Elam v Jackson

[Commish]

Gather that they roughly split time at DB2 - any opinions as to who played better?

Edited December 19, 2022 by Commish

[bobobonators]

I may be wrong, but the only time I saw someone get beat bad, it was Tre? Tre did make some plays though

 

I think the only time I saw Elam’s name was on a contested catch where the WR made a great play but Elam was right there in coverage. 
 

Id have to rewatch bc I don’t remember seeing much of Jackson (which is a good thing)

Edited December 19, 2022 by bobobonators

[Chandler#81]

This should be a poll.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

10 minutes ago, bobobonators said:

I may be wrong, but the only time I saw someone get beat bad, it was Tre? Tre did make some plays though

 

I think the only time I saw Elam’s name was on a contested catch where the WR made a great play but Elam was right there in coverage. 
 

Id have to rewatch bc I don’t remember seeing much of Jackson

Tre got beat a couple times deep pretty bad. Hill and Waddle toasted him deep. It’s interesting seeing teams target White. That’s 2 straight games he’s been getting targeted often. Teams must not believe he’s back yet. He normally is targeted very little.

[Captain_Quint]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's pretty obvious that each week, he's gaining confidence in the knee. He undercut a few routes and got his hands on some balls, which was more than last week. I think if the Bears watch the tape from this week, they may think twice about testing him again next week, because he was in position to pick off a couple balls.

 

 

This is pretty much his preseason still, and hopefully come playoff time he can turn that corner. 

 

 

[Ayjent]

Jackson is who teams target most of the time.  He’s not getting beat by much but he doesn’t do enough to break up the pass with his position even when he has good coverage.  Hamlin is the real liability in the secondary. 

[Commish]

Hmm, no one for Jackson : )

 

I mean, I'm not dissappointed. To the contrary I'd really be hoping that our #1 pick would be playing better at this point.

[CSBill]

I voted Elam, but not being a coach who will know what should have happened on each play, I have no idea.

 

Nonetheless, it looked like Elam played well.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

As was pointed out in one of the articles I read yesterday, Elam and Jackson kept rotating 2 series each, then the other one.  But at the end of the game, when it should have been Jackson's turn, they stuck with Elam.

[Buffalo Junction]

Elam is a better physical matchup for Waddle and Hill, which matters when you’re going to press at the line. He also has experience against Waddle going back to college iirc. This is something to re-examine when they go with a different coverage scheme. 

[atlbillsfan1975]

I trust our coaches and they have much more exposure to the players. There must be something going on during practice and game install which makes Jackson appear like he deserves snaps. During the game Elam’s skills pop off the screen, Jackson is another Levi Wallace, great guy w/ average skills but knows the system. 

[Mark92]

Honestly those were really tough wide receivers to play against and the fact that we didn't hear either of their names that often is good.  The dolphins were testing White all game long and he played a solid game.  I really like Elam and he will eventually become CB2 in this defense.  Bills don't play rookies much unless they have to.  

[Mynamemike]

1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Tre got beat a couple times deep pretty bad. Hill and Waddle toasted him deep. It’s interesting seeing teams target White. That’s 2 straight games he’s been getting targeted often. Teams must not believe he’s back yet. He normally is targeted very little.

It’s a smart move on their part.  See how confident he is in that knee in cold weather.  He’s had his moments where he looks like the Tre of old and then he’s been burnt pretty bad too. Hopefully in three more games his consistency gets back to normal.  

[H2o]

41 votes for Elam, 0 for Jackson

[MrEpsYtown]

Elam is already better than Jackson will ever be. He needs to play more to feel the flow of the game. I never liked the idea of rotating corners. There is too much of a chess game happening out there. Let him play and grow. 

[SCBills]

Watched Jackson get torched week in, week out..

 

Only saw Elam get beat on one play against an elite WR room where Tyreek Hill made a great catch as Elam made a play on the ball... a play on the ball ::gasp:: did not know our outside corners were allowed to do that.  

