Joe Marino Breaks Down Pressures on Allen, blames quite a bit on pocket management

[Thurman#1]

Joe Marino did a play-by-play breakdown of the pressure on Josh and found that a lot of it was on Josh himself. Backing up into rushers who had been directed too deep around him without any pressure forcing that backup. Leaving clean pockets. And so on.

 

 

It's in the first ten minutes.

 

Here's an example of one play that was not Allen's fault according to Joe:  "#4 you had a completion to Stefon Diggs on a first and ten on a comeback route. Josh faced a little pressure in his face because DeMarvin Leal, the Pittsburgh Steelers defensive tackle executed a good bull rush on O'Cyrus Torrence who got worked back into Allen and it affected him just a little bit but it was still a good throw and completion to Stefon Diggs. I would say the reason for the pressure was O'Cyrus Torrence. His hands were wide and late and so DeMarvin Leal was able to get into his chest and work him back and so the pressure on that play, the responsibility for that is O'Cyrus Torrence."

 

Interestingly, he blamed one play on Kincaid, saying he completely missed a chip he was supposed to make, which left Dawkins in an impossible position.

 

His conclusion was there were 12 dropbacks, and he was pressured on six of them, including the sack. He blamed Allen's pocket management for three of them. "Two times, I "guess" it was Dion Dawkins but I thought that was more of a result of Josh Allen and his pocket management. So big asterisk, big air quotes around Dion Dawkins for two of them."

 

Blamed Brown for one, one on Torrence and one on Dalton Kincaid.

 

Marino also points out how outstanding the protection was for Barkley and Kyle Allen. Hmmm. 28 dropbacks, 4 pressures.

 

[Low Positive]

I think that its because they told him that he couldn't run in a PS game and you can't take running out of JA's game. It just throws the whole thing off. I think that just knowing that he has the option to take off helps him stay in there and complete plays.

[Slippery Rubber Mats]

I plan on melting down and throwing a fit based on this information but I need to help knowing who and what to be angry at hit me up in the comments

[Thurman#1]

3 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

I think that its because they told him that he couldn't run in a PS game and you can't take running out of JA's game. It just throws the whole thing off. I think that just knowing that he has the option to take off helps him stay in there and complete plays.

 

 

Take a listen. That's really not what Marino says this points to.

[Low Positive]

4 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Take a listen. That's really not what Marino says this points to.

Well, If the problem is acutally Josh the only solution is to trade him because in year 6 he's not going to get any better.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

10 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

I think that its because they told him that he couldn't run in a PS game and you can't take running out of JA's game. It just throws the whole thing off. I think that just knowing that he has the option to take off helps him stay in there and complete plays.

Also likely he was trying to not get hit, in the pocket or out. He was definitely playing overly safe.

[frostbitmic]

Is that line capable of forming a pocket ?

[Boatdrinks]

5 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

Well, If the problem is acutally Josh the only solution is to trade him because in year 6 he's not going to get any better.

Yes. If Josh is the “ problem” in regular season losses, then it’s time to re-evaluate the Bills entire program and probably the McDermott regime as well. I don’t think we are there .. yet . The offensive line is a huge limiting factor in where this team’s  season is going to end up. If Allen is a limiting factor - again I believe he is a top 3 QB in the NFL- then what are we doing here ? This team has issues , but Josh Allen isn’t one of them. 

[RyanC883]

23 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

Joe Marino did a play-by-play breakdown of the pressure on Josh and found that a lot of it was on Josh himself. Backing up into rushers who had been directed too deep around him without any pressure forcing that backup. Leaving clean pockets. And so on.

 

 

It's in the first ten minutes.

 

Here's an example of one play that was not Allen's fault according to Joe:  "#4 you had a completion to Stefon Diggs on a first and ten on a comeback route. Josh faced a little pressure in his face because DeMarvin Leal, the Pittsburgh Steelers defensive tackle executed a good bull rush on O'Cyrus Torrence who got worked back into Allen and it affected him just a little bit but it was still a good throw and completion to Stefon Diggs. I would say the reason for the pressure was O'Cyrus Torrence. His hands were wide and late and so DeMarvin Leal was able to get into his chest and work him back and so the pressure on that play, the responsibility for that is O'Cyrus Torrence."

