Mayfield is << Allen

[Don Otreply]

8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Yes, it is really.

We truly don't need to rehash the whole Whaley was the worst GM ever/Whaley brought in talent/but was it a team?/Rex was the problem/Rex ruined Whaley's talent/Rex was treated unfairly    blahblah, 3 years after Whaley hit the road, *during a thread that is about 2 QB who weren't in the league nor even drafted the last time Whaley was*

 

Horse.  Dead.  Whacking.  Let it go.

You’re over blowing it, it’s merely a reference of doing team building the wrong way. No one was rehashing his entire tenure with the Bills. Just sayin...

[Jumpsuit Jim]

10 minutes ago, Chuck Wagon said:

I believed prior to the draft and still believe to this day that if Allen were at Oklahoma with Lincoln Riley and that talent he would have been the #1 pick by a country mile and Baker at Wyoming is likely mid 1st territory. 

 

 

Baker at Wyoming? If that had been the case, he would have been drafted after Mason Rudolph. 

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

23 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

Absolutely spot on. Wilson has grown into an upper echelon QB; however, he was a QB averaging 195 - 220 YPG during their SB years. Interestingly enough, so many fans want to equate an elite QB with 300 YD passing games, yet in his 8 full seasons, Wilson averaged more than 250 YPG once, and averaged about one 300 YD game per season. Also, as his average per game has gone up, his playoff appearances have gone down. 

 

Wilson did not start out as an elite QB, yet, he was given that reputation, IMO, before he earned it.

Simply put, fantasy football, we  now have a crowd that roots for numbers and as you say equates it with being elite. The problem of course being context or lack of attention to the context by many.

Edited October 8, 2019 by D. L. Hot-Flamethrower

[BananaB]

1 hour ago, Chuck Wagon said:

I enjoy how the Baker apologists say it's not his fault he threw a ball in the dirt from 8 yards away that Callaway popped up, but if it were Allen they would be saying that lack of accuracy is why he'll never make it.

Allens pass to Beasley against the Jets was better then that and he got ridiculed for it. 

[vorpma]

On 9/17/2019 at 7:42 AM, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...yup...just my personal preference, but I like Allen's humility, respect for the game, diligent work ethic and "WE" versus "ME" attitude......quote was, "OUR team and OUR family"....kid is never seeking the ME spotlight..........

We are building a class, character, and winning organization built on a team, not divas! It's a sign of the times that many on TBD want selfish superstars that provide a couple minutes of excitement rather than the boring climb to the top and longevity!

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

2 minutes ago, vorpma said:

We are building a class, character, and winning organization built on a team, not divas! It's a sign of the times that many on TBD want selfish superstars that provide a couple minutes of excitement rather than the boring climb to the top and longevity!

 

...GREAT assessment......it has been a long, LONG time coming................

[BananaB]

55 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I really do believe in their talent.  But I don’t get why they couldn’t have just like FK be the OC. Was he that in demand? Also going into the season with Greg Robinson as your LT should get someone fired.  That’s a team that should be all over Trent Williams.  

 

Good news is if they keep losing, Bills fans will take over their field when we play them.

Freddie got the job because Baker loved him and John Dorsey was scared he’d leave if he gave the job to Greg Williams... I told my buddies last year it would come back to haunt them. 

[thebandit27]

37 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

To be fair to Baker, when a QB knows well that his pocket could collapse like a Mumbai construction project at any time, it's hard to trust it and stay home.

 

One of my only concerns about Baker coming out of OU is that he routinely had 4+ seconds to throw the ball, and I had no clue how he'd respond to having less than 3 in the NFL.

 

That could end up being a problem for him in the short-term. 

[Royale with Cheese]

8 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

One of my only concerns about Baker coming out of OU is that he routinely had 4+ seconds to throw the ball, and I had no clue how he'd respond to having less than 3 in the NFL.

 

That could end up being a problem for him in the short-term. 

 

This made me laugh....

