Starting CB2...

[eball]

...so, I know a lot of folks are ready with the pitchforks for Beane if Elam doesn't win the CB2 job, and certainly that is a disappointing result given his draft status...but if Benford wins the job because he is a player who was severely under-drafted but is actually very good, and the Bills still have a guy like Elam (who has talent) for depth, is it really a problem?

 

[Buffalo716]

2 minutes ago, eball said:

...so, I know a lot of folks are ready with the pitchforks for Beane if Elam doesn't win the CB2 job, and certainly that is a disappointing result given his draft status...but if Benford wins the job because he is a player who was severely under-drafted but is actually very good, and the Bills still have a guy like Elam (who has talent) for depth, is it really a problem?

 

Long answer, no.. especially of they keep elam for his contract

 

Benford was obviously under drafted because Villanova..  he's like the 5th player drafted from there in 20 years

 

Even if he was at University at Buffalo he probably would have been a top 4 rounder 

Edited August 24, 2023 by Buffalo716

[NewEra]

It’s not a problem as long as CB2 isn’t a problem.  

[Augie]

2 minutes ago, eball said:

...so, I know a lot of folks are ready with the pitchforks for Beane if Elam doesn't win the CB2 job, and certainly that is a disappointing result given his draft status...but if Benford wins the job because he is a player who was severely under-drafted but is actually very good, and the Bills still have a guy like Elam (who has talent) for depth, is it really a problem?

 

 

The bold will be the key. Did the Cheaters* ever regret who they MIGHT have drafted in the 6th round instead of Brady? (I bet some did at the time!)

[Warcodered]

Except isn't it Dane whose in the lead again somehow?

[Airseven]

Jackson is CB2. Still.

[Augie]

2 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

Except isn't it Dane whose in the lead again somehow?

 

We either have terrific depth, or Tre still isn’t Tre and we are completely DOOMED! 

 

I’ll wait to decide. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

As with all things it depends. If you are just talking play on the field then no it doesn’t matter much. If either are capable solid #2 CBs(assuming White is back to form) then the defense will be fine. However if you are talking about cap management, a #1 draft pick that is sitting on the sidelines is a massive waste of cap dollars that could have been allocated elsewhere.

[Success]

I remember people were saying similar things about Edmunds that they are saying about Elam now.

 

Both were really young guys when they came into the league. Elam is only 22 this year.  I have no worries about him - he made some great plays last year & you could see the potential. If he doesn't get the starting job, it doesn't mean he's not going to be a good or even great one for us down the line.

 

[FireChans]

29 minutes ago, eball said:

...so, I know a lot of folks are ready with the pitchforks for Beane if Elam doesn't win the CB2 job, and certainly that is a disappointing result given his draft status...but if Benford wins the job because he is a player who was severely under-drafted but is actually very good, and the Bills still have a guy like Elam (who has talent) for depth, is it really a problem?

 

Dane Jackson is going to win the job. It is a problem that Elam can't beat out two super late round drafted players, neither of which are that good.

 

We may as well have drafted a different position in the first round of 2022 and kept Levi Wallace around.

[ngbills]

Its Tre, Jackson, Johnson followed by Elam. Benford. 

[wppete]

1 minute ago, ngbills said:

Its Tre, Jackson, Johnson followed by Elam. Benford. 

Solid 5 CBs. One of the strongest groups on the team. 

[GunnerBill]

I don't care which of the 3 wins the job if they then perform. But it is legit to say that a 1st rounder who can't beat out a former 7th rounder and a 6th rounder from his own class by year 2 is a bust of some description. 

 

And I hope if Benford or Jackson win it they have a plan that still involves Elam vs Tyreek

[FireChans]

11 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I don't care which of the 3 wins the job if they then perform. But it is legit to say that a 1st rounder who can't beat out a former 7th rounder and a 6th rounder from his own class by year 2 is a bust of some description. 

 

And I hope if Benford or Jackson win it they have a plan that still involves Elam vs Tyreek

I would add that this regime has been GREAT at getting "solid" play out of the CB2 position, largely due to Tre's skill, and our S duo backing them up. Levi, Dane, Benford are all examples of guys who are not that physically gifted but have able to perform well in spots due to our coaching and scheme.

