Playbooks staying and leaving with Daboll

[SectionC3]

13 minutes ago, Returntoglory said:

With the increased interest in Brian Daboll around the league and the near certainty that he will be interviewed for a HC position after the season, should OBD try to
sign him to a long-term deal before the season ends?

 

Now I know we can block any lateral move to another team, the hard part is a HC offer.

 

Is there a viable AND legal way around this?

My concern is the investment that he has out in with JA and the trust that has developed between the two.

I would hate to see a regression with a new Offensive Coordinator that could come in from outside the organization.

Sure there's a legal way.  Get him to sign a contract that precludes a move.  It's private law between the parties.  Everyone has a price.  But he'd probably never do it.  So the point is a non-starter.  

[wjag]

Who says he wants to be a HC?  Maybe, just maybe,  he likes being the Buffalo Bills OC.  HC'ing comes with the glory, but a whole lot of misery too.  Most NFL HC jobs end badly.  Disrupt the family to live in a town you don't pick.    See just about every Patriots OC/DC that has left the Belichicking Hive.

[Chandler#81]

Just now, wjag said:

Who says he wants to be a HC?  Maybe, just maybe,  he likes being the Buffalo Bills OC.  HC'ing comes with the glory, but a whole lot of misery too.  Most NFL HC jobs end badly.  Disrupt the family to live in a town you don't pick.    See just about every Patriots OC/DC that has left the Belichicking Hive.

It has been more than inferred by both Beane & McDermott, while hearing nothing from Brian. 

1+1+0= inferred. 😢

[Bferra13]

As someone said earlier on a different thread, our best chance to keep him is make the Super Bowl and hope other teams don't have that much patience to wait for him to become free.

[BuffaloBobs]

It would be foolish to try and stop him from leaving.

 

If the staff is serious about keeping him, letting him know that he's valued and that we're willing to sweeten his compensation and extend his contract if he decides to stay or doesn't want a Head Coaching opportunity is about all you can do. No contract is going to keep someone who wants to be a Head Coach from leaving if one of the other thirty-one teams comes calling and they want to make the move.

 

If anything, I would be looking at who on the staff would take his place if he decides to leave, along with which positional coaches would be priorities to retain, so we can try to keep them before they jump ship with Daboll.

[TBBills]

20 minutes ago, Returntoglory said:

With the increased interest in Brian Daboll around the league and the near certainty that he will be interviewed for a HC position after the season, should OBD try to
sign him to a long-term deal before the season ends?

 

Now I know we can block any lateral move to another team, the hard part is a HC offer.

 

Is there a viable AND legal way around this?

My concern is the investment that he has out in with JA and the trust that has developed between the two.

I would hate to see a regression with a new Offensive Coordinator that could come in from outside the organization.

Lol I think Josh will be fine.

[Mango]

God, we have so many "What happens if Daboll leaves, is there a way to keep him?" threads. 

[PJBrown7]

Let’s not forget that he went to Saint Francis high school and grew up in Hamburg. My hometown! He has family in the area still. If he gets a head-coaching job great for him. But we don’t know that there may be is a chance that he likes being the offensive coordinator for the team he grew up watching and living in the area where his family is living and where he grew up. He may be just fine staying here for a while.

[Chuck Wagon]

If he gets a HC job, good for him!

 

Having an offensive core that was a stepping stone for a HC job should allow for plenty of options on replacements being available.

[TPS]

1 minute ago, PJBrown7 said:

Let’s not forget that he went to Saint Francis high school and grew up in Hamburg. My hometown! He has family in the area still. If he gets a head-coaching job great for him. But we don’t know that there may be is a chance that he likes being the offensive coordinator for the team he grew up watching and living in the area where his family is living and where he grew up. He may be just fine staying here for a while.

Yeah, I think he'd love to be a part of the team that finally brought home the Lombardi trophy. It would take a great off until then...