 

 

[Mojo44]

 Mayfield’s college numbers are the result of him being a “system“ quarterback. Specifically, he was in a one read system. He completed a zillion short passes skewing his statistics. His temperament is a potential negative issue. As the number one pick overall I predicted he had high bust potential.Admittedly, it’s early, but right now he looks like a decent back up to me. His skill set does not transfer well to the NFL

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, Mojo44 said:

 Mayfield’s college numbers are the result of him being a “system“ quarterback. Specifically, he was in a one read system. He completed a zillion short passes skewing his statistics. His temperament is a potential negative issue. As the number one pick overall I predicted he had high bust potential.Admittedly, it’s early, but right now he looks like a decent back up to me. His skill set does not transfer well to the NFL

He did set a rookie td record and they added a top 5 receiver.   I think most people are pretty shocked how bad he looks.  

[NoSaint]

1 hour ago, Joe in Winslow said:

Talent doesn't matter if the team is dysfunctional. Any bills fan should understand that after Doug Whaley's tenure.

 

 

 dysfunction gets ignored when you win too. Plenty of dysfunctional winners out there 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

3 hours ago, matter2003 said:

You sure about that?  Wilson is the NFL MVP right now. Dude is playing out of his mind...12 TDs 0 INT's completing over 73% of his passes for a ridiculous QB rating of 126.3

 

I can't fathom how this guy is always overlooked as one of the best in the league.  It's hard to put people in any specific order but it almost has to be mahomes rodgers and wilson right?  Brady and Brees are right there but when it comes down to it they are both in their 40s.  Still amazing QBs, still 2 guys you would never want to face - but they were better in years past.  

 

The seahawks defense was like dismantled last year had everyone predicting them going 4-12 and they won 10 games.  Wilson has never missed a game.  Has great numbers.. plays his best football in the 4th quarter.. Has almost 4000 yards rushing and another 20 TDs on the ground.  Guy's a baller.

15 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

He did set a rookie td record and they added a top 5 receiver.   I think most people are pretty shocked how bad he looks.  

 

Yep - offensive line is killing him, and he has no trust in them.  So he's bailing out a lot and second guessing himself.

[KD in CA]

On 9/23/2019 at 8:56 AM, fan_in_tx said:

The #1 we should really be questioning is Kyler Murray ..  If you watched his career through HS and College he was flat out great.  He looks lost in Pro offense. 

 

I'm always suspicious of these guys that played one year in college for these big time programs.  At least half those games are blowouts against vastly overrated opponents (probably 75% if you're Haskins at OSU) so these guys just haven't played enough real, competitive football.  It doesn't mean they won't develop, but seems pretty high risk compared to a guy like Daniel Jones who was a 3 year starter on a team that played mostly solid competition and wasn't steamrolling anyone.

[Chicken Boo]

"Baker is just a sober Johnny Manziel."

 

Ah, where to begin?  He started off by criticizing his former coach, then injected himself into a teammate's contract/trade demands and currently has a tiff going on with Rex Ryan. 

 

Baker doesn't have the mental makeup of a successful QB.  To top it off, he struggles to make reads fron the pocket. 

 

Steve Young is 100% right when he speaks about Mayfield.  Less bravado and focus on your craft.  The QB position is hard enough by itself, why add more stress to the position?  Idiot.

 

 

On 9/23/2019 at 11:56 AM, fan_in_tx said:

The #1 we should really be questioning is Kyler Murray ..  If you watched his career through HS and College he was flat out great.  He looks lost in Pro offense. 

 

Kyler is adjusting fine, from what I can tell.

 

His play has been solid for a first year guy.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Just now, KD in CA said:

 

I'm always suspicious of these guys that played one year in college for these big time programs.  At least half those games are blowouts against vastly overrated opponents (probably 75% if you're Haskins at OSU) so these guys just haven't played enough real, competitive football.  It doesn't mean they won't develop, but seems pretty high risk compared to a guy like Daniel Jones who was a 3 year starter on a team that played mostly solid competition and wasn't steamrolling anyone.

