Benford is outplaying 1st rounder Elam in camp (edit) Benford gets start

[mjd1001]

5 hours ago, JGMcD2 said:

That's part of the problem on a message board or in the media.. nobody wants to dive into the detail. Everything is very surface level and lack critical thinking. 

 

They want to look at teams individually and view success as binary: Win = Successful and Lose = Bad.

 

When in reality each decision is so much more nuanced, is dependent on so many factors and can really only be considered good or bad by comparison to similar decisions. 

As is the thinking in all of our society. There is minimal critical thinking.

 

Watch your news network of choice, follow who you want on social media. Argue with people on message boards.  People no longer read opinions, THINK about them, and then develop or alter their thinking.  Now it is a matter of finding a source of information that you WANT to believe, have it presented to you in a way that you want to hear, and then take it as truth. 

 

Going to message boards is the same, it is no longer about hearing other points of view that might be different than yours so you can think about them. It is developing your own opinion, and looking for people to agree with you and preparing for battle with people who don't agree with you.

 

I was always thought the best way to learn about things is to take in as much information as possible, engage with people who don't agree with you with an open mind (basically asking them to explain to you why they think they way they do) and then developing your own theory. Then, you try to disprove that thought, break it down to is smallest parts, and if you cannot do that, then and only then have you 'validated' your line of thinking.

 

When I come up with what I believe, I WANT to hear other opinions that are different. I WANT to hear people give me a WELL THOUGHT OUT counter point for me to consider, maybe they thought of something I didn't think of,  and I want to hear that.  But in todays world, its all about 'being right' or just getting spoon fed what you want to hear like a baby eating baby food.

Edited August 19, 2022 by mjd1001

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

I just thought of something:

 

Say that it's true that Dane Jackson is holding it down and Benford and Elam are neck and neck. If so, I feel a lot better about putting White on PUP for 4 weeks

[Warriorspikes51]

8 minutes ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

I just thought of something:

 

Say that it's true that Dane Jackson is holding it down and Benford and Elam are neck and neck. If so, I feel a lot better about putting White on PUP for 4 weeks

Not happening, Tre will be ready before that 

[TheFunPolice]

If Benford really is playing that well, then that's great news!

 

Elam will be fine. Then we have a deeper group at DB, which is huge for the defense. Overall this draft looks very promising, IMO. 

[Billy Claude]

6 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

As is the thinking in all of our society. There is minimal critical thinking.

 

Watch your news network of choice, follow who you want on social media. Argue with people on message boards.  People no longer read opinions, THINK about them, and then develop or alter their thinking.  Now it is a matter of finding a source of information that you WANT to believe, have it presented to you in a way that you want to hear, and then take it as truth. 

 

Going to message boards is the same, it is no longer about hearing other points of view that might be different than yours so you can think about them. It is developing your own opinion, and looking for people to agree with you and preparing for battle with people who don't agree with you.

 

I was always thought the best way to learn about things is to take in as much information as possible, engage with people who don't agree with you with an open mind (basically asking them to explain to you why they think they way they do) and then developing your own theory. Then, you try to disprove that thought, break it down to is smallest parts, and if you cannot do that, then and only then have you 'validated' your line of thinking.

 

When I come up with what I believe, I WANT to hear other opinions that are different. I WANT to hear people give me a WELL THOUGHT OUT counter point for me to consider, maybe they thought of something I didn't think of,  and I want to hear that.  But in todays world, its all about 'being right' or just getting spoon fed what you want to hear like a baby eating baby food.

 

You can always tell that people are only looking for people to agree with when they attack the messenger instead of the message. 

 

An example is a few weeks ago when Warren Sharp argued that it would be difficult for the Bills to win 12 games and he was attacked as a "hater" and click-bait mostly (though not all) by people who did not bother to listen to his video.  For me,  his schedule strength arguments while valid, others not so much but it is certainly not unreasonable for someone to think 12 games might be difficult when the over/under is 11.5.  If that was so, half the bettors are placing an obvious losing bet simply because they are haters.

