Fox News- Josh Allen's spiritual awakening

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 hour ago, WotAGuy said:

This is also true.
 

Is it possible that prayer helped everyone involved to perform exactly the way they needed to for Damar to survive?  It certainly helped those of us who were hoping he would survive and helped us feel like we were providing aid in our own way. 
 

I guess my point is if people want to believe it is a miracle and that prayer helped, what difference does it make?  I don’t hear anyone saying that others need to believe in prayer over the science and preparation that saved Damar’s life. 
 

And couldn’t “science” be man’s God-given intelligence and ingenuity in action?

 

 

 

Never said what people should believe and never will.  They can beleive God was involved. I choose to celebrate the science and the skill of those involved in saving his life. 

[WotAGuy]

2 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Never said what people should believe and never will.  They can beleive God was involved. I choose to celebrate the science and the skill of those involved in saving his life. 

Well, you said you didn’t want to denigrate people’s beliefs and then went on to say prayer did not save Hamlin.
 

You can’t have it both ways by dismissing other people’s beliefs after saying you don’t want to denigrate their beliefs. 

[Michael1962]

So, I am in the undecided camp when it comes down to the worldview that there is a God or not.  If we choose the former then, the logical conclusion is that God is a Tom Brady fan.  Another version of the theodicy issue.

[BarleyNY]

13 hours ago, Chaos said:

This is such an improvement over the mocking that Tim Tebow recieved.  Josh is a special young man. 

Tebow wasn’t mocked, his fanboys were for insisting that he was a good/great QB. 

[WotAGuy]

2 minutes ago, Michael1962 said:

So, I am in the undecided camp when it comes down to the worldview that there is a God or not.  If we choose the former then, the logical conclusion is that God is a Tom Brady fan.  Another version of the theodicy issue.

I think the Pats losing the Super Bowl after that undefeated season shows God hates Tom Brady too. 🤣

[HomeskillitMoorman]

10 hours ago, purple haze said:

Not necessarily.  It means it wasn’t in God’s plan for that person to continue on in this realm.  The Bible says it rains on the just and the unjust.   Prayer is powerful ( I’ve seen that evidence in my own life.)  That doesn’t mean we will always get the result we want.    
 

We see things through a limited prism.  We see the surface of things.  We don’t know about the intricacies of every person or every situation we encounter.     For example, I had a friend who collapsed one day and passed away unexpectedly; had been taking weight loss supplements.     I also know he was seriously struggling with his station in life.   Dreams that didn’t come true, things he wanted to do for his family that he couldn’t do.   He was very unhappy.  And he carried that with him daily.  For us left behind his passing was tragic.  For him?  Maybe the Lord was merciful and brought him home so he could have peace.    Like I said we can only see through our limited prism.  

 

What about all of the things though that don't potentially tie up in a clean way like that? I've known people who died who loved life and their dreams were coming true and their loved ones struggled immensely after they passed. 

 

It seems like it aligns much more with just the randomness of life and our existences. I grew up in a Christian setting and was in the military where I probably did the. most praying I ever did in my life...and I had the opposite experience, that it wasn't powerful at all and really horrific things still happened.

 

It's fine if you believe in God...but you're trying to say your own individual experience means it's true. I'm not saying God doesn't exist because of my own individual experience. But I'm willing to see the full scope beyond just my personal experience or the one of any single individual. If God stepped in for Damar but not for the thousands of people who suffer tragedies every day...I'm glad he did for Damar but I've got some questions about everyone else. 

[Another Fan]

14 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

Tebow wasn’t mocked, his fanboys were for insisting that he was a good/great QB. 

Yeah I still remember the last Bills home game in 2011 was against Denver.  Like at the height of Tebow mania.  

 

Tim played awful and the Bills won like 41-17 or something along those lines.  Which was kind of a surprise at the time.  

 

But anyway many Tebow Sucks chants were heard in the crowd.  There were some fans on the old BBMB that thought that was way out of line being him such a devout young man.  But yeah I think the conclusion was more they were mocking what they thought was the overhyped product on the field.  Nothing to do with his faith.  Good times 

[Long Suffering Fan]

12 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

My father always hated back in the day when players thanked Jesus, God for their succes... He always said, God don't play favorites... 

 

Maybe, but that doesn't mean you can't ask.  😀  My kids would get off the boss and always have some unimportant story or detail from their day that they wanted to tell me.  I was never interested in the substance or the conversation, but always loved having them none the less.  I became interested in things that were "beneath me" because I loved my kids.

