O’Cyrus Torrence Dominating (video breakdown)

[BigAl2526]

Shorter demonstrated the ability to be an effective short passing target.  His reputation in college was as a deep ball receiver, so this could be an indication he has some versatility.  

[Franco_92]

14 minutes ago, maddenboy said:

Yes.   But his grabbing is super obvious.

 

In the video, he was praised repeatedly for doing this.

 

I gotta think that there is a technique for doing this without it being Holding.  Or, at least, it not being flagged for holding.

 

And if it is a good thing, that he is coached to do, he sure seems to be doing it well.  Especially where they point out that it helps him have time to correct a mistake during the early portion of his rep.

This is standard technique

[LeGOATski]

15 minutes ago, maddenboy said:

Yes.   But his grabbing is super obvious.

 

In the video, he was praised repeatedly for doing this.

 

I gotta think that there is a technique for doing this without it being Holding.  Or, at least, it not being flagged for holding.

 

And if it is a good thing, that he is coached to do, he sure seems to be doing it well.  Especially where they point out that it helps him have time to correct a mistake during the early portion of his rep.

It's all about where you grab. Has to be inside the shoulders, as far as I know

[RiotAct]

5 hours ago, Warcodered said:

Odd to single out that play considering he actually made the block on it.

he’s just… resting.

[sven233]

They always do a great job over at Cover 1 with these video breakdowns.  It definitely reinforced what I saw on the initial watch and the re-watch I did.  He wasn't perfect, but it was pretty close to it.

 

While this video was about Torrance and the outstanding job he did, I couldn't help but turn my attention to Kincaid as he was in the shots many times.  First off, the kid's going to be a star.  His route running with his releases and cuts out of his breaks were so fluid.  There isn't a LB in the league that is going to cover him 1 on 1 consistently.  He's that good already.  We have been waiting for our own version of Kelce and, while he may not be on that level yet, I definitely can see him getting there at some point.  He is going to be a match-up nightmare for years to come.

 

When I watched his tape leading up to the draft, I immediately made the Kelce comparison, but it just sounds crazy to say that.  But watching the way he runs routes......he's open more often than not and just creates so much separation that you can't help but wonder if he will be the next great one.  He wasn't great at blocking on the few snaps I watched him in this breakdown, but I'll say this.....he's a willing blocker.  He wants to do it and tries to do his best.  Unfortunately, he is just not strong enough right now to even be average.  He got wrecked on a block attempt in this breakdown.  So, I don't think you will see him do it often.  They will pick their spots in the run game in 12 personnel, but they are not going to force it on him.  Just let him run.

 

Anyway, that was a bit of a tangent, but I couldn't help but notice him during this breakdown in the few plays he was on the screen.  There wasn't a lot to like in yesterday's game, but these 2 rookies were not part of the problem.  They were excellent.

[gobills404]

7 hours ago, Einstein said:

0:50 into the video you can see Spencer Brown get absolutely obliterated by a linebacker. 

 

But yes, Torrence played well. I am excited about him. He is the first piece in rebuilding this o-line. We will need a new Center, RT and LT in the next year or two.

 

You mean the LB that didn’t lay a finger on the RB? That’s called mission accomplished. Try again.

 

Edit: Lol there’s multiple plays by Brown in the video worse than that one you could’ve picked. You LITERALLY couldn’t even last 60 seconds without saying something negative.

Edited August 21, 2023 by gobills404

[DrDawkinstein]

2 hours ago, maddenboy said:

Yes.   But his grabbing is super obvious.

 

In the video, he was praised repeatedly for doing this.

 

I gotta think that there is a technique for doing this without it being Holding.  Or, at least, it not being flagged for holding.

 

And if it is a good thing, that he is coached to do, he sure seems to be doing it well.  Especially where they point out that it helps him have time to correct a mistake during the early portion of his rep.

 

Grabbing the outside of the lower chest pad with your elbows in will totally fly. That's proper technique.

 

It's when the hands go to the outside of the upper shoulder pads, and/or you get your elbows up/out and arms extended that they'll get you.

 

[Dr.Sack]

7 hours ago, wppete said:

We got ourselves a stud! 🤞🏻 

 

 

When a 1st round pick falls to 59 you draft him. 

[BullBuchanan]

5 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Grabbing the outside of the lower chest pad with your elbows in will totally fly. That's proper technique.