 

Only guy I saw get beat was Tre when he was playing press man, minus any actual pressing.  Although, outside that play, Tre was pretty good.

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by SCBills

[bobobonators]

6 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Watched Jackson get torched week in, week out..

 

Only saw Elam get beat on one play against an elite WR room where Tyreek Hill made a great catch as Elam made a play on the ball... a play on the ball ::gasp:: did not know our outside corners were allowed to do that.  

 

Only guy I saw get beat was Tre when he was playing press man, minus any actual pressing.  Although, outside that play, Tre was pretty good.

 

Tre definitely made some plays. But if I recall he got torched 2x - the first time by Waddle where Waddle literally ran right by him. The second was the TD pass to Hill. Two great WR, but Tre got abused those two plays. 

Edited December 19, 2022 by bobobonators

[HopelessNJBuffaloFan]

I would say Elam was the better one, but Tre had a horrible game. He looked good at times, and looked horrible at times.

[SCBills]

3 minutes ago, bobobonators said:

Tre definitely made some plays. But if I recall he got torched 2x - the first time by Waddle where Waddle literally ran right by him. The second was the TD pass to Hill. Two great WR, but Tre got abused those two plays. 

 

The Waddle TD looked like more of a scheme breakdown.  If I remember correctly, Edmunds saw what was going on, motioned to Poyer (who had crept up) to watch out for Waddle in the slot.. Poyer either misunderstood or didn't catch it, and Waddle ran right through the defense untouched.

[bobobonators]

Just now, SCBills said:

 

The Waddle TD looked like more of a scheme breakdown.  If I remember correctly, Edmunds saw what was going on, motioned to Poyer (who had crept up) to watch out for Waddle in the slot.. Poyer either misunderstood or didn't catch it, and Waddle ran right through the defense untouched.

I hear ya but im not referring to the Waddle TD. The play im referring to happened earlier in the game and it was for a big gain but not a TD. It was a 32yd gain in the second quarter. My focus on it is that Waddle beat Tre bad on it - like 2-3yds of separation bad. 

[SCBills]

Far be it for me to tell our coaches how to run the secondary..  If there's anything they should earn out trust on, it's being able to coach up the secondary.. but for the love of Christmas, just let Tre and Elam finish out the season and see if they can gel going into the Playoffs. 

 

No reason we can't have a poor man's version of what the Jets have in Sauce & Reed. 

 

I say "poor mans" because it remains to be seen if Tre can get close to 100% by the Playoffs and Elam just doesn't have the reps yet. 

[KDIGGZ]

Xavier Rhodes 

[NewEra]

32 minutes ago, Mark92 said:

Honestly those were really tough wide receivers to play against and the fact that we didn't hear either of their names that often is good.  The dolphins were testing White all game long and he played a solid game.  I really like Elam and he will eventually become CB2 in this defense.  Bills don't play rookies much unless they have to.  

Every Bills first round picks has started the majority, if not all, of their rookie year since McD has arrived.  Except Elam

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Every Bills first round picks has started the majority, if not all, of their rookie year since McD has arrived.  Except Elam

Yeah this narrative has come out of nowhere lol.

 

I think the rationalizations about the Cody Fords and AJ Epenesas of the world has gaslit Bills fans into a false reality.

[PaoloBillsFanFromItaly]

17 minutes ago, bobobonators said:

Tre definitely made some plays. But if I recall he got torched 2x - the first time by Waddle where Waddle literally ran right by him. The second was the TD pass to Hill. Two great WR, but Tre got abused those two plays. 

 

He didn't run "right" past him, he was tricked by the double move.

So It was more a mental mistake he probably thought he had help over the top but he had not.

In case of Hill, he tried to jam him at the line, but his "push" contacted only the air and the leverage and the speed of Hill easily carried him three steps beyond.

I am sure Tre will get better game after game, he already showed glimpses of his greatness.   