 

One of my pet peeves on this board is people responding to headlines without even bothering to read the article.

 

 

 

 

[Simon Says]

On 8/18/2022 at 10:38 AM, FireChans said:

But we need 3 starting CB's.

Taron Johnson in the slot and Dane Jackson outside. Plus Elam/Benford until White returns. It could be a while before one of the rookies unseats Jackson.

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

I think in your nickel and dime packages, all 3 will get plenty of playing time.

[RoyBatty is alive]

11 minutes ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

I think in your nickel and dime packages, all 3 will get plenty of playing time.

Is that what they have been calling Jake, JakeFrommStateFarm or did you create that.  Creative name and I looked up Jake Fromm and they have that as his nick name on Wikipedia.  Wonder if you should get credit..

[No_Matter_What]

On 8/18/2022 at 4:32 PM, HOUSE said:

Ok, so we drafted Benford in the 1st and Elam in the 6th

 

Are you happy now ?

After the draft we already agreed that we drafted Shakir in 3rd and Bernard in 5th.

 

This is getting confusing

[Beck Water]

5 hours ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

I think in your nickel and dime packages, all 3 will get plenty of playing time.

 

Taron Johnson is the nickel corner.

 

 

[BillsVet]

21 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

It really isn't when the next best pick they have spent there in those 6 drafts is a 4th rounder. 

 

Over investment in DEFENSE fair enough. Over investment in SECONDARY? Nah. And the investments they have made have paid divideneds. Where they have over invested without the return is 2 firsts, 2 seconds and a third on the Dline plus big FA deals for Star, Addison, Butler, Murphy and now Von. 

 

Edit: just by way of comparison the last three Superbowl Champs in the same period -

 

Rams - three day 2 picks spent on DBs plus two 1st rounders traded away for Jalen Ramsey and one 2nd rounder for Marcus Peters. 

 

Bucaneers - no 1st rounders but SIX day two picks on DBs in the same period.

 

Chiefs - one 1st rounder, two day 2 picks, a big FA deal for Tyrann Mathieu and now a slightly smaller FA deal for Justin Reid that still outstrips what the Bills have paid either of their safeties in AAV.  

 

Think it is hard to look at that and argue the Bills have ploughed lots of resources into their secondary relative to other successful teams. The argument doesn't hold water.

 

 

GB - This is a heavy dose of quibbling.  You're citing the Rams and Bucs as evidence other teams are investing as much in secondary talent?  I will be ecstatic when Buffalo also begins investing on offense the way TB and LAR have these past few seasons.  Or, with KC who up until last season had All-Pro caliber receiving talents that scorched Buffalo's vaunted defense 2 playoffs going.

 

I'm not arguing against drafting CB's high (sorry @BillfromNYC), but there's a decision to be made when they're as weak in outside skill players as this team is heading into the regular season.    

 

 

 

[GolfandBills]

That’s great if he’s out playing him.  They both looked pretty good to me last Saturday. Looks like we got two 1st round talent CBs in the draft.  

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

On 8/18/2022 at 12:31 PM, FilthyBeast said:

 

No doubt about that but will see how much it matters given the ridiculous amount high end QB/WR matchups we face in the first 8 weeks.

 

 

 

Yeah, because Tennessee, Baltimore, Pittsburgh and the NY Jets which are half of the first 8 teams we play have awesome QB/WR matchups. 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, BillsVet said:

 

GB - This is a heavy dose of quibbling.  You're citing the Rams and Bucs as evidence other teams are investing as much in secondary talent?  I will be ecstatic when Buffalo also begins investing on offense the way TB and LAR have these past few seasons.  Or, with KC who up until last season had All-Pro caliber receiving talents that scorched Buffalo's vaunted defense 2 playoffs going.

 

I'm not arguing against drafting CB's high (sorry @BillfromNYC), but there's a decision to be made when they're as weak in outside skill players as this team is heading into the regular season.    

 

 

You have the right crime (not investing enough in offense, I have argued that myself too - not just outside receiver but offensive line where they remain questionable) but you are charging the wrong criminal. 

