Bottom line is the Defense has to prevent an 80 yard TD drive and we win

[TJC25]

1 minute ago, Mark Vader said:

You don't think he's played better at all?

He has cut down on picks. still very erratic and his deep ball has gotten extremely bad and his fumbling has gone up 

[BillsVet]

30 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

See, this is where I am, and maybe you can show me where I’m off track.

 

The way I see it, in the 4th Q, it really doesn’t matter what the absolute score is.  The absolute score could be 34-30 or 16-12.   It’s the difference that matters.

The point is: there is a lead, and with the game coming to an end, if we keep the lead, we win.  If we lose the lead, we lose, unless we score again.

 

Now, could the offense have put the issue beyond doubt by scoring more earlier?  Obviously if the score is 22-12 or 40-30 no single score matters.  So yes, the offense could and should score more.  But that ship has sailed.  It’s drawing to the end of the 4Q and it’s a 1 score game.

 

Elite D’s get the stop in those circs.

 

Non elite D’s, however tough they played earlier, do not.

 

Good O’s score more points, sure, no argument.  But if the D allows more scores, it’s still the same point difference in the end and the D didn’t get the stop.

 

I see the merits in these arguments.  In effect, get the stop on a crucial 4th quarter drive, as Minnesota did against Dallas, and the game is won.  

 

It's still a four quarter game and what you do before that final drive matters.  The Bills have such a small margin of error that it means one side of the ball needs to come up big late.  Against the Jets, and Titans it was the offense making plays to win.  Against the Bengals and perhaps Washington it was the defense.  This time, neither side made the big play to win the game.    

 

I'd say in the NFL of 2019 that limiting a talented offense to 19 points is good.  Not great, but good.  The same cannot be said about the offense.  Scoring 14 points is mediocre to poor.  McD himself has talked about needing to score 21 points per and I'm sure analytics combined with his defense first mentality means he's going to win those types of games.     

 

That said, I don't see there being elite defenses anymore.  Not ones that week in and week out are going to suffocate opponents like some in the past before the league opened up the passing game. 

 

[TJC25]

4 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

I see the merits in these arguments.  In effect, get the stop on a crucial 4th quarter drive, as Minnesota did against Dallas, and the game is won.  

 

It's still a four quarter game and what you do before that final drive matters.  The Bills have such a small margin of error that it means one side of the ball needs to come up big late.  Against the Jets, and Titans it was the offense making plays to win.  Against the Bengals and perhaps Washington it was the defense.  This time, neither side made the big play to win the game.    

 

I'd say in the NFL of 2019 that limiting a talented offense to 19 points is good.  Not great, but good.  The same cannot be said about the offense.  Scoring 14 points is mediocre to poor.  McD himself has talked about needing to score 21 points per and I'm sure analytics combined with his defense first mentality means he's going to win those types of games.     

 

That said, I don't see there being elite defenses anymore.  Not ones that week in and week out are going to suffocate opponents like some in the past before the league opened up the passing game. 

 

What was the score of the titans game btw refresh my memory and how many points did our d let the jets score?

Edited November 11, 2019 by TJC25

[Mark Vader]

5 minutes ago, TJC25 said:

He has cut down on picks. still very erratic and his deep ball has gotten extremely bad and his fumbling has gone up 

Yes, but his completion percentage is a lot better, he has several game winning touchdown drives, and he's been a big contributor to our red zone efficiency which is tops in the league.

 

Can he get better? Yes. We are just going to have to take what we can get now. I think he will get better.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, TJC25 said:

What was the score of the titans game btw refresh my memory 

 

https://lmgtfy.com/?q=bills+titans+score&s=g 

[TJC25]

3 minutes ago, Mark Vader said:

Yes, but his completion percentage is a lot better, he has several game winning touchdown drives, and he's been a big contributor to our red zone efficiency which is tops in the league.

 

Can he get better? Yes. We are just going to have to take what we can get now. I think he will get better.

But how many of these game winning drives were because josh was bad for 3 quarters 

[Mark Vader]

3 minutes ago, TJC25 said:

But how many of these game winning drives were because josh was bad for 3 quarters 

In all honesty and if I am being fully objective, that would be once, and that was against the Jets.

 

I think you have set yourself up for such lofty expectations and there is nothing that will satisfy you.

[Protocal69]

2 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

Except it wasn’t the final drive. The Bills got the ball back with about 1:40 on the clock and a timeout. You should win or tie that game 90% of the time. It’s a ton of time, and they couldn’t do it. Sometimes the team who has the ball last is going to win the game, and this should have been one of those times. NFL rules don’t favor the defense. 

