truly horrible stretch of play in November and into December - again, under Daboll.

 

 

 

these daboll genius narratives aren't supported by the data, simple as that.

 

Josh is erratic, he's got to get better at that right now, it's just that simple.

[Beck Water]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't think that graph particularly helps your case @Beck Water. It shows Josh has had 7 multiple INT games in the 20 Dorsey has been OC. To count back the previous 7 times that he threw multiple picks is 51 games and takes you to the Pats meltdown at the start of his second season. 

 

Now I will caveat that point with I don't think all of this on Dorsey or that Dorsey is terrible. I have some concerns over him but I don't think Monday was on him. I don't think that the majority of the blame for Josh's dip since the middle of last year belongs with Dorsey either, though I do think there are schematic things that we need to look at and focus on. I do think at times he has lacked a bit of creativity and his offense is a bit bland. That said, nor is Brian Daboll a genius. I do think he is a very good OC and he got way too much stick when he was here... but this isn't as simple as Daboll = good; Dorsey = bad. There is a lot more too it and I think there is some revisionist history going on here. 

 

Well, I guess it depends upon how you see things.  I spent my professional life looking for patterns, and especially when it came to process development, trying to figure out where when and why things went sideways, a need not necessarily best served by setting out arbitrary intervals and counting the number of failed batches within them.  That could lead you to decide "we had more failed batches since Rodomontade took over as supervisor - 8 vs. 4" - but failing to see that the number of failed batches actually spiked up at an earlier time interval and maybe we need to look at what changed right then.

 

This is frankly where my point about it being somewhat ironic for someone to talk about manipulating data to make a point comes from.  Here's what I see when I look at this "artwork":

I see that there were some early "teething pains" with Josh, where he was turnover-prone during his rookie season and into his second season.  After his 16th game, which happened to be September 29 2019 vs. NWE (4th game of his 2nd year), he really settled down and cleaned up the interceptions - UNTIL November 7, 2021, most of the way through his 4th season - that was the Jacksonville game.  Beasley was playing on what we later learned to be cracked ribs from the previous week, our OL was atrocious against the Jags pass rush, and Josh was reckless with putting himself and the ball at risk.

 

So looking at this as a process developer, I would say something changed for the better on September 29, 2019.  We know from Josh that he had some hard discussions with Beane and with McDermott about changing how he played after that game.  Then I would say something changed again on November 7, 2021 - WHILE DABOLL WAS STILL HERE.  And I would start to look at what that might be.

 

We overlook Nov and Dec of 2021 because Josh got his act together and played so splendidly in the playoffs.  But I think in hindsight, that's where the pattern started.  And I personally think Josh may have to do an exercise where he climbs a ladder and lets himself fall backwards a few dozen times, trusting some combinations of Kincaid, Sherfield, Knox and Hardy to catch him.  A "thought exercise" might be prudent here.

 

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

16 hours ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

It's not just about adjusting to different coordinators. Josh lobbied for Dorsey to stay as the OC...

 

As @Buffalo716 said above:

"They had a great Bond.. that Brian was able to develop since Josh was 22... Brian was able to rip into him and give him criticism... Without pushback

 

What all professional football players need..  a coach to coach them

 

I don't think Allen respects Dorsey enough to be coached by him... Sure he can play under him... But he doesn't fear and respect him enough to take in coaching"

 

The respect can easily be tied to Daboll's understanding of the game and that Josh bought into and recognized that. In any part of life, when you have that mentor who is on another level and you realize that - you accept that teaching and coaching, you give the respect and it is much easier to take constructive criticism from due to that trust and respect. Once that mentor leaves, yes you learned things and are better than you were before, but are you willing to accept constructive criticism from that next mentor if they are on a level or 2 below? Personally, in my work life, I struggle with that (generally because I know more than they do LOL). There are only a handful of people in my professional life I would accept constructive criticism from, because they are levels above me...

 

Josh's work with Jordan was mechanics...This isn't mechanical.

 

Jordan Palmer in the past has talked about watching film with his QB, and in fact having film night with the draft class where they watched with Josh and some of his other professional clients.  He's also talked about putting Josh together with 'mental coaching', whatever that means.

 

I agree with you that this isn't mechanical.

 

I do understand your point about it being easier to accept hard coaching from someone you completely respect as your clear superior.

 

But Josh has talked about how much he respects and how much he's learned from Dorsey: "my career changed when he walked in the building".

 

If Josh actually can not accept constructive criticism or "hard coaching" from Dorsey and take in what he has to say...then Josh made a foolish mistake in lobbying for a man he has stated he respects and has learned from to take over as OC, and Josh is going to do him the disservice of getting his ass fired.

 

As a professional, I would have comments about your stated approach on constructive criticism, but 'not my circus not my monkeys'

Edited September 14, 2023 by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

This all started because you called out me and rebutted my statement that current josh isn’t 2020-21 josh.  I don’t understand why you would even waste your time rebutting that.  
 

sorry if I offended you by saying you should watch the games….. but it’s quite obvious that he has not been playing QB at the same level as he was in 20-21.  You can spout off whatever stats you want….. but it doesn’t change the fact that my statement is correct.  Current Josh is not the same.  I don’t have to list stats to be right.  No footnotes needed.  The world has eyeballs and it agrees with me.  

