Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 2 minutes ago, HappyDays said: Addison and Johnson have totally different roles on the team. Addison is a rotational pass rusher. Johnson was just a special teams gunner. He was never going to see the field on defense. I don't know how many gunners we need but we still have Jones, Neal, and Kumerow on the roster. If McDermott and Farwell decide we only need two gunners then Kumerow is probably gone. I'd let Jones go before Kumerow as he also provides much more offensive prowess than Jones does. How much ST drop off is there between the 2 when factoring in the number of touchbacks too. Do you the gunners change things all that much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Hucklebuck Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 I don't think the Bills hand was forced on this. Don't give T Jones a roster spot, cut Addison. Seems short-sighted to trade a 24-year old for a 6th Round pick. How does that make the team any better? He was a 7th Round pick that stuck on the roster for 2-years. And he had the size you can't teach. Addison is a FA bust, not sure why he is allowed to hang around over a player you drafted and developed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderingsquid Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 Hoping this means that we have improved on teams and that our even younger d lineman are working out/impressing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnNord Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 3 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said: Thought I read early on that Obada was playing ST?? Suppose too politically it just didn't make any sense for Carolina to trade for Obada, would make them look rather dumb. They might have tried him at ST but he didn’t play there during the preseason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 Just now, HappyDays said: As a pass rusher I don't think he's progressed at all. A lot of people in this thread are conflating "developing" with "young." Some players hit the NFL as good as they'll ever be. I don't see Johnson ever being more than a depth piece as a pass rusher. I'm guessing the Panthers traded for him for his special teams ability, and we have more than enough special teams players on the roster to get something back for one. I'm surprised this is even a controversial trade. Before training camp I had assumed Johnson would end up not making the team and he didn't do anything in camp or preseason to change that outlook. Agree that there isn't a lot of obvious development but I thought he had a nice pre-season in terms of the games. No idea if he replicated it in camp. I didn't have him making the roster when pre-season began but he would have been on my 53 as of this morning and Obada (great camp, disappointing pre-season games) and Addison (my views are well known) would have been at greater risk to my mind. Not that I think this is a trade that makes no sense. I get it. I don't think it is a ridiculous mistake or anything, but I likely wouldn't have gone that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 Just now, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said: I'd let Jones go before Kumerow as he also provides much more offensive prowess than Jones does. How much ST drop off is there between the 2 when factoring in the number of touchbacks too. Do you the gunners change things all that much I am somewhere between Gunner's and your view on this. I do think special teams matters, to a point. When the coaches say Taiwan Jones is an elite gunner I take their word for it. That makes him worth a roster spot because he does prevent actual yards gained. Neither Kumerow or Jones are going to contribute on offense at all. It's hard to see Kumerow ever seeing the field with this WR depth. So between the two I take the better gunner which is Jones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 2 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said: I'd let Jones go before Kumerow as he also provides much more offensive prowess than Jones does. How much ST drop off is there between the 2 when factoring in the number of touchbacks too. Do you think the gunners change things all that much I do. And the Bills do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TC in St. Louis Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 Bam was an ace on special teams. He worked hard at becoming a good defensive end, but his best moments seemed to be in preseason. Rather than cutting him, Beane did the team and Bam a favor. I wish him well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 10 minutes ago, Doc said: I think that they don't believe Johnson has progressed enough in his first 2 years. Plus Addison is a veteran and trading/cutting him would leave a pretty green DE room. I'll certainly keep an ear out for Johnson on the Panthers (and hope that Addison outplays him). I doubt Johnson is going to play a lot of defensive snaps for the Panthers either. He will be a depth piece and a core special teamer. My view is just that I only really see Addison as a depth piece here and without the special team ability. I get the experience point, I also think - as I said earlier - there is likely a trust point with a popular vet in the locker room at play, and I totally get that too. I see why they made this decision. I'd have made a different one that's all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FilthyBeast Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 2 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said: I don't think the Bills hand was forced on this. Don't give T Jones a roster spot, cut Addison. Seems short-sighted to trade a 24-year old for a 6th Round pick. How does that make the team any better? He was a 7th Round pick that stuck on the roster for 2-years. And he had the size you can't teach. Addison is a FA bust, not sure why he is allowed to hang around over a player you drafted and developed. This front office and coaching staff obviously values Addison more than the fans, or they are too stubborn to admit it was a mistake to