Edited December 19, 2022 by PaoloBillsFanFromItaly

[Dopey]

Whatever they are doing to be on a 5 game winning streak, works for me. As for the Miami game and getting burned a few times, those 2 guys are pretty good and have been burning just about everyone. Waddle avgs 18 yds per reception, Hill avgs 14 yds per reception.

[Freddie's Dead]

3 hours ago, Commish said:

Gather that they roughly split time at DB2 - any opinions as to who played better?

 

Did not know that they had a background as database administrators  

[TheyCallMeAndy]

I’ll have to see the numbers, I didn’t notice either guy.

[SCBills]

The Bills corners actually made plays on the ball for much of the game.  
 

It’s an improvement.  
 

I had gotten far too used to seeing yards of separation or the backs of our CB’s jerseys as the WR makes a catch over them. 

[Donuts and Doritos]

Benford!

 

Sorry, couldn't resist. Personally I've seen enough Dane Jackson for the year, he's a back up. Elam or Benford & frankly figure CB2 out this next game, w/ Cinci on deck. Need stability at the position going into the playoffs (& Dane ain't it).

[Eastport bills]

Elam held his own in coverage mostly,unfortunately Hill wins a lot of 50/50 balls and there were mixups on the TDs. I think Elam will be very good but the question is how much will he hurt us against Cinn. I’ve to get Hyde back for that one. Another great safety could help Elam a lot.

[Solomon Grundy]

5 hours ago, bobobonators said:

Tre definitely made some plays. But if I recall he got torched 2x - the first time by Waddle where Waddle literally ran right by him. The second was the TD pass to Hill. Two great WR, but Tre got abused those two plays. 

Maybe with better safety help those plays may have been prevented

[NickelCity]

6 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

As was pointed out in one of the articles I read yesterday, Elam and Jackson kept rotating 2 series each, then the other one.  But at the end of the game, when it should have been Jackson's turn, they stuck with Elam.

 

This analysis says the most. 

[Rochesterfan]

5 hours ago, NewEra said:

Every Bills first round picks has started the majority, if not all, of their rookie year since McD has arrived.  Except Elam

 

Many reasons to argue, but not sure this is really true.

 

Rousseau last year did start every game per ProFootball Refence, but played only 49% of Defensive snaps.

 

Ed Oliver in 2019 start 6 games and played 54% of the defensive snaps as a rookie.

 

Elam is currently listed as starting 6 of 11 games and playing in 59% of the Bills defensive snaps on the season.

 

As far as I can tell - Elam is right on pace with their last 2 first round picks in percentage of defensive snaps. 
 

Now with Tre back and giving 100% of the snaps on one side - I expect he will see a minor decrease, but it seems he is playing a lot more Man situations - especially against weaker running teams.

 

I would expect versus Chicago- you will see more Jackson as their WRs are not burners and Chicago can run, but against Cincinnati- I would expect more Elam with that WR room.

 

It seems to be all about matchups and I don’t think the Bills are doing anything different with him versus their recent #1 picks - get them around 50-60% of snaps and let them work in with the veterans.

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

Elam is definitely the correct answer to this question.

 

BUT...I would like to point out people are over exaggerating Tre "getting beat bad" multiple times.  Tre had a good game, and lets not forget we are talking about Hill and Waddle here who beat corners every week because they are exceptionally fast. 

 

End of the day, no CB is going to make every play, especially against talented WR's with elite speed.  People tend to focus way too much on a play or two rather than the whole game.  From start to finish, I was really impressed with what I saw out of Tre White and Elam.  

[NewEra]

15 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

Many reasons to argue, but not sure this is really true.

 

Rousseau last year did start every game per ProFootball Refence, but played only 49% of Defensive snaps.

 

Ed Oliver in 2019 start 6 games and played 54% of the defensive snaps as a rookie.

 

Elam is currently listed as starting 6 of 11 games and playing in 59% of the Bills defensive snaps on the season.

 

As far as I can tell - Elam is right on pace with their last 2 first round picks in percentage of defensive snaps. 
 

Now with Tre back and giving 100% of the snaps on one side - I expect he will see a minor decrease, but it seems he is playing a lot more Man situations - especially against weaker running teams.

