Sean is not a bad coach, just a bad fit for this team and era

[Billsflyer12]

Having a defensive head coach in a offensive/QB era is a real problem in 2 ways.

 

1). Continuity on offense.  If OC is good he is hired elsewhere, if OC is bad he is eventually fired.  Hired or fired is bad for QB and offensive consistency.  The QB and a OC Head Coach is the stability in this current young gun QB era that works the best.  7 of final 8 in this year’s playoffs were this setup.

 

2). HOF QB Steve Young talked about this recently and it was fascinating.  Basically he said having a defensive coach as head coach was a problem for the offense because his natural or maybe even unconscious traits are to make decisions that protect their defense.  I had never thought of it like this.  For me in playoffs you definitely see McDermott defaulting to this thinking, much to the detriment of the offense and team in general.  His game management decisions, either punt/go, FG/go or timeouts for example lean heavily toward protecting the defense.  His natural instincts in pressure moments are to trust a stop more than trust Josh to get 2 or 6 yds on 4th.

 

Sean is a good coach and likely a better man.  It’s just how he fits into this era and with how our team is built.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Billsflyer12

[Mr. WEO]

hear me out...

[KDIGGZ]

He was a good coach for a team that was routinely 7-9 and "in the hunt." He pushed us over that hump. He did his job. If this is the only coach Josh plays for then I think it will be a huge waste of talent during these prime years

[Nihilarian]

What is wrong with you people?

 

13-3 with the #2 offense, #2 defense points allowed, #6 in yards allowed after being riddled by injures not good enough? 

 

So, the team lost in the playoffs...get over it already! 

[Success]

People used to think of Reid the same way some talk about McD now.  Philly fans couldn't wait to get him out of town at a certain point.  Could coach a great regular season, but couldn't win "when it counted."

 

He's obviously a good coach.  If fans want to hold out for a "great" one, we might be waiting decades.  

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

6 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

What is wrong with you people?

 

13-3 with the #2 offense, #2 defense points allowed, #6 in yards allowed after being riddled by injures not good enough? 

 

So, the team lost in the playoffs...get over it already! 

Got smoked. But who's counting 

[Big Blitz]

6 minutes ago, Success said:

People used to think of Reid the same way some talk about McD now.  Philly fans couldn't wait to get him out of town at a certain point.  Could coach a great regular season, but couldn't win "when it counted."

 

He's obviously a good coach.  If fans want to hold out for a "great" one, we might be waiting decades.  

 

 

Because he was put into a different organization/locker room/new players.  
 

You can be a great coach and your time still can run out with your current team.  
 

Year 7 coming up.  
 

4 straight horrible playoff exits.  
 

At some point your locker room starts saying things like “it’s been 3 years….”

[Mr. WEO]

11 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

What is wrong with you people?

 

13-3 with the #2 offense, #2 defense points allowed, #6 in yards allowed after being riddled by injures not good enough? 

 

So, the team lost in the playoffs...get over it already! 

 

Did you post this last year?  2020? 2019?

[BADOLBILZ]

2 minutes ago, Success said:

People used to think of Reid the same way some talk about McD now.  Philly fans couldn't wait to get him out of town at a certain point.  Could coach a great regular season, but couldn't win "when it counted."

 

He's obviously a good coach.  If fans want to hold out for a "great" one, we might be waiting decades.  

 

 

Yeah Reid was 1-5 in conference championship games(and 0-1 in SB) and an incredible choker and clock botcher before the Chiefs won a SB with him.

 

His status as a legendary offensive mind is a bit overblown too.    He had a season in KC where a WR didn't catch a TD pass all season.

 

He's just a very good HC and things finally came together for him and he has the league's best QB.   I think McD is a very good HC as well.

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

42 minutes ago, Billsflyer12 said:

  His natural instincts in pressure moments are to trust a stop more than trust Josh to get 2 or 6 yds on 4th.

 

 

 If the above is true then why did he elect to go for it on 4th down 4 times against KC in the playoffs last year? He went for it on 4th down from the 50 on the opening drive of the game and again later in the drive on 4th and goal. He went for it on 4th down twice again on our 2nd to last td drive in the 4th. He also went for it on 4th down against KC on the opening drive of their playoff game the year prior and once again it was near midfield at KCs 48. He's 6/6 against KC on 4th down in their last 2 playoff games. He could've punted or kicked fgs in any of those situations and trusted his defense, but he didn't, he trusted Josh would get the 1st down/td.

