Nihilarian Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 https://sports.yahoo.com/dolphins-chad-oshea-fired-patriots-offense-too-complex-young-players-nfl-024041937.html According to a report from the Miami Herald, O’Shea was let go by the Dolphins after friction with teaching the Dolphins’ young roster a playbook with the complexities typically seen in Foxborough. Multiple players reportedly supported the decision to swap out O’Shea for veteran coordinator Chan Gailey. From the Herald: One player described the situation on offense last season as a “[expletive] show,” noting O’Shea tried to teach an offense that was too complex for a young team and that teaching/instruction during film study was a “disaster.” As one player noted, O’Shea tried to run plays that were used in New England, which was predictable because O’Shea had spent the previous 10 seasons there as wide receivers coach. Additionally, a player reportedly said O’Shea made the situation worse by trying to install especially complicated elements of the Patriots offense used by Tom Brady and Patriots offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels. So, Chan is back with Fitz now in Miami. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Otreply Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 From what I have read on this forum, not very many coaches from the cheaters coaching tree seem to succeed after leaving the organization wide cheating regime. Always good to hear ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 Is O’Shea back with the Pats? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warcodered Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 A very complicated playbook could be very rough for them this year shortened offseason an all the new starters they've got. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Noggin Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 I wonder who else in the AFCE uses a similarly complex and difficult-to-learn offensive playbook from the NE/E-P tree? Sure do feel sorry for that team, I'll tell ya... 4 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackFergy Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 #wunderlicmatters 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 Doesn't Daboll have the same problem? I recall John Brown mentioning that this offense is the most complex he has been in. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Billieve Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 It's not a problem once you have a foundation. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 38 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said: I wonder who else in the AFCE uses a similarly complex and difficult-to-learn offensive playbook from the NE/E-P tree? Sure do feel sorry for that team, I'll tell ya... Daboll ? He is from that same tree too 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 1 hour ago, Nihilarian said: https://sports.yahoo.com/dolphins-chad-oshea-fired-patriots-offense-too-complex-young-players-nfl-024041937.html According to a report from the Miami Herald, O’Shea was let go by the Dolphins after friction with teaching the Dolphins’ young roster a playbook with the complexities typically seen in Foxborough. Multiple players reportedly supported the decision to swap out O’Shea for veteran coordinator Chan Gailey. From the Herald: One player described the situation on offense last season as a “[expletive] show,” noting O’Shea tried to teach an offense that was too complex for a young team and that teaching/instruction during film study was a “disaster.” As one player noted, O’Shea tried to run plays that were used in New England, which was predictable because O’Shea had spent the previous 10 seasons there as wide receivers coach. Additionally, a player reportedly said O’Shea made the situation worse by trying to install especially complicated elements of the Patriots offense used by Tom Brady and Patriots offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels. So, Chan is back with Fitz now in Miami. 43 minutes ago, Happy said: Doesn't Daboll have the same problem? I recall John Brown mentioning that this offense is the most complex he has been in. That was my thought - we suffer from the same problem here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rochesterfan Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 1 hour ago, YoloinOhio said: Is O’Shea back with the Pats? Nope - I believe he was hired in Cleveland. I think WR coach and passing game coordinator (for what it is worth). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgotBILLStopay Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 always good when an AFCE opponent’s coaching ranks are in disarray. that being said, these “issues” are less about the coaching tree and more about individual personalities. last couple of seasons, Bills fans have been a bit hard on Daboll and before that were harsh on Gailey as well. Ultimately winning cures everything and losing cannot cure anything. O’Shea situation appears to be a combination of losing and inability to connect with the younger crowd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frostbitmic Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 Many people get fired because they suck at their jobs ... This being the Dolphins, I figured that was the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgotBILLStopay Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, ScottLaw said: Truth is Daboll has sucked everywhere he’s gone in the NFL as an OC.... fans have a legitimate gripe to question the hire and the results to this point. but he has reallly connected well with Josh. That is really all that matters. edit: for josh - daboll relationship see https://www.syracuse.com/buffalo-bills/2020/01/what-buffalo-bills-qb-josh-allen-said-about-brian-daboll-potentially-getting-hc-job.html Quote “Listen, I love Daboll,” Allen said at the Bills’ locker room clean out. “He’s been one of my most favorite coaches that I’ve ever had in my entire football career. Whether he gets an opportunity to do that? Personally, I would hate to see it, but at the same time, you know, to get an opportunity like that for him it would be awesome. Not just for him, but