Franchise in trouble- Josh Allen has regressed

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

4 hours ago, TheFunPolice said:

Something is off. Either Dorsey is telling Allen to throw to the wide open guys underneath and he isn't, or he isn't seeing them, or he feels so much pressure to make plays that he throws bombs on 3rd and 2 and we punt instead of moving the chains. 

 

Some say "but that stats!" This year's offense was boom or bust. Some days Allen hit the long balls and ended up with close to 400 yards. Other days when they weren't there it was 150 yards. 

 

Dorsey/Allen together seem to run an offense that's 1, 3, 0, 0, 1, 0, 45, 30, 0, 1, 3, 65, 0, 1, 2, yards

 

We need more consistency to beat the good teams in the playoffs. 

 

We all love Allen, but I worry that he is not listening to the coaches, because I cannot believe for a second that Dorsey or someone on the staff isn't pointing out the wide open guys underneath that he needs to throw to when they review film or even during games on the tablet. 

 

Maybe his buddy OC needs to get fired to send  Josh a message. You haven't figured it all out, and if you want to win you need to listen to us. 

 

Maybe he needs a tough coach who will speak truth. You got your buddy fired because you would not listen. BTW you haven't won jack squat in this league. You haven't even been to a Super Bowl. 

 

Holmgren was a freaking taskmaster with Favre. Maybe Allen needs a coach like that who will get on him when he decides to tune out the coaches. 

 

So what's the common denominator in your post?  It's coaching.  If Allen isn't listening it's on the coaches; if we are calling bombs on 3rd and 1 - it's coaching, if you're not calling bombs on 2nd and 1 - it's coaching.  If have a big lead and you're not grinding clock with the short game - it's coaching, if you're not in the QBs face or talking to him on the bench to pull his head out - it's coaching; if you're OC has no creativity and not using his RBs - it's coaching.  

[3rdand12]

17 hours ago, Dr.Sack said:

Dorsey is 42. We have Sean McVay becoming a HC at age 30 and winning a SB by age 36. Is Dorsey capable of catching up to these younger whipper snappers? 

Exp vs age perhaps  ?

[dakrider]

Could Josh Allen play in the 49ers system?  I don't think he would do well in that system and would be too constrained.  But I would like to see the Bills borrow some aspects of that for next year and force Josh to use the players around him more.  Bills absolutely have to improve their running game and make these guys execute better. They will not be successful next year if they cannot do that. 
One thing would be great if Bills OC would put more emphasis on just getting first downs. Make most pass plays 5-15 yards or so and just work on that primarily for the first few games and then open it up more as the season goes.  And along with that also work on getting rid of the ball quicker. When guys aren't open then run or throw it away instead of trying to force something. The biggest mistakes I've seen this year is Josh primarily trying to force plays instead of just throwing it away or taking the short gain and kicking a FG or punting.  

[TheFunPolice]

27 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

 

So what's the common denominator in your post?  It's coaching.  If Allen isn't listening it's on the coaches; if we are calling bombs on 3rd and 1 - it's coaching, if you're not calling bombs on 2nd and 1 - it's coaching.  If have a big lead and you're not grinding clock with the short game - it's coaching, if you're not in the QBs face or talking to him on the bench to pull his head out - it's coaching; if you're OC has no creativity and not using his RBs - it's coaching.  

 

exactly.

 

OC and/or HC needs to be the boss

 

Belichick treated Brady like he was a 7th round rookie even after multiple SB because that's what you need to do to win. Focus. Intensity. More focus. and even more focus. And then some more focus. 

 

After that, focus. 

 

Brady hated it but he has a handful of SB rings so now he can go have his fun. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by TheFunPolice

[BearNorth]

On 1/22/2023 at 6:35 PM, Billsfanatic8989 said:

Burrow has an embarrassment of riches on offense. I love Diggs. But Chase is definitely better. Mixon can be a factor. They get the ball out quick. 

 

Burrow played better lately. But the 2 and 3 spots are always juggling. Mahomes is the clear # 1.

 

 

 

But how much of Mahomes being #1 is Andy Reid. 

 

If JA17 played for Reid, would he be the equal of Mahomes?

 

Also Kelce is a cheat code for Mahomes, likely the GOAT tight end.

 

Mahomes has an O-line that is light years better than Buffalo's 

 

 

[John from Riverside]

Josh Allen has not regressed
Teams are game planning for the fact that we only win games because of him

Time for the bills to adapt to that

7 hours ago, BearNorth said:

But how much of Mahomes being #1 is Andy Reid. 

