How did Allen not dominate in college?

[Mikie2times]

He was still very good in college. I mean that throw he made in his bowl game on the post route. It was one even now, perhaps he’s the only player on earth can make. Wyoming as a program has a poorly developed passing game. They’re certainly run first. Josh still didn’t grow into his form as a runner until later on. 
 

 

[buffaloboyinATL]

6 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

1 - seriously? Obviously the talent level he played with is different in Buffalo but the defensive talent level he plays against is better too. As someone who was skeptical of the pick, the idea that the guy who wasn’t that good in the MWC becoming a better player in the nfl melted my brain.

 

2 - can you think of a player that improved this much from college to the nfl? Brady seems obvious but he actually was better in college than people remember. 
 

 

I can understand how he didn't dominate, because he hadn't quite put it all together yet. What I can't understand, is how he was not more highly recruited by the major colleges.  He had all, or most of the tools already, and you would think these coaches would have seen the potential, and want to develop it. There was a great interview with Chris Simms a few weeks ago, where Josh credits his accuracy improvements and consistency, to changing his throwing motion to "rotational", instead of over the top.  He said that now, instead of adjusting his release point to throw higher or lower, he only has to adjust his arm angle, and keep a consistent release point.

 

My point being, some Head coach, or QB coach, or, scout or Coordinator, should have seen all that potential, and offered him a scholarship.  Of course, I am happy that it turned out the way it did, because if he did dominate at a major college program, we never would have been able to draft him. He would have gone #1 overall.  

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by buffaloboyinATL

[Motorin']

21 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Accuracy is so very critical and it was a total gamble and counter to conventional wisdom that the inaccuracy was repairable to even an NFL level, much less elite nfl level where he is now. 
 

The really scary part for the rest of the NFL is he is still getting better. 

 

 

 

Ever see this? These guys were arguing (and did testing which proved true) that Josh was incredibly accurate prior to his rookie season:

 

 

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

1 hour ago, Albany,n.y. said:

He was basically QBing a 2-14 team, yet his record as a starter was 5-6 and one of those loses was a game Peterman came in & lost for the Bills.

 

And a dropped TD by Charles Clay against Miami in the waning moments.

[K-9]

20 minutes ago, buffaloboyinATL said:

I can understand how he didn't dominate, because he hadn't quite put it all together yet. What I can't understand, is how he was not more highly recruited by the major colleges.  He had all, or most of the tools already, and you would think these coaches would have seen the potential, and want to develop it. There was a great interview with Chris Simms a few weeks ago, where Josh credits his accuracy improvements and consistency, to changing his throwing motion to "rotational", instead of over the top.  He said that now, instead of adjusting his release point to throw higher or lower, he only has to adjust his arm angle, and keep a consistent release point.

 

My point being, some Head coach, or QB coach, or, scout or Coordinator, should have seen all that potential, and offered him a scholarship.  Of course, I am happy that it turned out the way it did, because if he did dominate at a major college program, we never would have been able to draft him. He would have gone #1 overall.  

 

He was a skinny, 6’3” high school QB from a small school that played lower level competition who didn’t attend elite QB camps since middle school. Those players simply don’t attract much attention. Especially in CA. It’s no surprise he wasn’t recruited by any D-1 school, let alone a power 5 school. 

[Buffalo716]

8 minutes ago, K-9 said:

He was a skinny, 6’3” high school QB from a small school that played lower level competition who didn’t attend elite QB camps since middle school. Those players simply don’t attract much attention. Especially in CA. It’s no surprise he wasn’t recruited by any D-1 school, let alone a power 5 school. 

