Jump to content

What are we missing offensively?


Ramza86

Recommended Posts

On 10/7/2019 at 10:51 AM, Mr. WEO said:

 

It's hard to get an answer when you don't ask the man a question.  Give him the ball.  Posters putting a lot on Singletary who is out 3 games in his first season after only 10 carries. 

 

Yeldon is not the answer.   He is a proven fumbler which is why I believe he isn't getting more action.   He was a fumbler before he came here and he fumbled at a crucial moment in the Patriots game costing the Bills dearly.

 

I believe that is why he isn't getting more time.    I expected them to cut him immediately after the Patriots game as he is a huge liability when he touches the ball.    He has talent to make plays, but he is too unreliable with ball control.     Once Singletary is healthy, Yeldon will rarely touch the ball again - if he even touches it again - JMHO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/7/2019 at 8:26 AM, Ramza86 said:

We can get drives going...but it just looks like we cant get enough big plays down the field. Im not talking about just a streak down the field for 60 yards.

Is it lack of separation? Is it lack of play design?

I dont think we can use the excuse of there are 2 deep safeties so we can only take what they give. 

Every other NFL team doesnt seem to have that issue. And no team plays two deep the entire game. 

What is it and it this fixable?

If the offense doesnt shape up those tight ones will not always be winnable.

 

First of all, your title is "what are we missing offensively", but you seem very focused on big plays down the field as the problem for sustaining drives.

 

I don't agree.  I think the biggest problem we're facing on offense is sustaining drives.  Between INTs, fumbles, turnovers on downs where we fail to get 1-2 yds, drops, and penalties, we're shooting ourselves in the foot. 

 

You're right that teams don't play 2 deep the entire game, but if they can shut down the deep stuff for a couple plays and wait for us to miscue, they don't have to, right?  Their safeties can sip Gatoraid on the sideline while our D works up a sweat.

 

So that's the big issue IMHO - cleaning up our game, get out of our own way and quit stopping ourselves.  If we can reliably and consistently sustain the short stuff, then D's have to adjust and open up the deeper passes.

 

Then frankly, we need another WR who can go deep.  Zay Jones was not that guy.  Foster has been injured (injuries impacting speed) and still out.  Roberts has been injured and they're working him back in slowly.  So with only Brown to cover, they can cover him like a blanket.

 

Third, there have been times when we just need a little more from our OL.  Part of that is Josh.  If the D pawing at the ground and teeing off, they're daring him to check down and risk that breaking for good yards.  If he shows he can make them pay consistently, they'll back off a bit.  Then our OL can give a little more, and Josh has a little more time in the pocket for the play to develop and to set his feet for a nice on-target throw.

 

I said in the other thread I think people under-estimate the impact on a QB of having an extra fraction of a second or an extra fraction of a yard to follow through. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, billsbackto81 said:

Honestly the only thing I think is missing is time to develop. Josh is not Mahomes and Dabolls not Reid. He played his 16th game Sunday. What are people expecting? Outside of Jackson perhaps he's played better than the others in his class. We all knew he was a ball of clay. Unfortunately the Defense appears to be 2 seasons ahead of the offense. They're ready to contend now. 

 

Agreed.

 

This offense should improve over the course of the season assuming players don't get injured.   You can see Allen hitting guys over the middle with timing and consistency.   It is a very, very good sign.

 

I think Daboll is doing a good job based on the amount of open receivers I have seen.    Josh will get better at finding them as he gains confidence and becomes more comfortable in this offense.    The arrow is pointed in the right direction.

 

I think the offensive line still is still a long way from being where it needs to be for this team to be dominant.   The line is not opening holes in the run game as consistently as it needs to be.   If this line was dominant, the Bills would be a true contender right now - even with just average play from Allen.

 

It is an exciting time to be a Bills fan.   There is reason for optimism.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, PolishDave said:

 

Yeldon is not the answer.   He is a proven fumbler which is why I believe he isn't getting more action.   He was a fumbler before he came here and he fumbled at a crucial moment in the Patriots game costing the Bills dearly.

 

I believe that is why he isn't getting more time.    I expected them to cut him immediately after the Patriots game as he is a huge liability when he touches the ball.    He has talent to make plays, but he is too unreliable with ball control.     Once Singletary is healthy, Yeldon will rarely touch the ball again - if he even touches it again - JMHO.

 

 Huge liability?  He had a single fumble last year.  Gore averages over 3 fumbles a season--over 15 seasons.  Yeldon"s fumble rate is lower than Gore's.