That’s part of the advantage of deferring to receive the ball until the 2nd half

[TJC25]

1 minute ago, Mark Vader said:

In all honesty and if I am being fully objective, that would be once, and that was against the Jets.

 

I think you have set yourself up for such lofty expectations and there is nothing that will satisfy you.

Lofty expectations just decent qb is lofty a qb hitting wide open guys is lofty having a offense average 21 is lofty expectaions man we have fallen far as a fan base if these things are lofty expectations. So Josh played well in cinci and the titans 

[ganesh]

7 hours ago, BrycePaup4ever said:

Is this really the time to blame the defence. They have won a few games for us this year and despite that drive still played an alright game. They get a pass from me this time.

since they did cost the game as the OP wrote, I think it is right to call them out.  They gave up too many plays on that 80 yard drive.

[PaoloBillsFanFromItaly]

I don't blame the defense for the last drive, the most important play was a well defended pass but a better throw and a "fingertip" catch.

Run defense was awful for the entire first half.

[Troll Toll]

6 hours ago, Dopey said:

Invested so little in the offense?! They've invested a top 10 pick at qb, a whole new line, new wrs, new te's, new rbs. Are you joking?

 

16.66 points allowed per game

19.33 points scored per game

We've given up 20 or more points only twice this year. TWICE.

We've held 2 teams to single digits.

Yet our offense, in 9 games has had games of 10, 13, 14, 17 points scored this year. And only 16 today.

 Higher standard? Again, are you joking?

We had a better WR, TE, RB and OL situation the season before McDermott took over than what it is now. They rid themselves of Robert Woods, Sammy Watkins, Cordy Glenn, Richie Incognito, Charles Clay and Lesean McCoy (and Eric Wood retired). We didn’t have a great offense even with those guys and the talent level has dropped considerably since then. Signing mediocre guards and tackles, a bunch of slot receivers, an old RB, and spending late picks on TEs are a bunch of band-aid moves. The only big investments have been Allen, Morse, Cody Ford and Zay Jones. On defense they made big investments in Star Lotuleilei, Trent Murphy, Ed Oliver, Tremaine Edmunds, Tre’Davious White, and Micah Hyde. I can’t really see much of a difference between Year 1 and Year 3 on defense.

[Pbomb]

7 hours ago, TheJauronClap said:

No business why say that? 

Because when most teams no matter who the qb is drop back to pass the ball almost 50 times they seldom win, and like he said against a bad run defense in a one score game we ran 13 times 

[JoshAllin]

everytime they barely use singletary i already know the offense will do poorly, the call of a toss to gore in the rz for zero  yrds when they should of used singletary gets to me

Edited November 11, 2019 by motorj

[Nextmanup]

7 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Not sure where you got 25% of the time; I agree with the previous poster.  There was more than enough time and we should have been able to tie at a minimum, but couldn't.  The amount of time we wasted by sitting in the huddle was the epitome of incompetence.  Any offensively competent team would have won given what we had to work with.

McDermott was quite deliberately playing for a FG/TIE/OT on that final drive.

Look at how they used the clock!  They are scared to let Allen open it up and try to move down the field for a TD and win.

 

They have him extremely restrained b/c when he is not, he's a turnover machine.

 

That last drive was really interesting to me.  I am wondering, for the first time ever, if these guys are thinking Josh isn't the guy.

 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

I blame the defense for giving up the late TD but not necessarily the players on the field.  The Browns have a good set of skill players on offense and a QB that can be very effective and accurate when given adequate time to throw.  Their weakness on the offensive side of the ball is the offensive line and when Mayfield is pressured he can be erratic and make mistakes in judgment and throwing bad passes. 

But rather than bring pressure on the QB on the Browns scoring drive the Bills DC/HC ran a relatively vanilla bend but don't break and hope for the opponent to make a mistake strategy.  And it didn't work as Mayfield mostly worked the ball to Landry exploiting Wallace who was having a bad day at CB.  This to me screams of a lack of situational awareness.  Looking around the league at the top defensive squads I suspect most of them would rolled the dice and have brought the heat on Mayfield.  

Other than that the offense didn't run the ball enough and our PK missed two crucial kicks. In fact he's missed a FG to close the 1st half in each of the teams 3 losses.  

Edited November 11, 2019 by All_Pro_Bills

[Big Gun]

2 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

McDermott was quite deliberately playing for a FG/TIE/OT on that final drive.

Look at how they used the clock!  They are scared to let Allen open it up and try to move down the field for a TD and win.

 

They have him extremely restrained b/c when he is not, he's a turnover machine.

 

That last drive was really interesting to me.  I am wondering, for the first time ever, if these guys are thinking Josh isn't the guy.

 

 

IMO this is not true, 41 passes says as much.