 

I mean - it comes down to the player and development.  I think a stronger o-line and run game is beneficial to a young QB and you're seeing that with someone like Prescott.  Houston's trade to help watson also comes to mind.  Wentz and Goff improved with improved line play.  

[BillsFanSD]

1 hour ago, BananaB said:

Allens pass to Beasley against the Jets was better then that and he got ridiculed for it. 

People still bring up "he turned the ball over four times in one half" when literally none of those turnovers were the result of bad decision-making, sloppiness, carelessness with the football, etc.  Not that Allen isn't occasionally reckless of course, but the amount of grief this guy gets over plays that come up in practically every game played in the NFL is amazing.

[KD in CA]

13 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

"Baker is just a sober Johnny Manziel."

 

That's priceless.  

[Royale with Cheese]

27 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

I can't fathom how this guy is always overlooked as one of the best in the league.  It's hard to put people in any specific order but it almost has to be mahomes rodgers and wilson right?  Brady and Brees are right there but when it comes down to it they are both in their 40s.  Still amazing QBs, still 2 guys you would never want to face - but they were better in years past.  

 

The seahawks defense was like dismantled last year had everyone predicting them going 4-12 and they won 10 games.  Wilson has never missed a game.  Has great numbers.. plays his best football in the 4th quarter.. Has almost 4000 yards rushing and another 20 TDs on the ground.  Guy's a baller.

 

Yep - offensive line is killing him, and he has no trust in them.  So he's bailing out a lot and second guessing himself.

 

He definitely looks rattled.

[Warcodered]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

But his Heart is built on bluster and bravado and that's a fragile thing.  If you use negativity to motivate yourself, you walk a thin line between motivation and carrying the weight of it.  I think Mayfield is starting to feel the weight.

There was something either said by or about Allen last year when talking about dealing with all the criticism he gets. Basically it was that it wasn't about prooving people wrong but prooving himself right.

[KD in CA]

9 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

I mean - it comes down to the player and development.  I think a stronger o-line and run game is beneficial to a young QB and you're seeing that with someone like Prescott.  Houston's trade to help watson also comes to mind.  Wentz and Goff improved with improved line play.  

 

Yes, absolutely.  Which is why the Bills offseason plan to get Josh some competent players around him was so important.

 

But the risk of a bust with a guy like Haskins is so high because you've seen him play what, 3 real games of football in his whole college career?  People get blinded by six TD games against Indiana or whoever, but those are the games that should be thrown out the window entirely.   See also:  Cardale Jones, Aaron Maybin and Da'Rick Rogers;  other one year wonders who had most of their stats against vastly overmatched opponents.

35 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

I can't fathom how this guy is always overlooked as one of the best in the league.  It's hard to put people in any specific order but it almost has to be mahomes rodgers and wilson right?  Brady and Brees are right there but when it comes down to it they are both in their 40s.  Still amazing QBs, still 2 guys you would never want to face - but they were better in years past.  

 

The seahawks defense was like dismantled last year had everyone predicting them going 4-12 and they won 10 games.  Wilson has never missed a game.  Has great numbers.. plays his best football in the 4th quarter.. Has almost 4000 yards rushing and another 20 TDs on the ground.  Guy's a baller.

 

And he's really fun to watch.  Wilson is absolutely one of the best players in football.

[YoloinOhio]

1 hour ago, KD in CA said:

 

I'm always suspicious of these guys that played one year in college for these big time programs.  At least half those games are blowouts against vastly overrated opponents (probably 75% if you're Haskins at OSU) so these guys just haven't played enough real, competitive football.  It doesn't mean they won't develop, but seems pretty high risk compared to a guy like Daniel Jones who was a 3 year starter on a team that played mostly solid competition and wasn't steamrolling anyone.

Haskins had a horrible defense and poor running game so he actually was in mostly close games last year, even though they should have been blowouts comparing the teams on paper. They ended up 13-1 but were probably a 8-9 win team at best without Haskins 

Edited October 8, 2019 by YoloinOhio

[YoloinOhio]

 

1 hour ago, Chicken Boo said:

"Baker is just a sober Johnny Manziel."