 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2023 by LOVEMESOMEBILLS

[uticaclub]

28 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

What is wrong with you people?

 

13-3 with the #2 offense, #2 defense points allowed, #6 in yards allowed after being riddled by injures not good enough? 

 

So, the team lost in the playoffs...get over it already! 

No, we aren't going to get over it. 4 straight years in the playoffs, 4 straight defensive meltdowns. Getting to the playoffs isn't good enough anymore, it's Super Bowl or Bust time, and McDermott isn't the guy to get us there.

 

Step your game up

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

22 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

What is wrong with you people?

 

13-3 with the #2 offense, #2 defense points allowed, #6 in yards allowed after being riddled by injures not good enough? 

 

So, the team lost in the playoffs...get over it already! 

problem I have was promoting dorsey instead of bringing in a legit OC. it set the offense back. it was not time for learning on the job. also, frasier has/had his limitations although I feel had the injuries not occurred the defense would of been able to preform a hell of a lot better. trying to piece it together with 2nd and 3rd stringers was its demise.

 

getting to the playoffs just to get there doesn't say much. every player, coach and most fans know that that is not the ultimate goal. the goal is to win it all and at this point, unless serious changes are made in the offseason as well as getting back 40, 27 and 23 back to healthy, that ultimate goal wont be reached.

[SCBills]

Agree completely with the OP. 
 

Even more frustrating hearing how “it’s tough to win” or “the playoffs are a crapshoot”.  
 

Ok…

 

New England lived in the Super Bowl with Brady.  
 

KC has been there 3 of the last 4 years. 
 

The Bengals, relative newcomers, 2 years in a row in the AFC Championship Game. 
 

McDermott should get one more year to get us, at least, back to the AFC Championship Game.  If not, and even depending on how that game goes - should we not advance to the SB, discussions of moving on from him need to be had. 
 

 

Edited February 11, 2023 by SCBills

[uticaclub]

12 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah Reid was 1-5 in conference championship games(and 0-1 in SB) and an incredible choker and clock botcher before the Chiefs won a SB with him.

 

His status as a legendary offensive mind is a bit overblown too.    He had a season in KC where a WR didn't catch a TD pass all season.

 

He's just a very good HC and things finally came together for him and he has the league's best QB.   I think McD is a very good HC as well.

I think Reid was limited by McNabb in Philly, yes he was a good QB but nowhere near the level of Mahomes and Allen 

[Shaw66]

52 minutes ago, Billsflyer12 said:

Having a defensive head coach in a offensive/QB era is a real problem in 2 ways.

 

1). Continuity on offense.  If OC is good he is hired elsewhere, if OC is bad he is eventually fired.  Hired or fired is bad for QB and offensive consistency.  The QB and a OC Head Coach is the stability in this current young gun QB era that works the best.  7 of final 8 in this year’s playoffs were this setup.

 

2). HOF QB Steve Young talked about this recently and it was fascinating.  Basically he said having a defensive coach as head coach was a problem for the offense because his natural or maybe even unconscious traits are to make decisions that protect their defense.  I had never thought of it like this.  For me in playoffs you definitely see McDermott defaulting to this thinking, much to the detriment of the offense and team in general.  His game management decisions, either punt/go, FG/go or timeouts for example lean heavily toward protecting the defense.  His natural instincts in pressure moments are to trust a stop more than trust Josh to get 2 or 6 yds on 4th.

 

Sean is a good coach and likely a better man.  It’s just how he fits into this era and with how our team is built.

Defensive coach and HOF QB worked pretty well in New England.

 

 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

Another 'McD is bad!' thread?

Dick Enberg and George Takei both say

"Oh, my!"

[Big Blitz]

3 minutes ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

Another 'McD is bad!' thread?

Dick Enberg and George Takei both say

"Oh, my!"

 

The title literally say he’s not a bad coach.  
 

I think a lot of people (unfortunately it sounds like some key players are to) are starting to come to the realization that this regime’s time could be fast approaching an end - as someone said it may have plateaued.  
 

I’m not sure what evidence they have but I think it’s there - as we watch other teams start to pass us by in roster talent and playoff success - and that isn’t limited to the AFC either.   
 

