Why I’m changing my mind on some things

[mabden]

37 minutes ago, BillsPride12 said:

Regarding Point #2)  I commented on the same thing today watching with my buddies.  I mentioned how I think Josh is far more athletically talented than Kelly ever was but you would never see Kelly sitting there, moping on the bench with a deer in the headlights look that is starting to become all too common with Allen lately.  I don't get it, I'm not sure where the fire has gone

 

Unless you're at the game to watch the sidelines,  consider,  that the camera crews and TV booth personnel/producers are giving you those looks to sell a narrative. 

[oldmanfan]

8 minutes ago, EasternOHBillsFan said:

 

Your words are so important because you've endured this for the most amount of time here at TBD and your opinion to me is elevated over everyone elses except for Shaw66 of course. 

 

Let me pick your brain here for a minute... I don't think the Bills have had talent on the offensive side of the ball like Allen and Diggs before, and I don't think there is any historical Bills precedent for what is going on, even for the Bickering Bills year. So I'm going to go back to the Ground Chuck Bills with Chuck Knox. I was a little kid during those years, and from what I gather we were very successful then and suddenly everything fell apart and Knox left.

 

Do you think that we're in danger of falling apart like what happened at that time? Like I said, I can't think of any other historical time to compare it to.

Knox leaving was avoidable.  As much as we all love Ralph for making Buffalo a major league team he did not spend on coaches and that but him in the ass with Knox.  It led to hiring a string of horrible guys that ended when appliances took over.

 

I don’t think we’ll fall apart like the early-mid 80’s because Josh, even though I worry about him, is simply too good for that to happen.

[Einstein]

5 minutes ago, mrags said:

The time frame is 5 years. Head coaches with young QBs make it within the first 5 years. After that it’s almost never done. I provided a link with statistical proof at one point in the off-season and was blasted for it by most. I don’t have the link anymore. And I’m not going to bother looking for it. Just know that it’s almost never happened if ever. 

 

Yep. I did an entire analysis on the topic. Here it is:

 

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/248039-how-long-does-it-take-an-nfl-head-coach-to-reach-his-1st-super-bowl/

 

[RyanC883]

24 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

So I'm going to make this point again about the offense, it wasn't nearly as terrible today as everyone seems to be making it out to be. Just straight up 1 INT 1 Punt 1 Turnover on downs, also a fumble, but that was the stupid ass 5 second try and do something ridiculous, which apparently we have no actual game plan for. Hell you lop off our first play of the game and we only got stopped twice.

 

Trouble was the Patriots kept us out of the endzone in the first half and we missed a pretty standard FG, weird miss too. Could and should the offense be better, yes, but it wasn't that bad today.

 

Game wise, the Patriots just played a good game, I mean it sucks but our defense, wheeling out in full body cast though so are they, didn't get it done and they took advantage of the moments they needed to. Sure we kept them to a FG at the start, but they get 7 after that INT to jump to a 10pt lead in a very slow moving game.

 

I get your points, but disagree re.  the offense.  The Pats missing two top DL kept pressure on Josh all day.  Another week with no first half TD’s.  The offense is a huge issue.  

[billybob71]

45 minutes ago, BillsPride12 said:

Regarding Point #2)  I commented on the same thing today watching with my buddies.  I mentioned how I think Josh is far more athletically talented than Kelly ever was but you would never see Kelly sitting there, moping on the bench with a deer in the headlights look that is starting to become all too common with Allen lately.  I don't get it, I'm not sure where the fire has gone

I think we are seeing the start of him not wanting to be in Buffalo and I wouldn't blame him really

[EasternOHBillsFan]

2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Knox leaving was avoidable.  As much as we all love Ralph for making Buffalo a major league team he did not spend on coaches and that but him in the ass with Knox.  It led to hiring a string of horrible guys that ended when appliances took over.

 

I don’t think we’ll fall apart like the early-mid 80’s because Josh, even though I worry about him, is simply too good for that to happen.

 

From what I saw today, I'm not so sure that he is consistently great enough to do this forever... he's losing focus more often and honestly looks lost as is mentally out of it. It's very concerning and makes me question whether or not it is because he's getting tired of having so much of the game on his shoulders or because the coaching staff lacks the ability to help him.

[zow2]

12 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Can you imagine being Allen? You played the game of your life two years ago against the best team in the NFL and never saw the ball again in a loss. Now you're playing with an injury to your throwing shoulder and it's deja vu, putting on your Superman cape to pull out a win and once again your defense fails you.

