In retrospect, was letting McKenzie go a mistake?

[ChicagoRic]

6 weeks in, is Deonte Harty an upgrade, a downgrade, or wash?

 

For all of the heat he took, McKenzie had, statistically speaking, the best year of his career. 

 

As per usual, I'm just starting the discussion, which is sure to piss some posters off, but there you have it.

 

Discuss.

[BuffBillsForLife]

The only mistake was not letting him go sooner.  Harty might not be it but lil dirty certainly wasn't either.

[Green Lightning]

No.

[Shortchaz]

Last night’s game was the type of game where McKenzie would’ve muffed a punt 

[Gunsgoodtime]

It's a wash imo.  Kind of figured it would be that way.  We really need to try to upgrade WR, year 2 of not doing so

[Xwnyer]

7 minutes ago, ChicagoRic said:

6 weeks in, is Deonte Harty an upgrade, a downgrade, or wash?

 

For all of the heat he took, McKenzie had, statistically speaking, the best year of his career. 

 

As per usual, I'm just starting the discussion, which is sure to piss some posters off, but there you have it.

 

Discuss.

The OC is the downgrade.  We no longer do jet sweeps, we put Diggs in motion for a wr screen and use David edwards as our motion🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️.  We don’t design plays to utilize the slot receiver or TE as first read.     Give me a better Oc and watch this team fly , sure we don’t have the speed of Miami but they utilize the spread to get folks open making it easy for Tua.

[Rc2catch]

They are better off without McKenzie. 
Solid guy, solid depth piece that can play many roles. Shouldn’t be on the field for a playoff team unless there’s major injuries. 
Harty should get more actual snaps not just the couple gadget plays. They need a speed deep threat that takes the top off defenses. Sub out Gabe for a handful of plays and put Harty in. Just one route, go deep. His speed in a 1 on 1 with Allen’s arm should scare defensive coordinators. I also think he’d be very valuable when plays break down and Allen’s making magic happen. I like Davis more than most, but I don’t like him playing 90% of the offensive snaps every week. 

[JoPoy88]

14 minutes ago, ChicagoRic said:

6 weeks in, is Deonte Harty an upgrade, a downgrade, or wash?

 

For all of the heat he took, McKenzie had, statistically speaking, the best year of his career. 

 

As per usual, I'm just starting the discussion, which is sure to piss some posters off, but there you have it.

 

Discuss.

He’s an upgrade at returner for sure. McKenzie was always shaky back there

[Process]

McKenzie has 39 yards this year. 

 

He is not good. Playing with Allen is the only reason he is relevant at all. 

 

The Harty move was a huge bust. Doesn't mean we should have kept Isaiah. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Shakir should be the primary slot guy when it's not Kincaid.

[Logic]

No. 

The issue is that the guy we got to replace McKenzie isn't being used to his full potential.

Ken Dorsey has been using Deonte Harty poorly.

He is using Harty solely as a gadget/motion/swing pass guy, similarly to how McKenzie was often used here. In point of fact, Harty ought to be used as a deep threat, to stretch defenses and open up space underneath for Diggs and Knox and Kincaid to do work in the middle of the field.

It is frankly baffling that we're a third of the way through the season and have only seen one deep pass from Josh Allen to Deonte Harty. It should be a regular occurrence. Harty's speed and separation ability plus Allen's arm -- when so much defensive attention is being paid elsewhere, theoretically leaving Harty in advantageous matchups -- should equal frequent big plays.

Letting McKenzie go was fine. Misusing/underusing the guy that replaced him is the mistake.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Logic

[Freddie's Dead]

Hell yes. We paid 10M for the replacement and then never use him. Sharty is largely ineffective as a PR, and made his first play on offense last night with the TD. 6 games in. Total waste. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Harty isn’t even playing much. I don’t know if it’s because of special teams but it better not be that.

 

I really thought we’d see him play the majority of slot snaps this game. He got like 10 snaps.

[FireChans]

28 minutes ago, ChicagoRic said:

6 weeks in, is Deonte Harty an upgrade, a downgrade, or wash?

 

For all of the heat he took, McKenzie had, statistically speaking, the best year of his career. 