It was definitely not going to the California QB camp circuit and playing low level ball 

 

Tons of 6’3 180 pound high school quarterbacks get scholarships

 

it was everything else against him

Edited October 20, 2022 by Buffalo716

[Buffalo716]

30 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

It was definitely not going to the California QB camp circuit and playing low level ball 

 

Tons of 6’3 180 pound high school quarterbacks get scholarships

 

it was everything else against him

https://247sports.com/Player/Malachi-Nelson-46086657/
 

https://247sports.com/Player/Jaden-Rashada-46085708/
 

https://247sports.com/Player/Avery-Johnson-46111693/
 

3 of the top 12 QB recruits in the country are under 185 lbs or less and 6’3 or 6’4

 

It’s not a super uncommon size for high schoolers

 

What Held Josh back was that there was never a division one football player from firebaugh And he didn’t go to the quarterback camps like you said and i agreed with

he was playing super small school ball with not great size yet 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Buffalo716

[K-9]

22 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

It was definitely not going to the California QB camp circuit and playing low level ball 

 

Tons of 6’3 180 pound high school quarterbacks get scholarships

 

it was everything else against him

Josh himself has alluded to his small stature in high school as well as playing for at a small school as among the reasons he suspects he wasn’t recruited.  Yes, lots of 6’3” prospects get recruited, but not from smaller high schools with smaller programs playing lesser competition. Especially in huge football states like CA. 
 

[Mango]

Asking how he didn't DOMINATE is different than asking how did he end up having to recruit himself. 

The answer is he wasn't all that good. I know some posters here always "knew" he was the guy. But you can't "know" that one guy is going to buck every single historical trend to ever exist. That is just homerism. There were people who thought EJ, Trent, JP, etc. were going to "break all the rules" too. 

Josh didn't dominate college ball because he wasn't good enough. 

The Bills gambled on his work ethic and measurables in a sport filled with guys with the elitist work ethic and measurables on the planet. It all worked out because all of the stars aligned. 

[BearNorth]

1 hour ago, Albany,n.y. said:

Mel Kiper said the same thing on the ESPN broadcast of the 2018 draft, comparing him with Randy Johnson.  It starts around the 1:10 mark: 

 

Another famous late blooming draft choice that took a few years to develop was Sandy Koufax, he could always throw the heat, but control was not his strong suit.

 

He finally figured it out at age 26 and had five dominating seasons before his arm fell off.

 

His personal catcher, Norm Sherry, did a lot for his development, and I think Diggs is Allen's Norm Sherry.

[K-9]

3 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

https://247sports.com/Player/Malachi-Nelson-46086657/
 

https://247sports.com/Player/Jaden-Rashada-46085708/
 

https://247sports.com/Player/Avery-Johnson-46111693/
 

3 of the top 12 QB recruits in the country are under 185 lbs or less and 6’3 or 6’4

 

It’s not a super uncommon size for high schoolers

 

What Held Josh back was that there was never a division one football player from firebaugh And he didn’t go to the quarterback camps like you said and i agreed with

 

You seem hung up on the stature as the only point in my argument and you’re making an unfair comparison here. For instance, Los Alamitos high school has over 3,000 students compared to just over 600 for Firebaugh. It’s a football powerhouse by comparison. Same with Pittsburg High school in CA. And while Maize high school is smaller, it still has nearly twice as man students as Firebaugh and is a highly ranked program in Kansas.
 

So while all three of your examples are similar in size, none of them play for obscure little high school programs in their state. If any of them played for Firebaugh, would they have garnered the same interest? I doubt it.

 

[Buffalo716]

2 minutes ago, K-9 said:

You seem hung up on the stature as the only point in my argument and you’re making an unfair comparison here. For instance, Los Alamitos high school has over 3,000 students compared to just over 600 for Firebaugh. It’s a football powerhouse by comparison. Same with Pittsburg High school in CA. And while Maize high school is smaller, it still has nearly twice as man students as Firebaugh and is a highly ranked program in Kansas.
 

So while all three of your examples are similar in size, none of them play for obscure little high school programs in their state. If any of them played for Firebaugh, would they have garnered the same interest? I doubt it.

 

You emoji disagreed with my post before you explained what you disagreed with

 

And I also agree with the other two points of your post… So I was pretty confused what you were disagreeing with

 

The size was the only thing left

 

Because I basically agreed with you

Edited October 20, 2022 by Buffalo716

[K-9]

12 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

You emoji disagreed with my post before you explained what you disagreed with

 

And I also agree with the other two points of your post… So I was pretty confused what you were disagreeing with

 

The size was the only thing left

 

Because I basically agreed with you

😄 Thanks for the clarification and apologies for any confusion. Now that we are in agreement, I’ve removed the disagreement emoji. 