 

11 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

I think that locker rooms are a melting pot and in general more tolerant of differences than the general public.

 

This.  The key to eliminating hate is remembering we are on the same team.

 

11 hours ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Josh is truly a good dude. A guy with his level of talent who can literally play QB against anyone on the planet punch for punch should honestly be much cockier individual but he’s just a down to earth good human being. 

 

So true.  Tom Brady was "humble" on the surface but it came across as soooo fake.  Josh seems genuinely humble, good dude, guy you would like to hang with, etc.

 

[SCBills]

I’ve always been someone who’s extremely analytical.  Grew up in a Christian household. 
 

I prayed for my uncle who was dying from cancer.  It was a long, drawn out fight full of suffering.  He didn’t win his battle.  
 

That didn’t shake my faith in prayer.  God doesn’t answer all prayers the way we wish he would.  
 

My personal reasoning for why I believe God is real .. The hollowness I feel when I’m distant.. so many of us, from the dawn of time have been born with an emptiness we seek to fill and a questioning for meaning.   Also, the fact science, which I try to explain away unexplained events with, has - to this day - not been able to tell me what preceded The Big Bang.  Until someone can tell me how energy came come from nothing, believing in an omnipresent God (energy) holds just as much weight as any other explanation.  
 

My chosen belief system gravitates to Jesus due to the concept of love/forgiveness.   It’s not for lack of questioning and fighting it though.. so I get it. 
 

Whatever you believe happened in Damar’s case .. something bigger than him occurred that night.   It created a unity in the country around prayer and re-examined the lost reliance in our country on God.  I’ve never seen anything like it. Josh noticed it, we all noticed it.. and Damar noticed it. 
 

Whether you believe prayer is real or maybe just placebo, so many of us turned to it last week and remembered what it felt like to focus our energy towards God, and how it feels when an entire country turns their eyes to Him. 
 

I understand some have had horrible experiences with religious institutions, but in terms of a spiritual moment, it seems like there are far worse things for our country than it’s people joining in unison and placing their faith in a higher power. 
 

As for Tebow.. the criticism always felt personal.  Yea, people were over the top in defending his play.. but the attacks did not come from an honest place (imo). 

[dave mcbride]

13 hours ago, Doc said:

In!

Out

[SoCal Deek]

11 minutes ago, BUFFALOBART said:

Faith is a very personal matter. I question the sincerity, of people who wear their 'Faith' like a blinking neon sign.

You are aware that the Great Commission commends them to share their faith…..right? You are under no obligation to accept the invitation. 

[nucci]

13 hours ago, HerdMentality said:

I said it at the time, if I was in cardiac arrest and being worked on for 9 minutes, there's probably no better place I would choose than in front of 100,000 Bengals fans in the middle of the Bible Belt --- maybe the biggest prayer meeting since a Billy Graham crusade. Prayer is real. God is real. The preciousness of human life is what caused this outpouring of love and support from across the nation.

I disagree. I was a catholic, alter boy at SS Peter and Paul. 2 uncles priests and 1 aunt a nun. I prayed when my father had a heart attack, he still died. I prayed when my mother had cancer, she died, I prayed when my brother got cancer, he died. Didn't work for me.

Edited January 14, 2023 by nucci

[Doc]

14 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Out

 

This thread lasted longer than I thought it would.

[frostbitmic]

2 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

This thread lasted longer than I thought it would.

It's Gods will.

[Malazan]

18 minutes ago, SCBills said:

My personal reasoning for why I believe God is real .. The hollowness I feel when I’m distant.. so many of us, from the dawn of time have been born with an emptiness we seek to fill and a questioning for meaning.   Also, the fact science, which I try to explain away unexplained events with, has - to this day - not been able to tell me what preceded The Big Bang.  Until someone can tell me how energy came come from nothing, believing in an omnipresent God (energy) holds just as much weight as any other explanation.  

 

Which God created the God who caused the Big Bang? 

[Dancing Fool]

On 1/14/2023 at 10:59 AM, NUT said:

While we don't fully understand the universe, I think we can guarantee there is no dude in a white toga and white beard out there making sure a kickoff return happens three years and three months later. 

 

Humans need to do better.

I agree wholeheartedly.

 

Those who simplify religion to such ideas are missing the point.

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

 

This thread lasted longer than I thought it would.

 

Exactly.  Last week there was a warning thread to keep this very stuff off the board.   This is PPP material.

[SCBills]

2 minutes ago, Malazan said:

 

Which God created the God who caused the Big Bang? 