 

No, Yeldon isn't "the answer", but he is capable until and whenever Singletary can answer the bell in the first half of his first season.

 

Calling him "a fumbler" and a "huge liability" with the ball isn't a fact based claim though---it's a fabrication.  Therefore completely unconvincing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Allen needs to cut down on negative plays whether they be a turnover, a bad sack, or a poor throw. He does a lot of good things, but in order to keep drives alive, you've got to take advantage of what the defense is providing. 3rd and 3 is a whole lot better than 3rd and 12. We've created negative down and distance situations too often this season to go along with the turnovers. 

 

It would be great if Duke becomes the guy some envision and Allen takes some chances (in rhythm and in the pocket as opposed to darting right or left and throwing across his body.) 

 

As has been mentioned, the chunk plays are lacking bigtime. They've got to start hitting on some of those. It will be cool to get Singletary back because he seems to have the capability of breaking a dumpoff for 40. We really have no electric YAC guys and that's an issue. Chunk plays seldom come via a fly route. It's nice when it connects, but you want to see the 25-40 yard gains any way you can get em. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 Huge liability?  He had a single fumble last year.  Gore averages over 3 fumbles a season--over 15 seasons.  Yeldon"s fumble rate is lower than Gore's.

 

No, Yeldon isn't "the answer", but he is capable until and whenever Singletary can answer the bell in the first half of his first season.

 

Calling him "a fumbler" and a "huge liability" with the ball isn't a fact based claim though---it's a fabrication.  Therefore completely unconvincing.

 

Yeldon was a fumbler in college too if I recall correctly - especially in key situations where it was more costly.

 

I'm guessing he would have had more carries in his NFL career if he didn't.

 

Since Yeldon has been in the NFL, he has fumbled 6 times on 475 carries.

In the same time Gore has fumbled 10 times on 1,015 carries.

 

So yes, Gore has had more fumbles, but it is because he has had a lot more carries over the same time.    And using Gore as a measuring stick is not a great idea.

 

My understanding (maybe I am wrong) is that a running back with good ball security is supposed to fumble less than once out of every 100-125 rushes.   Gore has been around average at best.  Yeldon is below average in ball security.  

 

So maybe saying Yeldon is a "huge liability" is the wrong wording.   But he is a liability and proved it with his costly fumble in the biggest game the Bills played yet this season.

 

In my opinion, he is not good enough and should not even be on this team.   He is more risk than reward.   just my opinion.

 

Edited by PolishDave
grammar
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lack of seam plays. 

 

Singletary opens up our wide runs and breaks some of those Gore runs where we get 10 yards instead of 30 yards. 

 

Screens. Every one seems to get read and blown up. Why are they that easy to read. Fix it!

 

Lack of deep potential since everyone rolls their safety to Brown. If Foster isn't that guy, they need to get someone who can be that guy...NOW

 

2nd TE who has an impact. They need Kroft. Sweeney will be on the practice squad when he gets back because he has more drops than catches and hasn't shown much. 

 

Lack of Trap Plays. When we run them, they work. Run More.

 

QB Sneaks on 4th and 2.. Bleck!

 

 

 

 

Edited by Locomark
  • Awesome! (+1) 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Defenses have tape on Allen and are handling him accordingly. He is improving but he could use another big reciever ala AJ Green to help him. I am so glad AB rejected us since I think he would not have synced with Allen. once Josh shows he can do the short stuff well his deep stuff will open up well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, RocCityRoller said:

This offense will look different when Foster and Singletary return.

 

Until then feed McKenzie and Knox.

 

Ugly for now, down a few OL. Get the beasts healthy on OL.

 

Get McKenzie involved until then.

 

Hopefully they are ALL back in a couple weeks for Miami, and we start firing on all cylinders! 

  • Like (+1) 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/7/2019 at 6:43 AM, PromoTheRobot said:

>An answer at right tackle.

>Singletary.

>One more WR threat.

 

 

This.

 

Allen has been getting too much pressure off the edge on the right and there are games where that has had him spooked and he bails on the pocket early.

 

We need Singletary so we can have a more consistent rushing attack that allows Gore to stay fresh and slow opposing defenses that pin their ears back on the pass rush. Singletary is also a RB we can use to get around the edge on stretch plays and toss sweeps if defenses are too focused on rushing/containing Allen

 

A receiver that can make contested catches; someone Allen will not be afraid to throw to when covered. Hopefully Duke fills the bill.

 

I would add Allen continuing to learn to read defenses and getting the ball out quicker.