 

Bad play calls and bad clock management are a huge issue. 

 

Daboll and McD ineptness is really hampering Allens developement.

[DuckyBoys]

3 minutes ago, pop gun said:

IMO this is not true, 41 passes says as much.

 

Bad play calls and bad clock management are a huge issue. 

 

Daboll and McD ineptness is really hampering Allens developement.

They really need to decide how they are going to handle Allen  Either open it up and live  with the good and bad or stick with a game plan that gives him support (run the football more created completion near the los)  They cant seem to make up their mind.  Browns are not good against the run why were we in shotgun with no rb on most downs?  Daboll sucks, Allen may be struggling but his OC is not doing him any favors.

 

[goldenboy81]

I'm trying to be positive but it sure looks like this team is really soft especially on defense

[Big Turk]

If you hold a team to 19 points you should win the game, period. This offense scoring under 20 points a game BS has to stop.

 

The offense driving into opponent territory and coming away with no points way too often( I'll bet they are top 5 in the league at percentage of drives that get into opponent territory but score no points)

 

The offense not being able to hit wide open deep balls to save their life.

 

A kicker who misses from 34 yards out and then is SHORT on a 53 yarder at the end of the game which obviously influenced McDermotts decision earlier to eschew a 53 yarder earlier and go for it on 4th and 4 since he realizes he can't reach from that distance now...effectively costing us 9 points

 

To blame it on the D is a little ridiculous. 

Edited November 11, 2019 by matter2003

[Alphadawg7]

10 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

True.  Can’t be too critical if the D after that goal line stand.  But they make the stop we win. 

yeah, great goal line stand...except it was the defense playing poorly that allowed them to get to the goal line in the first place...and multiple times during the game.  I don’t care about the goal line stand because Cle should have kicked a FG for points and then there is no “stand”.  
 

I was disappointed in how we let Cle drive so much and how easy the 80 yard game winning drive was.  
 

Goalline stand was cool when they did it, but y’all forgetting how bad the D was the drives that allowed Cle to get to goal line.  And you can’t hold them forever, so letting them keep getting there was inexcusable as it eventually lost us the game. 

[Stank_Nasty]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

yeah, great goal line stand...except it was the defense playing poorly that allowed them to get to the goal line in the first place...and multiple times during the game.  I don’t care about the goal line stand because Cle should have kicked a FG for points and then there is no “stand”.  
 

I was disappointed in how we let Cle drive so much and how easy the 80 yard game winning drive was.  
 

Goalline stand was cool when they did it, but y’all forgetting how bad the D was the drives that allowed Cle to get to goal line.  And you can’t hold them forever, so letting them keep getting there was inexcusable as it eventually lost us the game. 

if the defense is at the top of your list of things gone wrong yesterday then i'm at a loss man.... they were so far from the major problems. if you freaking hold a team to 19, a team that itself allows 26 a game, and you still lose there are serious issues elsewhere that majorly dwarf the defense.

[Billsatlastin2018]

I’m not blaming the D... not the entire year!

 

This inept Offence and its buffoon OC cannot score more than ONE TD per half! That’s woefully below NFL standards! 

[TJC25]

47 minutes ago, pop gun said:

IMO this is not true, 41 passes says as much.

 

Bad play calls and bad clock management are a huge issue. 

 

Daboll and McD ineptness is really hampering Allens developement.

So you let your QB drop back 48 times letting hit sling it make the decisions trusting in him to make plays is hampering no. What sean mcvay did to goff is hampering and its showing now we are letting a qb play his game and its not working 

[Alphadawg7]

22 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said:

if the defense is at the top of your list of things gone wrong yesterday then i'm at a loss man.... they were so far from the major problems. if you freaking hold a team to 19, a team that itself allows 26 a game, and you still lose there are serious issues elsewhere that majorly dwarf the defense.

Huh, where did I put it all on the defense?  I’m simply saying while the goal line stand was cool, it was also terrible defense that allowed those drives prior to getting to the goal line.  And they didn’t make a stand when it was needed most.  
 

There were a LOT of reasons we lost yesterday. 

[HeHateMe]

11 hours ago, DuckyBoys said:

Defense was not great today  Allowing the Browns to march 80 yards in the 4th quarter is not the hallmark of a veteran top 5 defense

 

They had 2 great goal line stands - one of which gave up 0 points.  They even put up 2 points on the score board on the safety. 

 

The offense simply has to score more than 14 points in today's NFL.. can't keep getting bailed out by the defense.

[CountDorkula]

Offense scores 16 points. 

 

Blame the defense for allowing 2 TDS all day  

 

sounds about right. 

