Coaching Malpractice - Frazier Needs to be fired - the play that illustrates it

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

55 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

No that’s what Miami did on 3rd and 15. I definitely wouldn’t do a zero on 3rd and 15.

 

 

I'm not a fan on zero blitz on 3rd and short. 5 yards is short for today's NFL offenses.  Rather see it on 3rd and 7-10. Just too easy to get 5 yards. And one missed tackle and they are guaranteed to get the first. Miss tackle on 3rd and 8 and you still have a shot at pursuit getting there. 

[Aussie Joe]

Interesting... Who can us fans sue for this malpractice?

[Fan in Chicago]

41 minutes ago, 0017 said:

It’s such a bummer, he was one of my favorite players on this team, I know I’m not alone. Hope he gets his game back. 

You are not alone. I love the guy.  

The team will have to go through multiple surgeries thos offseason but he is one of the organs that should be untouched and allowed to heal fully

Edited January 24, 2023 by Fan in Chicago

[billieve420]

3 minutes ago, Billl said:

So you want Tre White trying to press Jamar Chase?  That seems like a good idea to you?

Deep ball still has lower percentage of being completed versus throw few yards away. Tre made play on ball just last week against Dolphins on deep ball that he was able recover and knock it out of the player’s hand.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

Funny thing is we did ultimately end up holding them to a FG on this possession anyway. But the damage to the Bills psyche was already done. 

[wppete]

1 hour ago, Donuts and Doritos said:

Frazier's not getting fired. So we need to get him hired as a HC instead. Someone get the Cardinals # & let's start making calls.

If Frazier gets a HC interview that will just prove it’s complete BS. 

[Billl]

Just now, billieve420 said:

Deep ball still has lower percentage of being completed versus throw few yards away. Tre made play on ball just last week against Dolphins on deep ball that he was able recover and knock it out of the player’s hand.

That’s great and all, but sometimes one guy is just better than the other guy.  Chase is a far superior player to White at this point in White’s career.  White had a chance to tackle him short of the first down.  Frazier put him in the position to make a winning play.  Chase trucked him.  Not much you can do about that as a DC.  Cincy’s best offensive players (Burrow, Chase, Higgins, Boyd, Mixon, etc.) are simply better than Buffalo’s best defensive players.  Milano is a good player, but when he’s easily the best guy on your defense, you aren’t stopping a team like the Bengals.  That’s not a coaching deficiency.  It’s a talent (and health) imbalance.

[LifeLongBillsFan]

14 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:

Interesting... Who can us fans sue for this malpractice?

The NFL is purely an entertainment industry - can’t sue for anything

With that note - there is a good chance games are scripted  

[Aussie Joe]

1 minute ago, LifeLongBillsFan said:

The NFL is purely an entertainment industry - can’t sue for anything

With that note - there is a good chance games are scripted  

 

Ok.. in that case "malpractice" is the wrong term to use

[Cotton Fitzsimmons]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

 

Normally i’d agree, but in this particular situation, the OP’s photo really does tell the truth.

The Bills lined up 10 yards off the ball and never moved. Even after the snap. Tre only moved after the ball was caught.

 

So incredibly easy to beat.

 

Here is a photo after the snap.

 

It’s almost like they tried to lose. There’s really no explanation for any of this. 

[LifeLongBillsFan]

27 minutes ago, Cotton Fitzsimmons said:

It’s almost like they tried to lose. There’s really no explanation for any of this. 

Did you watch the Charges last game?  Looked a lot like that.  The NFL isn’t always what it seems 

 

[Norcalbillsfan]

1 hour ago, Billl said:

So you want Tre White trying to press Jamar Chase?  That seems like a good idea to you?

In that zero blitz situation he has to play press or at least play up because the line to gain was too far away for tre to make a play on a slant that easily picks up the first like he did. Did the outcome seem like playing that far back was a good idea to you? 

[Dr.Sack]

Frazier had a senior moment. Perhaps im a nice guy but I don’t believe the guy is as incompetent as yesterdays game showed. 

[Motorin']

2 hours ago, Simon said:

 

Thanks for the better pic.

I still have a hard time trusting still shots of fluid situations.

Personally, I prefer to see sticky man if you're going to send both 'backers into the A gaps.

 

This play killed me live. I wanted to throw something at the TV. I could believe they played this far off on such a crucial 3rd down. It was infuriating in the moment. And even worse looking at it now. 

 

[wppete]

14 minutes ago, Trock said:

He’s a Rooney interview. That’s all, they’re using him. 

That is just insane. 