 

This regime is wasting an elite QB in his prime. Something needs to change, and while Allen has had his issues this year, he is not replaceable. Everyone in the front office and coaching staff is.

 

Like Domenic Hasek did when he left the Sabres (with no Cup)… i will root for Josh to win a Super Bowl late in his career when he goes home and leads the 49ers to a SB win.

[Chaos]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

But today was sad to me because the team just seemed lifeless, clueless, and without any passion.

Good summary of the game and season thus far. 

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

In general I am more the optimistic type and don’t buy into the weekly nonsense doom and gloom that permeates the board.  But after today I am starting to change my mind on a few things:

 

1.  Dorsey isn’t effective in his role.  I thought he was after the Fish game, but it is clear opposing defenses have figured some things out and he does not have answers.  My daughter knows more about football than most, and she said after the game that the league is dominated by innovation on offense, and we’re not getting that.  We have him, Shula, Brady all available and we can’t get anything going?

 

2.  Josh is loved by all, but something is going on with him.  And it is not just him not running as much.  Whether it is football or non-football related I don’t know.  But I said to my wife today that he almost seemed disinterested during the game.  And I was shocked to think that.  The QB is a de facto team leader, and especially when a captain.  I pooh poohed  those the last few weeks saying he should not just sit by himself on the bench, but today I was struck by his attitude.   Wasn’t doing anything to get the team going.  Sadly, if I was asked right now whether Josh reminds me more of Kelly or Fergy, personality wise it would be Fergy.  And I’m not sure that personality in a QB can win a championship regardless if physical talent.  He needs to look inside himself and figure out his issues.

 

3.  I have said many times that McD will not get fired.  But after today I have to begin wondering if he has taken this team as far as he can take them.  It is utterly inexcusable for a defense to give up a TD that last series against Mac Jones.  Even a FG would have been inexcusable.  When you absolutely have to get a stop to win, and the first play in the drive you give up 30+ yards is absurd, even given the personnel losses.  As HC and DC, you have to have ways to stop them, and you have to be able to motivate the team to step up.  Neither happened.  Larry Bird used to say you need to change coaches every 5 years because players have heard everything you can say by then.  Is McD at that point?  I’m not sure.

 

i sat at the Rockpile as a 4 year old at opening day 1960.  God knows I’ve seen a lot of bad days in 63 years.  But today was sad to me because the team just seemed lifeless, clueless, and without any passion.  Again, I  am a glass half-full type but today’s game was just sad.  Sad, sad, sad.    I think it is the harbinger of a missed playoff year this year.  This kind of loss can either gut a team or spur a team to wake up.  I don’t see any evidence they want to wake up.  Sometimes you have to take a step back to take two steps forward.  This season seems like it will be the step back.

Well, I’m 63 and was born in ‘60, so I have no clue how you were sitting at the Rockpile as a 4 year old in 1960, but otherwise you make some valid points. 

[oldmanfan]

Just now, AlCowlingsTaxiService said:

Well, I’m 63 and was born in ‘60, so I have no clue how you were sitting at the Rockpile as a 4 year old in 1960, but otherwise you make some valid points. 

Because I was born in 1955. 

[Low Positive]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

I don’t think Allen is disinterested, I think he’s lost confidence.  We saw him jittery in preseason.

He keeps throwing what he thinks are sure completions only for the route to get jumped and the pass to get picked. That will cause a drop in confidence.

[Warcodered]

9 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

 

I get your points, but disagree re.  the offense.  The Pats missing two top DL kept pressure on Josh all day.  Another week with no first half TD’s.  The offense is a huge issue.  

There's a world of difference between saying they were great and saying they weren't as bad as people are saying they were. I said they should be better, you need to score TDs in the redzone, though the immediate 10pt deficit definitely made that look worse, even if redzone defense is one of the only things the Patriots are still able to do.

 

We made the Patriots punt 2 times today and the fumble, that's what the defense did today.

[CincyBillsFan]

54 minutes ago, zow2 said:

For the record i think when they made it 22-17 or maybe it was 25-22 Josh came to the bench walking up and down was screaming hyping everyone up.  So to say he was sitting like a deer in headlights is true for part of the game but not when the game was on the line. He was up and doing his part.

Allen played great in the 2nd half.  They scored 3 TD's and a 2 pt conversion on four possessions and only a Knox 4th down drop kept if from being 4 TD's on 4 possessions.  That's two straight games where the offense and Allen were excellent in the 2nd half.  This indicates to me a structural problem not some type of issue with Allen.