What’s there to discuss?  The point you’re disputing is absolutely correct.  There’s no need to have a discussion about it.  Everyone knows he’s playing worse.  

 

 

Actually your statement I responded to was "But let’s not act like the current Josh allen is the same josh allen we saw under Daboll"

For one thing, that does appear to imply that Dorsey is the problem.  If you clarify that you don't believe Dorsey is the problem or the Dorsey/Daboll transition per se is the problem, we disagree about less.

 

My point is that at times, the 2021 Josh we saw, is exactly the Josh we're seeing today.  That's from watching the games, but data support this and I believe the graph I constructed from data (Oh, excuse me - the "artwork I posted") illustrates this point pretty clearly.   @Royale with Cheese pointed out that in fact, Josh's worst INT year so far was actually 2021 and his fumbling was horrendous.  We overlook this because Josh played lights out in the 2021 playoffs.

My second point is that at times during 2022, the Josh we saw was the equal of 2021 Josh - calm, poised, able to take what the defense gave him and methodically move the ball down the field.  I gave specific examples of games I felt displayed this, including 2 at the end of the 2022 season.

 

It is pretty clear that Josh's play was worse after the GB game - that would be the Jets game, where his UCL got torn - so I point out that the QB performance picture is muddier and more difficult to sort from that point on, because of the injury.

 

So no, I don't agree that "the point I'm disputing is absolutely correct", but I likely won't be trying to discuss this with you further because you see nothing to discuss.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Beck Water

[NewEra]

8 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Actually your statement I responded to was "But let’s not act like the current Josh allen is the same josh allen we saw under Daboll"

For one thing, that does appear to imply that Dorsey is the problem.  If you clarify that you don't believe Dorsey is the problem or the Dorsey/Daboll transition per se is the problem, we disagree about less.

 

My point is that at times, the 2021 Josh we saw, is exactly the Josh we're seeing today.  That's from watching the games, but data support this and I believe the graph I constructed from data (Oh, excuse me - the "artwork I posted") illustrates this point pretty clearly.   @Royale with Cheese pointed out that in fact, Josh's worst INT year so far was actually 2021 and his fumbling was horrendous.  We overlook this because Josh played lights out in the 2021 playoffs.

My second point is that at times during 2022, the Josh we saw was the equal of 2021 Josh - calm, poised, able to take what the defense gave him and methodically move the ball down the field.  I gave specific examples of games I felt displayed this, including 2 at the end of the 2022 season.

 

It is pretty clear that Josh's play was worse after the GB game - that would be the Jets game, where his UCL got torn - so I point out that the QB performance picture is muddier and more difficult to sort from that point on, because of the injury.

 

So no, I don't agree that "the point I'm disputing is absolutely correct", but I likely won't be trying to discuss this with you further because you see nothing to discuss.

Ok.  Josh is still the same player.  My bad.

Edited September 14, 2023 by NewEra

[Punching Bag]

3 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Ok.  Josh is still the same player.  My bad.

 

Yes but bad in a good way.

[Reed83HOF]

46 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Jordan Palmer in the past has talked about watching film with his QB, and in fact having film night with the draft class where they watched with Josh and some of his other professional clients.  He's also talked about putting Josh together with 'mental coaching', whatever that means.

 

I agree with you that this isn't mechanical.

 

I do understand your point about it being easier to accept hard coaching from someone you completely respect as your clear superior.

 

But Josh has talked about how much he respects and how much he's learned from Dorsey: "my career changed when he walked in the building".

 

If Josh actually can not accept constructive criticism or "hard coaching" from Dorsey and take in what he has to say...then Josh made a foolish mistake in lobbying for a man he has stated he respects and has learned from to take over as OC, and Josh is going to do him the disservice of getting his ass fired.

 

As a professional, I would have comments about your stated approach on constructive criticism, but 'not my circus not my monkeys'

 

I've been busy today and haven't had a chance to hop back in here yet. 

 

Obviously this is all conjecture, part of the fun (or frustration) is trying to put pieces of a puzzle together....

 

Not that Jordan Plamer speaks for Josh, but obviously there is a closeness there, looking at who may or many not be credible or have some knowledge of a situation based on relationships with the parties is our only real avenue to try to get some insight on what's going on. As fans we also have a way of accepting or dismissing information in what we want to or not want to believe. This certainly seems to be something that is multifaceted and there is not just one root cause. 

 

For Palmer to make a comment like this, he has some level of knowledge and obviously felt compelled enough to put this tid bit out there, if any of us care to know by delving into the topic, it is up to us to try to decipher it...

 

“It’s less about Ken Dorsey & what he isn’t. It’s more about Brian Daboll. I think a few years from now we’ll all say that’s the best coach in football…

 

...

 

“What Josh benefited from with Daboll was not just the play calling but learning the game… learning the game from who Bill Belichick and a lot of other people think is one of the smarter dudes in the league at teaching the position”."

