penalties on kick returns - out of control

[dave mcbride]

I swear to god that I think the NFL is trying to legislate returns out of the game. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that between 33 and 50 percent of all kick returns (inclusive of punts) result in a holding penalty on the returning team. I can't imagine that STs are more likely to hold than, say, interior offensive linemen, but they definitely get called at a way higher rate. The hold on the kick return for a TD didn't bother me because I expect it to happen, but at the same time, even though he held a bit, it was nowhere near the play and the guy being held had not a snowball's chance in hell of getting within 5 yards of McKenzie. Anyway, ST returns are difficult to watch. I also think the Bills were kicking it short deliberately because they figured they had a 50/50 chance of a hold call that'd push TN back to the 10. Happened at least once and maybe twice (can't recall specifically). 

 

Anyway, it's bad for the game because it's bad entertainment. 

Edited October 19, 2021 by dave mcbride

[Aussie Joe]

This issue has been annoying me for the last couple of  years..

 

Kick and Punt returns are one of the most exciting parts of the game but I do agree that it appears they might be getting us used to these plays not being part of the game in the longer term...

 

As is often said, you could throw a flag on probably every play if you look hard enough.. and they try their best to do that on these ST plays.. no doubt under instructions from head office.. 

[auburnbillsbacker]

It seems like most of the time a block starts off legal but becomes illegal when the special teams player quicky switches directions.  There isn't anything the blocker can really do.  It's annoying. 

[ColoradoBills]

I don't think it's got anything to do with the refs.  It's the nature of the play setup.  Guys running hard and fast in the open field and then

a sudden turn as the returner moves by.  It has really hurt the filed position (especially on punts) for the Bills this year and last night it

took points off the board on a KR.  It is a problem that Farwell has to get cleaned up.

 

After the 2nd Titans drive in the 1st was stopped McKenzie had a punt return to almost midfield called back on 2 flags on the PR team.

It's a lot of little things that can result in a win or a loss.

[dave mcbride]

24 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

I don't think it's got anything to do with the refs.  It's the nature of the play setup.  Guys running hard and fast in the open field and then

a sudden turn as the returner moves by.  It has really hurt the filed position (especially on punts) for the Bills this year and last night it

took points off the board on a KR.  It is a problem that Farwell has to get cleaned up.

 

After the 2nd Titans drive in the 1st was stopped McKenzie had a punt return to almost midfield called back on 2 flags on the PR team.

It's a lot of little things that can result in a win or a loss.

It's not just the Bills though - it's pervasive throughout the league and seems far worse than it was, say, a decade ago.

[ColoradoBills]

2 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

It's not just the Bills though - it's pervasive throughout the league and seems far worse than it was, say, a decade ago.

 

Agree.  It started when "blocking in the back" replaced clipping.  Clips were illegal only below the waist.

Some teams are much more disciplined than others in this regard.  But yes it is called a lot but it's because the players are doing it.

The holds have always been there on these plays.  IMO.

[Dan Darragh]

It's a bad rule.  How do I know this? Because the players can't play according to the rule.  It's not just one team and it's not just now and then.  

 

I know it's a safety consideration but they should rewrite the rule in a way that the players can play to it.

[LABILLBACKER]

47 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I swear to god that I think the NFL is trying to legislate returns out of the game. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that between 33 and 50 percent of all kick returns (inclusive of punts) result in a holding penalty on the returning team. I can't imagine that STs are more likely to hold than, say, interior offensive linemen, but they definitely get called at a way higher rate. The hold on the kick return for a TD didn't bother me because I expect it to happen, but at the same time, even though he held a bit, it was nowhere near the play and the guy being held had not a snowball's chance in hell of getting within 5 yards of McKenzie. Anyway, ST returns are difficult to watch. I also think the Bills were kicking it short deliberately because they figured they had a 50/50 chance of a hold call that'd push TN back to the 10. Happened at least once and maybe twice (can't recall specifically). 

 

Anyway, it's bad for the game because it's bad entertainment. 

I think the last 3 pop up kicks by Buffalo ended up at the 30, 33 & 35. I hated the deliberate strategy last night. We don't have the gunners to run that. Let Bass tb the ball and take your chances at the 25. Hopefully that's the last we see of that.