sign him, restructure, etc. Either way there's not many teams out there that would give up even a 7th round pick for 34 old declining player with his type of salary which is why I hoped at the very least we could have swapped him for a DB or OL veteran at a similar age/price. Regarding Johnson, yes it would have been great to keep him but aside from ST how many snaps was he going to see on this team at DE this year? So getting a 6th rounder (which could be closer to a 5th rounder in reality depending on where the Panthers finish) is not a bad deal vs cutting him outright for nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 1 minute ago, HappyDays said: I am somewhere between Gunner's and your view on this. I do think special teams matters, to a point. When the coaches say Taiwan Jones is an elite gunner I take their word for it. That makes him worth a roster spot because he does prevent actual yards gained. Neither Kumerow or Jones are going to contribute on offense at all. It's hard to see Kumerow ever seeing the field with this WR depth. So between the two I take the better gunner which is Jones. The Bills led the league in going 4 WR from scrimmage where as mostly only have one RB on the field on any given play WR's are also subbed in and out after making a long run down the field so I don't think its a stretch at all to see Kumerow playing. Barring a mid game injury, I agree Jones will never play on offense. What I am waiting to see is if this season the Bills decide to keep 3 ACTUAL RB active on gameday (sorry but don't can Jones a real RB) to have the speed factor there when/if needed. That also could factor into not keeping Jones IMO if they deside to make Bierda active on Sundays Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 Wow a lot of hard feelings about Johnson getting dealt. Never knew he has such a contingent of fans. He only got to hold the Duke Williams mantle for a few days 😄 Maybe its a mix of the Addison dislike too. I'm not a big Addison fan either, but making a trade takes 2 parties. It's no wonder a team was more interested in a younger, cheaper guy with 2 years left on his contract, than an older more expensive one with only one and a $2million dollar bonus due. (looked at over the cap) As for cutting Addison him, it looks like a nasty hit post June 1, and OBD would rather get something than nothing. I'd inactivate him and keep him fresh in the event he needs to fill in as an injury replacement, or if one of the young guys is struggling really badly. Given the situation, getting a 6th for my #7DE is a solid move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 1 minute ago, ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin said: Wow a lot of hard feelings about Johnson getting dealt. Never knew he has such a contingent of fans. He only got to hold the Duke Williams mantle for a few days 😄 Maybe its a mix of the Addison dislike too. I'm not a big Addison fan either, but making a trade takes 2 parties. It's no wonder a team was more interested in a younger, cheaper guy with 2 years left on his contract, than an older more expensive one with only one and a $2million dollar bonus due. (looked at over the cap) As for cutting Addison him, it looks like a nasty hit post June 1, and OBD would rather get something than nothing. I'd inactivate him and keep him fresh in the event he needs to fill in as an injury replacement, or if one of the young guys is struggling really badly. Given the situation, getting a 6th for my #7DE is a solid move. I certainly agree Johnson had more trade value than Addison. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceman_16 Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 15 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said: I don't think the Bills hand was forced on this. Don't give T Jones a roster spot, cut Addison. Seems short-sighted to trade a 24-year old for a 6th Round pick. How does that make the team any better? He was a 7th Round pick that stuck on the roster for 2-years. And he had the size you can't teach. Addison is a FA bust, not sure why he is allowed to hang around over a player you drafted and developed. Because of his contract....simple enough. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat68 Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 9 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said: I don't think the Bills hand was forced on this. Don't give T Jones a roster spot, cut Addison. Seems short-sighted to trade a 24-year old for a 6th Round pick. How does that make the team any better? He was a 7th Round pick that stuck on the roster for 2-years. And he had the size you can't teach. Addison is a FA bust, not sure why he is allowed to hang around over a player you drafted and developed. I disagree. Pass rusher is one of the easier transitions from college to pros on the defensive side of the ball. Johnson does not bring anything to the table as a pass rusher entering year 4. Mario Addison in the worst season of his career was significantly better Johnson. I don't see Johnson as anything more than a core special teamer. With Neal, Jones and Mykevich(sp) how many core teams players can you keep? Give me DEs who can rush the passer, the one they cant they snagged a 6th rder in return seems like a net gain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 2 hours ago, Process said: Interesting. Johnson has looked good, would much rather have traded or cut Addison, who at this point brings very little to the table. At the end of the day someone had to go, so can't be mad at getting a draft pick out of it. I suspect this trade has the potential to wind up like the Teller trade where we kept Spencer Long. We traded a young player under rookie contract and kept an expensive vet for 1 season. The young player blossomed. But looked at in the context of that pre-season, it made sense - the Bills were determined to upgrade at center, Morse was out with concussion, Long had actually played C in the NFL so if Morse got concussed again he gave us an NFL-proven option. It turned out that Morse played all 16 games and Long only came in for part of 2 