 

It's not Josh and Dorsey at all, it's giving him an elite mind to help teach him the game and to mentor him through the challenges of what teams are game planning against him as well as unlocking the understanding of the game within himself to get to that other level. When you have someone you have that level of respect for, it is easier to listen to the constructive criticism they are providing to you. 

 

I mean there is a chance that Daboll is one of those minds...

[Fan in Chicago]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't think that graph particularly helps your case @Beck Water. It shows Josh has had 7 multiple INT games in the 20 Dorsey has been OC. To count back the previous 7 times that he threw multiple picks is 51 games and takes you to the Pats meltdown at the start of his second season. 

 

 

You alluded to the fire within Allen and it bears mentioning that prior to GB game, he would continue to play well after interceptions and will the team to a win. There was a drive within him which you could see in his eyes and body language. 

So, perhaps statistically the turnovers are not significantly different . But the rest of his game is not making up for them. 

[Punching Bag]

10 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

“What Josh benefited from with Daboll was not just the play calling but learning the game… learning the game from who Bill Belichick and a lot of other people think is one of the smarter dudes in the league at teaching the position”."

 

It's not Josh and Dorsey at all, it's giving him an elite mind to help teach him the game and to mentor him through the challenges of what teams are game planning against him as well as unlocking the understanding of the game within himself to get to that other level. When you have someone you have that level of respect for, it is easier to listen to the constructive criticism they are providing to you. 

 

I mean there is a chance that Daboll is one of those minds...

 

Josh and Daboll seemed to have a connection once the initial wall was broken.  

They would call each other up with ideas.

 

One other thing which changed other than Brian Daboll leaving - Davis Webb left and he was more an offense assistant that PS QB.

From 2019 to 2012 he was Daboll's assistant even running the practice in Florida.

He left when  Brian Daboll and he went to Giants.

[Beck Water]

9 hours ago, Reed83HOF said:

There certainly was a rift between him and McD and there were certainly times the offense stalled during his time as OC, I'm certainly not disagreeing with any of that, what I do see different is the mentor-mentee relationship that him and Allen had is absent and that allows those bad traits to start to surface again. Allen certainly had those bad traits during his time with Daboll as well, but Josh did appear to learn from it and limit those opportunities.

 

I agree with all this - but it wasn't IMO a binary process.  It's not that Josh never displayed those bad traits when Daboll was here - because they surfaced and resurfaced.  It may be true that perhaps that he was more able to accept hard coaching and that he was able one way or the other to be coaxed out of the bad traits and into disciplined play, better.  Or, maybe he got positive reinforcement to be great from Daboll instead of hard coaching, IDK, I just heard about a "see how great you can be" video.  Or, maybe he got both.

 

Frankly, it wasn't that intrinsically Josh recognized a great football mind he needed to bond with and listen to right off the bat.  Josh told a story about Daboll screaming in his helmet his rookie year after he ignored the play call and took a throw to the corner of the EZ that got picked.  He said Daboll screamed until he was read in the face, then calmed down and walked away, then thought about it and came back and screamed some more.  Josh needed to "bottom out" and have a terrible, horrible, no good very bad loss to NE 4 games into his 2nd season before he had some hard discussions with Beane and McDermott and made a decision to change his ways.

 

Maybe this game will serve as a "bottoming out" to bring Josh back to the same realization.  We fans can hope.

[Reed83HOF]

5 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I agree with all this - but it wasn't IMO a binary process.  It's not that Josh never displayed those bad traits when Daboll was here - because they surfaced and resurfaced.  It may be true that perhaps that he was more able to accept hard coaching and that he was able one way or the other to be coaxed out of the bad traits and into disciplined play, better.  Or, maybe he got positive reinforcement to be great from Daboll instead of hard coaching, IDK, I just heard about a "see how great you can be" video.  Or, maybe he got both.

 

Frankly, it wasn't that intrinsically Josh recognized a great football mind he needed to bond with and listen to right off the bat.  Josh told a story about Daboll screaming in his helmet his rookie year after he ignored the play call and took a throw to the corner of the EZ that got picked.  He said Daboll screamed until he was read in the face, then calmed down and walked away, then thought about it and came back and screamed some more.  Josh needed to "bottom out" and have a terrible, horrible, no good very bad loss to NE 4 games into his 2nd season before he had some hard discussions with Beane and McDermott and made a decision to change his ways.

 

Maybe this game will serve as a "bottoming out" to bring Josh back to the same realization.  We fans can hope.

I agree with all of this...

 

 

[Beck Water]

32 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

It's not Josh and Dorsey at all, it's giving him an elite mind to help teach him the game and to mentor him through the challenges of what teams are game planning against him as well as unlocking the understanding of the game within himself to get to that other level. When you have someone you have that level of respect for, it is easier to listen to the constructive criticism they are providing to you. 

 

I mean there is a chance that Daboll is one of those minds...

 

There is a chance, indeed.

 

 But again...at this point, we're not talking about honing an elite top-level understanding.  We're talking about making bonehead decisions that the man who "changed my career when he walked into the building" (Josh's words about Dorsey) should be able to talk to Josh and be heard about.

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Beck Water