 

 

  • Like (+1) 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Consistency of execution. And we have just played 3 teams with decent corner combinations - even Cincy whose two starting corners are 1st round picks. 

 

I think teams are very wary of Brown over the top and are bracketing him and willing to let him have some underneath stuff as a price for that. I also think philosophically Daboll does not want to run an offense that lives and dies by the deep ball. At times last year they had to because it was all they had. But not sure that is the offense he wants to run. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Play designs are poor.  Play calling of the poorly designed plays is not good either.  There is a lot to coaching beyond game day coaching.  The Bills coaching staff seems to be good at the non-game day coaching.  But average Bills fans have a dozen plays a game where they are all scratching their heads asking what were the Bills thinking. (recent obvious example, QB sneak on a fourth and 2).    Sports have a variety of success measures. In baseball at the major league level if you put the ball safely in play 30% of the time you are a star. If you are a goaltender and save 93% of the shots in the NHL, you are a star.  If you save 90% of the shots, you are just OK, if you save 85% of the shots, you are out of the league.   NFL play calling is closer to NHL goal tending than it is to MLB hitting.  Bills are missing too often during games. 
 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Locomark said:

Lack of seam plays. 

 

Singletary opens up our wide runs and breaks some of those Gore runs where we get 10 yards instead of 30 yards. 

 

Screens. Every one seems to get read and blown up. Why are they that easy to read. Fix it!

 

Lack of deep potential since everyone rolls their safety to Brown. If Foster isn't that guy, they need to get someone who can be that guy...NOW

 

2nd TE who has an impact. They need Kroft. Sweeney will be on the practice squad when he gets back because he has more drops than catches and hasn't shown much. 

 

Lack of Trap Plays. When we run them, they work. Run More.

 

QB Sneaks on 4th and 2.. Bleck!

 

 

 

 

 

 

...for YEARS we've been smoked by TE plays in the seam........opposition looked at "third and long" as "third and nothin' " against us.....1st down(s)........Sweeney and Knox have to potential to be akin to "Pete and Keith"....so why not the seam?.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We score more when the defense creates turnovers. 

 

This is is purely observational, it seems like we are constantly on the wrong side of the turnover/field position battle(s). 

 

I will add that when we get on the edge of field goal range we tend to go backwards via sack/penalties 

Edited by Shortchaz
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

Play designs are poor.  Play calling of the poorly designed plays is not good either.  There is a lot to coaching beyond game day coaching.  The Bills coaching staff seems to be good at the non-game day coaching.  But average Bills fans have a dozen plays a game where they are all scratching their heads asking what were the Bills thinking. (recent obvious example, QB sneak on a fourth and 2).    Sports have a variety of success measures. In baseball at the major league level if you put the ball safely in play 30% of the time you are a star. If you are a goaltender and save 93% of the shots in the NHL, you are a star.  If you save 90% of the shots, you are just OK, if you save 85% of the shots, you are out of the league.   NFL play calling is closer to NHL goal tending than it is to MLB hitting.  Bills are missing too often during games. 
 

 

 

The 4th and 2 was a poor call. But beyond that Daboll had a very good game Sunday. 

  • Like (+1) 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, PolishDave said:

 

Yeldon was a fumbler in college too if I recall correctly - especially in key situations where it was more costly.

 

I'm guessing he would have had more carries in his NFL career if he didn't.

 

Since Yeldon has been in the NFL, he has fumbled 6 times on 475 carries.

In the same time Gore has fumbled 10 times on 1,015 carries.

 

So yes, Gore has had more fumbles, but it is because he has had a lot more carries over the same time.    And using Gore as a measuring stick is not a great idea.

 

My understanding (maybe I am wrong) is that a running back with good ball security is supposed to fumble less than once out of every 100-125 rushes.   Gore has been around average at best.  Yeldon is below average in ball security.  

 

So maybe saying Yeldon is a "huge liability" is the wrong wording.   But he is a liability and proved it with his costly fumble in the biggest game the Bills played yet this season.

 

In my opinion, he is not good enough and should not even be on this team.   He is more risk than reward.   just my opinion.

 

 

 

 

Gore has fumbled 46 times over 3547 carries.  That's 1.33% or once every 77 carries---poor call security by your own measure.  Yeldon is 1.26%, essentially the same.  You can't conclude one is "average" and the other is "below average".  And you can't pick a portion of Gore's career to make your point--that makes no sense.