 

Interestingly, he blamed one play on Kincaid, saying he completely missed a chip he was supposed to make, which left Dawkins in an impossible position.

 

His conclusion was there were 12 dropbacks, and he was pressured on six of them, including the sack. He blamed Allen's pocket management for three of them. "Two times, I "guess" it was Dion Dawkins but I thought that was more of a result of Josh Allen and his pocket management. So big asterisk, big air quotes around Dion Dawkins for two of them."

 

Blamed Brown for one, one on Torrence and one on Dalton Kincaid.

 

Marino also points out how outstanding the protection was for Barkley and Kyle Allen. Hmmm. 28 dropbacks, 4 pressures.

 

 

thanks.  interesting stuff and analysis here.  

 

Did the OL have the Steelers starters when Barkley and Allen were in?  I don't know, that's why I'm asking!  

 

I'm a bit worried that the intense focus on Allen staying in the pocket more could cause more mistakes like what the video alludes to.  Allen does need to stay in the pocket a bit more, and likely this is a function of it being a preseason game and being told to not do anything to get hurt.  Regular season will be interesting, and a concern is this continues.  

[Royale with Cheese]

Allen reverted back to 2018 Allen.  I simply think it's because it's preseason and didn't want to take any extra risks to get hurt....so he got trigger happy feet and bailed early.

We know he's not afraid to take a hit and will take a hit if it means he has to hold onto it an extra millisecond to get that big gain.

[RoyBatty is alive]

Great job, thanks for posting.

 

Putting the blame on 2 rookies makes me feel better, especially Kincaid whose largest weak point as a Tight End is his blocking.  Josh Allen pocket presence is a bit concerning, how much of this was because of pre-season I don't know or because Josh has almost always " gotten away" with leaving the pocket early and improvising..

[SCBills]

Pretty interesting breakdown.  Listened to it earlier.  

 

It does sound like the OL issues were a lot more nuanced, and not as bad, as initially thought.

 

I also think putting Josh out there in games like this is almost dangerous at this point..  case and point, the bizarre play where he ran forward, had a lane to pick up yards, then ran back behind the LOS, changed direction, only to get sacked..  He's clearly thinking too much, to avoid preseason hits, which resulted in a play where he puts himself in a myriad of awkward positions to get hit.... in order to avoid a hit. 

[mbowman14]

The Oline (specifically the tackles) can't be absolved of all blame.  However, there are two issues with Josh:

1. Last season because of the porous play at Guard (Saffold especially), Josh couldn't step up in the pocket on a regular basis and his brain became trained to bail.  This is an issue for the tackles as they do need to drive the pass rush deep at times which is what Dawkins did on the first 3rd and 2 play and backing up took Josh into the rush.  I think this is the biggest reason why Torrence was drafted and McGovern was signed so that the middle of the pocket could be more solid and provide a place to step up into the throw.  Hopefully these two don't get beat immediately or knocked backwards off the LOS as was the case at Guard far too frequently in '22.  Josh will need to adjust to trusting the Guards and Morse to solidify the area directly in front of him to step up into the pocket and not bail.  

2. Josh at times needs to take the easy check-down throws and not rely on bailing the pocket (mostly to his preferred right side) for big plays.  This is easier said than done as big plays are his nature and you don't want to completely remove that threat.

[HappyDays]

Yeah the tackle play was not bad as I thought after my first watch. I am still worried about Dawkins' conditioning though. I don't expect our OL to be elite, I am just hoping for middle of the pack.

 

Allen has not looked that quick to leave the pocket since his rookie year. I don't believe he has suddenly regressed, I think it was drilled into his head that his first priority was to not take any hits in a meaningless preseason game so it affected his play. I also think once he watches the tape and sees that he can trust his interior to hold up and handle stunts, unlike last year, he will be more willing to step up in the pocket and deliver.

 

It was a good podcast, thank you for posting it.

[947]

There was one play early (first drive, I think) where the pocket was clean & Allen could've stepped up if needed. But he bailed out to the right, directly into where TJ Watt was headed. Brown was doing a really good job with Watt on the play, and that fell apart when Allen rolled into the danger zone. It's that stuff that concerns me.