games (one mid season and the finale). I think the Bills are determined to upgrade their pass rush without sacrificing too much in the run game, and Johnson sat on the bench against the Ravens. The price of that decision is keeping an overpriced, underperforming vet around for a year 🤷♂️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 3 minutes ago, Mat68 said: I disagree. Pass rusher is one of the easier transitions from college to pros on the defensive side of the ball. Johnson does not bring anything to the table as a pass rusher entering year 4. Mario Addison in the worst season of his career was significantly better Johnson. I don't see Johnson as anything more than a core special teamer. With Neal, Jones and Mykevich(sp) how many core teams players can you keep? Give me DEs who can rush the passer, the one they cant they snagged a 6th rder in return seems like a net gain. He is entering year 3, not year 4. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 18 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: It is fewer snaps, I get that, but special teams errors can be momentum swings they can be easy scores, they are stolen possessions. Just looking at the numbers and saying "ah well it isn't a third of the game numerically" misses the point for me. Nobody is arguing it is as important as offense or defense but it isn't an after thought and if you treat it like that you will suffer. And it isn't just me that thinks this.... a lot of the best coaches in the NFL do too. I don't have the Bills 2018 special team yards given up to hand but it was a lot and it hurt the team. Equally I know Roberts had the best overall return numbers across two disciplines in the league last year. That helped the team. I agree with what you say in theory and application. That said, they keep Matekevitch strictly for ST. Neal is a star on ST. A couple other Bills are very good. They use starters Poyer and Hyde and others too. Good to great ST guys are important as you say, but there is an overdoing it point too. Especially when these great guys make seven tackles a year and we now have two kickers that lessen ST needs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 I’m pretty sure it wasnt either Bam Johnson or Mario Addison. Addison was staying either way. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 Interesting theory from Joe: Quote I went through my notes & found it interesting that DE Darryl Johnson was not on the opening KR unit vs. GB and perhaps a hint. The Bills used a lot of players that are likely to figure into the 2021 roster: RB Taiwan Jones, FB Reggie Gilliam, WR Marquez Stevenson, WR Jake Kumerow, TE Jake Hollister, DE AJ Epenesa, LB A.J. Klein, LB Tyler Matakevich, LB Andre Smith, CB Siran Neal, S Damar Hamlin 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwai San Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 Folks - get the "They are not going to cut Addison" through your heads. Not. Gonna. Happen. Deal with it..... Go BILLS! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I think the Bills are determined to upgrade their pass rush without sacrificing too much in the run game, and Johnson sat on the bench against the Ravens. The price of that decision is keeping an overpriced, underperforming vet around for a year 🤷♂️ Bam's struggles against the run are an underrated part of it, agreed. I actually think in limited snaps he did flash as a rusher. He struggled with lane discipline in the run game and with Obada struggling in the same facet I can see the argument that one had to go. It is almost like we traded Johnson for Obada and a 6th. 1 minute ago, Kwai San said: Folks - get the "They are not going to cut Addison" through your heads. Not. Gonna. Happen. Deal with it..... Go BILLS! Oh I know they are not. Doesn't mean I don't believe that they should Then again I didn't believe they should have signed a clearly declining player in the first place. Edited August 30, 2021 by GunnerBill 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 Personally I hope Obada makes it......he is versitile and the potential there for pass rush is high....... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 Glad they got something for one of the DEs. I’m not happy about Johnson being traded but I’d rather Johnson than Obada. I wish it was addison but I had always thought that Beane had a talk with addison, when he took his slight pay cut, and told him he’d have a spot on the team. If he took the pay cut. I believe the same to be true for Vernon butler. Beanes word is bond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 That will work. A 6th for a player likely on the outs. got the extra pick. I think there will be a couple more to come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBonhamRocks Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 6 minutes ago, MAJBobby said: That will work. A 6th for a player likely on the outs. got the extra pick. I think there will be a couple more to come. My bet: Bobby Hart to the Bears for a 7th Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 13 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Bam's struggles against the run are an underrated part of it, agreed. I actually think in limited snaps he did flash as a rusher. He struggled with lane discipline in the run game and with Obada struggling in the same facet I can see the argument that one had to go. It is almost like we traded Johnson for Obada and a 6th. I had that thought 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rochesterfan Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said: Shaq is the opposite of a glue-guy...........Dolphins and Texans figured that out. Not easily motivated......not dedicated to his craft........he upped his effort for his contract run in 2019..........the Bills were wise not to re-invest in him.........he has otherwise been pretty much the same JAG in every other season of his career. He doesn't play teams either and really doesn't have much athletic upside left. Johnson was much cheaper and has a year of that cheap team control left (well, technically Shaq does too if you want to pay