[BigDingus]

Reality is he just was too raw, didn't have strong coaching, & simply wasn't good enough yet.

 

I know people like to act like he was simply DESTINED to be great no matter what, but I think that's a huge disservice to Josh.

 

The amount of time & effort he dedicated to improving his play cannot be understated. People love to focus on the plays he can make, but remember he also improved dramatically in his ability to identify & dissect defenses, audible out of plays, the pre/post snap reads, his pocket awareness, etc. etc. etc.

 

That stuff wasn't there in college. He's could have all the physical tools in the world, but what's between the ears matters even more (see: Tom Brady). That's why I attribute Allen's success almost entirely on his own shoulders. He put in the work to shore up those issues & maximize his strengths, therefore he deserves the bulk of the credit.  

Edited October 20, 2022 by BigDingus

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

2 hours ago, Motorin' said:

 

Ever see this? These guys were arguing (and did testing which proved true) that Josh was incredibly accurate prior to his rookie season:

 

 

 

and here is Josh himself explaining reworking his entire throwing motion to fix his accuracy.. people can revise whatever they want to, but I know what we saw then and what we see now.  

 

https://heavy.com/sports/buffalo-bills/josh-allen-adjusts-his-mechanics/
 

[Buffalo716]

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

😄 Thanks for the clarification and apologies for any confusion. Now that we are in agreement, I’ve removed the disagreement emoji. 

All good man no worries! 
 

josh certainly is perhaps the best QB story of All time … it’s TB12 on steroids … Which coincidently Tom Brady may be On

Edited October 20, 2022 by Buffalo716

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

9 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

1 - seriously? Obviously the talent level he played with is different in Buffalo but the defensive talent level he plays against is better too. As someone who was skeptical of the pick, the idea that the guy who wasn’t that good in the MWC becoming a better player in the nfl melted my brain.

 

2 - can you think of a player that improved this much from college to the nfl? Brady seems obvious but he actually was better in college than people remember. 
 

 

Brady - hands down. His draft slot tells you he projected as a back up to practice squad guy. 
 

how about Mahommes and Rodgers? 
 

 

[LanderPoke]

Well, as a Wyoming die hard and one who has watched every single snap Josh has taken, I will say that the simplest answer is he wasn't nearly as good in college as he is in the pros. His improvement has surprised even me, maybe the biggest JA homer outside of his family and friends. His rise and improvement in the accuracy department are probably unprecedented. But deep down I knew that Josh would be at least an above average NFL QB if not Pro Bowler because of his freaking size, athleticism, work ethic, character and his world class arm. Those things were always there. I mean, he may have the best arm on planet earth. I have to admit that his ascension to the top two of NFL QBs has taken me by surprise. I knew he'd be good, but not this good.

 

Aside from the fact that he has just gotten a lot better, the other biggest contributing factor of why he didn't dominate in college is the fact that he had to play for one of the most regressive coaching staffs in America from an offensive standpoint. Coach Craig Bohl would constantly talk about "getting rid of his gunslinger mentality" and similar garbage. Wyoming is possibly the most predictable offense in the country at any level. There is no imagination, no creativity, no nothing. Never any in game adjustments. If it works great, if not we're *****. Most of the yards JA passed for was on scrambles, because the original plays never worked. Coach Bohl all but turned JA into a fullback during the Border War against CSU in 2017. If you guys want to watch the grittiest ***** performance ever by a QB, go watch that game.

 

A tertiary factor is talent level. Josh actually had a damn good 2016 season. UW (Wyoming) had a damn good season by our standards. Made the conference championship game and were division champs. Josh had Gentry, Jacob Hollister, a couple other good receivers and Brian Hill. In 2017 gone were Gentry, Hollister, Hill and Mulhardt, his other good receiver. There was no one to throw to. We sucked, plain and simple at the skill positions. It was very, very unfortunate. HOWEVER, if you've got Josh ***** Allen you'd think that you could engineer some sort of competent offense.  Bohl is just a ***** offensive head coach. So coaching and talent held him back

Edited October 20, 2022 by LanderPoke

[C.Biscuit97]

3 hours ago, Albany,n.y. said:

Mel Kiper said the same thing on the ESPN broadcast of the 2018 draft, comparing him with Randy Johnson.  It starts around the 1:10 mark: 

 

Mel Kiper is wrong a ton though. I think he said he would retire if Jimmy clausen didn’t become a star qb. 