 

If I had to guess the recent deterioration of this season's O line has gotten into Allen's head.  For something like the 5th straight season the Bills are fielding a below average O line.  This season is shaping up to be back to back years with a much below average O line. Allen always has to worry about his right side and now were seeing the almost immediate pressure up the middle that many of us thought was gone with the signing of McGovern and drafting of Torrence.

 

It's inexcusable that Bean/McD have not been able to fix the O line.  And frankly the draft capital & free agent signings for this unit have not indicated that this is a high priority by management.  And that is the crux of the problem and emblematic of how defensive oriented coaches & GM's think.

 

 

 

 

[RyanC883]

1 minute ago, Warcodered said:

There's a world of difference between saying they were great and saying they weren't as bad as people are saying they were. I said they should be better, you need to score TDs in the redzone, though the immediate 10pt deficit definitely made that look worse, even if redzone defense is one of the only things the Patriots are still able to do.

 

We made the Patriots punt 2 times today and the fumble, that's what the defense did today.

 

I still think the offense was awful.  Too much talent not to get a TD in the first half against a bad D.  Speaking of bad D, I agree: ours was awful today.  We made Jones look like an all pro. 

[bobobonators]

 

 

Our Super Bowl was the dolphins game 3 weeks ago. We have been lifeless since. It’s a fact. 
 

Players and coaches on this team need to dig deep. Hopefully this was the wake up call they needed. We’ll see. 

[CincyBillsFan]

20 minutes ago, EasternOHBillsFan said:

 

From what I saw today, I'm not so sure that he is consistently great enough to do this forever... he's losing focus more often and honestly looks lost as is mentally out of it. It's very concerning and makes me question whether or not it is because he's getting tired of having so much of the game on his shoulders or because the coaching staff lacks the ability to help him.

I doubt he minds having the game on his shoulder I think he welcomes it.  But the Bills have not structured an offense to take advantage of what Allen does best.  Frankly they have been criminally negligent in this regard.  Look at that O line and the skill players not named Diggs.  Now check out the Eagles, 49's, Dolphins, Bengals & Chiefs.

 

 

 

 

 

[dma0034]

Since we are all taking guesses on the Offense:

 

1. What is going on with the O-Line? It's a miracle Allen wasn't sacked 7/8 times. Allen had no time a lot

 

2. Gabe Davis? Dude is a complete waste. Bills need to make WR and O-Line their priorities. 

 

3. Knox. He isn't worth what he is getting paid. I would like the Bills to trade him but I doubt any team takes him

 

4. The Bills should be practicing screen passes all week. It is the best way to freeze defenders if the running game isn't working

 

5. Can the Bills send Kincaid on a seam route a few times a game?

 

6. Allen needs to start having runs again. Teams have been sitting back more because he hasn't been rushing as much

Edited October 23, 2023 by dma0034

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

10 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Because I was born in 1955. 

Ok … 63 years since your first game experience.  Thought you meant 63 years on earth 😂

[Norcalbillsfan]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

I don’t think Allen is disinterested, I think he’s lost confidence.  We saw him jittery in preseason.

After the go ahead td he was on the sidelines hyping up the D. I don't think he was as quiet and disinterested as everyone thinks. But you can tell he's visually not happy with their performance the past few weeks

[PatsFanNH]

9 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

 

I still think the offense was awful.  Too much talent not to get a TD in the first half against a bad D.  Speaking of bad D, I agree: ours was awful today.  We made Jones look like an all pro. 

The Pats D right now is average.. if they ever get healthy they are top 5.. but the Bills are IMO to Diggs reliant now. Pats shut him down in the first half and for whatever reason the Bills didn’t just keep feeding the TE who were constantly open. 

[mrags]

38 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Yep. I did an entire analysis on the topic. Here it is:

 

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/248039-how-long-does-it-take-an-nfl-head-coach-to-reach-his-1st-super-bowl/

 

Only 5 coaches in 40 years. Ugh. 
 

the link I was referring to was something about coaches and QBs. Something like if it’s not done within the first 5 years of being together has never Happened. I don’t remember the facts of it. So in that case someone’s gonna have to go. I’m sticking with Allen. McClappy can go. Unfortunately, I’m not sure it happens that way. I think McD is going to suck all the life out of Allen and he’s going to leave buffalo. Once he gets another year or maybe 2, he’ll be looking for a trade to a REAL Competitor. 