[biggerdaddynj]

Here’s a link to the lineage of our defensive coordinators. Read the little snippet about Frazier for a good laugh (or cry).  FWIW it reminded me that I liked the Jim Schwartz year as our DC (2014):

 

https://pro-football-history.com/franchpos/7/8/buffalo-bills-defensive-coordinator-history

[bills11]

Fraziers/ McDermott's philosophy has been an issue.

 

They design the defense around limiting big plays..we blitz far less than other teams..this worked fairly effectively when the entire defense was relatively healthy and tre was able to provide upper level coverage along with both safeties playing at an elite level..the scheme obviously needs to be tweaked when we can't even keep teams in front of us anymore . We don't get consistent pressure and barely beat the dolphins with their backup QB tyreek and waddle torched us in every matchup 

[John from Riverside]

Firing Fraser today would be an emotional response. I don’t want bills management to do that.

 

If they do an evaluation and decide that’s not the way that they wanna go anymore than fine

[billieve420]

2 hours ago, bills11 said:

Fraziers/ McDermott's philosophy has been an issue.

 

They design the defense around limiting big plays..we blitz far less than other teams..this worked fairly effectively when the entire defense was relatively healthy and tre was able to provide upper level coverage along with both safeties playing at an elite level..the scheme obviously needs to be tweaked when we can't even keep teams in front of us anymore . We don't get consistent pressure and barely beat the dolphins with their backup QB tyreek and waddle torched us in every matchup 

McDermott comes from Jim Johnson 4-3 attacking type system. I still believe it is more about the play caller versus system itself. McDermott should be on hot seat next year and take on calling plays. I just can’t see anything changing much if things remain status quo. Hopefully someone hires Frazier to be their HC but don’t see that happening.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Im hoping for him to get a HC job but if not he should be let go. Ive never liked his style of defense and we need a change  3 years ago

 

 

[Bookie Man]

The team coached and played scared/tight the whole game. It was odd to see. No juice.

[4th&long]

They suck! 
 

The play that has me scratching my head was Matt Milano covering chase on his td catch that was ruled incomplete.

[GunnerBill]

I hated that playcall for a different reason. Hated the blitz call. Hated it. Hated it. Hated it.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

7 hours ago, Simon said:

 

Personally, I prefer to see sticky man if you're going to send both 'backers into the A gaps.

A lab animal would know that's what you're supposed to do. Our DC and HC don't.

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

Those that hope a team is “dumb enough” to hire Frazier; What’s really the difference between Frazier and McDermott as HC?
 

Leadership? Maybe, but the team comes out flat in that game so what’s that really worth.

 

Our in-conference rivals are probably thinking “I hope the Bills are dumb enough to keep McDermott”

[Since1981]

OC. Daboll on the Giants sideline? Energy. Ideas. Took NY QB to heights. We don’t have to think hard to find example O coach. O and 17 slowly missed Daboll as time progressed. 
 

DC. new blood. Prevent Defense as your base??. Wooohooo, fails vs good QBs

 

HC. See above. 

[Matt_In_NH]

I am never really a fire everyone guy especially over one play.  But I will say I wondered aloud in real time given the down and distance presnap what in the heck are they doing before this play.  
 

if Tre was a good aggressive tackler maybe he could have stopped him short of the first down but just barely.  Tre has been awful hopefully he gets well

tjis off-season 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Matt_In_NH

[Pete]

 

[pocoboy]

9 hours ago, arcane said:

That looks like cover 0 to me. FWIW, I usually see cushions around that size when teams call cover 0. The same thing that allowed Diggs to run by the Dolphins last week, but also forced errors and got sacks. 

Not defending the call or anything, I hate calling 0 against anyone but bad/rookie QBs, and i also could be wrong 

 

My assumption is that, in this concept, if the ball is thrown quickly, the defender is supposed to fly at the receiver and foremost make an immediate, clean tackle. Any chance of a pass breakup would be welcome too, but you have no help, you must take him down at the point of contact.

 

But on that slippery field? Likely with the wrong choice in cleat? With a guy who is still in some level of recovery from ACL?

 

In some ways I feel bad for Frazier. His team was a combination of unsettled and worn out. I'm not sure any defensive scheming ends up affecting the Bengals offense much on that particular day. 

 

Again, if I'm going to put the microscope on the situation - it has to be how the offense couldn't scheme their way to more than 10 points. Inexcusable.

 

You can be the judge of what percentage can come down to a lack of quality offensive personnel vs. the lack of an experienced coordinator vs. the previously mentioned unease/fatigue. I'd venture to say it's about 5/70/25. Daboll had this team humming.