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 12/14/2020 at 10:28 AM, Not at the table Karlos said:

Daboll has been putting together a staff and ESPN had something out last week that said he’s up for a few jobs. He’s most likely gone after this year. With the progression Allen has had everyone is going to want him. 

 

Say more about this.  Who's on tap as his staff?

[JohnNord]

The better the Bills do in the postseason, the greater the chances are he leaving.  It’s a good problem to have!

 

With that said there are two ways to look at a potential OC opening:

 

- On one hand, if Daboll isn’t back, you want the most stability possible for Josh.  That would mean Ken Dorsey as OC.  He was interviewed in 2017 and since then he’s part of the team that did a stellar job with Josh.  He also has a great relationship with Josh which is what a lot of great QB’s want from a QB Coach.

 

- On the other hand, the Bills have a Top 10 QB (at worst), a Top 10 WR (at worst), and a stable HC and GM with a track record of success.  Could this opening be, perhaps, one of the most coveted jobs this offseason?  
 

It’s the whole continuity vs. risk debate

[Rigotz]

Silver lining if Daboll leaves: we can probably get any offense coordinator we want. 

O-Coordinators would kill to work with Josh and our offense. 

[JohnNord]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Say more about this.  Who's on tap as his staff?

Could he possibly take Ken Dorsey with him as OC!?!?!?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, JohnNord said:

Could he possibly take Ken Dorsey with him as OC!?!?!?

 

That, we can block.

[BITE ME]

5 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

Could he possibly take Ken Dorsey with him as OC!?!?!?

 

Ken Dorsey would probably become the OC.

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Say more about this.  Who's on tap as his staff?

 

Matt Patricia (as DC) and Chad O'Shea are the two names I have been told are on his wish list. 

[JimBob2232]

Ya know - it would hurt.  But anyone who has ever managed people will know that your greatest legacy is having your top talent go - and be successful on their own.  Then backfilling them with another high talented person.  Thats the point we're at here.  And thats awesome!  This type of attrition is going to happen.  Embrace it.  The alternative is nobody is interested in our staff.  I'd rather have this problem.  That means we can attract the best too. 

[BADOLBILZ]

On 12/8/2020 at 1:11 PM, matter2003 said:

 

Roman has been the opposite in his offensive trends throughout his career...at every stop his offense regressed over time not progressed...in effect his best year was his first year in most places with the same players.

 

 

 

 

If you mean that Daboll usually gets fired immediately after one season as an NFL OC.......yes different than Roman.

 

If he were the Bills original OC choice in 2017.......with that garbage talent at WR and Tyrod throwing to them..........he'd have been 0-4 at NFL OC jobs.

 

He landed in a better spot than previous jobs because of the built in excuse of a rookie QB and having a HC who would have looked incompetent if he fired two straight OC's after one season.    He got the offense within shouting distance of average in 2019 after a dismal 2018 and now he has a QB and WR corps who can make most any of his calls look good.

 

I think what you see with Daboll is a solid coordinator............but he's not going to get the job done with modest talent.........he's not at that level.   

 

But what kind of offensive mind/play caller he is isn't going to determine if he is a good HC anyway.    Different skillset.   

 

From my understanding where Roman is lacking is the leadership and social skills to do well in HC interviews.  

[JohnNord]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

That, we can block.

Technically we could... but given the fact that QB Coach to OC is a pretty big promotion and the fact that most franchises frown on blocking upward mobility, I have a hard time thinking this team would stop Dorsey if he wanted to go

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Matt Patricia (as DC) and Chad O'Shea are the two names I have been told are on his wish list. 

Daboll with Patricia as his DC sounds absolutely doomed to failure lol

[John from Riverside]

On 12/8/2020 at 9:27 AM, GunnerBill said:

Dorsey will have the playbook they are using this year. As will McDermott and all the players. Daboll goes and Dorsey is promoted I am sure he will add some stuff and take some stuff out but that happens year to year anyway. 

 

They are not going to rip up everything they have run this year. 