 

There has NOT been an over investment in the secondary. It is the defensive line where they have poured resource after resource for minimal gain. 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

On 8/18/2022 at 10:21 AM, ddaryl said:

Its a great problem to have

Your 5th round Corner outplaying your 1st rounder? I’m not so sure 😒

[PrimeTime101]

Benford is a good all-around CB while Elam excels in man coverage. he showed that. I think our defense as the year goes on is going to be able to evolve, even if Elam being beat? it's not by much and when Elam figures out zone better? It's going to make our CB's way more dynamic. Teams like PIT. Bucs run a mix of man and zone coverages on one play. IF Elam can man up the #2 WR and Tre work the #1 WR with Safety deep help... this frees up many things. Some teams cause of who is at QB is better playing full 2 deep Zone on them. This opens up opportunities for both of our rookies and makes our defense more dynamic.

 

Some look at this as a "fun problem to have"

 

I look at this as an opportunity to be a more dynamic DB group on the back end. last year our defense was good but not scary good... this defense this year could evolve into something really scarry.

 

What a great time for us Bills fans!

[ddaryl]

4 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

Your 5th round Corner outplaying your 1st rounder? I’m not so sure 😒

 

 

NO!!!!  It's great having a 5th rounder playing way above his draft status.

 

Majority of camp reports are positive on both players....Both are going to make their mistakes, but both are also rising to the challenge.

 

Great problem to have....

Edited August 20, 2022 by ddaryl

[loveorhatembillsfan4life]

9 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

You have the right crime (not investing enough in offense, I have argued that myself too - not just outside receiver but offensive line where they remain questionable) but you are charging the wrong criminal. 

 

There has NOT been an over investment in the secondary. It is the defensive line where they have poured resource after resource for minimal gain. 

The infatuation with the Dline in prior years has been a disaster  in resources and money. But this has to be the year doesn’t it? If not this year then when.. 
 

I’m cautiously optimistic with the addition of Von,  Oliver taking it to another level, Groot breaking out  and the depth behind them that they can be a force to be reckoned with. Maybe we hit gold getting two Corners out of this draft solidifying the secondary in case of injury. From my point of view it’s time for this defense to take it to another level. 

But agree, Josh should be given whatever resources we can provide. Beane and Mcd seem to value Growth,  out of their home drafted guys so yeah they feel good about Gabe and the guys we have, we also can keep them around a a fairly good price..

 

I just hope that a major injury doesn’t derail the season because of lack of depth. I think I’m all for trying to bring in Odell for a stretch run if we can. 
 

I think Beane, Mcd and the players can get Odell to buy into the culture, he is with his buddy Von.. I think he could be a good asset provided he is healthy. 

Edited August 20, 2022 by loveorhatembillsfan4life

[Doc]

6 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

Your 5th round Corner outplaying your 1st rounder? I’m not so sure 😒

 

If "outplaying" meant "he sucks but not as bad as the 1st rounder," I'd agree.  But "outplaying" here is "good chance to start and slightly ahead of the 1st rounder."

Edited August 20, 2022 by Doc

[QLBillsFan]

12 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

GB - This is a heavy dose of quibbling.  You're citing the Rams and Bucs as evidence other teams are investing as much in secondary talent?  I will be ecstatic when Buffalo also begins investing on offense the way TB and LAR have these past few seasons.  Or, with KC who up until last season had All-Pro caliber receiving talents that scorched Buffalo's vaunted defense 2 playoffs going.

 

I'm not arguing against drafting CB's high (sorry @BillfromNYC), but there's a decision to be made when they're as weak in outside skill players as this team is heading into the regular season.    

 

 

 

Your saying the Bills haven’t invested in offense talent? Diggs trade, Knox, Davis, Shakir, Saffold, Crowder. They scored about 40 points a game in the playoffs. Pretty clear O isn’t the problem. So they logically went D in the draft. Slow at corner so trying to address it. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

You know Benford is probably getting burned today. Lol. That’s how the world works.