[dave mcbride]

Just now, LABILLBACKER said:

I think the last 3 pop up kicks by Buffalo ended up at the 30, 33 & 35. I hated the deliberate strategy last night. We don't have the gunners to run that. Let Bass tb the ball and take your chances at the 25. Hopefully that's the last we see of that.

Yeah, it all probably averaged out to about the 25 at the end of the day. The first four didn't make the 25 and one was at the 10 because of a penalty.

[without a drought]

Holding and illegal blocks on returns should only be called if they actually affect the play. Calling penalties for holding a guy who has no chance of making a play is ridiculous.

[Iiiiiiiiive Got a Feeeelin]

32 minutes ago, without a drought said:

Holding and illegal blocks on returns should only be called if they actually affect the play. Calling penalties for holding a guy who has no chance of making a play is ridiculous.

Just to advocate for the devil, one could also make the point that players should not hold people who are far out of a play 

[Solomon Grundy]

The penalties are sickening  when they keep being called on the same person…cough Andre Smith

[BuffaloRebound]

There are so few big returns.  You’d think special teams coaches would just tell the blockers to put their hands behind their backs.  It’s not worth the effort.  Which is probably why the Bills were kicking it short.  No big returns and high probability of holding on the return team.  Not sure how you can even block guys running at full speed coming from all over the field.  

[WhoTom]

The penalty on the last kickoff cost us the game, but it was blatant holding - can't blame the ref for throwing the flag. Guys do it because there's a chance that they'll get away with it. Sometimes they do, but the decision to hold on that play was absolutely the wrong decision at that moment. The penalty cost us 10 yards on a drive that was 2 yards from being successful.

 

The hold occurred at the 28. If he doesn't hold and McK gets tackled near the 30, that's not bad field position with 3 minutes left on the clock. I'm sure he was seeing green downfield and figured he'd try to spring him for a TD, but would a quick TD be good with so much time left and the way the Titans were killing our defense? Before I saw the flag, I was thinking  "We scored too fast and left too much time on the clock."

 

Special Teams needs to hold some situational awareness drills next week.

 

[BuffaloRebound]

The only time it ever makes sense to put yourself in a position to hold is in pass protection.  Sometimes a 10 yard penalty is better than getting your QB killed and potentially creating a turnover.  Every other hold is stupidity and just hoping the ref doesn’t see it.  The hold on McKenzie return was obvious and total lack of discipline. 

[Brand J]

The hold (and tackle) on Poyer as Henry ran past him for 76 yards was more egregious. If not for the hold, Poyer would’ve been in position to make the tackle. I don’t think the same can be said for the Titans’ special teamer. He wouldn’t have made the tackle anyway, too far and flat footed.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

2 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

I swear to god that I think the NFL is trying to legislate returns out of the game. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that between 33 and 50 percent of all kick returns (inclusive of punts) result in a holding penalty on the returning team. I can't imagine that STs are more likely to hold than, say, interior offensive linemen, but they definitely get called at a way higher rate. The hold on the kick return for a TD didn't bother me because I expect it to happen, but at the same time, even though he held a bit, it was nowhere near the play and the guy being held had not a snowball's chance in hell of getting within 5 yards of McKenzie. Anyway, ST returns are difficult to watch. I also think the Bills were kicking it short deliberately because they figured they had a 50/50 chance of a hold call that'd push TN back to the 10. Happened at least once and maybe twice (can't recall specifically). 

 

Anyway, it's bad for the game because it's bad entertainment. 

Agreed. its becoming unwatchable. 

[machine gun kelly]

2 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

It's not just the Bills though - it's pervasive throughout the league and seems far worse than it was, say, a decade ago.

Dave, I’m with you in that every return is a hold you’re breath for every team its not coming back.

The only part I slightly disagree is for me it feels like this has been a pain the ars for many years.  You’d think they’d give some latitude as it is one of the most fun parts of the game when a return ensues.  It’s to the point I just expect every great return to come back.

[BuffaloBillies]

Agree refs love flagging returns, even if way away from play. 

Given that, would it make sense to teach these guys to block with closed fists?

No fingers, no holding.

Or go old school and have them grab their own jerseys and stick their elbows out. 

As for block in back... ugh, guys don't block a guy in his back. Can't be that difficult. 