for his family too. I understand that this is a business and I’d be the first one to tell him to do it if he had that opportunity. The relationship that we have is special. And I deeply care for him and his family and what he’s been able to do for me and how he has taken me under his wing. Time will tell in that aspect too, but again, a guy that I love and that will never change. Personally, I hope he’s back next year and we can keep things rolling.” Edited May 23, 2020 by IgotBILLStopay 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 Too complicated lol ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Doug Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 I would love to see Chan running our offense, but at this point, I’ll stick with the continuity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GimmeSomeProcess Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 The simple philosophy works much better on defense than offense. Complexity shouldn’t be a negative on offense. Your a step ahead of the defense so you have the luxury to be more complex Just now, Saint Doug said: I would love to see Chan running our offense, but at this point, I’ll stick with the continuity. Screen that, I don’t want dinosaurs in this league. I understand his offense is more modern but he’s still old school in coaching. Hence why his offenses have always flamed out 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 2 hours ago, BringBackFergy said: #wunderlicmatters #youfaileditcuzyoucantspellit 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Protocal69 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 4 hours ago, Warcodered said: A very complicated playbook could be very rough for them this year shortened offseason an all the new starters they've got. Yeah that teams QB is supposed to be dumb as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwistofFate Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 (edited) Erhardt-Perkins Offense The system is designed to simplify things for the quarterback by eliminating the lengthy play-calls used in West Coast and Air Coryell offenses, instead, using one-or-two word names for passing plays that are based on route combinations, or ‘concepts.’ These concepts typically feature two-or-three man route combinations on each side of the formation and these packaged concepts are each given names that are easy for the offense to digest. The lack of verbiage makes it easier for an offense to use tempo and go no-huddle, as the passer can simply call out the name of a given concept, rather than an entire play. This system also stresses defenses by running a small number of plays out of a variety of formations. Often run the same play from multiple different formations to emphasize mismatches. Im not sure why everyone thinks our offense is so complex, its really not. Its actually the opposite. Edited May 23, 2020 by TwistofFate 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihilarian Posted May 23, 2020 Author Share Posted May 23, 2020 4 hours ago, Happy said: Doesn't Daboll have the same problem? I recall John Brown mentioning that this offense is the most complex he has been in. "Obviously, there is a bit of a difference between a 20-season veteran like Brady and the younger players of a rebuilding team. The reported result: confusion among those players and complaints that O’Shea wasn’t doing a good job of teaching the playbook. One player told the Herald that veteran quarterback Ryan Fitzpatrick ended up taking more active role running the offense. The Harvard graduate reportedly had no major issues understanding the playbook." Fitz had no problem... the rest of the offensive players might have had difficulty adapting to that scheme though. Probably why O'Shea is gone. Look at what the Dolphins managed to do near the end of the 2019 season. They beat the Eagles in week 13, 37-31. A team that pounded Buffalo week 8, 31-13 and it wasn't even close. Buffalo was dominated by Philly on both sides of the ball. For the last game of the regular season, Miami also went up to New England and beat the Patriots 27-24 in one of my favorite games of the 2019 season. Along with the Titans beating the Patriots in New England in that WC playoff game 20-13. Anyway, when you consider that Josh Allen is a very, very bright young man. Daboll was coaching him very hard as he was yelling at him on the sidelines after some plays. Things changed for the better when Daboll went up into the booth to help Allen recognize what the opposing defense was doing before setting protections, calling the play. I also think this helped Daboll in seeing what the defense was about to do and call the appropriate play. Josh Allen has had very limited exposure to NFL offensive minds and Daboll is teaching him a very brilliant, complex offense. Now some might realize just how important it is to have a veteran QB in camp to help the younger QB's adjust to the NFL. My take is that Daboll is also setting up a very complex passing offense much like the Patriots run and he hasn't had an experienced veteran QB running those plays. Josh Allen for 2020 going into his third season. Brian Daboll 6 years exp as an NFL OC, his passing offenses in yards, 32nd, 29th, 23rd, 32nd, 31st, 26th. 2018 Wonderlic scores, Fitz had a 48 and is a 15 year veteran. Josh Allen (Wyoming): 37 Josh Rosen (UCLA): 29 Sam Darnold (USC): 28 Baker Mayfield (Oklahoma): 25 Lamar Jackson (Louisville): 13 https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2767339-report-josh-allen-josh-rosen-top-wonderlic-scores-for-2018-nfl-draft-qbs 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreggTX Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 Reason #2: Chan is a very good OC and play caller. Just don't let him pick your QB or DC. