Boogie traded to Giants

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, JerseyBills said:

He played a ton with the 1s this pre season,  guess they didn't like his progress and prefer Kingsley 

 

I actually thought he had a pretty solid presason too.  So maybe it was they already knew they were going to try and trade him given the log jam at DL in general and were getting him more reps to boost trade interest.

[78thealltimegreat]

Brandon’s strengths are his ability to maneuver around the cap so we always have a little room to operate in free agency. 

His weakness he falls in love with “athletic” tweener type players from the southeastern conference and ACC far too much.

Almost to the point of him having a regional scouting bias.  
It’s no wonder his best first round pick in years Mr Kincaid came from the PAC 12 

Edited August 29, 2023 by 78thealltimegreat

[4merper4mer]

1 minute ago, uticaclub said:

GMs serve their coaches. Washington & Ragland fit the defense Rex wanted to build. Ragland also got hurt his rookie year.

Ragland was a good linebacker for football as played in 1926.  Rex picked him.  Blaming Whaley is unfair.  Blaming Ragland’s injury for anything whatsoever is an absolute joke.  

[BuffaloBillyG]

Interesting to see they view Boogie as an...OLB?

[somnus00]

2 hours ago, SWATeam said:

LOL, the Jets are certainly the pinnacle of drafting!  🤣🤣🤣

Well, they did take Sam Darnold over Josh Allen. The damn Jets caught Beane sleeping on that one.

[balln]

1 minute ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Brandon’s strengths are his ability to maneuver around the cap so we always have a little room to operate in free agency. 

His weakness he falls in love with “athletic” tweener type players from the southeastern conference and ACC far too much.

Almost to the point of him having a regional scouting bias.  
It’s no wonder his best first round pick in years Mr Kincaid came from the PAC 12 

Zack moss played at Utah. PAC 12 sucks 

[DrDawkinstein]

1 hour ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

 

My tinfoil hat theory:

 

He was working on the dl, hush-hush, behind the curtain with Beane.

 

 

2 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

I never mentioned Beane.  You did.

 

The types of players you mentioned…..Dawkins and Milano…..I added Tre……are clearly McDermott types.  Can you mention any other per-McDermott player that fits their mold?

 

This entire line of discussion spawned off the post quoted above.

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

It’s not all Josh Allen, but it’s mostly Josh Allen… don’t think there another QB in the league that elevates their team more than he does. 
 

Never said Beane was a bad GM… he’s also not great and bordering on above average IMO. 

 

Allen isn't even #1 for his teams percentage of production.  Its Mahomes by a lot.

 

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/most-qb-total-offense-2022

 

It's also a fair statement to make that Patrick Mahomes is everything to the Chiefs offense too.

[Pokebball]

Was Basham a hit or a miss in the draft? Sticking with a miss longer than you should is compounding a mistake, if you can even call a draft pick a mistake. I'd say the drafting is the easy part. The development of these guys and the subsequent roster management is the harder part IMO. That's when the sausage gets made.

 

I don't know how anyone can be too critical of Beane/McDermott, based only on the results while they've been here. Getting Buffalo to 12-13 wins is, quite honestly, remarkable. How fortunate are we to be whining about 12 win seasons? It means we've had decent play, at a minimum, at every position IMO.

 

To get over the next hill, requires some player management of some of these kids that have brought us to this place. It's hard. It feels unloyal, right?

 

Many of you have read the book, or heard this said before. The most common reason a person, or in this case a team, can't get from "good" to "great" is the fact that you're good. Good is hard to let go of, it's harder to change. But you have to give up good to get to great.

 

I continue to trust Beane & McDermott.

 

[glazeduck]

19 minutes ago, balln said:

Yea well they fall in love too ***** much these lunch pail 4th and 5th year senior ,good  attitude , hard working, senior bowl

darlings -  but athletically inferior / tweeners. None of these guys they pick have a position ! Basham was neither a DT or DE in the nfl ? 

It's exactly this. Culture fit, lack of rap sheet, leadership qualities, intelligence, intangibles are all important parts of the process, but they very VERY rarely elevate a below-average athlete to being more than just an average player, at best. Not at all to defend or excuse his actions, but Jefferey Simmons vs. Ed Oliver is another example. Obviously Ed has turned out better than the Boogie situation thus far -- and again, Simmons is a POS -- but he's unequivocally the better and more impactful player. When the goal is to find the best football players, sometimes you need to take chances on talent...