 

As per usual, I'm just starting the discussion, which is sure to piss some posters off, but there you have it.

 

Discuss.

Getting rid of a guy who kinda sucks isn’t a bad move if you replace him with a guy who kinda sucks. 
 

It’s just nothing.

Edited October 16, 2023 by FireChans

[Chaos]

5 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Getting rid of a guy who kinda sucks isn’t a bad move if you replace him with a guy who kinda sucks. 
 

It’s just nothing.

Harty seems to waste a bit more salary cap

[FireChans]

8 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Harty seems to waste a bit more salary cap

That’s how you know there is a huge disconnect with our offensive personnel acquisitions and how they are used.

 

It’s possible I suppose that Brandon Beane is incapable of acquiring decent players that can fill niche roles. More likely, it’s that our dope of a coordinator can’t use them. 
 

Isaiah McKenzie was almost out of the league when the Bills grabbed him, and Daboll wrung every last drop of talent out of him, and got decent production. Dorsey took over and he’s now playing on a vet minimum again. 
 

There is not a single offensive player who Dorsey has made better. 

[Chaos]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

That’s how you know there is a huge disconnect with our offensive personnel acquisitions and how they are used.

 

It’s possible I suppose that Brandon Beane is incapable of acquiring decent players that can fill niche roles. More likely, it’s that our dope of a coordinator can’t use them. 
 

Isaiah McKenzie was almost out of the league when the Bills grabbed him, and Daboll wrung every last drop of talent out of him, and got decent production. Dorsey took over and he’s now playing on a vet minimum again. 
 

There is not a single offensive player who Dorsey has made better. 

There is a whole interesting discussion that I have not seen before, on player development.  I personally don't know how much is simply talent and readiness coming into the league, and how much players can be coached up. Compare Torrence and Spencer Brown, Torrence is already good. Brown still is not good. Would be better coaching matter? I don't really know. 

[BananaB]

As much as I wanted to get rid of McKenzie it’s hard to argue that he wouldn’t make this offense better at this point. Sherfield and Harty have done nothing 

Edited October 16, 2023 by BananaB

[DapperCam]

I think he was good for the vibes. Pretty much a wash though (not a wash in terms of cap hit).

[FireChans]

11 minutes ago, Chaos said:

There is a whole interesting discussion that I have not seen before, on player development.  I personally don't know how much is simply talent and readiness coming into the league, and how much players can be coached up. Compare Torrence and Spencer Brown, Torrence is already good. Brown still is not good. Would be better coaching matter? I don't really know. 

I think it's hard, because some players just suck.

 

But, for a nice little example, let's look at the defense. Last year they had Tre looking kinda bad post-injury, lost Von, lost Hyde etc. The defense clearly wasn't elite, but were they awful?  No way.

 

The defense this year. They lose three of their best players, Tre (who was rounding into form), Milano (probably the best defender currently), Daquan Jones, and Von doesn't look ready. That's FOUR starting positions, with elite pricetags amongst most of them. Meanwhile, we have guys like AJE stepping up, Leonard Floyd taking over games, Terrell Bernard and Dorian Williams filling in. 

 

Is our defense perfect? Nope. Is our defense doing pretty good considering the circumstances?  Yep.

 

Imagine the offense losing 3 or 4 of their best players (and for sake of the argument, leave out Allen who plays the most important position). Would we be able to get a first down outside of Allen running over linebackers?

 

Is it possible Shakir sucks, Stevensen sucks, McKenzie sucks, Harty sucks, Sherfield sucks, Kincaid sucks, Knox sucks?  Yes.  Do I think there's a possibility that an actual good coordinator could make them better than they are?  Yes.

 

Ray Ray McCloud is a nobody,, a fringe roster dude. Yet somehow, some other teams have been able to wring something out of him.   Our OC cannot.  What's even more troubling is that most great QB's can make a lot of their players look better than they are. JuJu in KC looked a lot different than he does today. We don't do that either really, which is how you know the coach is a complete dud.