3 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Accuracy is so very critical and it was a total gamble and counter to conventional wisdom that the inaccuracy was repairable to even an NFL level, much less elite nfl level where he is now. 
 

The really scary part for the rest of the NFL is he is still getting better. 

 

 

That’s the thing. College stats mean nothing but a guy completing under 69% of his passes in college now is kinda crazy. 
 

I just can’t believe the Buffalo Bills got this mold of talented clay and turned him into this. I still can’t believe it. 

[BrownNgold]

5 minutes ago, LanderPoke said:

Well, as a Wyoming die hard and one who has watched every single snap Josh has taken, I will say that the simplest answer is he wasn't nearly as good in college as he is in the pros. His improvement has surprised even me, maybe the biggest JA homer outside of his family and friends. His rise and improvement in the accuracy department are probably unprecedented. But deep down I knew that Josh would be at least an above average NFL QB if not Pro Bowler because of his freaking size, athletics and his world class arm. Those things were always there. I mean, he may have the best are on planet earth. I have to admit that his ascension to the top two of NFL QBs has taken me by surprise. I knew he'd be good, but not this good.

 

Aside from the fact that he has just gotten a lot better, the other biggest contributing factor of why he didn't dominate in college is the fact that he had to play for one of the most regressive coaching staffs in America from an offensive standpoint. Coach Craig Bohl would constantly talk about "getting rid of his gunslinger mentality" and similar garbage. Wyoming is possibly the most predictable offense in the country at any level. There is no imagination, no creativity, no nothing. Never any in game adjustments. If it works great, if not we're *****. Most of the yards JA passed for was on scrambles, because the original plays never worked. Coach Bohl all but turned JA into a fullback during the Border War against CSU in 2017. If you guys want to watch the grittiest ***** performance ever by a QB, go watch that game.

 

A tertiary factor is talent level. Josh actually had a damn good 2016 season. UW (Wyoming) had a damn good season by our standards. Made the conference championship game and were division champs. Josh had Gentry, Jacob Hollister, a couple other good receivers and Brian Hill. In 2017 gone were Gentry, Hollister, Hill and Mulhardt, his other good receiver. There was no one to throw to. We sucked, plain and simple at the skill positions. It was very, very unfortunate. HOWEVER, if you've got Josh ***** Allen you'd think that you could engineer some sort of competent offense.  Bohl is just a ***** offensive head coach. So coaching and talent held him back

Losing Chase at center didn't help either, but everything you mentioned was spot on

[C.Biscuit97]

2 hours ago, K-9 said:

He was a skinny, 6’3” high school QB from a small school that played lower level competition who didn’t attend elite QB camps since middle school. Those players simply don’t attract much attention. Especially in CA. It’s no surprise he wasn’t recruited by any D-1 school, let alone a power 5 school. 

This part sounds like Rodgers 

[NoHuddleKelly12]

10 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

Not even looking at the passing stats college vs. pros, the more surprising thing to me is Allen actually seems more dangerous as a runner at the NFL level than he was at the college level. That is something that is pretty rare, I think. 

Allen said on KB’s Basement this week, that his 1st ever hurdle was already in juco! So that would’ve been Reedley. But I don’t remember any pre-draft discussion on that? 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Mel Kiper is wrong a ton though. I think he said he would retire if Jimmy clausen didn’t become a star qb. 

That’s the thing. College stats mean nothing but a guy completing under 69% of his passes in college now is kinda crazy. 
 

I just can’t believe the Buffalo Bills got this mold of talented clay and turned him into this. I still can’t believe it. 

its quite literally unbelievable… the whole journey is improbable… right down to small town farm kid that embraces Buffalo as a community, the fools gold with baker and Sam allowing him to fall…. The maneuvering with Denver (and I’m sure elway is beside himself for not snatching him up) …. Literally- the runner he is. That’s a complete surprise ..  All of it. 