[dave mcbride]

58 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

The hold (and tackle) on Poyer as Henry ran past him for 76 yards was more egregious. If not for the hold, Poyer would’ve been in position to make the tackle. I don’t think the same can be said for the Titans’ special teamer. He wouldn’t have made the tackle anyway, too far and flat footed.

Sort of proves my point. Holding happens a lot on both ST and regular play, but it gets called a lot more on ST.

[BigDingus]

It's not even worth returning anymore unless you absolutely have to. 

On kickoffs, better to just get the touchback. On punts, better to fair catch if you aren't putting the team in abysmal position or also get the touchback.

 

Anything else just results in a flag & being set further back somehow. Maybe on kick returns they should just have 1 ref on each side, and make all the others cover their eyes. Anything blatant enough to be caught by the only 2 guys out there is fine 😄

[SinceThe70s]

3 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

I swear to god that I think the NFL is trying to legislate returns out of the game. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that between 33 and 50 percent of all kick returns (inclusive of punts) result in a holding penalty on the returning team. I can't imagine that STs are more likely to hold than, say, interior offensive linemen, but they definitely get called at a way higher rate. The hold on the kick return for a TD didn't bother me because I expect it to happen, but at the same time, even though he held a bit, it was nowhere near the play and the guy being held had not a snowball's chance in hell of getting within 5 yards of McKenzie. Anyway, ST returns are difficult to watch. I also think the Bills were kicking it short deliberately because they figured they had a 50/50 chance of a hold call that'd push TN back to the 10. Happened at least once and maybe twice (can't recall specifically). 

 

Anyway, it's bad for the game because it's bad entertainment. 

 

Couldn't agree more, especially the bolded. 

 

Penalties and instant replay have involuntarily changed the way I watch the game. After every play, instead of enjoying or agonizing over the outcome I'm looking for the yellow indicator that there was a flag or wondering if the play will go to review to find out whether I should be happy or sad. The inconsistency of the the refs and booth officials just adds to the problem. 

 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

4 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

I swear to god that I think the NFL is trying to legislate returns out of the game. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that between 33 and 50 percent of all kick returns (inclusive of punts) result in a holding penalty on the returning team. I can't imagine that STs are more likely to hold than, say, interior offensive linemen, but they definitely get called at a way higher rate. The hold on the kick return for a TD didn't bother me because I expect it to happen, but at the same time, even though he held a bit, it was nowhere near the play and the guy being held had not a snowball's chance in hell of getting within 5 yards of McKenzie. Anyway, ST returns are difficult to watch. I also think the Bills were kicking it short deliberately because they figured they had a 50/50 chance of a hold call that'd push TN back to the 10. Happened at least once and maybe twice (can't recall specifically). 

 

Anyway, it's bad for the game because it's bad entertainment. 

Definitely could be right and it's kind of funny because holding is totally cool on just your regular running play apparently 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

I do wonder with practice time getting more and more limited by CBA, when you factor in how many kickers can kick it out of end zone when desired for touch backs, are teams practicing kick off returns less, hence more penalties??

 

Is it harder to practice returning kicks without more risk of injury as it's just hard without going full speed, then potential more injuries in practice??

[Patrick Duffy]

5 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

I swear to god that I think the NFL is trying to legislate returns out of the game. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that between 33 and 50 percent of all kick returns (inclusive of punts) result in a holding penalty on the returning team. I can't imagine that STs are more likely to hold than, say, interior offensive linemen, but they definitely get called at a way higher rate. The hold on the kick return for a TD didn't bother me because I expect it to happen, but at the same time, even though he held a bit, it was nowhere near the play and the guy being held had not a snowball's chance in hell of getting within 5 yards of McKenzie. Anyway, ST returns are difficult to watch. I also think the Bills were kicking it short deliberately because they figured they had a 50/50 chance of a hold call that'd push TN back to the 10. Happened at least once and maybe twice (can't recall specifically). 

 

Anyway, it's bad for the game because it's bad entertainment. 

Flagged for holding on the McK TD return but no flag on the 2 holds during D. Henry TD run. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

The issues are two fold. As many have pointed out punt and kickoff coverage is unlike any other plays.  The blockers in many cases are running stride for stride with the tacklers. That doesn't happen on regular offensive plays.  