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Yeah the tackle play was not bad as I thought after my first watch. I am still worried about Dawkins' conditioning though. I don't expect our OL to be elite, I am just hoping for middle of the pack.

 

Allen has not looked that quick to leave the pocket since his rookie year. I don't believe he has suddenly regressed, I think it was drilled into his head that his first priority was to not take any hits in a meaningless preseason game so it affected his play. I also think once he watches the tape and sees that he can trust his interior to hold up and handle stunts, unlike last year, he will be more willing to step up in the pocket and deliver.

 

It was a good podcast, thank you for posting it.

 

I still think Dion was pretty bad. He was blown by on a couple of those plays. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

They had 10 players on the field on their very first play. There’s that.

[Jukester]

37 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Allen reverted back to 2018 Allen.  I simply think it's because it's preseason and didn't want to take any extra risks to get hurt....so he got trigger happy feet and bailed early.

We know he's not afraid to take a hit and will take a hit if it means he has to hold onto it an extra millisecond to get that big gain.

I agree partly on the happy feet but he definitely is not sliding up in the pocket like he should be. Seems like that should be muscle memory at this point in his career and it’s concerning. Marino gave a great example of Dawkins pushing the end up field on a speed rush, Allen had a good pocket but instead of climbing into it he went laterally into the rusher. I know exactly which play he’s referring to and he’s spot on.  Chalking it up to preseason rust and maybe lack of trust in his o-lime but we’ll see.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Jukester

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Nobody here will accept Josh does dumb things in the game that hurt the team, but it’s true, sometimes he does. 

[JohnBonhamRocks]

4 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

They had 10 players on the field on their very first play. There’s that.

They should do that all preseason. Think how easy things would feel come regular season!

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, Jukester said:

I agree partly on the happy feet but he definitely is not sliding up in the pocket like he should be. Seems like that should be muscle memory at this point in his career and it’s concerning. Marino gave a great example of Dawkins pushing the end up field on a speed rush, Allen had a good pocket but instead of climbing into it he went laterally into the rusher. I know exactly which play he’s referring to and he’s spot on.  Chalking it up to preseason rust and maybe lack of trust in his o-lime but we’ll see.

 

Allen hasn't had this problem in years.  If you stay in the pocket, there are still blindside hits possibility.  I'm not chalking this up as concerning being that it's a preseason game.  He has no problem sliding, stepping up or moving inside the pocket...one preseason game isn't going to think he's declining in that area.

[GoBills808]

6 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

They had 10 players on the field on their very first play. There’s that.

pry sure that was also Allen's fault

5 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Nobody here will accept Josh does dumb things in the game that hurt the team, but it’s true, sometimes he does. 

Every QB does dumb things in the game that hurt their team, every single one

[Dan]

51 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Also likely he was trying to not get hit, in the pocket or out. He was definitely playing overly safe.

That’s the issue i have with ..this board this week.   It was a game that most people didn’t even want Josh or most of the starters to play in.  But, when they do and clearly looked to be avoiding hard contact (presumably to avoid injuries) or the coaches intentionally try to put players in a position to learn (e.g., Kincaid blocking, not Knox), then everyone comes here and screams the sky is falling and ready to blow the entire team and front office up for being so inept.   Hell, Beane is getting grief for signing a camp fodder LB.    Its just ridiculous how bad this place has gotten after a completely meaningless game. 
 

 

43 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Yes. If Josh is the “ problem” in regular season losses, then it’s time to re-evaluate the Bills entire program and probably the McDermott regime as well. I don’t think we are there .. yet . The offensive line is a huge limiting factor in where this team’s  season is going to end up. If Allen is a limiting factor - again I believe he is a top 3 QB in the NFL- then what are we doing here ? This team has issues , but Josh Allen isn’t one of them. 

You’re so hopeful though, aren't you?  

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

7 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

pry sure that was also Allen's fault

Every QB does dumb things in the game that hurt their team, every single one

Also true. The amount per game and weeks to week vary. Josh can still be a bit of a roller coaster in their department. 

[John from Riverside]

I thought that some of Josh Allen’s drop packs were a little too deep that can really mess with your lines blocking scheme

 

It’s preseason for everybody, including our star quarterback

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Also true. The amount per game and weeks to week vary. Josh can still be a bit of a roller coaster in their department. 