People who believe in God believe He is the alpha and omega.  Also was, always will be.  
 

I certainly get why someone would question that, as you have .. but science has no answer, yet, as to what created the energy that caused the Big Bang. 
 

We’re essentially seeking an answer to the same question. 
 

Edited January 14, 2023 by SCBills

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

1 hour ago, BarleyNY said:

Tebow wasn’t mocked, his fanboys were for insisting that he was a good/great QB. 

Uhh, they did a whole Saturday Night Live skit mocking him (which was funny by the way)

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Never said what people should believe and never will.  They can beleive God was involved. I choose to celebrate the science and the skill of those involved in saving his life. 

 

I celebrate both.

 

God enabling the science and skills of those involved in saving his life.

[Goin Breakdown]

1 hour ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

 

I respect that you at least have the humility to say you don't have all the answers. I grew up in a Christian setting and that was always so maddening to me. They didn't want to hear my questions and just couldn't admit that all the answers weren't in the Bible. And the evangelical side of it and people seemingly being OK with others being sent to Hell specifically not for being Christian was always a big turnoff for me. 

 

I'm firmly agnostic, I believe anything is possible and love to debate about it but I appreciate that you see that other side of it that it's incredibly hard to make sense out of all of it rather than having a condescending view that you just "know" God and others don't. 

I appreciate this. Everything you said. Yeah I just can't go around acting like I have it all figured out. I do believe that God has a purpose and I do not have a revelation as to what it all is. I have His word and need to respect that as I am on a "journey of faith", so are others. I can't expect another person to be where I am at or to put pressure on myself to be where they are either. My hope is that others know Christ, but I know that not everyone does and I can't put disrespect upon them for not believing what I do. I believe that God is love and that I have to be loving as an example. Yelling at people doesn't create any kind of change but relationships and patience with love can. 

Edited January 14, 2023 by Goin Breakdown

[Beck Water]

12 hours ago, jkeerie said:

Anyone who would imply that...does not know God.

 

The belief that that faith, expressed through prayers, declarations of faith, and donations to the church—draws health, wealth, and happiness into believers' lives is a Thing (especially the health and wealth).  Prosperity Gospel is alive and well in many churches, sometimes subtly and between the lines, sometimes explicit.

My BIL was for many years, the minister of a series of small country fundamentalist Christian churches.  That's what he felt called to do, though it paid poorly and he supported his family running a business.  But he (and we) heard with our own ears people who identify as Christians implying he did not know God or have strong enough faith, because God had not blessed him with wordly goods.  And yeah, when my niece's FIL passed from a disease I won't mention, it was implied by some that his faith, and the faith and prayers of his family were not sufficiently pure or strong.

 

I respect faith, and I believe that prayer has a real power, but I feel that interpreting football success as divine favor is a form of Prosperity Gospel.   You might grasp from the above, I am not a fan of that in any form.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Beck Water

[wppete]

Amazing article. Great to see. 

[WotAGuy]

38 minutes ago, NUT said:

While we don't fully understand the universe, I think we can guarantee there is no dude in a white toga and white beard out there making sure a kickoff return happens three years and three months later. 

 

Humans need to do better.

Agreed. That toga was Royal Bills Blue baby!

[Johnny Bravo]

13 hours ago, Trock said:

Oh, the old guilt trip from some guy in the sky looking down on us making sure we behave. Repent!!

Yeah, because that is what he said.

[WotAGuy]

I wonder if the Bills locker room has had these very same discussions. I’m sure not every player is a Christian and there are likely agnostics and atheists on the team.
 

McDermott talked openly about God’s presence in the Damar situation last week.  I wonder how much of that he presents to the team and how that is received by those that don’t hold the same beliefs.

 

I can see that there have been some deep and maybe contentious discussions in the locker room the past couple weeks. Hopefully, they are able to make it all work together. 

3 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Why is this still a thread? 

I was wondering how it made it this far as well. Hopefully it’s because people are being civil and carrying on with some Bills relevance sprinkled in. 

[Beck Water]

44 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

Uhh, they did a whole Saturday Night Live skit mocking him (which was funny by the way)

 

I thought that SNL skit was hysterical.

 

But were they mocking Tebow for being a Christian, or for Tebow and other Christians attributing the Broncos wins to divine favor and otherwise making a huge public deal out of his beliefs, as though (paraphrasing the skit) Jesus was in fact dropping everything else going on in the world to "bail out the Denver Broncos in the 4th Q"?