 

If Elam with his physical gifts can't muster up a level of play consistently superior to that, it's a large disappointment and I think McD and Beane would agree.

[drummernut74]

Put the playbook on the plane 

[eball]

26 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I don't care which of the 3 wins the job if they then perform. But it is legit to say that a 1st rounder who can't beat out a former 7th rounder and a 6th rounder from his own class by year 2 is a bust of some description. 

 

And I hope if Benford or Jackson win it they have a plan that still involves Elam vs Tyreek

 

Draft analysis is wrong so often I don’t know if I agree once you get past the first 10-15 selections in the 1st round…but I understand your point.

 

[HappyDays]

Elam is trending towards bust status. He is the only 1st round pick under this regime to not be a full time starter by his 2nd season. Not too late to turn it around but the clock is ticking. If he is a bust it sucks but it happens to every team. Chiefs, Bengals, Eagles, 49ers, all had 1st round busts within the last few years. We've been spoiled by the fact that each of our 1st round picks since McDermott took over have become at least capable starters. This was bound to happen eventually.

[EmotionallyUnstable]

I have two thoughts on this:

 

1) Is this a GOOD thing that our depth a CB is so strong, or a BAD thing that we can’t even figure out who CB2 should be…

 

2) If it is the former, then you have to seriously wonder if moving on from Tre White is in play next season. 

[oldmanfan]

2 hours ago, eball said:

...so, I know a lot of folks are ready with the pitchforks for Beane if Elam doesn't win the CB2 job, and certainly that is a disappointing result given his draft status...but if Benford wins the job because he is a player who was severely under-drafted but is actually very good, and the Bills still have a guy like Elam (who has talent) for depth, is it really a problem?

 

No it is not.  Tre is Tre, Taron is Taron, and then we have 3 capable guys as well.  Most teams would salivate over having that kind of depth.

[Coach Tuesday]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

Elam is trending towards bust status. He is the only 1st round pick under this regime to not be a full time starter by his 2nd season. Not too late to turn it around but the clock is ticking. If he is a bust it sucks but it happens to every team. Chiefs, Bengals, Eagles, 49ers, all had 1st round busts within the last few years. We've been spoiled by the fact that each of our 1st round picks since McDermott took over have become at least capable starters. This was bound to happen eventually.

It may have been bound to happen but the timing of a completely crap draft couldn’t have been worse - the entire 2022 draft is looking like a throwaway.  Benford and maybe Cook can partially salvage it, but considering what the Chiefs pulled from that draft class (and the Jets who took 2 likely All Pros in Round 1 alone), the Bills lost a major opportunity to capitalize on the end of Allen’s cheap window.

[anguskeenan]

25 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

I have two thoughts on this:

 

1) Is this a GOOD thing that our depth a CB is so strong, or a BAD thing that we can’t even figure out who CB2 should be…

 

2) If it is the former, then you have to seriously wonder if moving on from Tre White is in play next season. 

I think it’s a good thing. He has all the lockdown physical tools and needs to learn to work within zone which was never his strength. In the meantime you have two solid zone corners holding it down, whether Jackson or Benford, and if there’s anything McD and Butler can do well it’s develop DBs.

 

I could only call it a bust if he doesn’t work out by the end of year 3 when you’re going into needing to decide on 5th year option. They’re barely paying 3 guy’s anything to be solid options opposite of Tre. 
 

And maybe in addition to a a rotation at CB2, if we’re that good at the position, rotate Tre out very seldomly to prolong that career. I know that will bring the pitchforks but it makes sense long-term. Elam has shown better run defense/tackling over college and tackling is a Tre deficiency. So, obvious run situations and still, very seldomly.

Edited August 25, 2023 by anguskeenan

[FireChans]

25 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

I have two thoughts on this:

 

1) Is this a GOOD thing that our depth a CB is so strong, or a BAD thing that we can’t even figure out who CB2 should be…

 

2) If it is the former, then you have to seriously wonder if moving on from Tre White is in play next season. 

It's the latter.

 

It is one thing if Benford/Jackson were playing like All-Pros or even high end starters. Unfortunately, they (and Elam) are all in that "serviceable" bucket.