 

If JA17 played for Reid, would he be the equal of Mahomes?

 

Also Kelce is a cheat code for Mahomes, likely the GOAT tight end.

 

Mahomes has an O-line that is light years better than Buffalo's 

 

 

I would also add the Pacheco is probably better than anything the bills have
 

He’s fast and a punishing running back

[Buffalo Barbarian]

NO, his line is garbage, the play designs suck and he had an throwing arm which was quite the same as it was before

 

 

[Seventeen]

11 hours ago, BearNorth said:

But how much of Mahomes being #1 is Andy Reid. 

 

If JA17 played for Reid, would he be the equal of Mahomes?

 

Also Kelce is a cheat code for Mahomes, likely the GOAT tight end.

 

Mahomes has an O-line that is light years better than Buffalo's 

 

 

 

Josh would be NFL MVP if it was solely determined by which player means the most to his own team. 

[billybob71]

This thread is ridiculous. JA had a below average OL, weapons, a first time OC, and little to no run game.  A few more years of the Bills providing this low level of support and we will be watching JA "regress" at a Pro Bowl level on another team!! And Bills mafia will be back in QB purgatory reminiscing about the  good old days when we had a top QB

[Ga boy]

19 hours ago, dakrider said:

Could Josh Allen play in the 49ers system?  I don't think he would do well in that system and would be too constrained.  But I would like to see the Bills borrow some aspects of that for next year and force Josh to use the players around him more.  Bills absolutely have to improve their running game and make these guys execute better. They will not be successful next year if they cannot do that. 
One thing would be great if Bills OC would put more emphasis on just getting first downs. Make most pass plays 5-15 yards or so and just work on that primarily for the first few games and then open it up more as the season goes.  And along with that also work on getting rid of the ball quicker. When guys aren't open then run or throw it away instead of trying to force something. The biggest mistakes I've seen this year is Josh primarily trying to force plays instead of just throwing it away or taking the short gain and kicking a FG or punting.  

A short game passing and running would force secondary to move up, and then drop a bomb on em.  Also, a short, quick passing scheme would compensate for weak pass protection. 

On 1/26/2023 at 6:30 AM, Xwnyer said:

They drafted Cook and traded for Haines yet refused to figure out how to utilize their skills in this offense.  Total disregard for the running game to take pressure off. Coaching is the problem unless the QB is overriding the play calls.  Plus we became way to predictable I would see Davis come in motion and stop near the end of the line and knew it was a run play.  If average football viewers can see what’s coming I am sure DCs and players saw the same on film.  All year folks felt Dorsey was not showing his hand however what we saw is he had a pair of 2’s and nothing else 

Didn’t the sub-pro O line prevent creativity since JA17 was running for his life??

[Don Otreply]

   This past seasons end results falls squarely on the four guy’s shoulders, BB, SM, LF, and KD. Their individual decisions at different points from preseason onward have caused the team to fail yet again at basically the same point in the post season that they have during their tenure in Buffalo.
 

   The question now is, will they learn from their mistakes. I hope so, but I am also not holding my breath, odds are the same O-line with minor changes shows up again, and the DC will do all the same things, leading to yet another “same result” season.  The team will be good, but won’t have high odds of winning a championship. 

[Talley56]

If it helps, here's a little reminder that might make us feel better about about Allen and this team's future.

 

I'm not saying Allen is as good as Peyton Manning but Manning was drafted exactly 20 years before Allen (Manning: 1998 Allen: 2018).  So, where was Peyton this time 20 years ago?  He was coming off of this bludgeoning: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200301040nyj.htm.  That Jets team was good but not on the level of this year's Bengals IMO.    Peyton threw 19 INTs that year (5 more than Allen this year) and Peyton still hadn't even won a playoff game yet.  I think we are on pace for a better future with Allen than it may seem like right now.  I'm hopeful.

[Kaenon]

On 1/22/2023 at 6:27 PM, RoscoeParrish said:

We were dominated in all 3 phases today, but this season and franchise has always been about Josh Allen being an elite QB and taking us to the next level. 
 

It is safe to say he regressed this year and today was the nail in the coffin.
 

Sure you can blame the OC, but 10 points at home in a playoff game falls on the QBs shoulders in a MAJOR capacity. 
 

If this board voted on Cinci having 27 points before kickoff, most would have taken it. 
 