 

It's when the hands go to the outside of the upper shoulder pads, and/or you get your elbows up/out and arms extended that they'll get you.

 

yea, the thing I'm concerned about is that his first instinct seems to be to go straight for the outside of the should pad, but I'll choose to believe it'll get sorted out if it ever leads to an issue. He looks comfortable enough in what he's doing that I don't think he needs it.

[DrDawkinstein]

19 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

yea, the thing I'm concerned about is that his first instinct seems to be to go straight for the outside of the should pad, but I'll choose to believe it'll get sorted out if it ever leads to an issue. He looks comfortable enough in what he's doing that I don't think he needs it.

 

That wasnt bad. He gets off that quick, and often gets under the shoulder pads to get good control. They wont call any of that. Especially a OG on DT. They can get away with all that pretty easily.

 

Kid looks solid.  👍

[CSBill]

10 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

If you watch the video, forget about Torrence, and watch McGovern and Edwards.   They're just as good.   Really solid interior line blocking, with Morse or Bates at center.  

 

Speaking of Edwards, hasn't he played OT? Maybe time to consider him at RT ?????

[CNYfan]

11 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

If you watch the video, forget about Torrence, and watch McGovern and Edwards.   They're just as good.   Really solid interior line blocking, with Morse or Bates at center.  

Lat Murray was excellent in protection as well.  

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, CSBill said:

 

Speaking of Edwards, hasn't he played OT? Maybe time to consider him at RT ?????

 

He did in college (played RT) and in pre-season as a rookie. Has been only a guard since. I did wonder whether the Bills would consider it at all, but I've heard zero reports from camp so I'm inclined to believe they have no desire to do that. 

27 minutes ago, CNYfan said:

Lat Murray was excellent in protection as well.  

 

Always has been one of the best pass pro backs in football. 

[Matt_In_NH]

Good details in the video with communication with Brown and helping with Watt on the spin move.  I find the video frustrating to watch/ listen to because he is overly verbose and the constant and unnecessary playback/paus/long pauses.  

[GunnerBill]

25 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

Good details in the video with communication with Brown and helping with Watt on the spin move.  I find the video frustrating to watch/ listen to because he is overly verbose and the constant and unnecessary playback/paus/long pauses.  

 

Haha, welcome to Eric Turner. 

[MJS]

9 hours ago, maddenboy said:

Yes.   But his grabbing is super obvious.

 

In the video, he was praised repeatedly for doing this.

 

I gotta think that there is a technique for doing this without it being Holding.  Or, at least, it not being flagged for holding.

 

And if it is a good thing, that he is coached to do, he sure seems to be doing it well.  Especially where they point out that it helps him have time to correct a mistake during the early portion of his rep.

Olinemen grab on every single play. You just have to know when to let go to not get called for holding.

[HappyDays]

Nevermind, time to scale back the Torrence hype.

 

PFF gave him a 40.0 out of 100 pass blocking grade. Worse than every Bills offensive lineman other than Ike Boettger. This matches up with what we all saw, right?

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Matt_In_NH said:

Good details in the video with communication with Brown and helping with Watt on the spin move.  I find the video frustrating to watch/ listen to because he is overly verbose and the constant and unnecessary playback/paus/long pauses.  

I have the same reaction, but I think it's good film-watching technique.   I think that's how a lot of the pros watch film, because that's how you catch all the detail in what's going on.  He is a bit repetitive, but reps are what it's all about.   

 

For example, he needs the reps to point out the hand communication between Torrence and Brown.  I never knew that's what they do, but it's critical to handling the rush.  Each lineman needs to be looking at his man, but also needs to know where his teammate is so that they can hand off rushers and move on to the next guy.  While that's going on, there's also footwork that is critical, as well as balance, and use of the hands.  

 

Turner likes showing off all the jargon he's learned, but jargon is what's used in any profession.  

 

So, yeah, it's a little repetitive, but it's by far the best detailed film study available to Bills fans anywhere.  

[warrior9]

15 hours ago, Einstein said:

0:50 into the video you can see Spencer Brown get absolutely obliterated by a linebacker. 

 

But yes, Torrence played well. I am excited about him. He is the first piece in rebuilding this o-line. We will need a new Center, RT and LT in the next year or two.