 

that’s why the retrospective that you could always see this is where he’d be all along is utter nonsense and dismisses how Amazing and improbable this has been. 

[McBean]

11 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

1 - seriously? Obviously the talent level he played with is different in Buffalo but the defensive talent level he plays against is better too. As someone who was skeptical of the pick, the idea that the guy who wasn’t that good in the MWC becoming a better player in the nfl melted my brain.

 

2 - can you think of a player that improved this much from college to the nfl? Brady seems obvious but he actually was better in college than people remember. 
 

 

I don’t know of a prospect that has developed as much as Josh Allen.

 

I’ve never been more wrong about something in my entire life and God do I love it.

 

My favorite NFL player of all time already. 
 

 

9 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

its quite literally unbelievable… the whole journey is improbable… right down to small town farm kid that embraces Buffalo as a community, the fools gold with baker and Sam allowing him to fall…. The maneuvering with Denver (and I’m sure elway is beside himself for not snatching him up) …. Literally- the runner he is. That’s a complete surprise ..  All of it. 

 

that’s why the retrospective that you could always see this is where he’d be all along is utter nonsense and dismisses how Amazing and improbable this has been. 

Well said. 
 

Amazing and improbable sums it up perfectly .

[Joe Ferguson forever]

We wouldn't have got him otherwise.  Josh Rosen anyone?

[machine gun kelly]

11 hours ago, Motorin' said:

 

No, he had issues with his mechanics. Namely, he didn't have any. 

 

In reality, the man made throws in WY that many pro-bowl qbs in NFL history would never be able to make. 

 

Meaning, sometimes he made deadly accurate throws at an elite level. Those are the throws that people with accuracy issues never make. He was guilty of missing easy lay ups because he didn't have any kind of coaching to teach him how to be consistent with his mechanics.

As always Mororin, we’ll written and right on the $.  I would add his last year a number of his targets went onto the nfl, and he was left with crap to work with so hence, Super Sugar Allen with that drive to win at all costs.

 

He had the clay for success, but was going to be a work in progress.  As much as Kiper can be annoying, he called it on Josh regrading the draft, before he was drafted.  He his on his take for Josh and he called it on Josh would end up being the best drafted QB that year, and dam if he was right.  Lamar is not in the same stratosphere as JA17. That doesn’t mean I’m slamming Lamar as he has grown a great deal in the last 5 years.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

10 hours ago, RobbRiddick said:

From year 1 I've said he reminds me of the love child of favre and elway, without the horse face and tendencies to steal money from the poor of course.

He always had an arm comparable to Elway. I knew he could make all the throws that is why he was my #1. Full disclosure Rosen was my#2.

I didn't think he would run as well as Elway did. Elway was more speed but still big enough to take a pounding. Josh is more power but just enough top end speed to run away from most DL and linebackers.  Insane combo. 

[Orlando Tim]

12 hours ago, Talley56 said:

He didn't want to draw too much attention to himself and end up getting drafted first overall by the winless Browns.

I was trying to come up with something witty but this is better 

[Andy1]

Josh was just a late bloomer who did not get great coaching to develop his skills in college. In college he was constantly under pressure in the pocket. Operating in that environment was actually great training for the nfl as he learned how to evade and escape pressure. He became comfortable operating in chaos. I think that’s a big part of what makes him great. He refined his accuracy with Jordan Palmer but he has incredible throws on his college tape, they just weren’t consistent.

[RocCityRoller]

12 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

He gets one more year to prove it and it may be time to move on. Maybe kick the tires on Andy Dalton. 

This was the jynx Dalton felt Thursday Night

[Whkfc]

12 hours ago, dollars 2 donuts said:

He had accuracy issues.

 

Please don't underestimate the importance of completion percentage at all levels. 

 

It matters.  It goes with you wherever you go.

 

A permanent football scar whose shame never washes off or changes.

 

 

 

 

I have accuracy issues. My wife tells me everytime she cleans the bathroom

[Joe Ferguson forever]

10 minutes ago, Whkfc said:

I have accuracy issues. My wife tells me everytime she cleans the bathroom

mine says "and you have a directional device..."