 

I think the latter, because at the time there had been other publicly professed Christians prominent in the NFL, like Kurt Warner in '08-09, and I don't recall their beliefs being parodied by comedians.  I could mis-remember.

 

Again, I respect faith as a personal belief, I respect professions of belief, and I do believe that prayer has a real, positive power.  But I don't like Prosperity Gospel and I feel attributing football success to prayer or divine favor is a form of Prosperity Gospel like God is a kindergarten teacher putting gold stars on the best coloring page. 

 

To me it's different to thank God for a win out of the sincere belief that everything you do is as a servant of God and for His Glory.  I believe that when McDermott says "all Glory to God" after a victory, he's expressing thanks that he and his team have been given the physical and mental gifts to work hard and achieve a win and he's dedicating his part in that achievement to the Glory of God - he's not saying "we won because I believe, therefore God rewarded us with Divine Favor and gave us the victory"

 

I believe that because of little phrases McDermott drops that remind me of the way some of my family with those beliefs would phrase things.

 

I'm probably not expressing the difference I see very well.  I'm not used to talking about this stuff.  But it's a clear difference to my mind. 

 

And of course I could be wrong, not being personally acquainted with Coach McDermott or his personal beliefs.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Beck Water

[Trock]

53 minutes ago, Johnny Bravo said:

Yeah, because that is what he said.

Im not into cults nor fear mongering. 

[muppy]

31 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Why is this still a thread? 

who are you the thread police? It's got 6 pages and civil.  You Can pass it on by if not your cuppa tea.

 

Peace.

[jkeerie]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

The belief that that faith, expressed through prayers, declarations of faith, and donations to the church—draws health, wealth, and happiness into believers' lives is a Thing (especially the health and wealth).  Prosperity Gospel is alive and well in many churches, sometimes subtly and between the lines, sometimes explicit.

My BIL was for many years, the minister of a series of small country fundamentalist Christian churches.  That's what he felt called to do, though it paid poorly and he supported his family running a business.  But he (and we) heard with our own ears people who identify as Christians implying he did not know God or have strong enough faith, because God had not blessed him with wordly goods.  And yeah, when my niece's FIL passed from a disease I won't mention, it was implied by some that his faith, and the faith and prayers of his family were not sufficiently pure or strong.

 

I respect faith, and I believe that prayer has a real power, but I feel that interpreting football success as divine favor is a form of Prosperity Gospel.   You might grasp from the above, I am not a fan of that in any form.

Neither am I.  God does not promise prosperity and churches that preach that are gaining prosperity from their attendees.  It's almost like they're turning religion into a ponzi scheme.  In the words of Tevya from Fiddler on the Roof..."Would it spoil some vast eternal plan, if I were a wealthy man?"

[JDHillFan]

34 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

I think it’s obvious the regime targets players of faith… so I would imagine a very large % of the locker room are devout believers in god.

Can you provide any examples of how they target players of faith? This would imply they exclude others. Any examples? Or is it just because the owner and coach aren’t bashful in speaking on matters of faith?

[TheyCallMeAndy]

43 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

I think it’s obvious the regime targets players of faith… so I would imagine a very large % of the locker room are devout believers in god.

Most of the NFL is very religious, IMO

[BarleyNY]

1 hour ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

Uhh, they did a whole Saturday Night Live skit mocking him (which was funny by the way)

IIRC that skit did not mock him being a Christian, it mocked him for how vigorously he promoted that aspect of himself and how bad of a QB he was. 

[Jauronimo]

4 hours ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

I pray for them every week. Also, of note, sometimes it takes darkness to see the light. That's how it worked with me.

 

 

Well whatever it was, welcome back to the light of TBD, Brother Joe!

[jkeerie]

2 hours ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

 

The classic crutch from Christians who don't want to actually have a tough in-depth discussion..."you just don't know him like I do!"

 

That's not what I was saying at all.  My point was that anyone who would imply that a person died because someone who loved him/her didn't pray enough is just wrong and is attaching an aspect to God that is conditional.  I don't claim to know God any more than the next person.  But, I know whom I believe. 