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincec Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 5 hours ago, GimmeSomeProcess said: The simple philosophy works much better on defense than offense. Complexity shouldn’t be a negative on offense. Your a step ahead of the defense so you have the luxury to be more complex Screen that, I don’t want dinosaurs in this league. I understand his offense is more modern but he’s still old school in coaching. Hence why his offenses have always flamed out That and he has always had Fitz at QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridgewaycynic2013 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 9 hours ago, YoloinOhio said: Is O’Shea back with the Pats? Even if he isn't, he is...? 8 hours ago, Happy said: Doesn't Daboll have the same problem? Possibly. However, when your other ten players are performing 'Swan Lake' on the field, and you still run Gore straight up the middle, the complexity is blunted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihilarian Posted May 23, 2020 Author Share Posted May 23, 2020 4 hours ago, TwistofFate said: Erhardt-Perkins Offense The system is designed to simplify things for the quarterback by eliminating the lengthy play-calls used in West Coast and Air Coryell offenses, instead, using one-or-two word names for passing plays that are based on route combinations, or ‘concepts.’ These concepts typically feature two-or-three man route combinations on each side of the formation and these packaged concepts are each given names that are easy for the offense to digest. The lack of verbiage makes it easier for an offense to use tempo and go no-huddle, as the passer can simply call out the name of a given concept, rather than an entire play. This system also stresses defenses by running a small number of plays out of a variety of formations. Often run the same play from multiple different formations to emphasize mismatches. Im not sure why everyone thinks our offense is so complex, its really not. Its actually the opposite. All that they simplified was the nomenclature, cadence. The scheme is very complex. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridgewaycynic2013 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 3 hours ago, Nihilarian said: One player told the Herald that veteran quarterback Ryan Fitzpatrick ended up taking more active role running the offense. The Harvard graduate reportedly had no major issues understanding the playbook." Maybe Billy Joe Hobert was onto something? "What I don't know can't hurt me". ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 8 hours ago, ScottLaw said: This might be us in a year... 8 hours ago, ScottLaw said: Yes.... I’m sure it’s played a part in why our offense has been average at best his first two years here... and every year for him as an OC. Never understood the complex offensive playbook strategy and never really trusted McDermott hiring an OC. Keep it simple stupid. 8 hours ago, ScottLaw said: Truth is Daboll has sucked everywhere he’s gone in the NFL as an OC.... fans have a legitimate gripe to question the hire and the results to this point. 8 hours ago, ScottLaw said: No it’s really not. Results matter, and to through 2 years the results haven’t really been there. 7 hours ago, Saint Doug said: I would love to see Chan running our offense, but at this point, I’ll stick with the continuity. Wow, SOMEBODY couldn’t wait to get in here and trash our OC! The mediocre offense couldn’t POSSIBLY be a by-product of developing a raw QB for two seasons, could it? Nah...Daboll sucks and McD doesn’t know offense! You’re consistent, I’ll give you that. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cage Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 9 hours ago, BringBackFergy said: #wunderlicmatters Fitzpatrick is Ivy League... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 Seems like this would be on Flores, not O’Shea. Flores knew what offense he was bringing to the table when he hired him. Anyway I’m surprised Brady didn’t find a way to grab him and bring him down to Tampa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoTier Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 9 hours ago, ScottLaw said: Truth is Daboll has sucked everywhere he’s gone in the NFL as an OC.... fans have a legitimate gripe to question the hire and the results to this point. I am unwilling to blame Daboll for the Bills poor offense in 2018 and 2019 because of the dearth of offensive talent that has been a problem all through McDermott's tenure. In 2018, the Bills simply didn't have NFL caliber offensive talent. The handling of Allen by the Bills n 2018 was reprehensible -- and it was decisions by McDermott, Beane, and probably others higher up the corporate food chain that resulted in the Bills starting the season with Nathan Peterman under center and with non-NFL caliber OL and receivers. When Allen got hurt, the Bills brass failed to bring in a competent veteran QB for a month! Moreover, the Bills supposed QB coach hadn't actually coached QBs in 30+ years. When Beane corrected all three of those serious deficits in 2019, including bringing in almost all new offensive assistants, the team improved significantly. They were still thin on talent but at least the starters were generally better than waiver wire refugees. With the continued development of current offensive players and the 2020 additions, the Bills finally have enough talent to enable Daboll to be judged fairly. I don't think that the Bills offense will ever resemble the Chiefs' offense but that's again on the FO and HC not the OC. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victory Formation Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 5 hours ago, Nihilarian said: "Obviously, there is a bit of a difference between a 20-season veteran like Brady and the younger players of a rebuilding team. The reported result: confusion among those players and complaints that O’Shea wasn’t doing a good job of teaching the playbook. One player told the Herald that veteran quarterback Ryan Fitzpatrick ended up taking more active role running the offense. The Harvard graduate reportedly had no major issues understanding the playbook." Fitz had no problem... the rest of the offensive players might have had difficulty adapting to that scheme though. Probably why O'Shea is gone. Look at what the Dolphins managed to do near the end of the 2019 season. They beat the Eagles in week 13, 37-31. A team that pounded Buffalo week 8, 31-13 and it wasn't even close. Buffalo was dominated by Philly on both sides of the ball. For the last game of the regular season, Miami also went up to New England and beat the Patriots 27-24 