 

I would expect versus Chicago- you will see more Jackson as their WRs are not burners and Chicago can run, but against Cincinnati- I would expect more Elam with that WR room.

 

It seems to be all about matchups and I don’t think the Bills are doing anything different with him versus their recent #1 picks - get them around 50-60% of snaps and let them work in with the veterans.

 

 

We play a rotation on the DL, I don’t have to tell you that-  if you think that’s a fair comparison, I would have to disagree.  mcdermott plays his starting corners 💯 of the game-  he plays his starting DL 60% of the game.  
 

To start the season, he was being platooned with a rookie 6th rd pick.  And that’s only because Tre was out.  The dane and Benfords injuries contributed to more snaps.  He was benched a game for a Dane (who had been the weakest link on the D) and a almost retired street FA.  McD said he has to do things the way they want.  He’s clearly not doing that and that’s why he wasn’t suited up.  

 

The other 1st rd picks not mentioned. 

tredavious started at corner as a rookie-  he played every snap. He played 98.6% of the snaps.

 

Edmunds started and played 91% of the snaps.

 

He’s not on par with our other 1st rd picks in terms of importance or trust.  
 

agree to disagree

 

 

 

[LABILLBACKER]

Neither Elam or Jackson can tackle to save their lives. Elam better in press man and Jackson in zone. It's a wash for me.

[Rochesterfan]

7 minutes ago, NewEra said:

We play a rotation on the DL, I don’t have to tell you that-  if you think that’s a fair comparison, I would have to disagree.  mcdermott plays his starting corners 💯 of the game-  he plays his starting DL 60% of the game.  
 

To start the season, he was being platooned with a rookie 6th rd pick.  And that’s only because Tre was out.  The dane and Benfords injuries contributed to more snaps.  He was benched a game for a Dane (who had been the weakest link on the D) and a almost retired street FA.  McD said he has to do things the way they want.  He’s clearly not doing that and that’s why he wasn’t suited up.  

 

The other 1st rd picks not mentioned. 

tredavious started at corner as a rookie-  he played every snap. He played 98.6% of the snaps.

 

Edmunds started and played 91% of the snaps.

 

He’s not on par with our other 1st rd picks in terms of importance or trust.  
 

agree to disagree

 

 

 

 

I totally agree - except even to start the year and through the last game - the Bills have been rotating the DB’s most of the season and then the after Tre came back - they still have been platooning the alternate CB.

 

I agree in the past they used 100% for each CB, but Elam is built and plays well in more man situations, Dane and Rhodes are better tacklers and zone players.

 

Therefore at the present time - what they have done in the past at DB is irrelevant because they had little Depth behind White and Wallace.

 

This year they have Jackson, Beneford, Elam, and now Rhodes and White outside and they have been rotating the first 3 off and on all year while they were healthy.  
 

I think that is a fundamental change to the defensive approach to help keep teams from getting tendencies over and over within a game.  You have seen this guy for a few snaps over 2 series - Bam now a different player is covering you while the first guy sits and studies.

 

I think they are playing it very similar to the DL.  
 

Plus your original statement was:

 

“Every Bills first round picks has started the majority, if not all, of their rookie year since McD has arrived.  Except Elam”

 

I totally agree that White, Allen, and Edmunds all started and played a majority at a time the team was growing.  I also believe the 2019 and 2021 1st rounds picks do not fit your quote because the DLine rotates and the Bills had much more depth than early on.

 

I get what you are saying and I just don’t think it has any reflection on Elam.

 

 

[947]

One problem I see with Dane, is sometimes he's in good position to make a play on the ball but just starts tackling the receiver as the ball arrives, as if conceding the catch. I was always taught to wrap the body with the far arm & use the near arm to try & knock the ball away, that way you're still in position to tackle if he still catches it. Would love too see our guys do this with more consistency, I find myself yelling "go for the ball" way too often in the past few weeks.

[MAJBobby]

Elam by MILES AND MILES