 

Ah, where to begin?  He started off by criticizing his former coach, then injected himself into a teammate's contract/trade demands and currently has a tiff going on with Rex Ryan. 

 

Baker doesn't have the mental makeup of a successful QB.  To top it off, he struggles to make reads fron the pocket. 

 

Steve Young is 100% right when he speaks about Mayfield.  Less bravado and focus on your craft.  The QB position is hard enough by itself, why add more stress to the position?  Idiot.

 

 

 

Kyler is adjusting fine, from what I can tell.

 

His play has been solid for a first year guy.

Kyler is a different player than Baker. Same college scheme but Kyler is much more athletic and that allows him to adjust in ways that Baker cannot. I always thought Baker was a more accurate passer than Kyler but Baker is so inaccurate now. Worst completion % in the league which i know doesn’t tell the whole story but he also leads in INTs

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 minute ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

Kyler is a different player than Baker. Same college scheme but Kyler is much more athletic and that allows him to adjust in ways that Baker cannot. I always thought Baker was a more accurate passer than Kyler but Baker is so inaccurate now. Worst completion % in the league which i know doesn’t tell the whole story but he also leads in INTs

And yet, doesn't take a quarter of the roasting that Allen does.

Wonder why?

 

[EasternOHBillsFan]

9 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

Haskins had a horrible defense and poor running game so he actually was in mostly close games last year, even though they should have been blowouts comparing the teams on paper. They ended up 13-1 but were probably a 8-9 win team at best without Haskins 

 

Haskins doesn't have the support system that other rookie QBs have had... the coaching staff clearly was in turmoil and it showed. Haskins cannot help he got placed into an undesirable situation, much like Darnold and Rosen.

[YoloinOhio]

2 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

And yet, doesn't take a quarter of the roasting that Allen does.

Wonder why?

 

He’s starting to 

1 minute ago, EasternOHBillsFan said:

 

Haskins doesn't have the support system that other rookie QBs have had... the coaching staff clearly was in turmoil and it showed. Haskins cannot help he got placed into an undesirable situation, much like Darnold and Rosen.

I’m not surprised Haskins needs more time given his limited experience in college. But it is literally their job to get him ready. And they are trying to blame it on him with this leaked BS about him not understanding things. Anyone who followed Haskins at all knows he’s intelligent and was running an offense at Ohio state designed by a former nfl QB coach. Everything coming out of Redskins park makes them look incompetent and foolish.

[Mrbojanglezs]

5 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

And yet, doesn't take a quarter of the roasting that Allen does.

Wonder why?

 

 

 because it doesn't support the analytics community's biases. they use college production to predict NFL production. Mayfield was productive in college in a big-time program and Allen was a nobody, nobody school with no record of production. So Mayfield gets more benefit of the doubt 

[Ta111]

5 minutes ago, Mrbojanglezs said:

 

 because it doesn't support the analytics community's biases. they use college production to predict NFL production. Mayfield was productive in college in a big-time program and Allen was a nobody, nobody school with no record of production. So Mayfield gets more benefit of the doubt 

Which now shows you how silly their biases are.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

....not surprising..........

 

Richard Sherman annoyed at Baker Mayfield’s handshake snub

Posted by Darin Gantt on October 8, 2019, 6:12 AM EDT

 

Richard Sherman was annoyed with Baker Mayfield before the game even started.

 

In fact, it was the Browns quarterback’s refusal to shake hands during the pregame coin toss that had the 49ers corner on edge.

 

“What’s amazing, and annoying, was him not shaking hands at the beginning,” Sherman told Mike Silver of NFL.com. “That’s some college s—. It’s ridiculous. We’re all trying to get psyched up, but shaking hands with your opponent — that’s NFL etiquette. And when you pull bush league stuff, that’s disrespectful to the game. And believe me, that’s gonna get us fired up.”