 

LOL He didn't get "blown up" he quite literally made the block .. you can also quite literally see the running back in this screenshot running by the guy he blocked. You have some vendetta against this guy based on your posts and he was not bad at ALL in this game, let alone a play where he sprung our RB for a 8-10 yard gain. 

[Don Otreply]

Just now, warrior9 said:

LOL He didn't get "blown up" he quite literally made the block .. you can also quite literally see the running back in this screenshot running by the guy he blocked. You have some vendetta against this guy based on your posts and he was not bad at ALL in this game, let alone a play where he sprung our RB for a 8-10 yard gain. 

One would think that a the thin air at the heights most only dream of attaining has caused our resident “Einstein” to be be a afflicted by hypoxia, reducing his attention to detail…, 

 

 

[Warriorspikes51]

should have taken Dawand Jones to pair next to him. We would have been in solid shape.  Jones is dominating so far 
 

Instead, we drafted another LB in the 3rd who will likely be inactive most of the season barring a surge up the depth chart.
 

Beane has a fascination with keeping 6 LB's on the roster with only 2 of them on the field while OT is treated like an afterthought 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by Warriorspikes51

[Royale with Cheese]

15 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

One would think that a the thin air at the heights most only dream of attaining has caused our resident “Einstein” to be be a afflicted by hypoxia, reducing his attention to detail…, 

 

 

 

We have to add offensive line film grader to his expert list.  What he is up to, like 5 things he's an expert at?

[warrior9]

37 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

We have to add offensive line film grader to his expert list.  What he is up to, like 5 things he's an expert at?

"Spencer Brown pulled, made a great block, sprung our RB for 10 yard gain but he fell in the process.... terrible block. What offensive linemen would fall on the ground making a block?"

[Ralonzo]

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

Nevermind, time to scale back the Torrence hype.

 

PFF gave him a 40.0 out of 100 pass blocking grade. Worse than every Bills offensive lineman other than Ike Boettger. This matches up with what we all saw, right?

 

Boettger and Quessenberry match up for pass pro. Van Demark and Alec Anderson not being on the list implies their pass pro grade was > 77.6 according to the sort. This also matches up to the eye test. Edwards as well, who was this weeks McGovern for being non-descript while just winning rep after rep. Torrence is an outlier for sure, and definitely looked better than that to me. Maybe he gets dinged by PFF for turning his feet like a duck.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Ralonzo

[Royale with Cheese]

3 hours ago, HappyDays said:

Nevermind, time to scale back the Torrence hype.

 

PFF gave him a 40.0 out of 100 pass blocking grade. Worse than every Bills offensive lineman other than Ike Boettger. This matches up with what we all saw, right?

 

"Pff is better at evaluating offensive line play than Travis Kelce/Eric Wood" - Einstein.

 

I'm not making this up, he really said that.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Royale with Cheese

[Einstein]

6 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

"Pff is better at evaluating talent than Andy Reid" - Einstein.

 

I'm not making this up, he really said that.

 

No, I didn't.

 

I pointed out that Andy Reid was once known for assembling subpar offensive lines, but this changed when he recognized the need to protect Mahomes after the LV SB. I noted that the inadequacy of his lines could be observed through PFF's evaluations.

 

You countered by arguing that if Andy Reid chose the linemen, the PFF grades were irrelevant. According to your perspective, Reid's decision must be correct.

 

I responded by emphasizing that even great teams make mistakes in signing players.

 

For example, Marv Levy, a Hall-of-Fame coach, signed Derrick Dockery to a contract worth nearly $50 million. Dockery's performance was so disappointing that he was released just two years into a seven-year contract. Even a coach with the credentials of Levy can make a wrong decision, and it doesn't make it right simply because of his reputation.

 

Or if you don't like the Marv Levy example, let's draw an example from Andy Reid himself. In 2009, Reid's Eagles signed Stacy Andrews (RT) to a massive (at the time) 6 year, $40M contract. He was so bad, and so depressed, and so injured that that he only played 2 games - yes, two games - out of his six year contract. He was released a year later.

 

And this was not the only player that Reid failed to adequately judge prior to signing. To quote Bleacher Report, "Reid's inability to make his free-agent acquisitions pay off in the past few seasons ultimately led to the end of his tenure in Philadelphia." link

 

Your mischaracterization of the discussion, and your blatantly false quote, is not surprising. 