Edited August 29, 2023 by glazeduck

[DrDawkinstein]

Just now, ScottLaw said:

Yea agree.. even so taking a RB like Cook in the 2nd is wasted value IMO.

 

2nd round is the SWEET spot for RB. Cant waste a 1st round on them, but the good ones are gone by the 3rd (unless you strike oil)

 

Long line of 2nd round greats going back to Thurman Thomas.

 

It would seem like much better value had we not wasted 2 3rds on other RBs.

[4merper4mer]

1 minute ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

 

This entire line of discussion spawned off the post quoted above.

It doesn’t have to be either.  McDermott could have been very aware before his departure.

[dpberr]

Basham is a very strong man but with s-l-o-w feet, and limited quickness.   Offensive linemen can keep strong, but plodding defensive linemen literally at arm's length from their quarterback most of the time.  I'd bet that he'd come in last in the lateral ladder drill of all the defensive linemen on the roster.  

 

That was the big negative in his draft profile, and remains as a professional player. 

 

 

[ColoradoBills]

17 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

This is your real take? That the HCs do the drafting with no input from the GM or scouts?

 

Or is the reality that both the HC and GM work together to get the best talent that will also fit schemes? Otherwise you end up with a 1st round pick of a CB who can only play Man in a Zone-heavy system.

 

The 2017 draft was Whaley and McD. Not McD and Beane from behind a curtain in the Panthers draft room where he was currently employed.

 

All this speculation was started with articles like this.  Then after the draft when Beane came aboard it started again.

I remember it well.

https://www.espn.com/blog/carolina-panthers/post/_/id/25289/carolina-panthers-2017-draft-picks-analysis-for-every-selection

 

Raiding the cupboard: Former Panthers defensive coordinator Sean McDermott, now the head coach of the Buffalo Bills, wasn’t here when Carolina set its draft board. But it certainly felt like it. The Bills selected East Carolina wide receiver Zay Jones three picks ahead of the Panthers at the top of the second round, then traded to move one spot ahead of the Panthers at the end of the second to take Temple guard Dion Dawkins. Both were on Carolina’s draft board and potential targets in this round. It could make the conversation fun before these teams meet in Week 2 at Carolina.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

Just now, dpberr said:

Basham is a very strong man but with s-l-o-w feet, and limited quickness.   Offensive linemen can keep strong, but plodding defensive linemen literally at arm's length from their quarterback most of the time.  I'd bet that he'd come in last in the lateral ladder drill of all the defensive linemen on the roster.  

 

That was the big negative in his draft profile, and remains as a professional player. 

 

 

Not disagreeing with you, but I gotta give him credit for hustling. I think he really has a high motor (maybe because he has to), and maybe that makes up a bit for lack of quickness and speed.

 

For example, I remember on that long TD run in the Steelers game a few weeks ago, Basham never quit on that play and tried to chase down Warren from the back side, and actually got relatively close. 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Allen isn't even #1 for his teams percentage of production.  Its Mahomes by a lot.

 

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/most-qb-total-offens

5 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Allen isn't even #1 for his teams percentage of production.  Its Mahomes by a lot.

 

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/most-qb-total-offense-2022

 

It's also a fair statement to make that Patrick Mahomes is everything to the Chiefs offense too.

e-2022

 

It's also a fair statement to make that Patrick Mahomes is everything to the Chiefs offense too.

Allen and Mahomes are basically tied in terms of production of yards, and Allen is responsible for higher %of TDs so I would say Allen is more responsible. It's certainly not Mahomes by a lot

[BillsVet]

15 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

No.

 

The point was about timing.  I was responding to a post about other teams catching up while the Bills' drafts have floundered.  Beane absolutely crapped the bed with the 2022 draft, and the jury is still out on the 2021 draft.  In the meantime, AFC competitors like the Chiefs and Jets have been nailing their drafts.  And now the bill on Allen's deal is coming due.  Yes all GMs have whiffs.  But Beane has picked a bad time to screw up his drafts, to say nothing about his numerous pro personnel misses.