 

Apparently it did, as Sherman picked off Mayfield two minutes into the game. Sherman wasn’t the only one to take a shot at Mayfield on a miserable night, as Nick Bosa clowned his college-era flag-waving celebration.

 

Sherman said it was particularly offensive for a young player to not participate in the perfunctory ritual.

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/10/08/richard-sherman-annoyed-at-baker-mayfields-handshake-snub/

 

[Mat68]

Imo,  Allen is completely under rated.  I know PFF wants to make Bill's fans seem delusional for saying this.  Allen is being taught the position.  They are giving him field reads, I dont see alot of scripted 1 read throws this year.  Through 15 games hes got more wins then losses.  4 comeback wins, 5 game winning drives.  

[Rochesterfan]

Look - I am not going to try and equate anything we currently see with long term success.  You saw some of the traits last year that you are seeing this year from Mayfield, but it was all done under a cover of anonymity.  

 

The Browns were coming off a winless season and although very talented they showed very little cohesion.  Baker became a de facto on field leader and Greg Williams (uggh) got the team prepared and they won games.  The hiring of Kitchens to placate Baker and then the bringing in of offensive and defensive talent ramped up the pressure, but ultimately has lead to the team being a train wreck from a coaching and leadership standpoint.

 

Baker has taken a major step back, but by the end of the season - his numbers will end up fine - they may even win the division and make the playoffs, but right now I doubt it.  The issue I would have is the lack of progress shown.  He looks less prepared and less able to handle the pressure than he did as a rookie.  Allen on the other hand has shown progression and growth and has come a long way to show true leadership under high pressure situations.

 

Baker was significantly better than Allen last year, but has regressed and is now behind Allen.  Allen had a long way to go, but has passed Baker at this point and time, but the important question is future development.  Can Allen continue to grow and does Baker return to his 2018 form.  The future for both players is yet to be written and I am not willing to say one is going to be better based on small snippets of the season.  

 

 

[YoloinOhio]

Just now, Rochesterfan said:

Look - I am not going to try and equate anything we currently see with long term success.  You saw some of the traits last year that you are seeing this year from Mayfield, but it was all done under a cover of anonymity.  

 

The Browns were coming off a winless season and although very talented they showed very little cohesion.  Baker became a de facto on field leader and Greg Williams (uggh) got the team prepared and they won games.  The hiring of Kitchens to placate Baker and then the bringing in of offensive and defensive talent ramped up the pressure, but ultimately has lead to the team being a train wreck from a coaching and leadership standpoint.

 

Baker has taken a major step back, but by the end of the season - his numbers will end up fine - they may even win the division and make the playoffs, but right now I doubt it.  The issue I would have is the lack of progress shown.  He looks less prepared and less able to handle the pressure than he did as a rookie.  Allen on the other hand has shown progression and growth and has come a long way to show true leadership under high pressure situations.

 

Baker was significantly better than Allen last year, but has regressed and is now behind Allen.  Allen had a long way to go, but has passed Baker at this point and time, but the important question is future development.  Can Allen continue to grow and does Baker return to his 2018 form.  The future for both players is yet to be written and I am not willing to say one is going to be better based on small snippets of the season.  

 

 

Mayfield had good numbers last year overall but performed poorly against good defenses. It wasn’t all great but that got overlooked among all the offseason hype. 

[Buffalo716]

5 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I thought a guy here who knew a guy said this year in Cle Baker has not been putting in the time

Maybe he let the shirtless car ads with the Tiger and "At Home with Baker Mayfield" go to his head

Possible but it's still asinine to question bakers work ethic in the past

 

He walked on at Oklahoma and Tech, you need to be a hard ass worker to walk on at a D1 school

 

Everybody loves Levi cus he walked on at bama and thinks he has to have a amazing work ethic . Baker did that playing QB and won the Heisman

 

Edited October 8, 2019 by Buffalo716

[DrDawkinstein]

Im dying

 

[Gugny]

6 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

Im dying

 

 

Could easily put Flutie's face there, too.  And after last night ... Peterman's.