 

Two issues really piss me off.   McD and Beane put so much emphasis on ST's players on the roster and they still suck.  But even worse, games are significantly affected by the worst players on the roster and the refs.  Smith holding some scrub on Tenn that then resulted in a flag significantly affected the outcome of that game.  That is not what the NFL or any of us want.  

[BADOLBILZ]

8 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

I swear to god that I think the NFL is trying to legislate returns out of the game. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that between 33 and 50 percent of all kick returns (inclusive of punts) result in a holding penalty on the returning team. I can't imagine that STs are more likely to hold than, say, interior offensive linemen, but they definitely get called at a way higher rate. The hold on the kick return for a TD didn't bother me because I expect it to happen, but at the same time, even though he held a bit, it was nowhere near the play and the guy being held had not a snowball's chance in hell of getting within 5 yards of McKenzie. Anyway, ST returns are difficult to watch. I also think the Bills were kicking it short deliberately because they figured they had a 50/50 chance of a hold call that'd push TN back to the 10. Happened at least once and maybe twice (can't recall specifically). 

 

Anyway, it's bad for the game because it's bad entertainment. 

 

 

I am all for taking kickoffs and punts out of the game entirely.   Mostly a waste of time.   Just give the team the ball at the 25 after a score and instead of punts allow the team to flip the field 35 yards from inside their own 40 and half the distance from thereafter.   Get to midfield,  the best a "punt choice" gets you is giving the opponent the ball at their 25.

 

As for the holding........the NFL is obviously on a mission to reverse the narrative that they didn't throw any holding penalties last year.   The game was better last year with less holding calls.

 

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by BADOLBILZ

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

As for the holding........the NFL is obviously on a mission to reverse the narrative that they didn't throw any holding penalties last year.   The game was better last year with less holding calls.

 

 

They definitely made a conscious decision to call holding less often last year. I have to think in empty stadiums it was an attempt to avoid sucking yet more energy out of the games by calling back big plays on holding calls. 

[mannc]

9 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

The hold (and tackle) on Poyer as Henry ran past him for 76 yards was more egregious. If not for the hold, Poyer would’ve been in position to make the tackle. I don’t think the same can be said for the Titans’ special teamer. He wouldn’t have made the tackle anyway, too far and flat footed.

Poyer was in physical contact with Henry when he was held; the Titans’ number 15 literally peeled him off of Henry.

Edited October 20, 2021 by mannc

[BADOLBILZ]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

They definitely made a conscious decision to call holding less often last year. I have to think in empty stadiums it was an attempt to avoid sucking yet more energy out of the games by calling back big plays on holding calls. 

 

 

Sadly, the reality is that the penalties add drama and nothing bonds fans to their team quite like the injustice of being penalized..........so there isn't any motivation for the league to work to reduce penalties in front of packed, energized venues.    They are at least taking steps to streamline the penalizing process though with the sky judge stuff.   That actually also serves to create more drama because then fans can't blame a specific official which makes them feel even more wronged.  

[BearNorth]

8 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I am all for taking kickoffs and punts out of the game entirely.   Mostly a waste of time.   Just give the team the ball at the 25 after a score and instead of punts allow the team to flip the field 35 yards from inside their own 40 and half the distance from thereafter.   Get to midfield,  the best a "punt choice" gets you is giving the opponent the ball at their 25.

 

As for the holding........the NFL is obviously on a mission to reverse the narrative that they didn't throw any holding penalties last year.   The game was better last year with less holding calls.

 

 

I agree, however the average net in the league is 41, so a flip of 40 would be probably be more accurate than 35.  Suspect this would lead to more long FG attempts as well, which are more exciting than penalties on kick returns.

[BADOLBILZ]

10 minutes ago, BearNorth said:

I agree, however the average net in the league is 41, so a flip of 40 would be probably be more accurate than 35.  Suspect this would lead to more long FG attempts as well, which are more exciting than penalties on kick returns.

 

I think the objective should be to disincentivize the punt option.........giving the team the average net punt result would appeal very much to the Dick Jauron's of the world who endeavor to take the excitement out of the game.   I'm also not sure if punts from deep in your end tend to average 40 yards net.  Hence my thoughts about a less appealing 35 yard flip from within the 50.   Definitely make playing aggressive in your own end more important.....a lousy team can't lean on having the better undrafted free agent punter to help them flip the field back in their favor.   Also gets punters out of the game in general.   Who could possibly miss punters? 