[Nihilarian]

14 hours ago, PetermansRedemption said:

That Wyoming team was awful. The team was Josh Allen. He was under immediate pressure nearly all the time. If he played for Alabama, it would have been a different story. He was the team in Wyoming. 

And he basically played with a bunch of nobody's and they still made it to bowl games.

 

In his final year it at Wyoming every player on offense that had touched the ball the previous season was gone. 

 

The simple fact is that his 56% accuracy in college kept him from being drafted by the Browns, Jets, Broncos, NY Giants...to Bills fans great joy...well, at least after a season or two!!

 

 

[Thurman#1]

15 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

1 - seriously? Obviously the talent level he played with is different in Buffalo but the defensive talent level he plays against is better too. As someone who was skeptical of the pick, the idea that the guy who wasn’t that good in the MWC becoming a better player in the nfl melted my brain.

 

2 - can you think of a player that improved this much from college to the nfl? Brady seems obvious but he actually was better in college than people remember. 
 

 

 

 

He was absolutely excellent in college. Look at the winning percentage of that team and compare the win rates when he was in and when he was out. There's a massive difference.

 

He was dominant. He wasn't dominant in a way that convinced everyone that his dominance would carry over to the NFL.

[Dr.Sack]

Tom Brady was meh at Michigan and got to hold Bob Grease’s sons jock for 2 seasons. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Happens a lot in college. Travis Kelce might be the greatest TE in NFL history but his best college season was 45 catches. 59 career college catches.

[K-9]

9 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

And he basically played with a bunch of nobody's and they still made it to bowl games.

 

In his final year it at Wyoming every player on offense that had touched the ball the previous season was gone. 

 

The simple fact is that his 56% accuracy in college kept him from being drafted by the Browns, Jets, Broncos, NY Giants...to Bills fans great joy...well, at least after a season or two!!

 

 

Leading up to that draft there were stories about Allen’s recall abilities and how he was wowing teams on the white board. But we hear these things about guys every year it seems so we don’t give it much thought. But a couple months ago Tasker was relaying a story Daboll told him about Josh while at the combine. Daboll said that there were about twenty Bills’ staff members in the room when Josh came in for his combine interview. All of them introduced themselves to Allen and then it was 15 minutes of breaking down plays on the whiteboard along with some chit chat, etc. At the end of the meeting, Daboll asked Josh to recall as many names of the people he met when he first walked in and Allen remembered them all. Daboll said he’d never seen anything like that. I was amazed hearing that. But it explains so much about why Allen has developed as a QB like he has. 

[LanderPoke]

On 10/20/2022 at 8:03 AM, eball said:

 

 

C -- Josh got hurt in his first game at college (shoulder)

 

 

 

It was the collar bone

[Albany,n.y.]

15 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Mel Kiper is wrong a ton though. I think he said he would retire if Jimmy clausen didn’t become a star qb. 

 

Kiper actually did retire after Clausen didn't become a star.  Clausen lasted through the 2013 season with Carolina before moving on to Chicago.  Kiper never printed another draft report book after the 2013 edition.  In that final report his top 2 QBs were 1) Geno Smith and 2) Matt Barkley.  He had EJ 6th.  It may have taken 9 years, but Kiper did get the 2013 QB class as correct as could be.  NO other QB but those 2 is still in the league.  In retrospect, Kiper did a better job than Buddy Nix and his assistant at the time, Doug Whaley.  

[PatsFanNH]

On 10/20/2022 at 9:16 AM, C.Biscuit97 said:

1 - seriously? Obviously the talent level he played with is different in Buffalo but the defensive talent level he plays against is better too. As someone who was skeptical of the pick, the idea that the guy who wasn’t that good in the MWC becoming a better player in the nfl melted my brain.

 

2 - can you think of a player that improved this much from college to the nfl? Brady seems obvious but he actually was better in college than people remember. 
 

 

Maybe give your coaching staff a bit of credit. They obviously worked with him to improve his accuracy.. outside of that don’t for a second believe that Allen read those headline and didn’t want stick it into their face just how good he would be..  def drive and good coaching makes a damn lot of difference..