Do the Bills need a Nose Tackle?

[3rdand12]

7 hours ago, Chas56 said:

They need at least one stout DT. Call him whatever, but they need to get stronger up the middle. That includes MLB. I liked Edmunds side-to-side, but he wasn’t great at hitting gaps hard. Actually having 3 LBs would help cover the sides without Edmunds allowing a MLB to fill holes with a big man holding ground and Oliver helping do that, too. 

Oliver aint holding ground and neither is Phillips. they both play penetrating DT.
 

[3rdand12]

7 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

Wasted thread, imo, while McDermott is HC. He’s strictly a 4-3 guy. No sense dreaming about alternatives.

You can still run 1T in a four three , Nickel and dime even depending on what you have behind him and how you cover the flats for RO etc.

 

 I missed Harrison Phillips btw

[3rdand12]

5 hours ago, The Jokeman said:

We need more of a penetrating DT more than a traditional nose, see Aaron Darnold, Warren Sapp, John Randle or even a better all around version of Jordan Phillips type. As Da'Quan Jones does a solid job keeping offensive lineman off LBs to make tackles. Yet as eluded we don't have anyone under contract after this season. The guy I'd love for us to land is Keeanu Benton who should be there in Round 2. As he's strong at the point and showed in Senior Bowl practices he's got some speed that didn't use as much with the Badgers. 

Respectfully disagree, at this point.
Let the blitz disguises  bring that.

But yes that what McD wants. not working so far

[Augie]

25 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

Oliver aint holding ground and neither is Phillips. they both play penetrating DT.
 

 

Oliver was especially not holding ground with the high ankle sprain last year. People seem to forget about that, he played hurt for quite a while. That is NOT a quick heal, especially if you keep playing on it. Kudos to him for toughing it out. There was a video somewhere showing what a DT has to do to anchor and how brutal that is on an ankle. I mean, just think about that…..

 

It hurt his game in every way, including what he is there for, which is quick penetration. 

[3rdand12]

1 minute ago, Augie said:

 

Oliver was especially not holding ground with the high ankle sprain last year. People seem to forget about that, he played hurt for quite a while. That is NOT a quick heal, especially if you keep playing on it. Kudos to him for toughing it out. There was a video somewhere showing what a DT has to do to anchor and how brutal that is on an ankle. I mean, just think about that…..

 

It hurt his game in every way, including what he is there for, which is quick penetration. 

No question my friend.
Ed does what he does very well. When 100% and fits McD scheme of things.
I would suggest we need to change the scheme a tad 🙃

 

[Free Speech]

I think they take one in the first two rounds

 

[SoCal Deek]

Everyone keeps saying we don’t have a DT under contract next year…but may I suggest that that doesn’t mean we won’t be re-signing a few of our own. It’s not as if there’s gonna be a long line looking for players that most on here couldn’t care less about. 

Edited April 11, 2023 by SoCal Deek

[Sharky7337]

Does Michael Irvin need nose candy?

[bills_fan]

I will say to the original posters question that I forlornly miss the days when Mount Washington lined up next to Phat Pat and we dared any time

to run on us. We also had that guy named Bruce at DE. I could have been the other DE and we would have still be Axl Rose level rock star status on the d line. I wish we did more drafting and developing of nose tackles bc that ***** worked. Let the 2 big guys hold back 3 offensive linemen, plus a chipping rb or te and the Defensive ends fly toward the qb with the occasional blitzes to keep everyone honest.

 

im just gonna say…me likely very much!!!

[RyanC883]

After getting no rush against Bengals backup OL we need DT help.  Would love Mazzi Smith but he likely goes too high for a blocker/space eater.  The DTs from Texas, Wake and Wisconsin come up up in my mocks.  Can’t recall their names. 

[Mikie2times]

14 minutes ago, bills_fan said:

I will say to the original posters question that I forlornly miss the days when Mount Washington lined up next to Phat Pat and we dared any time

to run on us. We also had that guy named Bruce at DE. I could have been the other DE and we would have still be Axl Rose level rock star status on the d line. I wish we did more drafting and developing of nose tackles bc that ***** worked. Let the 2 big guys hold back 3 offensive linemen, plus a chipping rb or te and the Defensive ends fly toward the qb with the occasional blitzes to keep everyone honest.

 

im just gonna say…me likely very much!!!