[FilthyBeast]

All indications so far is Torrence looks like the real deal and kudos to this staff for not wasting any more time with a pointless competition at the position.

 

With that said it's very concerning that a rookie is the best player on the oline and all the critics concerns have been validated so far through these 'meaningless' preseason games.

[Franco_92]

32 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

All indications so far is Torrence looks like the real deal and kudos to this staff for not wasting any more time with a pointless competition at the position.

 

With that said it's very concerning that a rookie is the best player on the oline and all the critics concerns have been validated so far through these 'meaningless' preseason games.

McGovern had an even better game than Torrence, Morse is a top center, and film revealed that the Bills playcalling was set up to artificially stress tackles and see how they respond, and the universal conclusion was that they held up better than most people thought on first watch. The Bills won't be calling 10 yard dropbacks every play against elite fronts when games matter

 

I cant believe you'd show your face here again for another season of getting your clock cleaned over and over and over 

[Royale with Cheese]

39 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

No, I didn't.

 

I pointed out that Andy Reid was once known for assembling subpar offensive lines, but this changed when he recognized the need to protect Mahomes after the LV SB. I noted that the inadequacy of his lines could be observed through PFF's evaluations.

 

You countered by arguing that if Andy Reid chose the linemen, the PFF grades were irrelevant. According to your perspective, Reid's decision must be correct.

 

I responded by emphasizing that even great teams make mistakes in signing players.

 

For example, Marv Levy, a Hall-of-Fame coach, signed Derrick Dockery to a contract worth nearly $50 million. Dockery's performance was so disappointing that he was released just two years into a seven-year contract. Even a coach with the credentials of Levy can make a wrong decision, and it doesn't make it right simply because of his reputation.

 

Or if you don't like the Marv Levy example, let's draw an example from Andy Reid himself. In 2009, Reid's Eagles signed Stacy Andrews (RT) to a massive (at the time) 6 year, $40M contract. He was so bad, and so depressed, and so injured that that he only played 2 games - yes, two games - out of his six year contract. He was released a year later.

 

And this was not the only player that Reid failed to adequately judge prior to signing. To quote Bleacher Report, "Reid's inability to make his free-agent acquisitions pay off in the past few seasons ultimately led to the end of his tenure in Philadelphia." link

 

Your mischaracterization of the discussion, and your blatantly false quote, is not surprising. 

 

I got them mixed up so you're right there.  I'll edit it to Travis Kelce and Eric Wood...in which you did say.

 

You did say that Reid has always struggled evaluating offensive line talent.  And you discredited this article.  Said it was "vague" when it gave specific details lol.

https://www.nbcsportsphiladelphia.com/nfl/eagles-still-following-andy-reids-philosophy-on-offensive-linemen/371421/

 

And no to the bolded.  Good god.

 

 

[finn]

17 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Might have also hit on 4 if that idiot Beane didn't trade up for Kincaid...

I'm more upset he gave away a 4 to move up for Elam. Even at the time that seemed like too much to go up just a few spots. In hindsight, it looks even worse, given that he could have taken Tarik Woolen with that 4th, more or less, and a tackle with the 1st pick. They'd have two starters now instead of none. 

[Jerome007]

17 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

there's no doubt he did very well, but it seems he has a default tendency to grab to opponents pads. I wonder if that's going to be a problem.

I noticed that too and wondered the same.

 

In the same video, McGovern looked good too! 

[Einstein]

3 hours ago, warrior9 said:

LOL He didn't get "blown up" he quite literally made the block .. 

 

If by made the block, you mean he got rocked into a different universe, then yes. 

[Jerome007]

20 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

If by made the block, you mean he got rocked into a different universe, then yes. 

Doubling down? Ha ha

 

Sure , it didn't look so good he fell on his butt. But he made the block! He did. 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by Jerome007

[first_and_ten]

18 hours ago, KingBoots8 said:

I honestly don’t know how he fell to 59, but I’m glad we were able to capitalize on that and bring him in. I was thinking he’d go around late 30s - early 40s. My other favorite guard out of this years class was Steve Avila (who can play anywhere in the middle of the OL). He’s gonna be a star if he shows up on gameday when it matters.