[PrimeTime101]

44 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

If "outplaying" meant "he sucks but not as bad as the 1st rounder," I'd agree.  But "outplaying" here is "good chance to start and slightly ahead of the 1st rounder."

wait.. are you saying our 1st rounder sucks?

[QLBillsFan]

The suggestion is the 6th round corner is outplaying the 1st round corner based on a speculative article. They both looked good vs Colts. If they are both good, that’s a great problem to have. The likely case is Elam gets more field time this year. That is based on draft status, upside, and a solid if not spectacular camp. The Bills draft DB’s well and develop them well. Let’s give McBeane and Leslie Frazier credit. It’s only good news for me. 

[VW82]

I mean, who cares?? Didn't we all know that it might take Elam a min to figure out the league? 

 

We need him to have things on lockdown by November. Same with Tre. Stealing Von from the Rams is going to help out so much here. Plus we're another year in for Oliver, Rousseau, and Edmunds. It's not like we need to cover all day back there. And even if we do, Taron is fine to move outside, Dane & Siran know the system well, and we have the best safety tandem in the league. 

 

I hope Benford continues to impress but I am absolutely NOT worried about Elam. These kids should be worked in slowly and at their own pace, and we should trust that McD and Leslie know what they're doing here. They've given us every reason to believe they do when it comes to DBs. 

[Doc]

32 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

wait.. are you saying our 1st rounder sucks?

No. 

[Toyo321]

We just have to let this play out.  Competition is a good thing in pre season.

 

Tre is not ready to play and personally I don't see him even starting until midway through this season.

 

ACL surgery and getting back to 100% full potential takes more than 9 months for this to happen.

 

It does not matter if your in the NFL or not on this type of surgery.  I had this done on my ACL and MCL on my right knee and rehabbed 5 out of every 7 days for 12 months until I felt good enough to trust doing anything 100% on my repaired knee, athletically related.  Even after that I used a brace for reassurance.

 

Cornerback is probably the worst position to have this type of injury.  You are constantly reacting while covering a receiver.  Pivoting and making abrupt directional changes is very hard on your knee, even more so after this type of injury and surgery.

[BillsVet]

16 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

You have the right crime (not investing enough in offense, I have argued that myself too - not just outside receiver but offensive line where they remain questionable) but you are charging the wrong criminal. 

 

There has NOT been an over investment in the secondary. It is the defensive line where they have poured resource after resource for minimal gain. 

 

We'll revisit this topic when Buffalo invests a high pick to replace Hyde and/or Poyer in the short term.  

[GunnerBill]

30 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

We'll revisit this topic when Buffalo invests a high pick to replace Hyde and/or Poyer in the short term.  

 

What and you will claim victory by saying they over prioritise defensive backs before they actually did? 

 

If they spend a 1st on a safety next April we are having a different conversation. See how this works? We go on the evidence of what HAS happened not the supposition of what might.

Edited August 20, 2022 by GunnerBill

[Warcodered]

11 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

What and you will claim victory by saying they over prioritise defensive backs before they actually did? 

 

If they spend a 1st on a safety next April we are having a different conversation. See how this works? We go on the evidence of what HAS happened not the supposition of what might.

But then he wouldn't be right.

[Ya Digg?]

8 hours ago, ddaryl said:

 

 

NO!!!!  It's great having a 5th rounder playing way above his draft status.

 

Majority of camp reports are positive on both players....Both are going to make their mistakes, but both are also rising to the challenge.

 

Great problem to have....

 

6 hours ago, Doc said:

 

If "outplaying" meant "he sucks but not as bad as the 1st rounder," I'd agree.  But "outplaying" here is "good chance to start and slightly ahead of the 1st rounder."

Shhhhhhh, this ruins the narrative that some on here are unfortunately trying to build

8 hours ago, ddaryl said:

 

6 hours ago, Doc said:

 

 

Edited August 20, 2022 by Ya Digg?

[QLBillsFan]

Elam played today before Benford suggesting he is ahead of him on depth chart. Both played fine, Elam with a penalty overall ok. Benford good in run support. I’m actually impressed with both and depth at CB seems to be holding up. 