[transplantbillsfan]

Josh actually said something in the last week or 2 about the need for him to stop showing his emotions so much. He said that was something he was really working on. Matt Parrino and Ryan Talbot on their Shout podcast said they've noticed a difference in the last few weeks. That could explain the stoicism. Maybe he took it too far.

[mrags]

1 minute ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Josh actually said something in the last week or 2 about the need for him to stop showing his emotions so much. He said that was something he was really working on. Matt Parrino and Ryan Talbot on their Shout podcast said they've noticed a difference in the last few weeks. That could explain the stoicism. Maybe he took it too far.

So I’d imagine that McD sucked that part of life from him and Josh thinks he’s doing it the right way because his lame coach guided him that way. 
 

we need a QB that basically defies the coaches at this point. Just go rogue and do whatever he wants. 

[BillsPride12]

58 minutes ago, billybob71 said:

I think we are seeing the start of him not wanting to be in Buffalo and I wouldn't blame him really

That I disagree with 

1 hour ago, mrags said:

In Kelly’s defense he was fueled by mounds and mounds of cocaine 

He was just trying to maintain a level playing field when playing against LT 

[Buffalo Super Fan]

35 minutes ago, zow2 said:

 

Like Domenic Hasek did when he left the Sabres (with no Cup)… i will root for Josh to win a Super Bowl late in his career when he goes home and leads the 49ers to a SB win.

I get it but after while you want Buffalo to actually win one for us Buffalo fans. I am tired of rooting for Bob McAdoo to get a ring with the Los Angeles Lakers. Dominik Hasek getting a ring with the Detroit Red Wings. Jack Eichel with the Vegas Golden Knights after a while it gets old and you ask yourself what the heck are our Buffalo sports organizations that we put trust and faith in are doing? I am at 99.9% blame ownership today weather it is there fault or not. And it is because of the just ridiculousness of the past 5 decades of missed field goals, no goals and bad officials calls for Buffalo sports teams. That is how you become like Buffalo Super Fan all the just stuff it builds up over time and you stuff it deep down inside and try to forget about it but it is always there how is Buffalo going to screw it up. You can only say golly gee wiz wait until next year for so long.
 

Then add cities like Miami winning tons of majorchampionships that could care less about all there team’s winning 2 World Series, 2 Super Bowls, multiple NBA championships and NCAA championships in college football and here is Buffalo waiting and waiting. I had a hard time rooting for Sam Reinhart on the Florida (Miami) Panthers. I don’t feel warm and fuzzy inside with where he went Miami. Then the ease that the Vegas Golden Knights won a Stanley Cup in 6 years it is ridiculous it just adds to the ridiculous of our Buffalo sports teams failures. At some point rooting for former Buffalo players winning championships isn’t enough you want Buffalo to actually win one for us in Buffalo in my opinion. Go Bills! Let’s Go Buffalo 

[cgg716]

2 hours ago, BillsPride12 said:

Regarding Point #2)  I commented on the same thing today watching with my buddies.  I mentioned how I think Josh is far more athletically talented than Kelly ever was but you would never see Kelly sitting there, moping on the bench with a deer in the headlights look that is starting to become all too common with Allen lately.  I don't get it, I'm not sure where the fire has gone

They "coached" the fire right out of him

[EasternOHBillsFan]

1 hour ago, AlCowlingsTaxiService said:

Ok … 63 years since your first game experience.  Thought you meant 63 years on earth 😂

 

So you were the same age the last time the Bills won a championship when I was when the Pirates won the World Series, 6 years old. It's so frustrating not being able to remember much of the greatest moment in sports... most Bills fans are Yankees fans but no, not me, I'm a masochist!

[BeastMaster]

2 hours ago, Dr.Sack said:

I’m normally a firey guy who can be a bit negative. I have absolutely no problem with the effort today. To me it comes down to execution and we were just off in the first half on offense. Correct some issues and we will start winning. To me that involves less snaps for Knox and Davis and more 11 personnel.

This team is regressing. They are now struggling to beat bad teams with bad QB's

 

Correcting issues isn't something veteran teams that are supposed to be contenders are typically doing 

 

You're nuts if you think we are beating any team with a real coaching staff and a QB at this point. Playoffs are a longhsot at this point

[Another Fan]

3 hours ago, BillsPride12 said:

Regarding Point #2)  I commented on the same thing today watching with my buddies.  I mentioned how I think Josh is far more athletically talented than Kelly ever was but you would never see Kelly sitting there, moping on the bench with a deer in the headlights look that is starting to become all too common with Allen lately.  I don't get it, I'm not sure where the fire has gone

He's got um the problem now Jay Z bragged about not having despite 99 other ones? 