that guy $9M in 2022).........he was definitely worth getting back the 5th rounder they used to get him at least. Yes, but Shaq will play 40% of your defensive snaps at a premium position. He is overpaid compared to the contract, but he earned that contract by at least putting up 1 good year. Johnson as a late 7th round pick has nearly given nothing on the defensive side, but did some nice things on special teams. I image he will get more playing time in Carolina, but currently he has 2 sacks in 450 career defensive snaps - so nothing that jumps out. The fact that you can flip that for a round earlier pick is not bad. My guess is Johnson was not the guy Beane necessarily wanted to move (much like Teller), but he was the guy with the most potential to move. Addison was going to be tough to move and Obada was an option, but Carolina was not making that deal - so my guess is he got value and took it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbillievable Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 I guess you can have too many pass rushers... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 11 minutes ago, JohnBonhamRocks said: My bet: Bobby Hart to the Bears for a 7th Well Justin Fields likes to run anyway 😃 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Otreply Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 An example of a special teams mainstay getting sent off, I mentioned this could happen in some other thread a few days back, got a little pushback on that thought, maybe we are to a point where we don’t keep fringe guys on the roster just for STs abilities, shows the growth of the overall team in a positive way. Go Bills!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warcodered Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 5 minutes ago, Don Otreply said: An example of a special teams mainstay getting sent off, I mentioned this could happen in some other thread a few days back, got a little pushback on that thought, maybe we are to a point where we don’t keep fringe guys on the roster just for STs abilities, shows the growth of the overall team in a positive way. Go Bills!!! I agree wholeheartedly! I’d rather then take young STers that might be or develop into contributors in the other two phases. Even long snapper seems like a bit of a wasted spot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 Hate to see him go, but I think it's clear that this means they weren't keeping him anyway. A 6th isn't much, but it's something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickelCity Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 37 minutes ago, NewEra said: Glad they got something for one of the DEs. I’m not happy about Johnson being traded but I’d rather Johnson than Obada. I wish it was addison but I had always thought that Beane had a talk with addison, when he took his slight pay cut, and told him he’d have a spot on the team. If he took the pay cut. I believe the same to be true for Vernon butler. Beanes word is bond. Keeping Butler would be a mistake imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Otreply Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 3 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: I agree wholeheartedly! I’d rather then take young STers that might be or develop into contributors in the other two phases. Even long snapper seems like a bit of a wasted spot. Well, yes, that would be good, but Epenesa needs some work at long snapper, 😁👍 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 27 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said: Johnson as a late 7th round pick has nearly given nothing on the defensive side, but did some nice things on special teams. I image he will get more playing time in Carolina, but currently he has 2 sacks in 450 career defensive snaps - so nothing that jumps out. The fact that you can flip that for a round earlier pick is not bad. My guess is Johnson was not the guy Beane necessarily wanted to move (much like Teller), but he was the guy with the most potential to move. Addison was going to be tough to move and Obada was an option, but Carolina was not making that deal - so my guess is he got value and took it. I disagree that he wasn't the guy they wanted to move. If they were getting maybe a 3rd or a 4th or something, then yeah, make the trade even if it makes your lineup a bit weaker. For a 6th, though? I don't think so. It's not a big enough return to get you to get rid of a guy you'd like to keep, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 3 minutes ago, NickelCity said: Keeping Butler would be a mistake imo. I was hoping that we would’ve cut him instead of having him take a pay cut after last season. Once he took a pay cut, I’m assuming he’s safe. His play was better at the end of last season. I feel his value is that he is versatile enough to play the 1 and 3. I wouldn’t be upset either way, cut him or keep him, I just think that he’s safe and Beane will stick to his word 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draconator Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 10 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Hucklebuck Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 1 hour ago, FilthyBeast said: This front office and coaching staff obviously values Addison more than the fans, or they are too stubborn to admit it was a mistake to sign him, restructure, etc. Either way there's not many teams out there that would give up even a 7th round pick for 34 old declining player with his type of salary which is why I hoped at the very least we could have swapped him for a DB or OL veteran at a similar age/price. Regarding Johnson, yes it would have been great to keep him but aside from ST how many snaps was he going to see on this team at DE this year? So getting a 6th rounder (which could be closer to a 5th rounder in reality depending on where the Panthers finish) is not a bad deal vs cutting him outright for nothing. Again, keep Johnson and don't hand Taiwan Jones a roster spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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