 

Levi Wallace was serviceable. We got rid of him and drafted Elam, which was a clear signal that the Bills wanted to upgrade at the CB2 position. Strategically, it made a lot of sense, a cheap, cost-controlled first rounder to pair until Tre White's contract was over or we moved on.

 

In an ideal world, Elam would have taken the starting job last year (he had a perfect opportunity with only Dane above him on the depth chart), and he failed to do so.   Even worse, now with a year of NFL experience, he can't separate from lesser players physically.

 

Now, all that being said, there's a non-zero chance Tre White is on the chopping block after 2023 regardless if he looks like the ghost he did last year. Hopefully, he shakes off the cobwebs and returns to form.

9 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

It may have been bound to happen but the timing of a completely crap draft couldn’t have been worse - the entire 2022 draft is looking like a throwaway.  Benford and maybe Cook can partially salvage it, but considering what the Chiefs pulled from that draft class (and the Jets who took 2 likely All Pros in Round 1 alone), the Bills lost a major opportunity to capitalize on the end of Allen’s cheap window.

It gave me 2016 vibes. Sometimes you don't need to wait three years to realize the whole group wasn't up to snuff.

 

If Benford and Cook can also see PT, it will soften the blow, but agreed entirely.

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

Elam is trending towards bust status. He is the only 1st round pick under this regime to not be a full time starter by his 2nd season. Not too late to turn it around but the clock is ticking. If he is a bust it sucks but it happens to every team. Chiefs, Bengals, Eagles, 49ers, all had 1st round busts within the last few years. We've been spoiled by the fact that each of our 1st round picks since McDermott took over have become at least capable starters. This was bound to happen eventually.

I will be surprised if Elam is a Bill in 2024.

[Billl]

4 hours ago, eball said:

...so, I know a lot of folks are ready with the pitchforks for Beane if Elam doesn't win the CB2 job, and certainly that is a disappointing result given his draft status...but if Benford wins the job because he is a player who was severely under-drafted but is actually very good, and the Bills still have a guy like Elam (who has talent) for depth, is it really a problem?

 

He didn’t get beat out by some late round pick who exploded onto the scene.  On Sunday, he looked like they pulled someone out of the stands and handed him a helmet.  He was bad bad.

 

On his first drive, the last drive of the first half, he gave up three completions.  Then he got flagged for PI in the end zone.  Then he gave up another completion for a TD.  Then, on the first play in the second half, the WR barely pushes him blocking on a running play and he just falls over backwards ass over teakettle like he got run over by a truck.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Billl

[Nephilim17]

Just a wild guess and hope, but maybe Sean liked a lot of how Elam plays but maybe there's one aspect he wants Elam to clean up (handsiness?) and this is a short-term message. Again, just a hope. To only have Cook start from the entire 2022 class would be horrible.

[ToGoGo]

Elam seems dumb and immature to me compared to a typical McBeane era Bills player? 
 

Anyone else get that vibe from him? Florida thing? 

[Augie]

We are one bad hammy or sprained ankle away from the next guy. If that is a close decision that is not a terrible situation, because you may need the next guy on the next play. 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

Dane Jackson is the clear winner of CB2. 

[Dr.Sack]

My problem is we need to play more aggressive on defense. The way you can do that is take more chances and blitz more, or play more man. Given the fact McDermott seems intent on repeating the zone heavy scheme I don’t see a far departure in defensive philosophy from Frazier happening.
 

Elam can play press man better than Benford or Dane. Just last week we all saw Poyer take a bad angle and get beat to the edge. So while the safeties are getting older and slower, we seem intent on playing a soft shell defense. That can actually be worse than playing press with Elam. McDermott should rethink his defensive strategy and personnel for 2023.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Dr.Sack

[stinky finger]

4 hours ago, eball said:

...so, I know a lot of folks are ready with the pitchforks for Beane if Elam doesn't win the CB2 job, and certainly that is a disappointing result given his draft status...but if Benford wins the job because he is a player who was severely under-drafted but is actually very good, and the Bills still have a guy like Elam (who has talent) for depth, is it really a problem?