That 99 defense had Bruce, Phil, and Washington. It was arguably the best defense in Bills history and that team, arguably goes to the Super Bowl that year if it wasn’t for MCM. 

[Virgil]

12 hours ago, aristocrat said:

defense was so vulnerable when jones didn't play so getting another guy is maybe my biggest need for this team tbh. 

I will fight you 

[Big Turk]

Yes! My favorite memory of playing football on a video game growing up was from Joe Montana football where the QB fumbled it and the announcer said "The quarterback hands off to the nose tackle!"

[BillsShredder83]

13 hours ago, Yantha said:

Change is coming in the 2023 season.  We will have a new DC, with a different philosophy, we've lost our starting MLB and questions remain as to who the starting linebackers will be.  I think it's fair to say that our DL depth is better than our LB depth, but another question has arisen.  "Should we trade Oliver?".

 

Other questions I've seen come up is IF Bernard is the next man up, will the DL need a Nose Tackle to eat up blocks and help Bernard play to his attributes/abilities?  I'll add that even IF we draft Campbell (or any other rookie MLB...), maybe a nose tackle would help the team overall anyways....  even if Tremaine was still here.

 

This thread is to discuss defensive schemes, and whether a pure Nose Tackle should be part of the conversation during this draft.  I'm listing profiles of some prospects that can be discussed here as well.

 

DT Siaki Ika, Baylor (335 lbs) - projected 3rd rounder

 

 

 

 

DT Keondre Coburn, Texas (332 lbs) - Projected 4th round

 

 

 

DT Brodrick Martin, W. Kentucky (330 lbs) - projected 6th round

Sorry, no highlight video....

 

love love this idea. seems like a higher impact andddd better use of resources to help the D out then trying to draft a LB'er high. take a big boy, take a mid round backer, sniff around some late cut LBers, and mix in more 3 LB sets. we dont have the personnel for 2 LB D anymore, and even when we did I wasnt in love w/ it

[Bubba Gump]

Is there still such thing as a pure nose tackle anymore? It always seems to be interior D-lineman. When I think of nose tackle, I think of Fred Smerlas. That Pats lovin chowderhead. 

[BillsShredder83]

13 hours ago, The Wiz said:

Edmunds was good at hitting the gaps hard.  Problem was it was usually the wrong gap.

Girlfriends hate this one trick

13 hours ago, mjt328 said:

Depends on what you mean by a Nose Tackle.

 

Traditionally, the NT position is a 0-Tech defensive lineman in a 3-4 scheme.  Since Sean McDermott does not run this alignment and probably never will, I don't see us using any resources on a player with this skillset.

 

Now I have occasionally seen the 1-Tech lineman (4-3 scheme) also referred to as a Nose Tackle, although that's not the most commonly used positional term.  This is the spot played by DaQuan Jones on our defense.  Personally I would like to sign Jones to an extension and keep him as the starter.  But I wouldn't be opposed to adding a backup on Day 3.

 

a bit random..... did Buff run a 3-4 early Dareus years? Im leaning towards no but cant remember/kinda young to been paying attention to def fronts

[BillsShredder83]

1 hour ago, KzooMike said:

That 99 defense had Bruce, Phil, and Washington. It was arguably the best defense in Bills history and that team, arguably goes to the Super Bowl that year if it wasn’t for MCM. 

You get C- instead of an F for abbreviating it, but F-L works if thats the route youre looking for

[RiotAct]

14 hours ago, aristocrat said:

defense was so vulnerable when jones didn't play so getting another guy is maybe my biggest need for this team tbh. 

I would agree, except I remember our franchise QB scrambling for his ever-loving life in like 3/4ths of last season’s games.

[aristocrat]

23 minutes ago, RiotAct said:

I would agree, except I remember our franchise QB scrambling for his ever-loving life in like 3/4ths of last season’s games.

right tackle also a need and is like 1b for me . Still sort of have hope for spencer brown

[gobills404]

I’m really starting to warm up to the idea of taking Mazi Smith at 27 if all the premier offensive talent is off the board. Straight up monster against the run so him and Daquan would make life extremely easy on whoever is playing MLB next year. Also a freak athlete with long arms which means lots of upside as a pass rusher.