I am afraid Allen’s career will be an above average quarterback who shuffles between signs of greatness, signs of mediocrity, and signs of someone with zero offers out of high school. 
 

He is NOT even in the league of Mahomes and Burrow and today solidified that. 
 

He had as many boneheaded turnovers this year as his rookie season.  He led the league in fumbles and INTs.  He scored 10 points at home in a playoff game when he was preseason MVP and this team was preseason Super Bowl favorites. 
 

He regressed. 

Can we report for this post? Haha.

Josh is an MVP top 5 finalist.

[harmonkillebrew]

On 1/26/2023 at 10:02 AM, TheFunPolice said:

Something is off. Either Dorsey is telling Allen to throw to the wide open guys underneath and he isn't, or he isn't seeing them, or he feels so much pressure to make plays that he throws bombs on 3rd and 2 and we punt instead of moving the chains. 

 

Some say "but that stats!" This year's offense was boom or bust. Some days Allen hit the long balls and ended up with close to 400 yards. Other days when they weren't there it was 150 yards. 

 

Dorsey/Allen together seem to run an offense that's 1, 3, 0, 0, 1, 0, 45, 30, 0, 1, 3, 65, 0, 1, 2, yards

 

We need more consistency to beat the good teams in the playoffs. 

 

We all love Allen, but I worry that he is not listening to the coaches, because I cannot believe for a second that Dorsey or someone on the staff isn't pointing out the wide open guys underneath that he needs to throw to when they review film or even during games on the tablet. 

 

Maybe his buddy OC needs to get fired to send  Josh a message. You haven't figured it all out, and if you want to win you need to listen to us. 

 

Maybe he needs a tough coach who will speak truth. You got your buddy fired because you would not listen. BTW you haven't won jack squat in this league. You haven't even been to a Super Bowl. 

 

Holmgren was a freaking taskmaster with Favre. Maybe Allen needs a coach like that who will get on him when he decides to tune out the coaches. 

This has been the running theory of Allen's turnover problem this year.  Dorsey doesn't reign him in like Daboll did. 

 

Add in, a rough Oline and two WRs not ready for starting roles and you've got the formula for a regression.

 

Dorsey needs to alter his approach and keep Allen calm and hitting shorter plays. We also need to give Allen underneath weapons that he trusts. 

[Trogdor]

11 hours ago, billybob71 said:

This thread is ridiculous. JA had a below average OL, weapons, a first time OC, and little to no run game.  A few more years of the Bills providing this low level of support and we will be watching JA "regress" at a Pro Bowl level on another team!! And Bills mafia will be back in QB purgatory reminiscing about the  good old days when we had a top QB

All of those problems can exist and he can still have regressed. Idk how many screenshots and videos you need to see of him just overlooking open underneath stuff to push it deep. That was a problem he had in college and one I thought he had kicked. 

[Big C]

I really think a lot of the reason we were so aggressive with downfield passing is because of his elbow. He clearly wasn’t the same in the short-intermediate range but he could still launch it because it was pure arm strength. I don’t think enough is said about it. 

[CincyBillsFan]

On 1/26/2023 at 2:39 PM, dakrider said:

Could Josh Allen play in the 49ers system?  I don't think he would do well in that system and would be too constrained.  But I would like to see the Bills borrow some aspects of that for next year and force Josh to use the players around him more.  Bills absolutely have to improve their running game and make these guys execute better. They will not be successful next year if they cannot do that. 
One thing would be great if Bills OC would put more emphasis on just getting first downs. Make most pass plays 5-15 yards or so and just work on that primarily for the first few games and then open it up more as the season goes.  And along with that also work on getting rid of the ball quicker. When guys aren't open then run or throw it away instead of trying to force something. The biggest mistakes I've seen this year is Josh primarily trying to force plays instead of just throwing it away or taking the short gain and kicking a FG or punting.  

Allen would shine and dominate the NFL in the 49's system.  It would allow Shanahan to launch his offense into the stratosphere.  Why do you think the 49's drafted Trey Lance? It was an attempt to have their own version of Allen. 

[CincyBillsFan]

On 1/26/2023 at 10:02 AM, TheFunPolice said:

Something is off. Either Dorsey is telling Allen to throw to the wide open guys underneath and he isn't, or he isn't seeing them, or he feels so much pressure to make plays that he throws bombs on 3rd and 2 and we punt instead of moving the chains. 