 

 

Kind of like this

 

Elam = Lance

Benford = Purdy

[Dr.Sack]

2 minutes ago, stinky finger said:

 

Kind of like this

 

Elam = Lance

Benford = Purdy

Except Elam > Benford in man coverage. You don’t play the Fins, Chiefs or Bengals with a soft cover 2 zone. You press man them and jam them right on the snap. Elam is being misused in a conservative bend but don’t break scheme. Watch Poyer and Hyde continue to be a step too slow and the zone defense suddenly has gaping holes, especially considering Edmunds is no longer shutting down the middle further stressing the safeties. 

[stinky finger]

1 minute ago, Dr.Sack said:

Except Elam > Benford in man coverage. You don’t play the Fins, Chiefs or Bengals with a soft cover 2 zone. You press man them and jam them right on the snap. Elam is being misused in a conservative bend but don’t break scheme. Watch Poyer and Hyde continue to be a step too slow and the zone defense suddenly has gaping holes, especially considering Edmunds is no longer shutting down the middle further stressing the safeties. 

 

Agree

 

I was merely drawing a comparison to the OPs premise.

[RyanC883]

he was a puzzling pick to start with.  A press player for a zone D.  Typical of Bean targeting a position and ending up with suboptimal value in a round (ex Basham).  

 

I also agree with above posters who feel we should play a more aggressive D, and that would fit Elam’s skillset. 

Edited August 25, 2023 by RyanC883

[BigAl2526]

If Benford is as good as he seems to be, I think the Bills are fine at CB.  IIn theory, you want a first round draft pick to be on the field, but in the grand scheme of things, this is a tiny problem for the Bills compared with a couple other issues the Bills are dealing with.

[Orlando Tim]

My confusion on Elam is that maybe he simply needs to learn by fire, and Jackson is not good but simply average. I definitely want Elam on field as much as possible and let's find out if he is worth the pick. 

[BarleyNY]

4 hours ago, Airseven said:

Jackson is CB2. Still.

And that’s the rub. The Bills have tried to improve on Jackson, but it hasn’t worked out yet. 

[Airseven]

1 minute ago, Orlando Tim said:

My confusion on Elam is that maybe he simply needs to learn by fire, and Jackson is not good but simply average. I definitely want Elam on field as much as possible and let's find out if he is worth the pick. 

Learning by fire isn’t worth the downside. He doesn’t grasp zone and he grabs at wideouts to keep up. He was handsy in college and now he’s stuck in an unnatural assignment. 
 

It should be reiterated Beane traded UP for Elam.

5 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

And that’s the rub. The Bills have tried to improve on Jackson, but it hasn’t worked out yet. 

What rub? Is that a compliment?

[BarleyNY]

23 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

he was a puzzling pick to start with.  A press player for a zone D.  Typical of Bean targeting a position and ending up with suboptimal value in a round (ex Basham).  

 

I also agree with above posters who feel we should play a more aggressive D, and that would fit Elam’s skillset. 

 

The Bills put themselves into a position where they had to take a CB. No obvious answer at CB2 and Tre was injured. Then KC jumped us for McDuffie - and we took our shot on Elam. 

Edited August 25, 2023 by BarleyNY

[HappyCat]

What - -  Me Worry?  We have a TALENTED group of CB's and that is wonderful.  Who cares who starts

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, ToGoGo said:

Elam seems dumb and immature to me compared to a typical McBeane era Bills player? 
 

Anyone else get that vibe from him? Florida thing? 

 

No, I get the opposite vibe. I think he wants it so bad he is trying too hard and thinking too much. You can't think in football, you just have to play. I know he has been working crazy hard but he looked worse against the Steelers than I've ever seen him. To me that means it is all in his head.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

12 hours ago, eball said:

...so, I know a lot of folks are ready with the pitchforks for Beane if Elam doesn't win the CB2 job, and certainly that is a disappointing result given his draft status...but if Benford wins the job because he is a player who was severely under-drafted but is actually very good, and the Bills still have a guy like Elam (who has talent) for depth, is it really a problem?

 

no problem… lots of teams use the first pick to obtain starters they hope have a shot at being excellent.

 

it makes sense to outsmart the others by going depth in the first round and finding staters late in the draft