[ProcessTruster]

Sure, if McDermott intends to completely change the defensive scheme (4-2-5) he's used for over 10 years.   If he's sticking with what he's used very successfully for over 10 years , then no, we are not interested in a true 3-4 NT.   I think we know which of these is the case. 

 

Next.  

[Beck Water]

23 hours ago, Yantha said:

 

Yep, I agree with everything you are saying here.  Just wondering if we will see a mix of different schemes that call for a different skill set.  The defense COULD look very different this year.  You never know what Beane/McD have planned....

 

I think it's very unlikely that any changes McDermott wants to implement would involve switching up to a 3-4 type D with a true NT.

 

The kind of things we're more likely to see would be some of the stuff Cover1 put together on his Carolina D where he did things like double A gap blitzes or rolling the DE inside and having LB on the ends, some drop some rush but who?

 

23 hours ago, mrags said:

At the very least they will need to draft someone as none of the DTs on the current roster are signed past this season. You could go anyway you’d like with the draft. And go with a replacement for Jones, or Oliver. Or a hybrid of both. Really anyone over 305lb could do either position in this defense. Assuming the rest of the traits are there. Oliver is way too small for either position imo and should be more like a DE in a 3-4. Or next to someone who’s an absolute monster in the 1T

 

I do think Beane (and McDermott) over-value under-sized players.   In HS and for McDermott, in college, they succeeded as players who were not as big or tall as some of their peers, and who just out-worked and out-competed them.  The whole "not the size of the dog in the fight, size of the fight in the dog" trope is something they both personally lived and had some success with.

And I do somewhat understand where they're coming from - there was a time when I thought the Bills were too much into the opposite strategy, like drafting and trying to develop players who had ideal measurables but who really weren't "all that" as football players.  James Hardy at 6'6" in 2008 comes to mind.   A guy can have ideal physique and athleticism but if he isn't dedicated to his craft in all aspects (rehabbing injuries, watching film, burning desire to be great) he won't make it.

 

The thing is, once you get to the top level of teams where the players are equally fired up and dedicated, big man wins.

[Yantha]

8 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I think it's very unlikely that any changes McDermott wants to implement would involve switching up to a 3-4 type D with a true NT.

 

The kind of things we're more likely to see would be some of the stuff Cover1 put together on his Carolina D where he did things like double A gap blitzes or rolling the DE inside and having LB on the ends, some drop some rush but who?

 

 

 

This is what I see as well.

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

"Did you say 'nose', or 'nosey'?

[2003Contenders]

11 hours ago, BillsShredder83 said:

a bit random..... did Buff run a 3-4 early Dareus years? Im leaning towards no but cant remember/kinda young to been paying attention to def fronts

 

Yes and no...

 

The chronology is that Jauron ran his version of the Tampa 2 with a base 4-3, but when Chan Gailey came aboard in 2010 he wanted to install a 3-4 scheme. Of course, he just wanted to run the offense himself, so brought in an underwhelming George Edwards (whom Gailey admitted was not a "household name") to run the defense. Buddy and Chan drafted Torell Troupe (a few spots in front of Gronk) to serve as their NT. He never panned out. A year later Dareus was drafted #3 overall with Edwards still running a failed 3-4 defense. Dareus was part of the rotation at NT.

 

Edwards was fired by the end of the season and Dave Wanstedt took over in 2012. He tried running both 3-4 and (mostly) 4-3 packages but neither worked successfully. Even with Mario Williams freshly signed, DW was surprisingly terrible as the DC. Marrone came along in 2013 and hired two very good DCs during his two years here, Pettine and Schwartz -- both of whom ran a 4-3 and got the best out of Dareus.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

On 4/10/2023 at 9:44 AM, Yantha said:

Change is coming in the 2023 season.  We will have a new DC, with a different philosophy, we've lost our starting MLB and questions remain as to who the starting linebackers will be.  I think it's fair to say that our DL depth is better than our LB depth, but another question has arisen.  "Should we trade Oliver?".

 

Other questions I've seen come up is IF Bernard is the next man up, will the DL need a Nose Tackle to eat up blocks and help Bernard play to his attributes/abilities?  I'll add that even IF we draft Campbell (or any other rookie MLB...), maybe a nose tackle would help the team overall anyways....  even if Tremaine was still here.

 

This thread is to discuss defensive schemes, and whether a pure Nose Tackle should be part of the conversation during this draft.  I'm listing profiles of some prospects that can be discussed here as well.