[nucci]

Defense played well enough to win

[Stank_Nasty]

6 minutes ago, CountDorkula said:

Offense scores 16 points. 

 

Blame the defense for allowing 2 TDS all day  

 

sounds about right. 

not to mention scoring 2 points for us and earning the offense an extra possession.

[Billsatlastin2018]

7 minutes ago, CountDorkula said:

Offense scores 16 points. 

 

Blame the defense for allowing 2 TDS all day  

 

sounds about right. 

Of course !

 

This inept O is averaging less than 1 TD per half. 
 

BRUTAL! 

[Happy]

3 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

McDermott was quite deliberately playing for a FG/TIE/OT on that final drive.

Look at how they used the clock!  They are scared to let Allen open it up and try to move down the field for a TD and win.

 

They have him extremely restrained b/c when he is not, he's a turnover machine.

 

That last drive was really interesting to me.  I am wondering, for the first time ever, if these guys are thinking Josh isn't the guy.

 

 

 

I'm not sure they're thinking Josh isn't the guy, but they are definitely restraining him.  It did look like he was playing for the FG/OT, and he didn't do that particularly well.  McD tried to run all the clock off he could so he could send out Huaschoke with only a couple of seconds left.  Where we saw them burn time in the huddle, that may very well have been intentional.

[Mark Vader]

9 hours ago, TJC25 said:

Lofty expectations just decent qb is lofty a qb hitting wide open guys is lofty having a offense average 21 is lofty expectaions man we have fallen far as a fan base if these things are lofty expectations. So Josh played well in cinci and the titans 

He hasn't been playing decent?

 

He hasn't hit wide open guys?

 

So he has not gotten any better this year from last year? Is that what you are saying?

[Boatdrinks]

10 hours ago, Protocal69 said:

That’s part of the advantage of deferring to receive the ball until the 2nd half

Deferring gives you the potential for back to back possessions before and after halftime . Not sure if it has an impact at the end of the game; too many things can happen in quarters 3 and 4. 

[billsfan714]

How many stops did the D have in the red zone?   Answer a ton.

[Boatdrinks]

11 hours ago, BillsFan2313 said:

 

The kicker missed two FGs. Is that something you forgot, or what?

Obviously kicks were missed. The Bills should have had a couple of shots at a game winning TD and a more manageable FG attempt if they had managed the end of the game efficiently. It was sloppy and they wasted a lot of time off the clock. Plays were curious as well. 

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

6 minutes ago, billsfan714 said:

How many stops did the D have in the red zone?   Answer a ton.

 

But not when the game was on the line, did they?

[Billever76]

12 hours ago, Bob in STL said:

 

He called 20 runs and 41 passes on the road, with the lead for part of the game.   With a QB that struggles that is bad.

 

Loved that bomb on 3rd and 3. 

 

Allen at least has youth as an excuse.  Daboll has never once had a productive offense on any NFL team, ever.  

At least you get it...daboll is essentially making our team a one dimensional,pass happy team with a qb whom was raw coming out of a low tier college program....simply unacceptable to set the game up as if allen is brees or mahommes

Frazier is not good either..he is average at best and his career as a dc backs my claims of that..he is way to conservative and his bend but dont break isnt to be counted on to seal games..he has a tendency to shy away from aggressive play calling and puts his team into an almsot prevent like cover two or quarters as soon as the offense has even the slightest lead..he plays not to lose and never plats to dominate and bring the heat...highly overrated in Bills land imo

[Spiderweb]

14 hours ago, BillsVet said:

How many people on this board do not know how to spell the OC's name correctly?

 

D-A-B-O-L-L 

 

 

The defense was good enough to win today.  When you hold your opponent to 19 points and the offense can't score more, it's not a defensive issue.  

 

NFL defenses are not going to be the '85 Bears, '00 Ravens, or '02 Buccaneers and consistently hold teams to 10 points per.  Not happening. 

Thanks, I was beginning to spell his name as "Crapoll"... Where was the running game?

 

[blacklabel]

Defense bails this team out time and again. Would've been nice if they had closed it out but there are gonna be games where the offense is gonna need to step up and get it done, and they didn't.  

 

Daboll's gotta find ways to be more consistent. They seem to get rolling when the pressure is on but when they have a lead they don't seem to be able to keep their foot on the gas and put teams away. 

[Luka]

To a certain extent, I agree with this. If you are going to build your team around defense and your offense gives you the lead with under 4 minutes remaining, that's when your defense needs to come up big. And they didn't.

 

Then you look at that last drive, Josh was driving again, then they huddle? Not sure what that was about.

 

Then you have Hauschka leaving 6 points on the field...

 

Failure at all three phases of the game is a hard pill to swallow, plenty of blame to go around.