[Doc]

1 minute ago, QLBillsFan said:

Elam played today before Benford suggesting he is ahead of him on depth chart. Both played fine, Elam with a penalty overall ok. Benford good in run support. I’m actually impressed with both and depth at CB seems to be holding up. 

 

Benford as well.

[QLBillsFan]

2 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

We'll revisit this topic when Buffalo invests a high pick to replace Hyde and/or Poyer in the short term.  

The Bills will replace them with players currently on the roster. And unlikely the same year.

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

What and you will claim victory by saying they over prioritise defensive backs before they actually did? 

 

If they spend a 1st on a safety next April we are having a different conversation. See how this works? We go on the evidence of what HAS happened not the supposition of what might.

 

 

They've invested a lot in their entire defense.    

 

The only exception, prior to this offseason, had been their second boundary CB.

 

 Which they have now spent another first round pick on.    

 

The rest of their starting back 7 on D are all on very lucrative contracts.   Even the slot corner.

 

That is "evidence".

 

Your perception that they haven't invested heavily in the secondary is very wrong...........they have just gotten better results/bang-for-the-buck from White, Johnson, Hyde and Poyer than they have out of their DL investments to this point.

[Bermuda Triangle]

11 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

They've invested a lot in their entire defense.    

 

The only exception, prior to this offseason, had been their second boundary CB.

 

 Which they have now spent another first round pick on.    

 

The rest of their starting back 7 on D are all on very lucrative contracts.   Even the slot corner.

 

That is "evidence".

 

Your perception that they haven't invested heavily in the secondary is very wrong...........they have just gotten better results/bang-for-the-buck from White, Johnson, Hyde and Poyer than they have out of their DL investments to this point.

Is there any position, maybe aside from TE, in which the Bills haven't 'invested heavily'?

[BADOLBILZ]

2 minutes ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

Is there any position, maybe aside from TE, in which the Bills haven't 'invested heavily'?

 

OL, WR and TE.........basically positions that usually account for 8-9 of the 11 on the field every snap.

 

Keep in mind, it's relative........we all know how much they've put into the DL........but presuming that Elam passes Dane Jackson at some point this season.........the defensive back 7 are all on big money deals for their positions or/and were first round picks......White, Edmunds, Elam.

 

By contrast,  the Bills OL only has 2 such players(Dawkins and Morse) out of 5.....for example.   No first round picks.  Bates got a modest RFA deal for a full time starter and Saffold is only a 1 year flyer........something they only seem to do on offense(see Crowder/Quessenberry/Mancz deals).

 

Maybe it works out because Josh Allen is just so great that he can make a lot of players look better than they are..........but with all the lucrative deals and 5 of 7 first rounders used on defense by this regime there is no denying they've put a lot more of their premium personnel chips into the defensive side of the ball.

 

Personally,  I'd rather the Bills have gone for becoming the first NFL team to average 38 points per game in a regular season and take my chances with a top 5-10 type defense instead of a defense that should finish 1st overall with a bullet(again, but admittedly might not because defense is the much harder side of the ball to remain consistently excellent on, see 2020).    

 

That more defense-centric approach to team building didn't work last season when the thin OL and lack of YAC receiving talent undermined them thru the first 13 games.   

 

[Sierra Foothills]

On 8/19/2022 at 5:32 AM, mjd1001 said:

As is the thinking in all of our society. There is minimal critical thinking.

 

Watch your news network of choice, follow who you want on social media. Argue with people on message boards.  People no longer read opinions, THINK about them, and then develop or alter their thinking.  Now it is a matter of finding a source of information that you WANT to believe, have it presented to you in a way that you want to hear, and then take it as truth.

 

It's called confirmation bias.

 

On 8/19/2022 at 12:31 PM, Billy Claude said:

One of my pet peeves on this board is people responding to headlines without even bothering to read the article.

 

My biggest pet peeve is the majority of people here who reply to a post on page 2 instead of reading the entire 5 page thread before then replying.

 

It's more than likely that someone has already made the point you were too impatient to wait on so you're only adding to the clutter of unnecessary replies within the topic.