 

DT Siaki Ika, Baylor (335 lbs) - projected 3rd rounder

 

 

 

 

DT Keondre Coburn, Texas (332 lbs) - Projected 4th round

 

 

 

DT Brodrick Martin, W. Kentucky (330 lbs) - projected 6th round

WeSorry, no highlight video....

 

 

WE definitely need bigger tackles but not necessarily lineman occupier

 

 

[Dablitzkrieg]

When has McD ever ran a 3-4?  Trying to get to the QB with 3?  Not going to happen

[T master]

I don't think it would be a bad thing to get one in the pipeline for the future Daquan will be on the last year of his contract & moving forward Oliver will probably want to much money to be here after this season so Beane will need to replenish the D line depth & this would be a good place to start .

 

As McD & Beane say it all starts in the trenches !! GO BILLS !!! 

[In Summary]

On 4/10/2023 at 12:00 PM, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Right or wrong this regime prioritizes position flexibility and movement over size. I'm not even saying that is wrong, but that philosophy gets you burned at times. This defense over multiple seasons under McD gets steamrolled  by physical teams. Then there are times where they hold up against the run quite well. 

All that said, I would favor a big DT and big MLB. Others disagree. DT takes years to develop. Bills SB window is now. MLB and Edge can start right away. I'd favor drafting a MLB and/or edge this year and getting a veteran DT in free agency next year. 

Top 4 picks need to be 3 offense and 1 defense in no particular order. Getting Poyer and probably Hamlin back and the free agent safety buys you another year before needing to address safety in the draft.

Agree with you on Bills preferring speed/movement over size.  I don't like it though when the LB's are small and the other three D-linemen are prone to being moved.   

[Dopey]

On 4/10/2023 at 10:36 AM, mrags said:

 

Or 5 yards downfield 

Yeah, let's blame him for lining up where he was supposed to. We used him that way. As for the gaps, I showed on many occasions that our All Pro LB did the same thing. Dude, he's not here anymore. Find a new whipping boy and let Edmunds go already. Geez.

[TRIP65]

On 4/10/2023 at 9:55 AM, Chas56 said:

They need at least one stout DT. Call him whatever, but they need to get stronger up the middle. That includes MLB. I liked Edmunds side-to-side, but he wasn’t great at hitting gaps hard. Actually having 3 LBs would help cover the sides without Edmunds allowing a MLB to fill holes with a big man holding ground and Oliver helping do that, too. 

We don't play a 3-4 so no nose tackle. DT's are 1 or 3 technique at line. Some of our DE's can come in on passing downs so Oliver isn't really needed. Was hoping a Trade with Baltimore for Queen for Davis. Baltimore got Beckham but still need a blocking WR which Odell is not.

 

That would leave us room to get a DT in draft. Our 3 biggest needs right now are OT (swing), DT for next year, ILB. Not sure draft will lineup 1,2,3 for us on these positions unless you go small school on draft.

[TRIP65]

On 4/11/2023 at 11:27 AM, 2003Contenders said:

 

Yes and no...

 

The chronology is that Jauron ran his version of the Tampa 2 with a base 4-3, but when Chan Gailey came aboard in 2010 he wanted to install a 3-4 scheme. Of course, he just wanted to run the offense himself, so brought in an underwhelming George Edwards (whom Gailey admitted was not a "household name") to run the defense. Buddy and Chan drafted Torell Troupe (a few spots in front of Gronk) to serve as their NT. He never panned out. A year later Dareus was drafted #3 overall with Edwards still running a failed 3-4 defense. Dareus was part of the rotation at NT.

 

Edwards was fired by the end of the season and Dave Wanstedt took over in 2012. He tried running both 3-4 and (mostly) 4-3 packages but neither worked successfully. Even with Mario Williams freshly signed, DW was surprisingly terrible as the DC. Marrone came along in 2013 and hired two very good DCs during his two years here, Pettine and Schwartz -- both of whom ran a 4-3 and got the best out of Dareus.

You left out Philips, he knows how to run the 3-4. Ted Washington NT #1 defense. You need the NT and great linebackers for 3-4.

 

we lost 4 SB's because Bills got rid of Smerlas for Wright a 265 lb NT. Walt Corey should have been fired after the 1st. Same problem a Frazier, bend but don't break. Problem with that is OJ Anderson ran 10 mins out of 2nd half and Kelly had only 19 minutes of offense, lose 19-21 not because we missed FG because we couldn't stop an under average RB.