 

At least Lindy Ruff had been to a Stanley Cup - but this team could start to look like the Sabres circa 2002-2012 real quick.  
 

That team had at least 2 “this should have been the year” seasons.  The 05-06 Sabres were the 13 Seconds Bills but at least they lost solely to running out of defensemen.  

[Airseven]

1 hour ago, Nihilarian said:

What is wrong with you people?

 

13-3 with the #2 offense, #2 defense points allowed, #6 in yards allowed after being riddled by injures not good enough? 

 

So, the team lost in the playoffs...get over it already! 

You’re right, it’s good enough! What’s the point of all this anyway.

[HappyDays]

He made a big mistake hiring a rookie OC. Josh Allen and Stefon Diggs in their prime deserve better. A sixteen year old driver doesn't start with a Ferrari. As a defensive minded head coach McDermott needs an experienced OC that he can mostly leave alone. It felt like they never really considered outside candidates. Dorsey "earned it the right way" so here's the keys to your Ferrari young man. I never got the sense that Dorsey was connecting plays together and he did a poor job keeping his star players under control. That's where his inexperience became a problem. And yes McDermott has to own that mistake.

[Bangarang]

5 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

He made a big mistake hiring a rookie OC. Josh Allen and Stefon Diggs in their prime deserve better. A sixteen year old driver doesn't start with a Ferrari. As a defensive minded head coach McDermott needs an experienced OC that he can mostly leave alone. It felt like they never really considered outside candidates. Dorsey "earned it the right way" so here's the keys to your Ferrari young man. I never got the sense that Dorsey was connecting plays together and he did a poor job keeping his star players under control. That's where his inexperience became a problem. And yes McDermott has to own that mistake.

 

It's probably naïve to think McD didn't consult with Allen about who he wanted and Allen himself said he wanted Dorsey so can you really blame him?

[HappyDays]

2 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

 

It's probably naïve to think McD didn't consult with Allen about who he wanted and Allen himself said he wanted Dorsey so can you really blame him?

 

Yes. McDermott is the head coach, not Allen. In that situation you sit Allen down and say "Look I know Dorsey is your guy, but I need to do the right thing for this team at this stage of our championship window." If he's scared to have that conversation with Allen he is not the right person to lead this team.

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, Billsflyer12 said:

Having a defensive head coach in a offensive/QB era is a real problem in 2 ways.

 

1). Continuity on offense.  If OC is good he is hired elsewhere, if OC is bad he is eventually fired.  Hired or fired is bad for QB and offensive consistency.  The QB and a OC Head Coach is the stability in this current young gun QB era that works the best.  7 of final 8 in this year’s playoffs were this setup.

 

2). HOF QB Steve Young talked about this recently and it was fascinating.  Basically he said having a defensive coach as head coach was a problem for the offense because his natural or maybe even unconscious traits are to make decisions that protect their defense.  I had never thought of it like this.  For me in playoffs you definitely see McDermott defaulting to this thinking, much to the detriment of the offense and team in general.  His game management decisions, either punt/go, FG/go or timeouts for example lean heavily toward protecting the defense.  His natural instincts in pressure moments are to trust a stop more than trust Josh to get 2 or 6 yds on 4th.

 

Sean is a good coach and likely a better man.  It’s just how he fits into this era and with how our team is built.

We went for it on fourth down a lot last year

[akcash]

Sounds like we need the D Gun (Dawson knox).

[Radar]

59 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Agree completely with the OP. 
 

Even more frustrating hearing how “it’s tough to win” or “the playoffs are a crapshoot”.  
 

Ok…

 

New England lived in the Super Bowl with Brady.  
 

KC has been there 3 of the last 4 years. 
 

The Bengals, relative newcomers, 2 years in a row in the AFC Championship Game. 
 

McDermott should get one more year to get us, at least, back to the AFC Championship Game.  If not, and even depending on how that game goes - should we not advance to the SB, discussions of moving on from him need to be had. 
 

 

Maybe we should be asking about the GM more than the coach. Unless the coach is making draft decisions.

[LabattBlue]

54 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Defensive coach and HOF QB worked pretty well in New England.

 

 

Not just a HoF QB, the GOAT…and do you really want to compare BB/TB with McD/JA? 
 