If your highs are very high your lows are going to appear lower by comparison

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, Boatdrinks said:

Yes. If Josh is the “ problem” in regular season losses, then it’s time to re-evaluate the Bills entire program and probably the McDermott regime as well. I don’t think we are there .. yet . The offensive line is a huge limiting factor in where this team’s  season is going to end up. If Allen is a limiting factor - again I believe he is a top 3 QB in the NFL- then what are we doing here ? This team has issues , but Josh Allen isn’t one of them. 

Come on.  What is being said is that Dorsey and Josh could do some things like quick shorter routes, screens, etc.  to slow down the rush.  The overreactions this week after one preseason game are insane.

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Come on.  What is being said is that Dorsey and Josh could do some things like quick shorter routes, screens, etc.  to slow down the rush.  The overreactions this week after one preseason game are insane.

He's right

 

If what this team needs is for Allen to improve there is little hope of progressing 

[jkeerie]

Josh needs to stop going for the long ball.  He said he needed to be smarter about that this year.  Well, Josh, please get smart.  You weren't in this game.  

[Chaos]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

Joe Marino did a play-by-play breakdown of the pressure on Josh and found that a lot of it was on Josh himself. Backing up into rushers who had been directed too deep around him without any pressure forcing that backup. Leaving clean pockets. And so on.

 

 

It's in the first ten minutes.

 

Here's an example of one play that was not Allen's fault according to Joe:  "#4 you had a completion to Stefon Diggs on a first and ten on a comeback route. Josh faced a little pressure in his face because DeMarvin Leal, the Pittsburgh Steelers defensive tackle executed a good bull rush on O'Cyrus Torrence who got worked back into Allen and it affected him just a little bit but it was still a good throw and completion to Stefon Diggs. I would say the reason for the pressure was O'Cyrus Torrence. His hands were wide and late and so DeMarvin Leal was able to get into his chest and work him back and so the pressure on that play, the responsibility for that is O'Cyrus Torrence."

 

Interestingly, he blamed one play on Kincaid, saying he completely missed a chip he was supposed to make, which left Dawkins in an impossible position.

 

His conclusion was there were 12 dropbacks, and he was pressured on six of them, including the sack. He blamed Allen's pocket management for three of them. "Two times, I "guess" it was Dion Dawkins but I thought that was more of a result of Josh Allen and his pocket management. So big asterisk, big air quotes around Dion Dawkins for two of them."

 

Blamed Brown for one, one on Torrence and one on Dalton Kincaid.

 

Marino also points out how outstanding the protection was for Barkley and Kyle Allen. Hmmm. 28 dropbacks, 4 pressures.

 

The futile effort of the dim to find strange and unusual ways to blame Josh for all of the Bills failures is often comedy gold.  This vidieo is just boring. 

[Airseven]

Allen is panicked behind this OL. You feel the pressure ratchet up when he steps behind center on obvious sneak calls. For all his own faults, i.e. accuracy, ball security, composure, I still attribute a lot of the inconsistency to him becoming a happy feet hero within an offense he doesn’t trust.

[AuntieEm]

11 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Come on.  What is being said is that Dorsey and Josh could do some things like quick shorter routes, screens, etc.  to slow down the rush.  The overreactions this week after one preseason game are insane.

 

  Yes they can do alot in scheming to help the line and keep pressure off Josh.  However preseason isn't the place to display those schemes and plays.  They are practicing those plays, but I'd have been more upset if they showed all the shiny new plays in a meaningless preseason game and gave the Jets a bunch if tape to counter those.  Much rather have the Jets scrambling to find counter moves on GameDay where perhaps the counter is something their younger players don't have7 any experience with so they fail to implement the adjustments and they lose the game to a superior Bills team.

[78thealltimegreat]

Josh needs a change of scenery it’s clear he’s a California kid after this season he can goto Brandon and tell them he would like to be traded. Then the Bills will have to watch as Kyle Shannahan knows what to do with him as he just came within one game of the Super Bowl with Brock Purdy. 