18 hours ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

When has McD ever ran a 3-4?  Trying to get to the QB with 3?  Not going to happen

Not without a Ted Washington or Bruce Smith

[Dopey]

On 4/10/2023 at 10:29 AM, The Wiz said:

Edmunds was good at hitting the gaps hard.  Problem was it was usually the wrong gap.

 

 

Keep an eye on our All Pro Milano. He starts out to the left of Edmunds and SOMEHOW ends up to the right of Edmunds. What the hell was he doing? Looks like he hits the wrong gaps too. There's no way that play was designed for Milano to go that far to his right. He completely hit the wrong gap. That TD was all on Milano, yet the first thing you see on TBD during the game time thread was blame for Edmunds. It happened more than people think. Why? Wanting to blame Edmunds for any long run. Sure, the safety took blame, but come on now. Edmunds is gone. Let him be. It's time to find a new whipping boy.

[TRIP65]

Bills could do a 3-4 with Philips at nose and Oliver, Jones DE

 

LB's then are OL - Vonn, Rousseau with ILB - Milano, Epensa (passing downs Benard).     Basham stays at DE backup. Backup nose is Settle Bryant

 

That would force us drafting backup OLB, DE. Still have Benard, Spector inside LB backups

[TheBeaneBandit]

2 minutes ago, TRIP65 said:

Bills could do a 3-4 with Philips at nose and Oliver, Jones DE

 

LB's then are OL - Vonn, Rousseau with ILB - Milano, Epensa (passing downs Benard).     Basham stays at DE backup. Backup nose is Settle Bryant

 

That would force us drafting backup OLB, DE. Still have Benard, Spector inside LB backups

Phillips would be a HORRIBLE nose. For his size he is one of the worst run defenders I've ever seen.

[mrags]

2 hours ago, Dopey said:

Yeah, let's blame him for lining up where he was supposed to. We used him that way. As for the gaps, I showed on many occasions that our All Pro LB did the same thing. Dude, he's not here anymore. Find a new whipping boy and let Edmunds go already. Geez.

I’m sorry Mrs. Edmunds. I’ll stop picking on your son. 

[Dopey]

3 minutes ago, mrags said:

4 minutes ago, mrags said:

I’m sorry Mrs. Edmunds. I’ll stop picking on your son. 

It’s OK, sugar. My baby is happy in Chicago. Just curious why a thread about nose tackles leads more Edmunds hate. My baby is gone, time to move on and quit acting like a jilted lover. 
 

Sincerely,

Cookie 

[NastyNateSoldiers]

On 4/10/2023 at 4:44 PM, Yantha said:

Change is coming in the 2023 season.  We will have a new DC, with a different philosophy, we've lost our starting MLB and questions remain as to who the starting linebackers will be.  I think it's fair to say that our DL depth is better than our LB depth, but another question has arisen.  "Should we trade Oliver?".

 

Other questions I've seen come up is IF Bernard is the next man up, will the DL need a Nose Tackle to eat up blocks and help Bernard play to his attributes/abilities?  I'll add that even IF we draft Campbell (or any other rookie MLB...), maybe a nose tackle would help the team overall anyways....  even if Tremaine was still here.

 

This thread is to discuss defensive schemes, and whether a pure Nose Tackle should be part of the conversation during this draft.  I'm listing profiles of some prospects that can be discussed here as well.

 

DT Siaki Ika, Baylor (335 lbs) - projected 3rd rounder

 

 

 

 

DT Keondre Coburn, Texas (332 lbs) - Projected 4th round

 

 

 

DT Brodrick Martin, W. Kentucky (330 lbs) - projected 6th round

Sorry, no highlight video....

 

I definitely like Ika more then Benton . 

[mrags]

1 hour ago, Dopey said:

It’s OK, sugar. My baby is happy in Chicago. Just curious why a thread about nose tackles leads more Edmunds hate. My baby is gone, time to move on and quit acting like a jilted lover. 
 

Sincerely,

Cookie 

Lol. You’re cute. 

[RiotAct]

On 4/11/2023 at 11:01 AM, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

"Did you say 'nose', or 'nosey'?

Bill Belichick is in the market for a few Nosey Tackles, I hear!!!