in one of my favorite games of the 2019 season. Along with the Titans beating the Patriots in New England in that WC playoff game 20-13. Anyway, when you consider that Josh Allen is a very, very bright young man. Daboll was coaching him very hard as he was yelling at him on the sidelines after some plays. Things changed for the better when Daboll went up into the booth to help Allen recognize what the opposing defense was doing before setting protections, calling the play. I also think this helped Daboll in seeing what the defense was about to do and call the appropriate play. Josh Allen has had very limited exposure to NFL offensive minds and Daboll is teaching him a very brilliant, complex offense. Now some might realize just how important it is to have a veteran QB in camp to help the younger QB's adjust to the NFL. My take is that Daboll is also setting up a very complex passing offense much like the Patriots run and he hasn't had an experienced veteran QB running those plays. Josh Allen for 2020 going into his third season. Brian Daboll 6 years exp as an NFL OC, his passing offenses in yards, 32nd, 29th, 23rd, 32nd, 31st, 26th. 2018 Wonderlic scores, Fitz had a 48 and is a 15 year veteran. Josh Allen (Wyoming): 37 Josh Rosen (UCLA): 29 Sam Darnold (USC): 28 Baker Mayfield (Oklahoma): 25 Lamar Jackson (Louisville): 13 https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2767339-report-josh-allen-josh-rosen-top-wonderlic-scores-for-2018-nfl-draft-qbs I wasn’t aware that Josh Allen scores a 37 on the Wonderlic, that’s incredible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridgewaycynic2013 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 5 minutes ago, Victory Formation said: I wasn’t aware that Josh Allen scores a 37 on the Wonderlic, that’s incredible. Yes, but 20 points of it is awarded for scrambling on busted plays. ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rochesterfan Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 28 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said: Seems like this would be on Flores, not O’Shea. Flores knew what offense he was bringing to the table when he hired him. Anyway I’m surprised Brady didn’t find a way to grab him and bring him down to Tampa. I think that is Bruce Arians team and offense. They do not want to have to teach the Bucs this type of system for the 2 years Brady will be there. As we have seen with the system in NE it took years to install and get guys up to speed, but patient was a virtue as once guys are fluent- there are so many things you can do. You just can’t expect 1st/2nd year guys in the system to be as nuanced as multi-year vets. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSE Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 Lets face it, The Dolphins are a train wreck, this guy should be happy to leave. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincec Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Limeaid said: The thing is he hasn't but some who do not like Fitz keep saying that. So, to be more precise: In 12 years as NFL OC or HC. His QBs have been: Fitz for 5 years, Tyler Thigpen for 1 year Jay Fielder for 2 years, Troy Aikman for 2 years (retired after following season) Mike Tomczak Kordell Stewart So it's not just Fitz. He has had mediocre to bad QBs his entire time. Some of that is his own doing so you can't absolve him of responsibility, but I am interested in seeing how he does with Tua. Edited May 23, 2020 by vincec 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoHuddleKelly12 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 12 hours ago, Richard Noggin said: I wonder who else in the AFCE uses a similarly complex and difficult-to-learn offensive playbook from the NE/E-P tree? Sure do feel sorry for that team, I'll tell ya... The thought crossed my mind lol, although maybe we have smarter players on par? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob in STL Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 10 hours ago, ScottLaw said: No it’s really not. Results matter, and to through 2 years the results haven’t really been there. The results have not been great but look at the talent on offense. Peterman at QB, Allen playing as a rookie. The 2018 OL was terrible. The WR corps was so lean that some people think Duke Williams is an NFL starter. Now in 2020 we finally have a stable and solid OL, quality WRs, good potential at TE, and a young and dynamic 1-2 punch at RB. Allen going into year 3 with the same system, same OC, is a good thing. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
machine gun kelly Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 Bailey will get a lot of Fitz, and he is good at knowing the aptitude’s of his players and catering the team to those strengths, aka. Spiller. They still have with all of their spending and draft picks holes on all three sides of the ball, so if Tua takes over in the second half of the year, they may be good, but not as good as us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 7 hours ago, Nihilarian said: Fitz had no problem... the rest of the offensive players might have had difficulty adapting to that scheme though. Probably why O'Shea is gone. Fitz, beside being a very intelligent guy, has been playing pro football for what....13 years? He can grasp these complex plays. Josh, not so much as this was really the first year the coaching staff committed to him as a starter. I think Josh was drinking from a firehose, either by design or not. 4 hours ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said: Possibly. However, when your other ten players are performing 'Swan Lake' on the field, and you still run Gore straight up the middle, the complexity is blunted. Playcalling was another problem... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xwnyer Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 13 hours ago, Warcodered said: A very complicated playbook could be very rough for them this year shortened offseason an all the new starters they've got. plus learning without someone whispering in the quarterbacks ear make it even more difficult ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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