Let’s hope the Dorsey can figure out the way to add a running game to what is a very potent receiving gameLet’s hope the Dorsey can figure out the way to add a running game to what is a very potent receiving game

[machine gun kelly]

On 12/8/2020 at 12:35 PM, Mr. WEO said:

Why would it matter if Daboll "left with the playbook"?  They are well known by the Offense by now.  

Well said oh great Weo.  There is no secret sauce.  Everyone in the league has tape on us for three years and at a minimum this year.  It’s how they execute and when they call what at what time against which opponent.  It’s the same on defense.  It’s not like McD has some magic that is so unique to him, rather he has a knack for knowing what to call when, and a way of diagnosing what is needed at the right time with Frazier.

[blacklabel]

While they have an identity as a downfield passing offense, Daboll's system requires them to be able to do a little bit of everything. That's what they do up in New England where he learned it.  He wants to be able to shift gears based on the defense they're facing that week. If Daboll exits for a head coaching gig then I could see Dorsey taking over as OC.

 

The biggest concern for me would be the play calling. Dorsey has input on play designs and surely he'd keep things he likes/knows they execute well, as well as introduce his own stuff and add tweaks to other things, thus creating a playbook that'd be his own. But that's different than calling those plays during the game. I really feel like Daboll has been killing it with the play calls lately. He just seems to dial up the right plays at the right time over and over again. We talk about Josh maturing but Daboll and the offense as a whole has matured right along with him. The consistency they've had over these last three years has been a major contribution to their success. So...you wonder if they would go with Dorsey to replace Daboll considering it'd be Dorsey's first time as a play caller. But, you gotta figure he's picked up a lot from Daboll by now and it's not like we're in the man's head or know his thought process but you assume he's working towards moving up the ladder so he's likely making note of things he sees so he can be prepared for a promotion. 

 

But yeah, the play calls would be my concern. Daboll has been really good. I wanna say that Daboll might be one more year away from a HC gig but then you see how Josh has played and you gotta think there are teams out there saying, "Look at what he did with the Wyoming kid who only hit 54% of his passes coming out of college" and they're thinking he can do the same with a kid they have on the roster already or one they plan to draft. If I'm Sean McDermott though, and the Jets call, I'll say, "Sorry, Brian is unavailable." Because eff the Jets and their stupid faces. 

Edited December 16, 2020 by blacklabel

[Southern_Bills]

Just remember playboys evolve week by week to keep defenses off balance. So the new OC regardless if Dabolls playback stays (which it will) has to be good enough to constantly adjust successfully. 

[Kelly the Dog]

On 12/14/2020 at 9:45 AM, Limeaid said:

Dorey's experience:

 

NFL QB 2003-2008

CFL QB 2010

Carolina Panthers Scout 2011–2012 

Carolina Panthers QB Coach 2013–2017
Buffalo Bills QB Coach 2019–present
 

Does that look someone who can take over OC role?  Bobby Johnson actually has more varied experience than Ken Dorsey.

 

The Bills need to find an OC candidate who do not do a Coach McD (Dump out baby with bath water) who will retain those coaches who do not leave with Brian Daboll and not need large changes in players to make his offense work.  Stability is the theme here.  I think the Pittsburgh model is best where coaches handle different parts on coaching before being promoted to coordinator.

 

That's a lot of experience. 

[HappyDays]

One thing I will miss with Daboll is the trick plays. He actually has an incredible number of those that he always pulls out at the right time. Defenses have a lot to think about when we line up. I'm not sure our next OC will replicate that.

 

But otherwise I don't think we'll have any trouble finding a good replacement. Every ambitious offensive coach in the league would kill to design an offense around Josh Allen and Stefon Diggs and Cole Beasley. Continuity is good but I'm not stressing over it.

[Kelly the Dog]

6 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

One thing I will miss with Daboll is the trick plays. He actually has an incredible number of those that he always pulls out at the right time. Defenses have a lot to think about when we line up. I'm not sure our next OC will replicate that.