 

I actually think we have a solid foundation for the middle of the OL right now. Tackle is where things are getting messy - Dawkins underperformed and Brown needs to make some major improvements quickly to avoid losing his job. McGovern, Morse, and Torrence are going to do well. I think we let Morse walk next year and insert Bates into the staring Center position and it won’t be a major downgrade.

 

A major investment is needed to keep Josh upright- I’d prefer a known commodity if we can afford it, but we need to draft a Tackle next year early. MLB is the other major position of need but I’d rather get the line figured out first. Best way to win is to score more points, and the best way to do that is to get Josh all the time he needs. Hopefully we get it sorted out and both Dawkins and Brown step up their game. I could see maybe even getting a LT upgrade and moving Dawkins back to RT for a year if needed.

 

Who would Brown lose his job to? Quessenberry ? If Brown doesn't improve asap, expect Josh Allen to get injured game one.

18 hours ago, KingBoots8 said:

Yeah, but then you wouldn’t have Kincaid. He jumped Dallas who was salivating at the chance of getting him. Did you see their draft room when we got him? They looked dejected and upset as hell.

 

I may be wrong here, but i thought he was being funny

17 hours ago, NewEra said:

You’re upset that we traded up for Kincaid?

 

Again, I think he was just being funny

[first_and_ten]

17 hours ago, MasterStrategist said:

Great video/analysis.

 

One thing that stood out during live game, and confirmed here, is the "variety" of looks, schemes, stunts the Steelers threw at us.  5 man, 6 man rushes, various stunts and fronts/wide 9 too, etc. 

 

This is the Steeler defense, but not something you see teams do in preseason.  They put alot on film, didn't go "vanilla" as some say.  It's not an excuse, but when you don't scheme specifically, and looked like Dorsey was trying new concepts under center/route development, this is partly the result.  

 

Living in Steeler country, I know a couple media/close contacts to team.  One texted me during the game, that he had learned during week that Steelers did some "moderate" planning for this game...to put forth a good showing for their only home preseason game/bitter taste from LYs game.  Just passing along, its impossible to tell how this compares to the "prep" our staff did specifically for this game.

 

You're exactly right. Tomlin even said before the game that this game would show what we are made of. They got beat 38-3 by the Bills last year and were treating this game as if it meant something. 

[KingBoots8]

20 minutes ago, first_and_ten said:

 

Who would Brown lose his job to? Quessenberry ? If Brown doesn't improve asap, expect Josh Allen to get injured game one.

I could see a potential trade or a pickup from cuts around the league coming in to compete.

 

Doc clarified he was joking. It’s hard to tell around here some days lol 😂

Edited August 21, 2023 by KingBoots8

[NewEra]

18 minutes ago, first_and_ten said:

 

Who would Brown lose his job to? Quessenberry ? If Brown doesn't improve asap, expect Josh Allen to get injured game one.

 

I may be wrong here, but i thought he was being funny

 

Again, I think he was just being funny

Yes, thanks. He answered upthread. 

[warrior9]

20 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

If by made the block, you mean he got rocked into a different universe, then yes. 

Ok, go back and watch that and tell me he didn't spring the back

 

You reallllly don't know football my dude. Just because he didn't hit him and drive him back does not mean he didn't impede the guy's ability to get to the back. I get you're a sportscenter guy and want to see cool pancakes but this is the NFL and by definition, he made the block. 

 

If he didn't make the block, how come the guy (who is seen about 3 yards behind the running back) didn't make the tackle? They ran right at the guy.

[Kmart128]

On 8/20/2023 at 6:41 PM, Einstein said:

0:50 into the video you can see Spencer Brown get absolutely obliterated by a linebacker. 

 

But yes, Torrence played well. I am excited about him. He is the first piece in rebuilding this o-line. We will need a new Center, RT and LT in the next year or two.

 

 

Yet he still made the block to spring Murray. Id rather a LB tackle the guy without the ball.

[BarleyNY]

On 8/20/2023 at 6:41 PM, Einstein said:

0:50 into the video you can see Spencer Brown get absolutely obliterated by a linebacker. 

 

But yes, Torrence played well. I am excited about him. He is the first piece in rebuilding this o-line. We will need a new Center, RT and LT in the next year or two.

 

 

I can’t tell you how excited I’d be about the right side of the line if the Bills had taken Dawand Jones in the third round. Imagine those two monsters next to each other.