Can someone explain why Browns catch wasn’t a TD?

[The Wiz]

2 hours ago, whatdrought said:

Your weekly "Refs have been drinking" play. 

Hell I probably had more than the refs and could see it was a TD. 

[MPT]

2 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

you accept a bunch of rules being different at the goal line than the sideline 

 

This isn't really a debate about the rules. The rules say that was a touchdown. This is a discussion about an official's misinterpretation of the rules. 

[BobbyC81]

2 hours ago, BigdaddyinOrlando said:

I can’t, looked good to me, two feet in and down possession across the line

So, they’re saying to complete the catch, he had to be tackled to the ground  and at that point the ball wasn’t over the goal line?   They are infuriating.  The replay system is supposed to get the call right and they frequently do not.  They also need to change the rule that a team needs to challenge if the call on the field is not a TD.  If it’s a play that might be a score, it should be reviewed the same as if the refs ruled a score on the field.

 

I’ll have to maybe watch the game again but I think the Bills were lucky to avoid unsportsmanlike conduct penalties a few times during skirmishes.  There was one where Taiwan Jones definitely threw a punch and a flag was thrown but then they just called a penalty on the Raiders for illegal block.  Another time, it looked like Norman thrust his hand into someone’s face mask and I’ve seen that called before.  And there was another with Diggs, where it looked like he took a swing and it took a couple teammates to get him out of there.

[Sherlock Holmes]

2 hours ago, Southern Bills Fan said:

He clearly had possession with the ball breaking the plane of the goal line. 

Because the refs are cheaters

[Warcodered]

still working on it, no luck so far.

[Codyny13]

Simply baffling calls of late, I’m not sure what to make of these...cost me a fantasy win too. Double atrocious 

[formerlyofCtown]

You will find it with the explanation of why Kroft's catch was an int.

6 minutes ago, Codyny13 said:

Simply baffling calls of late, I’m not sure what to make of these...cost me a fantasy win too. Double atrocious 

The NFL can't allow big market teams to get blown out so easily.  Why wasn't Carr's backward pass a fumble?

[Brennan Huff]

The NFL wants the Raiders to win because they are now in Vegas. When fans are allowed back they want to sell tickets

[Doc]

It's more about renegotiating the TV contracts. 

[BillsCuse]

The NFL's catch rules have been trash and confusing for years.  He had control of the ball with two feet on the ground, while the ball was still in the end zone.  It makes zero sense why it wasn't a TD 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

I don't understand and don't want to understand why that wasn't a TD. 

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

4 hours ago, scuba guy said:

Biggest thing was if you slow it down brown second foot is down and,the ball is over the line worst call was that they spotted the ball outside of the 1 yard line on the next play

This is the most annoying part. If they were going to somehow call that short, the ball needed to be placed literally with the nose all-but touching the goal line.

 

Allen should be sitting at 13 TD, 0 INT right now.

[machine gun kelly]

6 hours ago, billsfan_34 said:

So were the commentators. At the end, one of the bozo’s said..”and Carr is ready to mount a comeback”. The Bills were getting ready to kneel on it.

The commentators made so many mistakes today.  One of them even just because they placed the score at 19-17, when the field goal only brought them to 17-16, and he just parroted it out vs. knowing what is the score and pointing it out.  That’s one example of several where they just weren’t paying attention to the game.

[Bookie Man]

TERRIBLE. 

[JohnNord]

6 hours ago, Southern Bills Fan said:

He clearly had possession with the ball breaking the plane of the goal line. 

I’m still trying to figure out how the Allen pass to Kroft was ruled as an INT last week. 

[billsfan_34]

30 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said:

The commentators made so many mistakes today.  One of them even just because they placed the score at 19-17, when the field goal only brought them to 17-16, and he just parroted it out vs. knowing what is the score and pointing it out.  That’s one example of several where they just weren’t paying attention to the game.

Your right, there was so many gaffs that it became comical. Lets not forget “C. J.” Yeldon. 

[gordong]

Has to be Belichick, Probably intercepted the call to the Booth review guys and said inconclusive, just like last week when he said interception.  👹 

Edited October 5, 2020 by gordong

[Ethan in Cleveland]

7 hours ago, mattynh said:

Honestly I thought there was a judgment call on when possession is established. Two feet and football move.  That was questionable to me.  Which goes to call on field. If it was called a td it would have stayed.  
 

do I think he scored?   Yes I do.  But they are super crazy about not overturning unless it is perfect evidence.  
 

I thought it was a waste of a to.  A second half to which should be treated as gold.   They qb sneaked it in.  Just move on save the to and score the td.  
 

yes. There was some remote chance of something terrible happening by running another play.  But you had to run it anyway. 
 

the going down thing. ....not sure what they were talking about.  