 

But otherwise I don't think we'll have any trouble finding a good replacement. Every ambitious offensive coach in the league would kill to design an offense around Josh Allen and Stefon Diggs and Cole Beasley. Continuity is good but I'm not stressing over it.

I would think almost anyone would keep the offense as is, and just add any kind of tweaks or special plays or complementary concepts they want to what is there. It's almost impossible to imagine that McD and Beane will conduct interviews or have Zoom calls with any prospective coordinator hire and even listen to someone that wants to come in and change everything to their system. It would be foolish. 

[billsbackto81]

On 12/8/2020 at 1:08 PM, Jauronimo said:

That was a Rooney Rule interview. Nothing more.

Mickey?

[Kelly the Dog]

49 minutes ago, billsbackto81 said:

Mickey?

Andy. 

[Matt_In_NH]

The NFL rarely sees a qb get “developed” like Allen has.   He has gotten so much better year 1 to

year 3 to year 3.    Not only that but during the year he has gotten better.  Daboll is getting credit for that right or wrong and will get offers in my opinion.   

[GETTOTHE50]

WE GOTTA WIN THE SUPERBOWL NOW 

[Big Turk]

23 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

If you mean that Daboll usually gets fired immediately after one season as an NFL OC.......yes different than Roman.

 

If he were the Bills original OC choice in 2017.......with that garbage talent at WR and Tyrod throwing to them..........he'd have been 0-4 at NFL OC jobs.

 

He landed in a better spot than previous jobs because of the built in excuse of a rookie QB and having a HC who would have looked incompetent if he fired two straight OC's after one season.    He got the offense within shouting distance of average in 2019 after a dismal 2018 and now he has a QB and WR corps who can make most any of his calls look good.

 

I think what you see with Daboll is a solid coordinator............but he's not going to get the job done with modest talent.........he's not at that level.   

 

But what kind of offensive mind/play caller he is isn't going to determine if he is a good HC anyway.    Different skillset.   

 

From my understanding where Roman is lacking is the leadership and social skills to do well in HC interviews.  

 

Prior to working with Allen Daboll might have had the all time worst offensive talent to work with in his 4 NFL stints of any OC in the history of the league...it was just brutal. I don't know what you would expect from someone that 4 times had 30th or below ranked talent(or 28th or below in some cases since I don't think the 2 expansion teams were in yet)  to work with including a zero at the QB position. I mean at the end of the day you can only coach them up so much or design so much. He didn't have mediocre talent, he had near league worst talent.

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, matter2003 said:

 

Prior to working with Allen Daboll might have had the all time worst offensive talent to work with in his 4 NFL stints of any OC in the history of the league...it was just brutal. I don't know what you would expect from someone that 4 times had 30th or below ranked talent(or 28th or below in some cases since I don't think the 2 expansion teams were in yet)  to work with including a zero at the QB position. I mean at the end of the day you can only coach them up so much or design so much. He didn't have mediocre talent, he had near league worst talent.

 

 

So I guess you are saying that the perception that he is such a good OC could just be because he has top offensive talent?(because he was a bad OC with bad talent)

 

You might have a point.

 

The Bills have a top 5 QB and receiving corps and a good, expensive offensive line.

 

But they are only 10th in yardage and 9th in scoring and tied for 11th most giveaways.

 

In Roman's one full year in Buffalo(2015) they finished 12th in yardage and 10th in scoring and 20th most giveaways.

 

We are all pleased with the improvement but they aren't setting the league ablaze offensively just yet.........and there is reason to wonder if Daboll's loss would be that important.

 

Maybe Daboll is just another Charlie Weiss and his replacement would be an upgrade.

Edited December 16, 2020 by BADOLBILZ

[Big Turk]

7 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

So I guess you are saying that the perception that he is such a good OC could just be because he has top offensive talent?(because he was a bad OC with bad talent)

 

You might have a point.