 

If you really want to talk about ball security, the second leading rusher on the team has 5 fumbles on 41 carries this season and last season had 8 fumbles on 89 rushes.  That guy fumbles the ball on 10% of his runs!  More risk than reward?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is AJ Green not playing because he's being shopped? I read that he might have been able to play last week

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

 

Gore has fumbled 46 times over 3547 carries.  That's 1.33% or once every 77 carries---poor call security by your own measure.  Yeldon is 1.26%, essentially the same.  You can't conclude one is "average" and the other is "below average".  And you can't pick a portion of Gore's career to make your point--that makes no sense.

 

If you really want to talk about ball security, the second leading rusher on the team has 5 fumbles on 41 carries this season and last season had 8 fumbles on 89 rushes.  That guy fumbles the ball on 10% of his runs!  More risk than reward?

 

 

Weo, the Bills should hire you for your analytics!!?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, the skycap said:

Is AJ Green not playing because he's being shopped? I read that he might have been able to play last week

Weo, the Bills should hire you for your analytics!!?

 

Don't they have like some video guy doing analytics?  lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

 

Gore has fumbled 46 times over 3547 carries.  That's 1.33% or once every 77 carries---poor call security by your own measure.  Yeldon is 1.26%, essentially the same.  You can't conclude one is "average" and the other is "below average".  And you can't pick a portion of Gore's career to make your point--that makes no sense.

 

If you really want to talk about ball security, the second leading rusher on the team has 5 fumbles on 41 carries this season and last season had 8 fumbles on 89 rushes.  That guy fumbles the ball on 10% of his runs!  More risk than reward?

 

 

 

lol.   You chose to use Gore as a measuring stick.   Not me.   

 

During the time they have been in the league together - Gore has been better at ball security than Yeldon.    If you think that doesn't matter then okay it doesn't matter to you.   I think it matters to the coaches who want the best player now or at least a player then are confident will execute better.   If they didn't pay more attention to recent production then Kelvin Benjamin would still be in a Bills uniform.

 

But pointing out that ball security was an issue for both of them at some point in their career does not bolster whatever point you thought you were making about Yeldon being some great trustworthy ball carrier.   

 

Yeldon's career has shown that he historically fumbles too much and when he does (because of bad luck or whatever reason) it is often times at a costly point in the game.   He is the type of player that costs you more in mistakes than he makes up for in production.   And it appears the NFL has already seen his ceiling.

 

It is okay that you think he is a great player who needs more playing time.   For whatever reason you are enamored with the guy.   I just disagree.   I don't trust him with the ball.   I don't think the coaches should trust him with it either.   I wish the Bills had a better backup.  

 

I'll leave it at that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, PolishDave said:

 

Yeldon was a fumbler in college too if I recall correctly - especially in key situations where it was more costly.

 

I'm guessing he would have had more carries in his NFL career if he didn't.

 

Since Yeldon has been in the NFL, he has fumbled 6 times on 475 carries.

In the same time Gore has fumbled 10 times on 1,015 carries.

 

So yes, Gore has had more fumbles, but it is because he has had a lot more carries over the same time.    And using Gore as a measuring stick is not a great idea.

 

My understanding (maybe I am wrong) is that a running back with good ball security is supposed to fumble less than once out of every 100-125 rushes.   Gore has been around average at best.  Yeldon is below average in ball security.  

 

So maybe saying Yeldon is a "huge liability" is the wrong wording.   But he is a liability and proved it with his costly fumble in the biggest game the Bills played yet this season.

 

In my opinion, he is not good enough and should not even be on this team.   He is more risk than reward.   just my opinion.

 

No, he has fumbled 6 times on 656 touches. He has 181 receptions too. That can't be left out.

  • Like (+1) 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, PolishDave said:

 

lol.   You chose to use Gore as a measuring stick.   Not me.   

 

During the time they have been in the league together - Gore has been better at ball security than Yeldon.    If you think that doesn't matter then okay it doesn't matter to you.   I think it matters to the coaches who want the best player now or at least a player then are confident will execute better.   If they didn't pay more attention to recent production then Kelvin Benjamin would still be in a Bills uniform.

 

But pointing out that ball security was an issue for both of them at some point in their career does not bolster whatever point you thought you were making about Yeldon being some great trustworthy ball carrier.   

 

Yeldon's career has shown that he historically fumbles too much and when he does (because of bad luck or whatever reason) it is often times at a costly point in the game.   He is the type of player that costs you more in mistakes than he makes up for in production.   And it appears the NFL has already seen his ceiling.

 

It is okay that you think he is a great player who needs more playing time.   For whatever reason you are enamored with the guy.   I just disagree.   I don't trust him with the ball.   I don't think the coaches should trust him with it either.   I wish the Bills had a better backup.  