It is a moot point because he is not getting fired any time soon, but McD is a middle of the pack HC, and his playoff failures back that up. He is NOT a top 5 NFL HC. 

[Bangarang]

11 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yes. McDermott is the head coach, not Allen. In that situation you sit Allen down and say "Look I know Dorsey is your guy, but I need to do the right thing for this team at this stage of our championship window." If he's scared to have that conversation with Allen he is not the right person to lead this team.

 

Dorsey was largely considered next in line if Daboll got a HC job and not many people had an issue with it before it happened. I don't blame McD at all and I'm sure Dorsey was prepping behind the scenes for the likelihood that Daboll would be gone. The promotion made sense for a lot of reasons.

 

Who was the experienced OC you wanted instead?

[HappyDays]

31 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

Dorsey was largely considered next in line if Daboll got a HC job and not many people had an issue with it before it happened. I don't blame McD at all and I'm sure Dorsey was prepping behind the scenes for the likelihood that Daboll would be gone. The promotion made sense for a lot of reasons.

 

Well, I had an issue with it before it happened. Experience matters in any career. It was entirely predictable that once we got to the playoffs an inexperienced offensive play caller against a highly experienced defensive play caller was going to be a mismatch. I worry that we wasted a season of Josh Allen in his prime on Dorsey's training wheels. Best case scenario he takes a big step and ultimately gets hired away to be a head coach. Do we then let the next first timer in line do the same thing? As long as McDermott is here he needs someone with experience calling plays.

 

35 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

Who was the experienced OC you wanted instead?

 

My #1 desire was Doug Pederson. Obviously that ended up not being possible. I would have been okay with Joe Brady. I think he was more of a fall guy in Carolina and he had experience. Pep Hamilton is another one I would have looked at, he ended up in Houston. Right now personally I wish we could get rid of Dorsey and hire Frank Reich but there's pretty much no chance of that happening so I guess we're stuck. I'm no expert on all of the available names. I just want someone that has done the job before because our window is going to close fast.

[Billzgobowlin]

The same was said of Andy Reid before 3 years ago.  You look at someone like Sean Payton and he is one of the hottest names for teams this year.  He has one Super Bowl ring in how many years?  A great coach gives you a chance every year and we had a good shot this year. 

[Don Otreply]

Sean and Beane both need to stop thinking that the defense is more important than the offense, and get  the people on board who run those parts of the team to scheme better for the players they have, and as well be able and willing to make in game adjustments when things dictate those adjustments, and that they do so quickly, like with in each quarter. They, and their hires are a bit to rigid in their thinking/approach to team personnel priorities, and schemes, because, (as we all know) you win by scoring more points than your opponents score…,

 

GO  BILLS!!!

[billieve420]

People can blame Dorsey and he is not without fault. However, they put up similar numbers on offense this year. He does need to reign Josh in a little more but not establishing effective running game has been problematic for years now.

 

Offensive line is a huge weakness and upgrades are needed across the board. They brought in a senior defensive assistant and should do the same on the other side. Bring in Roman as a consultant get someone in the building to work with Dorsey on figuring that aspect. Don’t need to be great rushing the ball but at least need to be effective enough that opposing teams can’t completely ignore everyone other than the QB. Honestly inexcusable that the QB was leading rusher for majority of the year. Other than when the play breaks down the only time Josh needs to be running the ball on designed runs is in the redzone.

[Meatloaf63]

2 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

What is wrong with you people?

 

13-3 with the #2 offense, #2 defense points allowed, #6 in yards allowed after being riddled by injures not good enough? 

 

So, the team lost in the playoffs...get over it already! 

This decades San Diego Chargers, all the hype with zero trophies. You good with that when it’s all said and done?

[DCofNC]

2 hours ago, Success said:

People used to think of Reid the same way some talk about McD now.  Philly fans couldn't wait to get him out of town at a certain point.  Could coach a great regular season, but couldn't win "when it counted."

 

He's obviously a good coach.  If fans want to hold out for a "great" one, we might be waiting decades.  

Reid was an offensive coach before offense took over the league, he’s now running the most potent/consistent O in the league and winning Championships.

 

McD is a Defensive coach in an offensive era.  What the OP said is spot on.