 

I will always consider, in the debate about Beane's drafting prowess, how weighted that board being to defense has affected personnel decisions.  Not a complete defense, just a consideration.  Going back to 2021, yes they were older at DE and guys like Addison and Hughes weren't going to remain long.  I always understood taking Rousseau and he's turned into a solid performer.  But Basham in round 2?  An older base end with limited pass-rush ability? 

 

We'll never know what went into that decision, but it didn't make sense then and makes a lot less now.  

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

6 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Allen isn't even #1 for his teams percentage of production.  Its Mahomes by a lot.

 

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/most-qb-total-offense-2022

 

It's also a fair statement to make that Patrick Mahomes is everything to the Chiefs offense too.

 

Your link is total yardage though not %. 

 

Mahomes was 77.1% of the Chiefs total yards.

Allen was 76.8% of the Bills total yards. 

 

IMO if you replace Mahomes/Allen with a league average QB the Bills offense would suffer a lot more. I could see the Chiefs offense being around 10th best while Bills would be bottom 10. 

[BarleyNY]

26 minutes ago, 1997WS6 said:

For a moment ponder what the Bills would look like and what the prevailing opinion of McDermott and Beane would be had they selected Josh Rosen in that draft. Like nearly everyone wanted them to.

 

There is information that teams are privy to that regular fans are not. I think just about anyone would've taken Allen over Rosen if they'd been informed of the things we've heard about Rosen since he was drafted. NFL GMs had that info. As for me, I thought all four QB prospects at the top of that draft had question marks as well as upside - except Darnold. I didn't see any reason to think he had a chance to be good. But I did expect Rosen to be the choice when it got to the Bills because he seemed the safer pick, albeit one with limited upside. I didn't mind them going for the high risk - high upside pick, but I did think Allen was a long shot to hit.

[Royale with Cheese]

7 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Allen and Mahomes are basically tied in terms of production of yards, and Allen is responsible for higher %of TDs so I would say Allen is more responsible. It's certainly not Mahomes by a lot

 

That's a fair statement.

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

Your link is total yardage though not %. 

 

Mahomes was 77.1% of the Chiefs total yards.

Allen was 76.8% of the Bills total yards. 

 

IMO if you replace Mahomes/Allen with a league average QB the Bills offense would suffer a lot more. I could see the Chiefs offense being around 10th best while Bills would be bottom 10. 

Correct

[MasterStrategist]

18 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Interesting to see they view Boogie as an...OLB?

I feel like he's a tweener type, OLB/end in a 3-4 scheme.

 

He's going to be asked to go straight ahead, IMO...he just doesn't have the lateral agilty/quickness to be a dropping in coverage. 

 

But he might turn out OK, in that role.  Goof luck to him, pretty sure Shoen was very high on him (recalling post draft interviews/limited videos of draftroom excitement)

[zevo]

Any word on the return?

[Royale with Cheese]

6 minutes ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

Your link is total yardage though not %. 

 

Mahomes was 77.1% of the Chiefs total yards.

Allen was 76.8% of the Bills total yards. 

 

IMO if you replace Mahomes/Allen with a league average QB the Bills offense would suffer a lot more. I could see the Chiefs offense being around 10th best while Bills would be bottom 10. 

 

I'm sorry, I don't believe the Chiefs offense would be in the top 10 without Mahomes.  

 

The Bills wouldn't be bottom 10.  They were ranked #22 with Tyrod Taylor at QB and Rick Dennison as OC and very little offensive talent.  This team isn't worst than 2017.

[Mango]

Outside of the Beane stuff I think that Basham was a versatile player who started to come into his own as the season progressed last year. I think I would have rolled the dice on Basham than AJE. He definitely was not living up to his draft status, but he seemed to start contributing. 

I wish him the best, but if the Giants get good production out of him and Hodgins I will be salty. So to that extent, a small part of me hopes he doesn't work out for them. 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Mango

[GoBills808]

8 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

That's a fair statement.

Those are the only kind I make

[balln]

Basham in two years has a total of 5 TFL and 4.5 sacks. 2 years. Has like 37 tackles total. That’s solo + assisted. He sucks! Stop with the “he’s really coming along!” Crap

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I'm sorry, I don't believe the Chiefs offense would be in the top 10 without Mahomes.  