Edited October 16, 2023 by FireChans

[Chugga]

Add Harty to the list.  Harty, Hines, Sherfield, Crowder, Kincaid.  Signings or draft picks that were brought in for a specific reason then go on to get almost zero usage.  I used to get excited at a speedy or gadget signing but none of those guys have been worked into the gameplan.  Harty is just 2022’s Nyheim Hines.

[Maine-iac]

At least Harty can field punts.  McKenzie had hands of stone.  Whether it's Dorsey or Allen we haven't had a short ball control passing game since Beasley left.

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, ChicagoRic said:

6 weeks in, is Deonte Harty an upgrade, a downgrade, or wash?

 

For all of the heat he took, McKenzie had, statistically speaking, the best year of his career. 

 

As per usual, I'm just starting the discussion, which is sure to piss some posters off, but there you have it.

 

Discuss.

 

https://stathead.com/football/versus-finder.cgi?player_id2=McKeIs00&year_min=2023&player_id1=HarrDe07&seasons_type=forall&request=1&utm_campaign=2023_01_wdgt_player_comparison&utm_source=pfr&utm_medium=sr_xsite&utm_id=HarrDe07

 

In theory, Harty should be able to run a fuller route tree and track the ball deep.

 

In practice, that's not at all how he's being used

 

Sometimes I feel like Beane stocks the offensive pantry with guys who should be able to do all these cool things and our offensive coaching just shrugs.

 

 

30 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

At least Harty can field punts.  McKenzie had hands of stone.  Whether it's Dorsey or Allen we haven't had a short ball control passing game since Beasley left.

 

And yet for the Colts, McKenzie is doing Just That Thing

 

 

33 minutes ago, Chugga said:

Add Harty to the list.  Harty, Hines, Sherfield, Crowder, Kincaid.  Signings or draft picks that were brought in for a specific reason then go on to get almost zero usage.  I used to get excited at a speedy or gadget signing but none of those guys have been worked into the gameplan.  Harty is just 2022’s Nyheim Hines.

 

I'm afraid you may have a point here.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Beck Water

[Dr.Sack]

Harty is good. Shurfield is good too. Use them. Spread it around, design them some more plays. 

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

No. 

The issue is that the guy we got to replace McKenzie isn't being used to his full potential.

Ken Dorsey has been using Deonte Harty poorly.

He is using Harty solely as a gadget/motion/swing pass guy, similarly to how McKenzie was often used here. In point of fact, Harty ought to be used as a deep threat, to stretch defenses and open up space underneath for Diggs and Knox and Kincaid to do work in the middle of the field.

It is frankly baffling that we're a third of the way through the season and have only seen one deep pass from Josh Allen to Deonte Harty. It should be a regular occurrence. Harty's speed and separation ability plus Allen's arm -- when so much defensive attention is being paid elsewhere, theoretically leaving Harty in advantageous matchups -- should equal frequent big plays.

Letting McKenzie go was fine. Misusing/underusing the guy that replaced him is the mistake.

 

This.

[Matt_In_NH]

The volume is not there but Harty is an upgrade.  

[DrDawkinstein]

No.

[Punching Bag]

1 minute ago, Chugga said:

Add Harty to the list.  Harty, Hines, Sherfield, Crowder, Kincaid.  Signings or draft picks that were brought in for a specific reason then go on to get almost zero usage.  I used to get excited at a speedy or gadget signing but none of those guys have been worked into the gameplan.  Harty is just 2022’s Nyheim Hines.

 

Exactly but hopefully if Hines had been not hurt during offseason  Harty would have done a different role/

[TheyCallMeAndy]

1 hour ago, ChicagoRic said:

6 weeks in, is Deonte Harty an upgrade, a downgrade, or wash?

 

For all of the heat he took, McKenzie had, statistically speaking, the best year of his career. 

 

As per usual, I'm just starting the discussion, which is sure to piss some posters off, but there you have it.

 

Discuss.

Dirty is a FA, they could bring him back if needed. 

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

Through 6 games harty is a huge bust totaling 103 yards or 17 yards a game at a 9.5 million dollar salary.

 

You read that right, harty is averaging 17 yards a game at 4.5 million this year !

 

We should have kept Lil Dirty !

[hondo in seattle]

2 hours ago, ChicagoRic said:

6 weeks in, is Deonte Harty an upgrade, a downgrade, or wash?