With the fact he double clutched the catch I completely see how the official ruled it on the field. I have no issue with that.  But replay was clear he had possession and the ball broke the plane.

[Matt_In_NH]

7 hours ago, MPT said:

 

You don't need to make a football move if you're already in the end zone. Otherwise toe tap catches in the end zone would always be incomplete. 

Ok but you do have to “complete the catch”.  If you tie tap and then drop

the ball it won’t count.  

[nucci]

8 hours ago, Southern Bills Fan said:

He clearly had possession with the ball breaking the plane of the goal line. 

the ref couldn't even explain it

[Rochesterfan]

6 hours ago, MPT said:

 

So every toe tap catch in the end zone is actually an incomplete pass because they didn't complete the catch until they fell out of bounds? That's not how it works, but that's how they treated this play. The rules aren't as convoluted as people make them out to be; referees just screw them up sometimes. And sometimes, when a team is really lucky, they screw them up three weeks in a row.

 

The toe tap catch in the end zone would be incomplete if they ruled that after the toe tap as he is falling to the ground he bobbled the ball and then after regaining possession his feet were not in the end zone - which is essentially what happened on the Will Fuller TD at the end of the Houston game.

 

Will got both feet down in the end zone and as he fell to the ground with control - the ball hit the ground and moved (showing he had “lost” complete control) and therefore it was incomplete.

 

No go back to the Brown TD.  The ref ruled that he bobbled the ball and regained full control with a knee down in bounds, but the full control was not deemed to have occurred until the ball was just outside the goal line.  It think it is total BS as it is clear he has control and the ball has broken the plane.  The problem is that they have now screwed up replay so bad because they are no longer using logic - they are looking for absolute unquestionably proof - which is a big burden.  Logically - he catches the ball and controls it easily while still across the line, but the burden of proof is at what exact moment does he possess it.  That is difficult and although it seems logical to me that possession was obtained with the ball across the goal line - they ruled that since from every view it is impossible to determine the exact possession point - they stay with the call on the field.

 

It was the same twisted lack of logic on the Int review.  The refs determined that Kroft did not have full control and therefore even though he is on the ground with the ball as it bobbles slightly it is still free.  I do not know how they determined the DB had possession, but because they did and they ruled he never had full possession - it became impossible to overturn.  There was no logic used that Kroft caught the and landed on the ground while being touched and therefore the play was over because the on field refs thought there was movement (and there was slight movement) and they made an illogical call.

 

Then you get the illogical call in the Dolphins game where there was the long catch on Tre’ down to the 1 yard line where the receiver lunges fo the ball gets 2 feet down as he is falling out of bounds and when the ball hits the ground it bounces away - logically it should have been incomplete, but the Refs ruled he had possession 2 feet and a football move tucking the ball and therefore at that moment it was a completed pass and therefore he did not have to maintain control to the ground.

 

There is no logic and the words used matter because that dictates the burden of proof - using things like a football move makes it a catch at that point, or possession was not stablished makes it a different burden of proof.  The issue I have is there is no logic used - replays are just a mess as seen by the number of disagreements between th over the air refs and the replay team.

[Coach Tuesday]

Obviously refs should err on the side of calling touchdowns in close cases since there is automatic review of scoring plays.  By calling no TD they forced McD to burn a challenge.  

[machine gun kelly]

They must have thought he didn’t have complete control of the ball as he was going down.  I thought it was a TD, but then I don’t wear a zebra outfit.

[Rochesterfan]

29 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said:

They must have thought he didn’t have complete control of the ball as he was going down.  I thought it was a TD, but then I don’t wear a zebra outfit.

 

Yep and the Ref was in a terrible position because he was trying to avoid getting run over - so he is outside and back by the 4 yard line and moving backwards - with no view of the ball.  Normally he would get help from another ref on the team, but these guys are not groups that work together - so he was left alone to make a decision.

 

I understand what he saw - and I think his poor positioning made it hard to determine the goal line and the possession point, but that is where replay should logically help, but the new rules for this year - the need for absolute proof makes it tough.  
 

The off season changes to replay now make it way harder to overturn calls because logic isn’t used in making the play.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Rochesterfan

[Not at the table Karlos]

9 hours ago, StHustle said:

 

Yeah that last block in the back they called on the Raiders was super weak.

Lightly brushed against the defenders jersey and a penalty but a play or two after that the raiders center has an actual block in the back right in front of the ref and no call. The refs are wildly inconsistent and they need to start getting fined. 

[ehfeuh57]

9 hours ago, NoSaint said:

you have to complete the catch and when going to the ground that includes landing. 
 

we go through a few of these around the league annually and it’s always the same answer.

but you have to complete the fall. If you bobble going to the ground on the toe tap it’s incomplete. In this case falling back into the field of play he didn’t complete it until out of the end zone. It’s a tough spot and was a close call. 

