Ethan in Cleveland Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 Its scheme and design. It seems they are intent on going for it on 4th down so they are treating 3rd and 1 like any other down and distance. Therefore they are in shotgun and running plays that are not necessarily designed to pick up 1 yard. That is all fine and cute when it is 70 degrees out. But that may not work in December and January. Time to go heavy, blow some guys off the ball and let your RB do their job. If its only a few inches it should be a quick snap and QB sneak every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 6 minutes ago, TheWeatherMan said: QB sneak the GD ball. There is no excuse as to why this offense can’t execute a sneak with the biggest bad a$$ QB to ever play the game. Don’t give me the bs o-line sux on short yardage crap, the biggest vag of a QB to ever play the game had no problem picking up the first or a TD on sneaks playing behind crappy olines. Playing 3rd/4th and inches out of the shotgun is as dumb as it gets. Those OLines were not crappy. Mankins, Koppen, Light, Andruzzi, Solder, Connolly, just off the top of my head. They were consistently a FORCE in the middle that we do not have. And as I noted above, Defenses play our short yardage situations differently than against other teams. They sell out to stop Josh from picking up the sneak, as a hopeful badge of honor. I cant defend the shotgun tho. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FilthyBeast Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 It's still early in the season, but we did just face the best DT in the NFL last week in Aaron Donald and another top 10 one in Jeffrey Simmons. I think that may have a bit more to do with the situation, in addition to wasting snaps on Zack Moss. If I hear one more person say he's a power/physical back my head might explode. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMM Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 As much as do want to run Josh less, I think on these downs your best chance to make the first down is have him keep it, either sneak over guard or run the RPO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, 716er said: When it comes to short yardage... They struggle when they hand it to Moss. They don't struggle when they hand it to Singletary. Singletary converts at a 61.9% clip on runs 3rd/4th down and 3 or less out of 21 attempts. Moss converts at a 60% clip, same criteria on 20 carries. Virtually identical results. Your statement is demonstrably proven false. Just now, Big Turk said: Singletary converts at a 61.9% clip on runs 3rd/4th down and 3 or less out of 21 attempts. Moss converts at a 60% clip, same criteria. Virtually identical results. Your statement is demonstrably proven false. Moss: Edited September 20, 2022 by Big Turk 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
716er Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 Just now, Big Turk said: Singletary converts at a 61.9% clip on runs 3rd/4th down and 3 or less out of 21 attempts. Moss converts at a 60% clip, same criteria. Virtually identical results. Your statement is demonstrably proven false. Interesting. What about on 3rd or 4th and 1 or less? FYI I cannot see your image. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, 716er said: Interesting. What about on 3rd or 4th and 1 or less? FYI I cannot see your image. Moss, 13 carries, 1st down 53.8% Singletary, 12 carries, 1st down 75%. Singletary is BETTER at converting than Moss in those situations, but Moss still converts more than half the time. I wonder if Moss has more "power" runs versus Singletary where they are more spread out, meaning it's easier to key on Moss and makes it more likely the D has bigger bodies in to stuff the run in close. Edited September 20, 2022 by Big Turk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
716er Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 Just now, Big Turk said: Moss, 13 carries, 1st down 53.8% Singletary, 12 carries, 1st down 75%. Singletary is BETTER at converting than Moss in those situations, but Moss still converts more than half the time. Thanks for checking that. I think 22.2% is a significant difference and a big enough one where Devin should be getting a majority of the 3rd and 1 carries. Cheers Okay one more question if you've got the time... what is the conversion rate on a 3rd and 1 or less on average for an NFL RB? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRH Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 55 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: We spent 3 picks within the first 3 rounds in 3 years lol those are 3 high picks Facts are annoying, aren't they? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 (edited) 14 minutes ago, 716er said: Thanks for checking that. I think 22.2% is a significant difference and a big enough one where Devin should be getting a majority of the 3rd and 1 carries. Cheers I think we need more context. I don't remember seeing Singletary used in power sets with big personnel in very much which would give him a distinct advantage in those situations because our OLine is not good at power run blocking against heavy fronts. But that begs the question...why do they continue using big on big personnel when they are not very good at it and why not just line up and spread them out then try and run? Only thing I can think of is they have pass plays they run out of those heavy personnel sets that work really well(like Davis first TD versus the Rams) and they really like and if they only pass out of those formations it would become easier to defend since the D would know a pass was coming and they run to keep teams honest. Edited September 20, 2022 by Big Turk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 (edited) Bills should try Gilliam as a short yardage RB. If not, Singletary is the guy I’m handing the football to on this offense. Ive been pounding the table to eliminate Moss from the offense for a couple years now. He’s not a good RB. Edited September 20, 2022 by Buffalo_Stampede 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 I actually think we should go 3-4 wide to spread out the defense. It seems like for years we don't get push up front. Give Allen space and give him the option of throwing it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herc11 Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 (edited) They should stop with this nonsense that Moss is a power back. He might of been in college where guys are smaller, but in the NFL he isn't big or powerful enough to be utilized that way. Edited September 20, 2022 by Herc11 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 (edited) 17 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said: It's still early