 

I'll leave it at that.

 

In crunch time I would prefer Gore to Yeldon in regards to ball security.

 

Analytics be damned?

 

For me it has more to do with how each carries the ball. One carries it like a purse, and the other carries it like he's protecting a baby while falling down a flight of steps.

 

Those last runs by Gore he was so wrapped around the ball you could not even see any of the ball peeking out.

 

He just has more of my confidence in situations where I know teams are desparately trying to punch it out.

 

 

  • Thank you (+1) 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

48 minutes ago, PolishDave said:

 

lol.   You chose to use Gore as a measuring stick.   Not me.   

 

During the time they have been in the league together - Gore has been better at ball security than Yeldon.    If you think that doesn't matter then okay it doesn't matter to you.   I think it matters to the coaches who want the best player now or at least a player then are confident will execute better.   If they didn't pay more attention to recent production then Kelvin Benjamin would still be in a Bills uniform.

 

But pointing out that ball security was an issue for both of them at some point in their career does not bolster whatever point you thought you were making about Yeldon being some great trustworthy ball carrier.   

 

Yeldon's career has shown that he historically fumbles too much and when he does (because of bad luck or whatever reason) it is often times at a costly point in the game.   He is the type of player that costs you more in mistakes than he makes up for in production.   And it appears the NFL has already seen his ceiling.

 

It is okay that you think he is a great player who needs more playing time.   For whatever reason you are enamored with the guy.   I just disagree.   I don't trust him with the ball.   I don't think the coaches should trust him with it either.   I wish the Bills had a better backup.  

 

I'll leave it at that.

 

 

You can repeat this all you want, it doesn't become less wrong and more true.

 

I compared him to Gore obviously because that's who he is competing for touches with. 

 

I haven't even hinted that he is a "great player" nor that he is "some great trustworthy ball carrier"---- you made that up as well, straw man killer. 

 

Good idea...

 

 

 

 

39 minutes ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

If these were the ‘old days’, the analytics guy would be figuring out if hot dogs or hamburgers sold better at NEF.

 

Ralph would have demanded to know...

25 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

No, he has fumbled 6 times on 656 touches. He has 181 receptions too. That can't be left out.

 

Don't confuse Polish Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd say the realistically fixable thing is pre-snap penalties. Fix those and you sustain more drive. Bills score more points. Teams start to change the way they defend the Bills and longer passes open  up more. 

 

The second thing is to keep Allen focusing on not making mistakes. Defenses are ok with him beating them on shorter routes because they assume he'll make a mistake eventually. When they have the penalties come down and Allen doesn't make mistakes, they have to start stopping the shorter game and that opens up the longer game. 

 

They also need to figure out the run game. They've been able to move the ball, but the run game is either in-frequent, ineffective or both. The last drive Tenn knew the Bills were going to run and couldn't stop it. Where was that earlier in the game?

Edited by jeremy2020
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

Play designs are poor.  Play calling of the poorly designed plays is not good either.  There is a lot to coaching beyond game day coaching.  The Bills coaching staff seems to be good at the non-game day coaching.  But average Bills fans have a dozen plays a game where they are all scratching their heads asking what were the Bills thinking. (recent obvious example, QB sneak on a fourth and 2).    Sports have a variety of success measures. In baseball at the major league level if you put the ball safely in play 30% of the time you are a star. If you are a goaltender and save 93% of the shots in the NHL, you are a star.  If you save 90% of the shots, you are just OK, if you save 85% of the shots, you are out of the league.   NFL play calling is closer to NHL goal tending than it is to MLB hitting.  Bills are missing too often during games. 
 

 

 

I don't think that is true at all. There may be a head scratcher here or there; however, for the most part, the play calling has been good. The problem has been consistency (Beginning with their 3rd quarter after lunch siesta they've taken in 4 of 5 games) and critical (meaning ending drives and scoring opportunities) drops, penalties, and turnovers. Cleaning that up alone will make this offense much better and lead to more points.

 

Even with all that, and new players at a lot of positions, they are moving the ball to the tune of almost 375 YPG (12th in the NFL), and they have been almost money in the red zone. I am looking forward to the offense continuing to improve over the remainder of the season.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Besides John Brown, this is a slow offense.  

 

McKenzie can burn, Foster is fast (but hurt), Beasley is quick....I wouldnt say we have a slow offense. And many many many successful offenses dont have a ton of speed, we have more than enough to be successful 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...