 

The Bills have a top 5 QB and receiving corps and a good, expensive offensive line.

 

But they are only 10th in yardage and 9th in scoring and tied for 11th most giveaways.

 

In Roman's one full year in Buffalo(2015) they finished 12th in yardage and 10th in scoring and 20th most giveaways.

 

We are all pleased with the improvement but they aren't setting the league ablaze offensively just yet.........and there is reason to wonder if Daboll's loss would be that important.

 

Maybe Daboll is just another Charlie Weiss and his replacement would be an upgrade.

 

No I am saying no matter how good a coach you are, at the end of the day you can only do but so much with terrible players.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

So I guess you are saying that the perception that he is such a good OC could just be because he has top offensive talent?(because he was a bad OC with bad talent)

You might have a point.

 

The Bills have a top 5 QB and receiving corps and a good, expensive offensive line.

But they are only 10th in yardage and 9th in scoring and tied for 11th most giveaways.

 

In Roman's one full year in Buffalo(2015) they finished 12th in yardage and 10th in scoring and 20th most giveaways.

We are all pleased with the improvement but they aren't setting the league ablaze offensively just yet.........and there is reason to wonder if Daboll's loss would be that important.

Maybe Daboll is just another Charlie Weiss and his replacement would be an upgrade.

 

Maybe.  I remember when we were all verklempt that Pettine was leaving to be HC of the Browns, and it turned out Schwartz was an upgrade.

 

But I also think Daboll himself has developed, both as a play designer, a play caller, and a Leader of Men - certainly since 2009-2012 which were his previous OC stints.  People can grow and improve over the years....even just in the last 3 years.

 

I've been watching his pressers fairly regularly from 2018 to now and to me, differences in how he responds to questions probably indicate a difference in how he relates to players and assistant coaches.   He used to throw players under the bus a bit in his pressers.  Now he doesn't.  Josh tells a story from 2018 preseason where he threw to the back of the endzone when he was supposed to throw to the RB in the flat and Daboll started screaming in his helmet and was red in the face and went on for 5 minutes, said he came to the sideline and Daboll wound down then thought about it some more and started all over again.  Daboll seems to have a different approach now.  I think it's just possible he's learned something from McDermott there both about how to relate to players, and how to handle the press. 

 

In 2018, I was "WTF was that?" all the time with his play design in general and his run play design in particular, and sometimes with the play call for down and distance.  In 2019, not nearly as much so and what there was, was usually his personnel choice like having DiMarco or Lee Smith run a route.  I try to separate it out, and I don't think it's just that they're being executed better. 

 

I think Daboll has been working just as hard as some of his players to become a better coach, play designer and play caller, just over the last 3 years.

[GunnerBill]

27 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Maybe.  I remember when we were all verklempt that Pettine was leaving to be HC of the Browns, and it turned out Schwartz was an upgrade.

 

But I also think Daboll himself has developed, both as a play designer, a play caller, and a Leader of Men - certainly since 2009-2012 which were his previous OC stints.  People can grow and improve over the years....even just in the last 3 years.

 

I've been watching his pressers fairly regularly from 2018 to now and to me, differences in how he responds to questions probably indicate a difference in how he relates to players and assistant coaches.   He used to throw players under the bus a bit in his pressers.  Now he doesn't.  Josh tells a story from 2018 preseason where he threw to the back of the endzone when he was supposed to throw to the RB in the flat and Daboll started screaming in his helmet and was red in the face and went on for 5 minutes, said he came to the sideline and Daboll wound down then thought about it some more and started all over again.  Daboll seems to have a different approach now.  I think it's just possible he's learned something from McDermott there both about how to relate to players, and how to handle the press. 

 

In 2018, I was "WTF was that?" all the time with his play design in general and his run play design in particular, and sometimes with the play call for down and distance.  In 2019, not nearly as much so and what there was, was usually his personnel choice like having DiMarco or Lee Smith run a route.  I try to separate it out, and I don't think it's just that they're being executed better. 