[BuffaloRebound]

9 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I am all for taking kickoffs and punts out of the game entirely.   Mostly a waste of time.   Just give the team the ball at the 25 after a score and instead of punts allow the team to flip the field 35 yards from inside their own 40 and half the distance from thereafter.   Get to midfield,  the best a "punt choice" gets you is giving the opponent the ball at their 25.

 

As for the holding........the NFL is obviously on a mission to reverse the narrative that they didn't throw any holding penalties last year.   The game was better last year with less holding calls.

 

 

I like it.  And if NFL keeps trying to add more regular season games, it makes even more sense.  Instead of wasting 53 man roster spots on guys who only play on punt and kick coverage, you can carry more guys who actually play on offense or defense.  And a lot of injuries happen on punt and kick coverage plays.  

[Freddie's Dead]

During my work for the Edmunds Report, I replayed the 35 yard KR that set up the Titians last TD drive.  There was a blatant hold against Smith Jr. that was a carbon copy of his hold on the McKittrick KR TD that was called back. We got jobbed on holding calls in this game.  There were three on the Henry TD run, but no one cares about that now, it's been deemed a "great play".  

[DrDawkinstein]

15 hours ago, Solomon Grundy said:

The penalties are sickening  when they keep being called on the same person…cough Andre Smith

 

This was my biggest observation regarding penalties on punts. Andre Smith trying to get himself cut from the team.

 

Dont block in the back. Dont hold. Would rather have our returner tackled at the spot than lose another 10 yards.

[Freddie's Dead]

12 hours ago, Sheneneh Jenkins said:

Flagged for holding on the McK TD return but no flag on the 2 holds during D. Henry TD run. 

 

There were 3 holds, Poyer, Taron Johnson, and Tre'.

17 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

Yeah, it all probably averaged out to about the 25 at the end of the day. The first four didn't make the 25 and one was at the 10 because of a penalty.

 

Remember when they creamed the guy in KC on the KR, caused a fumble and recovered it?  They were trying to do that again.  It worked out until the last KR, which was helped by a non-call for a blatant hold on Smith, Jr.

[BearNorth]

16 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

I like it.  And if NFL keeps trying to add more regular season games, it makes even more sense.  Instead of wasting 53 man roster spots on guys who only play on punt and kick coverage, you can carry more guys who actually play on offense or defense.  And a lot of injuries happen on punt and kick coverage plays.  

If you eliminate punters, who would hold on FG's and EP's? 

Could the regular center snap on FG's and EP's?

With the ubiquity of shotgun, most Centers are proficient at a 7 yard snap, but is it fast and accurate enough for FG's and EP's. 

Taiwan Jones who is our "core" special teamer has played 108 snaps this year in 6 games. Reggie Gilliam has more at 136.

 

[Jerome007]

My kid's highschool football team played without punts and kickoffs. Punts were 25 yards. Of course for pros it'd have to be more. Sure. you get used to it. But I much prefer how it is now.  You guys really want to take this out of the game? It's called FOOTball for a reason...

 

 

[Greatdane21]

For all the players we keep for their ST prowess we sure make a lot of mistakes . 
 

[Xwnyer]

On 10/19/2021 at 4:55 PM, dave mcbride said:

I swear to god that I think the NFL is trying to legislate returns out of the game. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that between 33 and 50 percent of all kick returns (inclusive of punts) result in a holding penalty on the returning team. I can't imagine that STs are more likely to hold than, say, interior offensive linemen, but they definitely get called at a way higher rate. The hold on the kick return for a TD didn't bother me because I expect it to happen, but at the same time, even though he held a bit, it was nowhere near the play and the guy being held had not a snowball's chance in hell of getting within 5 yards of McKenzie. Anyway, ST returns are difficult to watch. I also think the Bills were kicking it short deliberately because they figured they had a 50/50 chance of a hold call that'd push TN back to the 10. Happened at least once and maybe twice (can't recall specifically). 

 

Anyway, it's bad for the game because it's bad entertainment. 

The hold on TD return was minor go look at them throw down on titans game winning td not called