in the season, but we did just face the best DT in the NFL last week in Aaron Donald and another top 10 one in Jeffrey Simmons. I think that may have a bit more to do with the situation, in addition to wasting snaps on Zack Moss. If I hear one more person say he's a power/physical back my head might explode. He is a physical back, but it doesn't matter when a DLineman is 3 yards deep in your backfield before he gets the handoff. Nobody is getting a first down in that situation. Our power run blocking isn't good and hasn't been good for a long time. Bills insist on using power when they should just let them run against a lighter box. Edited September 20, 2022 by Big Turk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 4 minutes ago, Big Turk said: I think we need more context. I don't remember seeing Singletary used in power sets with big personnel in very much which would give him a distinct advantage in those situations because our OLine is not good at power run blocking against heavy fronts. But that begs the question...why do they continue using big on big personnel when they are not very good at it and why not just line up and spread them out then try and run? This ^^ Fun Fact. Josh Allen has a 154.9 Pass rating on 3rd down this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Allen2Diggs said: They keep lining up in a shotgun formation on short yardage for some reason. Just line up in an I formation with Gilliam and Singletary and either give it to Devin or have Josh sneak. They're just overthinking it. Kelly led Bills used to be tremendous running out of the shotgun, these Bills teams not so much...play usually gets blown up in the backfield like last night when Singletary had a 5 yard loss. Sometimes I think they just get bored and like challenging themselves by putting themselves in bad situations just to see if they can pick up the first down. Josh is like "OK, let's run a play we know likely isn't going to work and will lose yardage so I can see if I can still pick up the first down anyway." Edited September 20, 2022 by Big Turk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herc11 Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 40 minutes ago, TheWeatherMan said: QB sneak the GD ball. There is no excuse as to why this offense can’t execute a sneak with the biggest bad a$$ QB to ever play the game. Don’t give me the bs o-line sux on short yardage crap, the biggest vag of a QB to ever play the game had no problem picking up the first or a TD on sneaks playing behind crappy olines. Playing 3rd/4th and inches out of the shotgun is as dumb as it gets. They did have good O-lines. But IMO the reason Brady was so successful with those conversions wasn't necessary the line. Brady was always on top of that situation and they would get to the line immediately and quick snap while the defense was still scrambling to set up. He rarely allowed the defense enough time to get set correctly. 14 minutes ago, Big Turk said: He is a physical back, but it doesn't matter when a DLineman is 3 yards deep in your backfield before he gets the handoff. Nobody is getting a first down in that situation. Our power run blocking isn't good and hasn't been good for a long time. Bills insist on using power when they should just let them run against a lighter box. He's only physical because he will lower his shoulder to try and run a defender over before trying to juke them. As I said before, this worked in college with smaller defenders. I can't recall a single run he has made in the NFL where he has run anyone over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HardyBoy Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 1 hour ago, UConn James said: How about giving Jordan Philips the carry ala Refrigerator Perry? Sorry, that haiku thread is getting to me. That would be "ala Fridge Perry" to be 5 syllables! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draconator Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 33 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said: in addition to wasting snaps on Zack Moss. If I hear one more person say he's a power/physical back my head might explode. Zack Moss is a powerful, physical back. Now that your head has exploded, maybe you'll stop posting. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLTbills Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 Well we scored a touchdown last week on 3rd and 1, and scored a touchdown this week on 4th and 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 2 hours ago, Einstein said: As great as this team is, the offense struggles in short yardage situations. The Bills were dead-last in the NFL last season on 3rd and 1. And they were 0-4 on 3rd or 4th and 1 last night. Question: Why do you think the Bills struggle in this area and what specifically do you feel that they can do to improve this facet of their offense? Edit: A poster pointed out that we did actually convert one 4th and 1 last night. Sorry about the incorrectness above. . This is a real problem and I really do not understand what is behind it. Physicality is one issue as the Bills just seem to be tentative in these short yardage situations. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generic_Bills_Fan Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 2 hours ago, Einstein said: This is not an excuse for not being able to move the ball on 3rd and 4th and 1. Exactly. I mean I wouldn’t call it an ‘excuse’ per se…but there’s certainly many easier teams to pick up a tough yard against so i don’t think it’s cause for alarm yet but maybe that’s just me. We lost Mitch Morse for a few of those early 3rd and shorts against a really tough front 7 and later in the game when we had a comfortable lead we weren’t going to risk Josh’s health and run the designed qb run plays that worked well a week earlier one of the third/fourth and shorts was a rookie receiver just not knowing his responsibility and completely whiffing on a block Not sure how us picking up 3rd and shorts at a 100% clip the week previous isn’t relevant though…you’d have to explain that to me. The only third down we missed in that one was a third and 5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 Basic football in short yardage. O line along with TE and WR have to set the table for the RB to hit the hole. I saw missed blocks that made the runs unsuccessful. It will be resolved soon. Coaches live for things to fix. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