[Nihilarian]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

He made a big mistake hiring a rookie OC. Josh Allen and Stefon Diggs in their prime deserve better. A sixteen year old driver doesn't start with a Ferrari. As a defensive minded head coach McDermott needs an experienced OC that he can mostly leave alone. It felt like they never really considered outside candidates. Dorsey "earned it the right way" so here's the keys to your Ferrari young man. I never got the sense that Dorsey was connecting plays together and he did a poor job keeping his star players under control. That's where his inexperience became a problem. And yes McDermott has to own that mistake.

Josh Allen wanted Ken Dorsey...whatever the franchise QB wants...

 

Yea, Dorsey will learn just like Daboll learned. Remember his first season? Still, the Buffalo Bills were the #2 offense this season. 

 

Bills fans just can't seem to get over the fact that they had a huge letdown against the Bengals on both sides of the ball. It is a game of emotion and all I can think of is the players were spent emotionally to play that down...at home...in the playoffs! Perhaps the coaches were too. It was a very difficult season. 

 

Beane and McD will figure things out, I have faith! 

[Success]

17 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

Reid was an offensive coach before offense took over the league, he’s now running the most potent/consistent O in the league and winning Championships.

 

McD is a Defensive coach in an offensive era.  What the OP said is spot on.

 

Reid has only been a little luckier, imo.  From a certain perspective, he has almost had the same futility as the Philly teams he was so criticized for.  They were down 20-10 in the SB they won, pretty late in the game. If not for a fantastic throw from Mahomes on 3rd and long, and a missed long throw from Garropolo, he might be getting looked at the same way.

 

McD needs better coordinators.  With Daboll last year, we arguably should have gone much further, and could have won it all.  I'm hopeful Dorsey develops & can give him a pass on coming up short his 1st year as OC.

 

[Bill from NYC]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

He's just a very good HC and things finally came together for him and he has the league's best QB.   I think McD is a very good HC as well.

Do you think that he has too much say in terms of personnel in terms of the draft, etc.?

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

I wonder how some of this lot would have suffered:

Coach Henry 'Hank' Bullough 

[akcash]

Is there a world where we keep the playbook that Daboll brought here and always have an OC on deck, but Josh calls the plays? Maybe this could solve our revolving door play-caller issue?

[Wayne Arnold]

McDermott has shown aggressiveness and trust in the offense in his game management decisions more often than not. He's not Dick Jauron or Doug Marrone.

 

Bills lost to the Bengals because the players (other than Diggs) had no emotion that day. Let's not make it bigger than it is.

[schoolhouserock]

Coach McD is currently ranked 52nd among NFL head coaches in number of playoff wins all time.

 

Coach McD is currently ranked 65th all time in playoff win percentage.
 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/

 

Let’s say the Bills have a great year next year and win it all. (3-0 in next season’s playoffs). That would put him top 31 in both categories - ahead of multiple hall of famers. The Bills and coach McD are literally one great season from such lofty heights. That’s what we have here, folks.

 

Making a change and expecting something better is ‘pie in the sky’ thinking.

Edited February 11, 2023 by schoolhouserock

[Shaw66]

I hear what people are saying about McDermott, Frazier, need for an offensive guy, etc., but I think that's taking too short a view.  We all tend to have a tendency to want the flavor of the month.   Right now there's a sense that offenses are taking over, and that's what people want, a sense that McDermott's style of D doesn't fit, all of that.   But that stuff comes and goes.   Innovation in the NFL is driven by defense.  The coaches who best can figure out how to stop offenses are the coaches with long-term success.  The defenses always catch up.   The teams that win Super Bowls play good defense throughout the late season and playoffs.  Defense is the long-theme in the NFL. 

 

McDermott has one of the top defenses in the league.  It's tenacious, and it succeeds by limiting the yards and points it gives up.  If you have that every season, then you're always in the mix. 

 

If you're an offensive coach, then you're success is almost by definition to a period in time.   You succeed on offense by figuring out how to beat the best defenses.  You need be creative, come up with something new, and if you do that - great, that's to your credit, but now the defense is changing and you have to be creative again, and again.   It's very difficult to stay on top.   It's part of Reid's success, that once he got the right QB, he was smart enough to ride through changes in offensive strategy. 

 

I don't have a problem, at all, being in the playoffs year after year, waiting for the offense to come together, or the injuries to fall right, or whatever.  Steelers had a defensive dynasty, always try build the right offense at the right time.   I'll take that.