 

On 8/19/2022 at 1:10 PM, RoyBatty is alive said:

Is that what they have been calling Jake, JakeFrommStateFarm or did you create that.  Creative name and I looked up Jake Fromm and they have that as his nick name on Wikipedia.  Wonder if you should get credit..

 

While we're asking questions about usernames, what was your reaction when Rutger Hauer passed away?

 

 

[Sierra Foothills]

 

I thought the above graphic from yesterday's game was illuminating.

 

Regarding Benford, he excelled/dominated at his previous level of competition:

 

"Benford played in nine games with eight starts as a true freshman and was named the Colonial Athletic Association (CAA) Defensive Rookie of the Year and third team All-CAA after making 49 tackles with six pass breakups and five interceptions. He played in ten games with seven starts as a sophomore and broke up five passes with one interception. Benford was named first team All-CAA in his junior season, which was shortened and played in the spring of 2021 due to the COVID-19 pandemic in the United States. As a senior, Benford recorded 39 tackles with seven interceptions and an NCAA Division I FCS-leading 18 passes broken up and was again named first team All-CAA."

[Bermuda Triangle]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

OL, WR and TE.........basically positions that usually account for 8-9 of the 11 on the field every snap.

 

Keep in mind, it's relative........we all know how much they've put into the DL........but presuming that Elam passes Dane Jackson at some point this season.........the defensive back 7 are all on big money deals for their positions or/and were first round picks......White, Edmunds, Elam.

 

By contrast,  the Bills OL only has 2 such players(Dawkins and Morse) out of 5.....for example.   No first round picks.  Bates got a modest RFA deal for a full time starter and Saffold is only a 1 year flyer........something they only seem to do on offense(see Crowder/Quessenberry/Mancz deals).

 

Maybe it works out because Josh Allen is just so great that he can make a lot of players look better than they are..........but with all the lucrative deals and 5 of 7 first rounders used on defense by this regime there is no denying they've put a lot more of their premium personnel chips into the defensive side of the ball.

 

Personally,  I'd rather the Bills have gone for becoming the first NFL team to average 38 points per game in a regular season and take my chances with a top 5-10 type defense instead of a defense that should finish 1st overall with a bullet(again, but admittedly might not because defense is the much harder side of the ball to remain consistently excellent on, see 2020).    

 

That more defense-centric approach to team building didn't work last season when the thin OL and lack of YAC receiving talent undermined them thru the first 13 games.   

 

Yes, I specifically excluded the TE position.

 

OL:  2nd round picks in Ford (trade up), Brown and Dawkins.  Big $$ extension for Dawkins, healthy FA deal given to Morse, Bates offer sheet matched.

 

WR:  massive extension for Diggs (1st and 4th [I believe] traded to acquire Diggs), 4th round pick in Davis.  If Davis is extended, that also won't be cheap. 

[BADOLBILZ]

11 minutes ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

Yes, I specifically excluded the TE position.

 

OL:  2nd round picks in Ford (trade up), Brown and Dawkins.  Big $$ extension for Dawkins, healthy FA deal given to Morse, Bates offer sheet matched.

 

WR:  massive extension for Diggs (1st and 4th [I believe] traded to acquire Diggs), 4th round pick in Davis.  If Davis is extended, that also won't be cheap. 

 

 

Obviously Brown wasn't a second round pick,  he was the 93rd pick in 2021 draft.   DL's Greg Rousseau and Boogie Basham were the Bills first two picks in 2021.  

 

Bates had his offer sheet matched but they weren't willing to give him the modest second round tender to avoid having to deal with an offer sheet.    His deal will be cheap if he plays all 1,000 snaps per year as a starting OL should.    Compare that to the deals that all the free agent rotational DL got when they are only going to play just 45% of the snaps or so.  

 

Talking about potential Davis and Knox extensions like they are moves that have been made is no different than talking about Edmunds or Oliver extensions.........or presuming that next year's #1 pick will be a DE or MLB or a Safety etc.............we may see things trending that way but what we are talking about here are moves that have actually been made in the first 6 offseason of the regime.