 

Some say "but that stats!" This year's offense was boom or bust. Some days Allen hit the long balls and ended up with close to 400 yards. Other days when they weren't there it was 150 yards. 

 

Dorsey/Allen together seem to run an offense that's 1, 3, 0, 0, 1, 0, 45, 30, 0, 1, 3, 65, 0, 1, 2, yards

 

We need more consistency to beat the good teams in the playoffs. 

 

We all love Allen, but I worry that he is not listening to the coaches, because I cannot believe for a second that Dorsey or someone on the staff isn't pointing out the wide open guys underneath that he needs to throw to when they review film or even during games on the tablet. 

 

Maybe his buddy OC needs to get fired to send  Josh a message. You haven't figured it all out, and if you want to win you need to listen to us. 

 

Maybe he needs a tough coach who will speak truth. You got your buddy fired because you would not listen. BTW you haven't won jack squat in this league. You haven't even been to a Super Bowl. 

 

Holmgren was a freaking taskmaster with Favre. Maybe Allen needs a coach like that who will get on him when he decides to tune out the coaches. 

I challenge the notion that there were all these wide open guys running underneath the deep patterns.  Allen threw a lot of passes to the "underneath" receivers and I saw precious little YAC after the catch and on more then one occasion these receivers screwed up the pattern or the ball bounced off their hands leading to INT's.

 

The first two plays against the Bengal's were short passes into the flat that gained about 5 yards total. Our skill players didn't break a tackle or make a guy miss which meant that we were in 3rd and 5. IMO there is a MYTH that there are all these open short throws to be made.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[papazoid]

Josh was the #2 ranked QB for QBR in 2022....he is ELITE, played thru nerve damage to his throwing arm and is the least of our problems.

 

Diggs is Elite

 

Dawkins and Knox are mediocre

 

after that, every single player on offense is below average. you'd never miss them.

 

we need a WR1a , and 2 OL

[CincyBillsFan]

2 minutes ago, papazoid said:

Josh was the #2 ranked QB for QBR in 2022....he is ELITE, played thru nerve damage to his throwing arm and is the least of our problems.

 

Diggs is Elite

 

Dawkins and Knox are mediocre

 

after that, every single player on offense is below average. you'd never miss them.

 

we need a WR1a , and 2 OL

And for what it's worth Allen was ranked #1 by PFF.  And he did this surrounded largely by below average talent on offense.  So why are some Bills fans insisting that the problem is Allen not throwing to "wide open" guys underneath?

 

 

[Orlando Tim]

On 1/22/2023 at 6:27 PM, RoscoeParrish said:

We were dominated in all 3 phases today, but this season and franchise has always been about Josh Allen being an elite QB and taking us to the next level. 
 

It is safe to say he regressed this year and today was the nail in the coffin.
 

Sure you can blame the OC, but 10 points at home in a playoff game falls on the QBs shoulders in a MAJOR capacity. 
 

If this board voted on Cinci having 27 points before kickoff, most would have taken it. 
 

I am afraid Allen’s career will be an above average quarterback who shuffles between signs of greatness, signs of mediocrity, and signs of someone with zero offers out of high school. 
 

He is NOT even in the league of Mahomes and Burrow and today solidified that. 
 

He had as many boneheaded turnovers this year as his rookie season.  He led the league in fumbles and INTs.  He scored 10 points at home in a playoff game when he was preseason MVP and this team was preseason Super Bowl favorites. 
 

He regressed. 

Probably already said but he is an MVP finalist this year, your standard might be a little absurd. 

[mead107]

Another dumb  thread.  

[hemma]

Troll thread

[BillsShredder83]

On 1/22/2023 at 6:27 PM, RoscoeParrish said:

We were dominated in all 3 phases today, but this season and franchise has always been about Josh Allen being an elite QB and taking us to the next level. 
 

It is safe to say he regressed this year and today was the nail in the coffin.
 

Sure you can blame the OC, but 10 points at home in a playoff game falls on the QBs shoulders in a MAJOR capacity. 
 

If this board voted on Cinci having 27 points before kickoff, most would have taken it. 
 

I am afraid Allen’s career will be an above average quarterback who shuffles between signs of greatness, signs of mediocrity, and signs of someone with zero offers out of high school. 
 

He is NOT even in the league of Mahomes and Burrow and today solidified that. 
 

He had as many boneheaded turnovers this year as his rookie season.  He led the league in fumbles and INTs.  He scored 10 points at home in a playoff game when he was preseason MVP and this team was preseason Super Bowl favorites. 
 