without a drought Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 The sooner everyone realizes that Moss is a backup all around back and not a short yardage specialist, the sooner they will get better at short yardage plays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generic_Bills_Fan Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, FilthyBeast said: It's still early in the season, but we did just face the best DT in the NFL last week in Aaron Donald and another top 10 one in Jeffrey Simmons. I think that may have a bit more to do with the situation, in addition to wasting snaps on Zack Moss. If I hear one more person say he's a power/physical back my head might explode. Also we were great on third down last week…why are people jumping a whole calendar year to last year to establish this narrative and skipping the other game we played this season 😂 we were 9/10 on third down against the rams and the one we missed was a medium yardage situation. That’s the big reason why the sloppy turnovers didn’t hurt us so bad we were unstoppable on third down 3 minutes ago, without a drought said: The sooner everyone realizes that Moss is a backup all around back and not a short yardage specialist, the sooner they will get better at short yardage plays. Not to say moss is good but I don’t think singletary would’ve picked up any of those firsts last night either…there were no running lanes. Moss finds his way into the lineup because he’s a good pass blocker Edited September 20, 2022 by Generic_Bills_Fan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 2 hours ago, FilthyBeast said: It's still early in the season, but we did just face the best DT in the NFL last week in Aaron Donald and another top 10 one in Jeffrey Simmons. I think that may have a bit more to do with the situation, in addition to wasting snaps on Zack Moss. If I hear one more person say he's a power/physical back my head might explode. Zack Moss is a power/physical back. Did it work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 3 hours ago, Einstein said: As great as this team is, the offense struggles in short yardage situations. The Bills were dead-last in the NFL last season on 3rd and 1. And they were 0-4 on 3rd or 4th and 1 last night. Question: Why do you think the Bills struggle in this area and what specifically do you feel that they can do to improve this facet of their offense? Edit: A poster pointed out that we did actually convert one 4th and 1 last night. Sorry about the incorrectness above. . Bills should just go long every play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddie's Dead Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 Running Zack Moss instead of Motor Singletary. Go with Motor, problem solved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
without a drought Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 2 minutes ago, Dr. Who said: Zack Moss is a power/physical back. Did it work? Maybe. He didn't respond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 (edited) 48 minutes ago, BuffaloBill said: This is a real problem and I really do not understand what is behind it. Physicality is one issue as the Bills just seem to be tentative in these short yardage situations. Ken Dorsey Games as OC 2 Just saying 72 to 17 Edited September 20, 2022 by SlimShady'sSpaceForce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddyjj Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 2 minutes ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said: Ken Dorsey Games as OC 2 Just saying 74 to 17 Technically Dorsey as OC responsible for 65 points. Milano had a pick 6 by D. Bills have scored 72 overall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clark Rotary Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 1 hour ago, BuffaloBill said: This is a real problem and I really do not understand what is behind it. Physicality is one issue as the Bills just seem to be tentative in these short yardage situations. I agree, it's a thing. I feel like we need to develop that aggravatingly boring QB sneak that NE did for years with Brady - snap, dive 3.5 feet into a small gap and it's over before the defense can really react. But that said I'm not filing a formal complaint - we've got only high class problems at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterpan Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 4 hours ago, WotAGuy said: Put Jordan Philips in at guard and run a sneak behind him. The Bills O line is terrible in short yardage situations. Put him at fullback!!!! No one would stop Phillips with how amped he gets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Murdock Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 Actually, I'm concerned about the running game in general. RB's have gotten off to another slow start, and could be an exploited Achilles heal as the season goes on. The Bills have been impressive obviously, but the running game has not. Singletary is average at best. Moss belongs on somebody's practice squad, or cooking Fries. No idea what Cook can do. Maybe this is why our 3rd and ones are horrid? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 1 hour ago, freddyjj said: Technically Dorsey as OC responsible for 65 points. Milano had a pick 6 by D. Bills have scored 72 overall. killjoy 😝 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikie2times Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 We almost give up on spreading teams out and throwing the ball or allowing Josh to be Josh. It's all predesigned to get one yard. Run your offense. History has shown the odds of us failing at trying to get one yard are probably higher than the odds of us failing trying to get 10+ yards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobills404 Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 Whether it’s short yardage or long, the ball needs to be in Allen’s hands on every 3rd/4th down either as a runner or a passer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 I am wondering why we’re running out of shotgun whenever we have to gain as a yard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Coot Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 5 hours ago, ColoradoBills said: It was evident yesterday they don't want Josh running the way he has in the past. That's OK with me. I agree heartily and applaud this decision. The announcers said that Josh had taken 683 hits in his career. Can that be correct? In a 4 years career that's 171 hits per year or about 10 a game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted September 21, 2022 Share Posted September 21, 2022 1 hour ago, Old Coot said: I agree heartily and applaud this decision. The announcers said that Josh had taken 683 hits in his career. Can that be correct? In a 4 years career that's 171 hits per year or about 10 a game. I'm not sure of those stats. I can believe them. It needs to go down IMO. Every year he gets older. He needs to save those rushes for playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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