Edited January 24, 2023 by pocoboy

[DrPJax]

6 hours ago, IBTG81 said:

No. That’s pretty much what it looked like at the snap. 

     Exactly. Look we all know the saying “ a photos worth a thousand words “ ; well , I guess all of us except that person who is just throwing out bs to throw out bs. You don’t need more to explain that photo , it is what it is, and 99% of people who watched the game and saw that play know the picture stands by itself as an example the OP was trying to portray in his/ her post. 
We all know and saw that the ball was immediately snapped as part of the Bills d was presenting a blitz while the dbs  dropped BEYOND the sticks (unfortunately, we have seen this many times in the past  with Frazier as the d coordinator ) , and Burrows immediately threw to the boundary receiver who wasn’t touched until he was already beyond the first down. It was an important third down conversion.  

     It was commented on by analysts , content providers, and just plain old simple fans. Don’t believe me, well, heres anither example   Just go do a little homework if you need convincing , check out THE AIR RAID HOUR on YouTube today , less than 1/2 hour in when the one content provider comments on this exact play and said “ that third and four , when they just blitzed everybody , left 8 yards of cushion , was insane . And don’t put that on the players, that’s on Leslie Frazier”!  This is just one example of people understanding that exact play and picture as it stands alone, and there are many more examples of people commenting about it even in this thread, so asking for more video around it or it means nothing must be,,,,,sarcasm? . 

       That play along with the remainder of the defensive performance represent the issues that resulted in something NOT opinion based, but FACT based; the Bills were once again sent home at the divisional playoff level.  All the  dvoa / pff type stats can’t negate that FACT, and the eye test we all witnessed; the defense was mistake prone  and played uninspired , poorly executed football that was not up to the standard it requires to advance further, and that seems like a coaching issue.   That’s the problem with a fact. It’s truth and it’s not up to interpretation or opinion. You can ignore facts , but it’s funny , that doesn’t make them nonexistent. Ignoring facts is a difficult way to put forth a valid argument or discussion.. 😀

       ( poster , this is NOT in reference to you , just referencing that absurd  idea presented by arguing that pic by itself, right before the snap meant NOTHING without more video support , when we all know exactly what it  resulted in 😊)  

       
     If I’m allowed to add a little, given  Sundays results, the Cincy  staff is providing a model of how to draft, team build, coach to your strengths , be offensively and defensively creative , and how that gets an organization to 2 AFC Championship games. While the Bills were chasing kc , investing so much draft capitol on literally chasing Mahomes ( who is in kc only because  Mcd gave the draft pick for mahomes to Kc in his first draft ), and  have fallen behind a second team now in addition with the Bengals jumping them.     It’s a step back and we are arguably in worse position than after 13 seconds.
       You probably won’t be seeing the Bills as SB favorites early next year unless they dramatically change and support their franchise qb with more talent on the o line , a legit wr corp , and a legitimate running game similar to the teams still  advancing in the playoffs. . So far we have little evidence given  the past 5 years that such a philosophical change is going to happen.  We see players drafted but used so sparingly it’s hard to see how they can develop , and we have seen players traded for but then used oddly or not creatively , players resigned and then used for less than a handful of plays in a game.  It’s bizarre things, with no coherent or cohesive plan and it resulted in declining performance until the teams final exit.  So it seems fair to say that one picture posted  is an insight or emblematic of all the strange coaching decisions that were going on this season.   Without some new input , I believe at the coordinator level , I am at a point where it’s difficult to feel optimistic the Bills will advance further and it’s possible they will be bypassed by even more franchises. As an analogy , if you’re not advancing your knowledge in your chosen field or career path , you are likely falling behind. 
      Somewhat paraphrasing the Op, using this picture is just ONE example of a Bills defense that was currently not adequate. Like John Fina stated on his podcast today , “ no one fears the Buffalo defense”!  You shouldn’t require more video to understand that concept, and you don’t have to be in the locker room or have been a former NFL coach to grasp the fact  that having coaching resulting in a 4-5 playoff record is not resulting in a Super Bowl.
Something needs to change and I would hope soon as time is passing  regarding Allens prime years and the surrounding AFC competition.  Burrows was not shy, and was laughing while interviewed saying they expected to dominate this defense and they did that , and that picture represents at least one obvious example how that came about and it easily stands alone. .  (😊 please forgive my rambling, feeling a bit triggered after that very unsatisfactory way the season ended and defending one of the most egregious plays implying  some how that picture is misrepresenting the play seems disingenuous.. Hoping for a productive offseason!  )

[ProcessTruster]

9 hours ago, Donuts and Doritos said:

Frazier's not getting fired. So we need to get him hired as a HC instead. Someone get the Cardinals # & let's start making calls.

my understanding is he does not need to be fired as his contract has expired.   just don't offer him a new one.  