 

I think Daboll has been working just as hard as some of his players to become a better coach, play designer and play caller, just over the last 3 years.

 

I think he has definitely improved. What will be interesting is if as a Head Coach he calls his own plays. Because I don't think he is Kyle Shanahan or Sean McVay in terms of impact as a play designer or play caller and I tend to think unless you are you should hire an OC and let him call it. 

20 hours ago, Kelly the Dog said:

 

That's a lot of experience. 

 

Indeed. 7 seasons as an NFL Quarterback coach is a lot. If Dabes does go though don't sleep on Chad Hall as an internal candidate. Diggs was raving about him again the other day and I am led to believe he is an exceptionally smart cookie.

[DrDawkinstein]

21 hours ago, Southern_Bills said:

Just remember playboys evolve week by week to keep defenses off balance. So the new OC regardless if Dabolls playback stays (which it will) has to be good enough to constantly adjust successfully. 

 

This is a helluva first post, on playbooks.

[Saint Doug]

34 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

 

No I am saying no matter how good a coach you are, at the end of the day you can only do but so much with terrible players.

True. But the same goes with having elite players. The Bills are stacked at WR, with one of them being elite and Josh has elite talent. So, is it the players who are elevating Daboll, or is it Daboll elevating the players? He’s never shown that ability in his past stints.
 

Plus, it’s not like we are setting the NFL ablaze on offense. We’re #10 overall, with the passing offense doing all the lifting. Our rushing offense is something that needs a lot of improvement.
 

I don’t see a big drop off occurring if Daboll leaves. I also don’t see him repeating his success somewhere else without a great QB prospect (ie him coaching Darnold wouldn’t have made him a great QB) and enough talent to surround him. He better be very choosy in where he goes, not another Pettine/Browns situation. 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Maybe.  I remember when we were all verklempt that Pettine was leaving to be HC of the Browns, and it turned out Schwartz was an upgrade.

 

But I also think Daboll himself has developed, both as a play designer, a play caller, and a Leader of Men - certainly since 2009-2012 which were his previous OC stints.  People can grow and improve over the years....even just in the last 3 years.

 

I've been watching his pressers fairly regularly from 2018 to now and to me, differences in how he responds to questions probably indicate a difference in how he relates to players and assistant coaches.   He used to throw players under the bus a bit in his pressers.  Now he doesn't.  Josh tells a story from 2018 preseason where he threw to the back of the endzone when he was supposed to throw to the RB in the flat and Daboll started screaming in his helmet and was red in the face and went on for 5 minutes, said he came to the sideline and Daboll wound down then thought about it some more and started all over again.  Daboll seems to have a different approach now.  I think it's just possible he's learned something from McDermott there both about how to relate to players, and how to handle the press. 

 

In 2018, I was "WTF was that?" all the time with his play design in general and his run play design in particular, and sometimes with the play call for down and distance.  In 2019, not nearly as much so and what there was, was usually his personnel choice like having DiMarco or Lee Smith run a route.  I try to separate it out, and I don't think it's just that they're being executed better. 

 

I think Daboll has been working just as hard as some of his players to become a better coach, play designer and play caller, just over the last 3 years.

 

 

Yes I was one of those not pleased about losing Pettine.

 

Daboll might just be improving.......that's good NOW.......but I'm not sure that thinking he is just a slow learner makes for a very promising HC outlook.

 

One of the important parallels I see between Weis and Daboll as EP OC's is that Weis was heavily (over)credited for making Tom Brady.......and that "QB guru" thing really is the main sales pitch with Daboll.........he isn't actually blowing the doors off the league with his 2020 offense there is just the perception that Josh Allen was a very difficult project to tackle.    

 

I suspect the likelihood that Allen also proves to have been the much bigger variable in that OC/QB equation is much more likely than Daboll going from a thrice-fired NFL OC to a stud HC.    

 

He would be the first of that kind.