 

Your right and so very wrong at the same time

 

You have to complete the catch, Sure.

 

But they still always give you the furthest possible point down the field as it pertains to "forward progress" starting with when you begin your catch process in every other scenario up until that very catch.  As long as you are controlling the ball and he had control the whole time. remember there can be slight movement of the ball all the while the receiver can maintain possession.

 

And of course the made up new ruling always seems to happen when its against a Buffalo team.

 

Edited October 5, 2020 by DrDare

[4merper4mer]

2 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

The toe tap catch in the end zone would be incomplete if they ruled that after the toe tap as he is falling to the ground he bobbled the ball and then after regaining possession his feet were not in the end zone - which is essentially what happened on the Will Fuller TD at the end of the Houston game.

 

Will got both feet down in the end zone and as he fell to the ground with control - the ball hit the ground and moved (showing he had “lost” complete control) and therefore it was incomplete.

 

No go back to the Brown TD.  The ref ruled that he bobbled the ball and regained full control with a knee down in bounds, but the full control was not deemed to have occurred until the ball was just outside the goal line.  It think it is total BS as it is clear he has control and the ball has broken the plane.  The problem is that they have now screwed up replay so bad because they are no longer using logic - they are looking for absolute unquestionably proof - which is a big burden.  Logically - he catches the ball and controls it easily while still across the line, but the burden of proof is at what exact moment does he possess it.  That is difficult and although it seems logical to me that possession was obtained with the ball across the goal line - they ruled that since from every view it is impossible to determine the exact possession point - they stay with the call on the field.

 

It was the same twisted lack of logic on the Int review.  The refs determined that Kroft did not have full control and therefore even though he is on the ground with the ball as it bobbles slightly it is still free.  I do not know how they determined the DB had possession, but because they did and they ruled he never had full possession - it became impossible to overturn.  There was no logic used that Kroft caught the and landed on the ground while being touched and therefore the play was over because the on field refs thought there was movement (and there was slight movement) and they made an illogical call.

 

Then you get the illogical call in the Dolphins game where there was the long catch on Tre’ down to the 1 yard line where the receiver lunges fo the ball gets 2 feet down as he is falling out of bounds and when the ball hits the ground it bounces away - logically it should have been incomplete, but the Refs ruled he had possession 2 feet and a football move tucking the ball and therefore at that moment it was a completed pass and therefore he did not have to maintain control to the ground.

 

There is no logic and the words used matter because that dictates the burden of proof - using things like a football move makes it a catch at that point, or possession was not stablished makes it a different burden of proof.  The issue I have is there is no logic used - replays are just a mess as seen by the number of disagreements between th over the air refs and the replay team.

I think Marv was more succinct when he said:

 

Overofficious jerk

[Gugny]

12 hours ago, Southern Bills Fan said:

He clearly had possession with the ball breaking the plane of the goal line. 

 

I, personally, thought it was a TD.  But it was too close to overturn.  Had they called it a TD, it would have stood.  They called it incomplete and it stood.  The ref didn't say it was "confirmed," which indicates it was simply too close to change the call.

[Doc]

7 hours ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

This is the most annoying part. If they were going to somehow call that short, the ball needed to be placed literally with the nose all-but touching the goal line.

 

Allen should be sitting at 13 TD, 0 INT right now.

The ball was actually placed a little less than half a yard away from the goal line.

[chaccof]

12 hours ago, nkreed said:

You are 100% correct of the leading edge (the one closest to the 1 yd line) is the determining factor.  

 

I was just trying to think like a ref in that situation. I wanted to try and figure out a reason for him calling Brown down at the one.

When you figure it out please let us know!   🙂 That play was a real headscratcher.  

[chaccof]

13 hours ago, Livinginthepast said:

It was a clear TD on the first look and on the replay which of course means that it wasn't called a TD on the first look by the goal line official and then not not called a TD by the replay refs in NYC because its the NFL! The Carr fumble was another mystifying call. Clearly it was a fumble. I think the officials tried to squirm out of that one by saying they had blown the whistle before the fumble which if true is just another incompetent call.  Officials also missed a blow to the head on Josh on that play where he hurt his shoulder. Just another day of mediocrity in NFL officiating. Its nice that this years Bills can overcome it. 

When I saw the replay of the Carr play I actually thought it appeared to be an incomplete forward pass, albeit a very weak attempt at a shovel pass.  But then when I heard the ref say that forward progress was stopped I was really confused.  

[wjag]

Gene Steratore called it a TD.  If he doesn't know, how are we as fans supposed to know?

[DrDawkinstein]

Because NFL's NY office hates us. That is the only reason. Same for the non-INT last week.

 

It was a Touchdown.