[Governor]

9 hours ago, Chaos said:

This is McDermott's defensive scheme, he can't fire Frazier without indicting himself as failing. In McDermot world, scheme and play calling are perfect, and the untalented players let him down. 

That’s pretty much it. That’s why this is an organizational failure that really can’t be fixed by anyone other than Terry.

[nosejob]

I find it ironic that against the Fins, they played press man and knocked Hill and Waddle off their game. I hoped that was a preview and preached it all week.

But nope....right f...in back to turtle mode. I have no hope for this team until Frazier is gone....and I would like for someone to prove to me this is McD's call and he's a puppetmaster.

Edited January 24, 2023 by nosejob

[Livinginthepast]

9 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

White had a chance to save the 3rd down conversion despite the horrible play call, but yah he whiffed on that tackle.

A chance? A snowball in hells chance. Chase caught it and with his big body and momentum just pushed trey back for the first down. If Trey even slight jams him at the line instead of 5 yards back he has a chance. But definitely not in that scenario.

[bobobonators]

9 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

Normally i’d agree, but in this particular situation, the OP’s photo really does tell the truth.

The Bills lined up 10 yards off the ball and never moved. Even after the snap. Tre only moved after the ball was caught.

 

So incredibly easy to beat.

 

Here is a photo after the snap.

 

This is embarrassing. 

[nucci]

10 hours ago, Simon said:

It's a still picture well before the snap and before the Bengals OL is even set.

 

Did the Bills DB's creep up before the snap?

Did they attack the sticks after the snap?

Did the two LB's drop into zones on the seams?

 

Unless you have video of the actual defense being run, this photo is completely meaningless, imo.

Romo called it. Said if Bills blitz ball is going to Chase. How do you blitz and not play tight coverage?

[Stuartjohn]

10 hours ago, Donuts and Doritos said:

Frazier's not getting fired. So we need to get him hired as a HC instead. Someone get the Cardinals # & let's start making calls.

 

10 hours ago, Donuts and Doritos said:

 

I actually remember this play they stayed like that through the snap & Burrow tossed an easy 1st down to Chase who was top of the screen. It was talked about a ton this morning by Howard & Jeremy on WGR who were saying we rushed 7 but gave an 8 yd cushion on 4th & 4. It was odd. 

Do you honestly think Somebody would want Leslie Frazier??LOL!!!

 

On 1/8/2023 at 7:52 AM, PonyBoy said:

 

Apparently only if we clinch the #1 seed. Had a chance this year.

 

On 1/11/2023 at 1:04 PM, Green Lightning said:

I am resigned to the fact our road to the SB will include a meet up with the Bengals. They are the team to beat. After watching our secondary get carved up last week by mediocre Mac Jones, it gives one pause.

 

On 1/17/2023 at 7:33 PM, somnus00 said:

If Josh Allen takes what the defense gives him and the offense pays with rhythm... Bills 34 - 24.

 

[Donuts and Doritos]

4 minutes ago, Stuartjohn said:

 

Do you honestly think Somebody would want Leslie Frazier??LOL!!!

 

 

 

 

 

Lol. If I thought they did, I wouldn't be saying he needs our help w/ phone calls to drum up interest. 

 

Someone said his contract is up anyway. We'll see.

[Coffeesforclosers]

27 minutes ago, DrPJax said:

(😊 please forgive my rambling, feeling a bit triggered after that very unsatisfactory way the season ended and defending one of the most egregious plays implying  some how that picture is misrepresenting the play seems disingenuous.. Hoping for a productive offseason!  )

 

No worries bud, you aren't wrong. Air Raid Hour is a good podcast too, they're part of Cover 1's operation and Cover 1 is ***** awesome.

 

 

[Coffeesforclosers]

20 minutes ago, nucci said:

Romo called it. Said if Bills blitz ball is going to Chase. How do you blitz and not play tight coverage?

 

Off coverage is the hedge if the blitz doesn't get home. Which it probably won't because we're crap at disguising our blitzes, and our LBs aren't exactly skilled pass rushers. Especially late in the season when there's a ton of film on us.

 

Calling a 6 man pressure, with press-man type coverage is very risky. Basically if one of the cover guys gets beat, it should be a TD for the O.

 

That call is Frazier saying that his coverage can't hold up, so our best chance is to try and drop Burrow or force and incompletion/Int.  Obviously the easy answer is throw hot to the huge, athletic WR for a new set of downs.