[NickelCity]

4 hours ago, dneveu said:

 

I can't fathom how this guy is always overlooked as one of the best in the league.  It's hard to put people in any specific order but it almost has to be mahomes rodgers and wilson right?  Brady and Brees are right there but when it comes down to it they are both in their 40s.  Still amazing QBs, still 2 guys you would never want to face - but they were better in years past.  

 

The seahawks defense was like dismantled last year had everyone predicting them going 4-12 and they won 10 games.  Wilson has never missed a game.  Has great numbers.. plays his best football in the 4th quarter.. Has almost 4000 yards rushing and another 20 TDs on the ground.  Guy's a baller.

 

Wilson is unreal. Phenomenal quarterback.

[Freddie's Dead]

2 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

....not surprising..........

 

Richard Sherman annoyed at Baker Mayfield’s handshake snub

Posted by Darin Gantt on October 8, 2019, 6:12 AM EDT

 

Richard Sherman was annoyed with Baker Mayfield before the game even started.

 

In fact, it was the Browns quarterback’s refusal to shake hands during the pregame coin toss that had the 49ers corner on edge.

 

“What’s amazing, and annoying, was him not shaking hands at the beginning,” Sherman told Mike Silver of NFL.com. “That’s some college s—. It’s ridiculous. We’re all trying to get psyched up, but shaking hands with your opponent — that’s NFL etiquette. And when you pull bush league stuff, that’s disrespectful to the game. And believe me, that’s gonna get us fired up.”

 

Apparently it did, as Sherman picked off Mayfield two minutes into the game. Sherman wasn’t the only one to take a shot at Mayfield on a miserable night, as Nick Bosa clowned his college-era flag-waving celebration.

 

Sherman said it was particularly offensive for a young player to not participate in the perfunctory ritual.

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/10/08/richard-sherman-annoyed-at-baker-mayfields-handshake-snub/

 

 

Sherman arguing about bush league is priceless!

[YoloinOhio]

Richard Smollett??

 

 

[Warcodered]

 

 

 

[PolishDave]

2 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

Look - I am not going to try and equate anything we currently see with long term success.  You saw some of the traits last year that you are seeing this year from Mayfield, but it was all done under a cover of anonymity.  

 

The Browns were coming off a winless season and although very talented they showed very little cohesion.  Baker became a de facto on field leader and Greg Williams (uggh) got the team prepared and they won games.  The hiring of Kitchens to placate Baker and then the bringing in of offensive and defensive talent ramped up the pressure, but ultimately has lead to the team being a train wreck from a coaching and leadership standpoint.

 

Baker has taken a major step back, but by the end of the season - his numbers will end up fine - they may even win the division and make the playoffs, but right now I doubt it.  The issue I would have is the lack of progress shown.  He looks less prepared and less able to handle the pressure than he did as a rookie.  Allen on the other hand has shown progression and growth and has come a long way to show true leadership under high pressure situations.

 

Baker was significantly better than Allen last year, but has regressed and is now behind Allen.  Allen had a long way to go, but has passed Baker at this point and time, but the important question is future development.  Can Allen continue to grow and does Baker return to his 2018 form.  The future for both players is yet to be written and I am not willing to say one is going to be better based on small snippets of the season.  

 

 

 

Good take.

 

Mayfield does not look good under pressure - at least not the games I have watched him in - including last night.     Most quarterbacks aren't great under pressure.

 

Allen spent a lot of his time in college under pressure and has a lot more experience in those situations.   I think that experience helps him in the pros.

 

Both guys have the potential to be outstanding quarterbacks if given enough time to develop behind good offensive lines.     If either one is stuck behind a rotten offensive line or stuck with an offensive coordinator who sucks, then I think either has the potential to end up as a backup.

 

Fortunately for us, it appears the Bills have found a decent up and coming offensive coordinator and also upgraded player talent on the offensive line.   If they upgrade the talent on the offensive line by the same amount next year without regressing elsewhere, this team could finally become dominant.