[AlfaBill]

2 hours ago, ngbills said:

My fear with Allen is that he has come to think that life is more than football. He is thinking about life after football. He is thinking about Monday through Saturday. Football is now just a paycheck. He has a to of $, has already overachieved, has his Hollywood girlfriend. 

Omg. What a hot take. 

[BILLieve85]

3 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

In general I am more the optimistic type and don’t buy into the weekly nonsense doom and gloom that permeates the board. 

Don't agree with all of this (yes some) but appreciate the additional viewpoint

[Airseven]

1 hour ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Josh actually said something in the last week or 2 about the need for him to stop showing his emotions so much. He said that was something he was really working on. Matt Parrino and Ryan Talbot on their Shout podcast said they've noticed a difference in the last few weeks. That could explain the stoicism. Maybe he took it too far.

Talk about being in your own head. Yikes.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

3 hours ago, zow2 said:

For the record i think when they made it 22-17 or maybe it was 25-22 Josh came to the bench walking up and down was screaming hyping everyone up.  So to say he was sitting like a deer in headlights is true for part of the game but not when the game was on the line. He was up and doing his part.

They love the sad qb shot on network television…guarantee you he was pumping people up most of the game 

 

im sure he’s a bit frustrated this is 5 years now of hardly any pass pro.  I’m sure he’s frustrated with himself for leaving plays out there too 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Toyo321]

When Josh started buying in to the whole Celebrity thing, he has not been the same at QB.

[SCBills]

Prior to today, I was always concerned that maybe the Bills can’t win it all led by McDermott. 
 

I hate, absolutely hate, that I’m starting to wonder the same about Allen. 

[mrags]

1 hour ago, BillsPride12 said:

That I disagree with 

He was just trying to maintain a level playing field when playing against LT 

Oh. Is that why he tried one upping him with beating the crap out of his pregnant wife and cheating on her every weekend?

[Billsflyer12]

2 hours ago, mrags said:

Only 5 coaches in 40 years. Ugh. 
 

the link I was referring to was something about coaches and QBs. Something like if it’s not done within the first 5 years of being together has never Happened. I don’t remember the facts of it. So in that case someone’s gonna have to go. I’m sticking with Allen. McClappy can go. Unfortunately, I’m not sure it happens that way. I think McD is going to suck all the life out of Allen and he’s going to leave buffalo. Once he gets another year or maybe 2, he’ll be looking for a trade to a REAL Competitor. 

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-coaches-and-qbs-should-divorce-after-five-years-of-not-winning/

 

No coach/qb combo in NFL history won their 1st Super Bowl together after year 5 together, is the actual stat.  The article is a few years old but the stat still continues till now.
 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Billsflyer12

[Einstein]

11 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

guarantee you he was pumping people up most of the game 

 

Not likely.

 

Honestly it’s not Allen’s style. Go to the stadium and watch the bench during the game and he mostly just chills. I don’t think he is super comfortable in the outwardly vocal leadership role (just a personality thing).

[HurlyBurly51]

3 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

 

2.  Josh is loved by all, but something is going on with him.  And it is not just him not running as much.  Whether it is football or non-football related I don’t know.  But I said to my wife today that he almost seemed disinterested during the game.  And I was shocked to think that.  The QB is a de facto team leader, and especially when a captain.  I pooh poohed  those the last few weeks saying he should not just sit by himself on the bench, but today I was struck by his attitude.   Wasn’t doing anything to get the team going.  Sadly, if I was asked right now whether Josh reminds me more of Kelly or Fergy, personality wise it would be Fergy.  And I’m not sure that personality in a QB can win a championship regardless if physical talent.  He needs to look inside himself and figure out his issues.

No mention of Hailee yet?  Huh

[juno999]

40 minutes ago, BeastMaster said:

This team is regressing. They are now struggling to beat bad teams with bad QB's

 

Correcting issues isn't something veteran teams that are supposed to be contenders are typically doing 

 

You're nuts if you think we are beating any team with a real coaching staff and a QB at this point. Playoffs are a longhsot at this point

I'm just looking for the next win.  Whenever that is.