 

For all of the heat he took, McKenzie had, statistically speaking, the best year of his career. 

 

As per usual, I'm just starting the discussion, which is sure to piss some posters off, but there you have it.

 

Discuss.

 

The biggest problem with this offense so far this season isn't the slot position.  It's Dorsey.  Harty is fine.  

[Beck Water]

16 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Dirty is a FA, they could bring him back if needed. 

 

Still listed on the Colts roster, so No.

[thenorthremembers]

Mckenzie sealed his fate by running off at the mouth about the coaching staff.  He was way too loose lipped for a guy who could be so easily replaced.

 

Currently has 5 catchers for 39 yards to Hartys 12/103.   Harty isn't being used the same way Lil Dirty was but I wouldn't say he isn't as good.

 

Neither guy is someone the Bills wouldn't be able to replace.

[Beck Water]

4 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

The biggest problem with this offense so far this season isn't the slot position.  It's Dorsey.  Harty is fine.  

 

Harty may be fine, Harty may not be fine, but we don't know because he's seeing a whopping 21% of the snaps thus far this season - 16% vs. the Giants.

 

[LABILLBACKER]

2 hours ago, BuffBillsForLife said:

The only mistake was not letting him go sooner.  Harty might not be it but lil dirty certainly wasn't either.

At least Harty seems to have decent hands and has gotten a couple clutch 1st downs. He's not going to return kicks/ punts like Hines.  It's somewhere between a wash with edge to Harty.  We gotta increase wheel/fly route type of plays for him.

[ganesh]

2 hours ago, Gunsgoodtime said:

It's a wash imo.  Kind of figured it would be that way.  We really need to try to upgrade WR, year 2 of not doing so

or put Kincaid inthe slot and give Shakir the opportunity to work with Allen.

[Punching Bag]

McKenzie was an excellent special player but poor regular player.   Each game plan had to be tailored for his skill set.  

He made plays hard for defenses to account for.

One of the most important roles he played was when he emulated mobile QBs like Jackson - defenses got true preparation.

McKenzie's ego however was larger than his ability to work on his weaknesses.

One thing about him he never cost teams as much in cap than some of the players brought to Bills on potential.

[Beck Water]

1 minute ago, thenorthremembers said:

Mckenzie sealed his fate by running off at the mouth about the coaching staff.  He was way too loose lipped for a guy who could be so easily replaced.

 

Currently has 5 catchers for 39 yards to Hartys 12/103.   Harty isn't being used the same way Lil Dirty was but I wouldn't say he isn't as good.

 

Neither guy is someone the Bills wouldn't be able to replace.

 

The problem I have with Harty is how much we're paying him compared to how much we're using him.  $3.745M cap this year, $5.365 next year.

He's on track for a 34 reception, 300 yd, 3 TD, 17 1D season playing 21% of the snaps.

 

The oft-maligned McKenzie put up 42 receptions, 423 yds, 30 1D and 5 TD for just a fraction over vet minimum last season.  Harty is being more efficient per-snap since McKenzie saw 54% of the offensive snaps to put up that production, but it's kind of strange to me that we're paying like 3x as much to a guy we use less than half as much.

[TheyCallMeAndy]

25 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Still listed on the Colts roster, so No.

My bad, I thought he was released! 

[JohnNord]

2 hours ago, ChicagoRic said:

6 weeks in, is Deonte Harty an upgrade, a downgrade, or wash?

 

For all of the heat he took, McKenzie had, statistically speaking, the best year of his career. 

 

As per usual, I'm just starting the discussion, which is sure to piss some posters off, but there you have it.

 

Discuss.

I think that 6 games into the season is way too early to make a definitive statement on Hardy.  The touchdown last night and the long pass he caught versus Jacksonville shows that he can make plays and just needs to be given opportunities.  I’m not sure he’s had that in Buffalo.

 

The difference is that McKenzie had many opportunities to show what he can do.  He flourished as a “gadget” receiver but showed that he wasn’t strong enough to be a full time slot WR.  
 

So I think Hardy is capable of doing more…he just hasn’t been target much.