Edited August 22, 2023 by 78thealltimegreat

[Heitz]

Man, I didn't except the complaints about the season to jump the shark this early, but here we are... 🙄 (and, for the record, not sure that emjoi captures the reality of my eyeball rolling through my freaking skull)

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Also likely he was trying to not get hit, in the pocket or out. He was definitely playing overly safe.

this. He was probably playing to avoid any contact, as opposed to playing normally. Probably the worst thing you can do too. 

[fergie's ire]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

Joe Marino did a play-by-play breakdown of the pressure on Josh and found that a lot of it was on Josh himself. Backing up into rushers who had been directed too deep around him without any pressure forcing that backup. Leaving clean pockets. And so on.

 

 

 

Interestingly, he blamed one play on Kincaid, saying he completely missed a chip he was supposed to make, which left Dawkins in an impossible position.

 

 

 

He better get that worked out.  I remember Shakir doing exactly the same thing last year and it seemed like it was right after he whiffed on that block that his playing time dwindled.  Unlike many I think McDermott WILL play rookies, but he has a very quick hook with them when they make mistakes.  Hopefully, he will see that Kincaids abilities greatly outweigh his deficits and will keep him on the field.

[zow2]

Love JA, but he can clean up a few things.  As people mention he can step up more and release, thereby avoiding the back pedaling and dipsey-doo moves to get around edge rushers.

He and Dorsey need to take more pages from the Mahomes and Burrow arsenal.  They don’t try to throw 20-25 yard lasers on every other set of downs.  They often get the ball out to the check down guys, fast and neutralize pressures. Burrow killed us in the playoff game with that stuff.

[oldmanfan]

53 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

He's right

 

If what this team needs is for Allen to improve there is little hope of progressing 

You guys are unbelievable.  No one is saying it's ALL Allen, nor is it being said that it is ALL the Oline. The Oline can play better, Josh can make some better decisions, Dorsey can make better calls.  And so on.

 

Really, what the hell is going on around here this week?  The starters on offense played three series in a pre-season game and the level of insanity is worse than it is during the regular season.

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

You guys are unbelievable.  No one is saying it's ALL Allen, nor is it being said that it is ALL the Oline. The Oline can play better, Josh can make some better decisions, Dorsey can make better calls.  And so on.

 

Really, what the hell is going on around here this week?  The starters on offense played three series in a pre-season game and the level of insanity is worse than it is during the regular season.

What did I say that was so insane there lol

 

Relax

[SoonerBillsFan]

2 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

Joe Marino did a play-by-play breakdown of the pressure on Josh and found that a lot of it was on Josh himself. Backing up into rushers who had been directed too deep around him without any pressure forcing that backup. Leaving clean pockets. And so on.

 

 

It's in the first ten minutes.

 

Here's an example of one play that was not Allen's fault according to Joe:  "#4 you had a completion to Stefon Diggs on a first and ten on a comeback route. Josh faced a little pressure in his face because DeMarvin Leal, the Pittsburgh Steelers defensive tackle executed a good bull rush on O'Cyrus Torrence who got worked back into Allen and it affected him just a little bit but it was still a good throw and completion to Stefon Diggs. I would say the reason for the pressure was O'Cyrus Torrence. His hands were wide and late and so DeMarvin Leal was able to get into his chest and work him back and so the pressure on that play, the responsibility for that is O'Cyrus Torrence."

 

Interestingly, he blamed one play on Kincaid, saying he completely missed a chip he was supposed to make, which left Dawkins in an impossible position.

 

His conclusion was there were 12 dropbacks, and he was pressured on six of them, including the sack. He blamed Allen's pocket management for three of them. "Two times, I "guess" it was Dion Dawkins but I thought that was more of a result of Josh Allen and his pocket management. So big asterisk, big air quotes around Dion Dawkins for two of them."

 

Blamed Brown for one, one on Torrence and one on Dalton Kincaid.

 

Marino also points out how outstanding the protection was for Barkley and Kyle Allen. Hmmm. 28 dropbacks, 4 pressures.

 

I saw the same thing, all he had to do was step up in the pocket on at least a couple of them.  The one knock I have on Josh is he still doesn't feel the pocket as well as he should and scan the entire field. I want to see him hit his 3,5,7 step drops and throw the ball. That was a Montana, Brady etc. Trademark.