 

The Bills wouldn't be bottom 10.  They were ranked #22 with Tyrod Taylor at QB and Rick Dennison as OC and very little offensive talent.  This team isn't worst than 2017.

 

The Chiefs have the coaching capable of bolstering their Offense and scheming them into over-performing.

 

Not so much with the Bills. Not sure about bottom 10, but I'd say definitely bottom half.

[Roundybout]

2 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

They absolutely would with a Kyle Allen at QB.

We wouldn’t have Kyle Allen, we would, at worst, have someone like Carr. 

[LABILLBACKER]

3 minutes ago, Mango said:

Outside of the Beane stuff I think that Basham was a versatile player who started to come into his own as the season progressed last year. I think I would have rolled the dice on Basham than AJE. 

I wish him the best, but if the Giants get good production out of him and Hodgins I will be salty. So to that extent, a small part of me hopes he doesn't work out for them. 

Basham was too small to be a DT and too slow to be a pass rusher. It was just a good ole fashioned bad pick. Kinda like Elam.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

2 minutes ago, balln said:

Basham in two years has a total of 5 TFL and 4.5 sacks. 2 years. Has like 37 tackles total. That’s solo + assisted. He sucks! Stop with the “he’s really coming along!” Crap

to your point, I guess the market spoke on that, and all we got was a pick swap for him. 

[Ralonzo]

3 hours ago, No_Matter_What said:

My guess is 6th, hoping for 5th. And I guess he could be worth 5th given his abilities/contract, so not that unrealistic.

 

I'd hope for a 5th for Boogie and a 7th since between him and AJE, a) Boogie played better in preseason, and b) he has an additional year of team control.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Ralonzo

[Low Positive]

3 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

What? 

The argument was that the Bills would be a bottom-10 offense with an "average NFL QB." I think that Carr is a good stand-in for "average NFL QB."

[Roundybout]

6 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

What? 

Aren’t you getting at if we didn’t have Allen, we would be 0-17?
 

If we didn’t have Josh Allen, we would most likely have another quarterback like Carr. We wouldn’t be starting Kyle Allen. We would be about 9-8.

[The Jokeman]

13 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

They absolutely would with a Kyle Allen at QB.

Because Kyle isn't a starting QB. 

[LABILLBACKER]

22 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

That's a fair statement.

It's just so frustrating over the years to see the organization ask so much from Josh while these defensive picks seem to fail.

[Airseven]

2 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

The argument was that the Bills would be a bottom-10 offense with an "average NFL QB."

 

Who disagrees? The offense is Diggs...hopefully this Kincaid/Knox thing works out...and not much else. WRs and RBs are the definition of average paired with a shakey OL.

[K-9]

3 hours ago, thenorthremembers said:

There is one HR a GM can hit..one.   And thats drafting a franchise QB.  He hit the HR already. 

This is really the simple reality of drafting. Unless you have the difference maker at the most important position in sports, it’s gonna be a struggle. There are HOFers who’ve never sniffed a ring because they languished on teams without a QB to get them there. 
 

Drafting JA is one thing, but I give Beane more credit for maneuvering from pick 22 to pick 7 in order to get him, especially because he didn’t give up any future first round picks to do so. That took some doing.

[Pokebball]

28 minutes ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

Your link is total yardage though not %. 

 

Mahomes was 77.1% of the Chiefs total yards.

Allen was 76.8% of the Bills total yards. 

 

IMO if you replace Mahomes/Allen with a league average QB the Bills offense would suffer a lot more. I could see the Chiefs offense being around 10th best while Bills would be bottom 10. 

This has been proven when either has been on the sidelines with injuries. I guess one could argue who the QB2 was, but I think it speaks more to the rest of the offense on the field.

[Royale with Cheese]

22 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

The Chiefs have the coaching capable of bolstering their Offense and scheming them into over-performing.

 

Not so much with the Bills. Not sure about bottom 10, but I'd say definitely bottom half.

 

They wouldn't be as good for sure.  They're top 3 with Allen.  They're 16-22 without him with an average QB.  They're 12-15 with an above average QB.

 

As good as I think Reid is, it took a supreme talent in Mahomes before he won.  

Edited August 29, 2023 by Royale with Cheese