 

I don't have the answers to all the questions nor do I claim to.  There is randomness in this world.  Bad things happen to good people and vice versa.  That's actually what the book of Ecclisiastes is about..."all is vanity and striving after wind."   Such things can drive one away from faith and believing that there even could be a God.  For others, the opposite conclusion is just as possible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jauronimo]

1 hour ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

Uhh, they did a whole Saturday Night Live skit mocking him (which was funny by the way)

He was anointed, he was mocked, and everything in between.  He received way more attention than a project QB would have ever received, both good and bad, due to his faith.  ESPN recognized it right away and Tebowed us to death.  Even when his sports career was reduced to special teams gadget player and semi pro baseball player, there was a 3 ring circus following him.  Tebow used his platform to evangelize.  People lapped it up and others grew weary of it. 

 

I'm glad my QB has real talent and a personality apart from whatever brand of faith he subscribes to.   

[Goin Breakdown]

1 hour ago, WotAGuy said:

I wonder if the Bills locker room has had these very same discussions. I’m sure not every player is a Christian and there are likely agnostics and atheists on the team.
 

McDermott talked openly about God’s presence in the Damar situation last week.  I wonder how much of that he presents to the team and how that is received by those that don’t hold the same beliefs.

 

I can see that there have been some deep and maybe contentious discussions in the locker room the past couple weeks. Hopefully, they are able to make it all work together. 

I was wondering how it made it this far as well. Hopefully it’s because people are being civil and carrying on with some Bills relevance sprinkled in. 

I think McD is a great leader of men in that locker room. I don't think he is concerned about someone's faith when it comes to taking care of them and loving them as people. We should all do the same, treat people with respect regardless of their beliefs. I'm confident a that his approach works. That being said you can't please everyone all the time. This team seems to really be a "family". It's something that I have never really seen in football. I mean you got Allen and Diggs telling each other they love each other in media clips. That's really cool. Enjoy your day! And Go Bills!

[LeviF]

1 hour ago, WotAGuy said:

I wonder if the Bills locker room has had these very same discussions. I’m sure not every player is a Christian and there are likely agnostics and atheists on the team.
 

McDermott talked openly about God’s presence in the Damar situation last week.  I wonder how much of that he presents to the team and how that is received by those that don’t hold the same beliefs.

 

I can see that there have been some deep and maybe contentious discussions in the locker room the past couple weeks. Hopefully, they are able to make it all work together. 

I was wondering how it made it this far as well. Hopefully it’s because people are being civil and carrying on with some Bills relevance sprinkled in. 

I would bet that NFL players are more religious than the general population. American blacks are more likely to be religious than the general population and obviously the NFL has more black people, by percentage, than the general population. 

[NoHuddleKelly12]

3 hours ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

 

The classic crutch from Christians who don't want to actually have a tough in-depth discussion..."you just don't know him like I do!"

 

So if you believe there's this loving, kind God...why would it matter if someone was wrong and Christianity or any other specific religion was real? Seems awfully petty to hold that against someone in a world where so little can make sense and there are no straightforward answers. 

Happy to always talk more in DM with you; I know faith discussions like this that go into detail are generally frowned on otherwise.   I don’t pretend to have all the answers but I’m always up for a tough in depth discussion on this topic. 👍🏻

[Billsatlastin2018]

I am a lapsed Catholic, even a former Altar Boy. The trials and tribulations of life have led me to question- everything and develop a titanium spine to deal with its adversities and vicissitudes. And question God, because he was not there.

 

Whatever you believe happened in Damar’s case .. something bigger than him occurred that night.   It created a unity in the country around prayer and re-examined the lost reliance in our country on God.  I’ve never seen anything like it. Josh noticed it, we all noticed it.. and Damar noticed it. 

Still, like so many around the sports world and the planet, I was drawn to the Damar, never before seen, life changing event. It so impressed me, that the HCs, star QBs, teams and many commentators just got it absolutely correct! 
As in perfect! Soooooo needed in America today or anywhere for that matter.
 

And kudos to the world class health professionals in Cincinnati, especially those in the time stood still, agonizing, first 9 minutes! And yes, the simple spirituality of the entire story, including prayers to every god and belief in the indomitable human spirit.

 

As for Sideshow Bob Tebow? Meh. I have always disliked these displays of public adoration, designed to focus on ONE God and pimping up one individual. I always respected the Pharisees- Publicans dichotomy… and you know which side I’m on!

 

Immediately below is an: “Act like you’ve been Barry Sanders before”, tell. It is the way, I want Christians… hell people to act in life. And they most assuredly did with the Hamlin tale.

 

“By their deeds you will know them.”

 

And how cool is this story, that Lamar may one day return to the football field for the Bills as the first person who literally returned from a death experience.

 

’Spiritual ’ indeed. ✔️

Edited January 14, 2023 by Billsatlastin2018