He regressed. 

thank you for bringing TBD together in a way ive never seen. theres about 60 ppl who disagree. i stopped after 3 sentences. YOU regressed

[Old Coot]

I have noticed that Josh takes his time deciding to whom to throw.

 

Without access to the all-22 film I can't tell whether he's takes his time processing what the secondary is doing or whether it's his receivers are not getting open quickly or their routes are longer.

 

Any thoughts?

 

The NextGen website ranks John number 27 on release time at 2.89 secs. For comparison Joe Burrow is 2.55 and Mahomes is also 2.89, (likely the result of his scrambling)

[billybob71]

15 hours ago, Trogdor said:

All of those problems can exist and he can still have regressed. Idk how many screenshots and videos you need to see of him just overlooking open underneath stuff to push it deep. That was a problem he had in college and one I thought he had kicked. 

screenshots lol, all you armchair qbs, and you just made my point for me. if their was any "regression" it was due to the multiple problems. fix some of those and the "regression" goes away and JA goes from good to dominant. This thread is irrelevant

[In Summary]

Josh may really like Dorsey, but Daboll was his svengali. 

[Trogdor]

4 hours ago, billybob71 said:

screenshots lol, all you armchair qbs, and you just made my point for me. if their was any "regression" it was due to the multiple problems. fix some of those and the "regression" goes away and JA goes from good to dominant. This thread is irrelevant

So you need a top offensive line, multiple targets, and a different coaching staff for Josh to throw to the underneath and open receiver? If that's the case I don't ever want to hear about him being better than Mahomes or Burrow who will hit what's given. I'm not out on Allen, I really like him, but jesus the excuses when he plays poorly. 

[billybob71]

51 minutes ago, Trogdor said:

So you need a top offensive line, multiple targets, and a different coaching staff for Josh to throw to the underneath and open receiver? If that's the case I don't ever want to hear about him being better than Mahomes or Burrow who will hit what's given. I'm not out on Allen, I really like him, but jesus the excuses when he plays poorly. 

No just an average line, 1 more decent receiver and a better OC. Mahomes and Burrow both have what you just stated why can't JA. And without him this year the Bills win 8 games at most. And so what he missed a few check downs here and there big deal, again without him Bills aren't even in a playoff game to begin with.

Edited January 28, 2023 by billybob71

[Gunsgoodtime]

20 hours ago, papazoid said:

Josh was the #2 ranked QB for QBR in 2022....he is ELITE, played thru nerve damage to his throwing arm and is the least of our problems.

 

Diggs is Elite

 

Dawkins and Knox are mediocre

 

after that, every single player on offense is below average. you'd never miss them.

 

we need a WR1a , and 2 OL

I agree.  Personally I would add Morse to that list too.  Also need a slot Wr.  Shakir is just high hopes right now just like Mckenzie and Davis were this year

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, Trogdor said:

So you need a top offensive line, multiple targets, and a different coaching staff for Josh to throw to the underneath and open receiver? If that's the case I don't ever want to hear about him being better than Mahomes or Burrow who will hit what's given. I'm not out on Allen, I really like him, but jesus the excuses when he plays poorly. 

So who among the Bills RB's/WR's/TE's not named Diggs starts for KC or Cincinnati?  And without doubt the Bills had the worst O line among the divisional playoff participants.

 

It's not making excuses to point out the freaking obvious that the Bills have grossly under equipped their offense. 

 

 

 

[L Ron Burgundy]

Offensive line.

[GunnerBill]

25 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

So who among the Bills RB's/WR's/TE's not named Diggs starts for KC or Cincinnati?  And without doubt the Bills had the worst O line among the divisional playoff participants.

 

It's not making excuses to point out the freaking obvious that the Bills have grossly under equipped their offense. 

 

 

Knox,Morse and Dawkins start for Cincy. I don't see a single Bills offensive player except Diggs who starts for KC. 

[Billever76]

Put any qb in the league behind this line with our weapons not named diggs and have them go through 3 different OCs and one of the OCs being a rookie play caller and I would like to see ANYONE play better

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Knox,Morse and Dawkins start for Cincy. I don't see a single Bills offensive player except Diggs who starts for KC. 

I don't think knox starts over cinci TE tbh

[CincyBillsFan]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Knox,Morse and Dawkins start for Cincy. I don't see a single Bills offensive player except Diggs who starts for KC. 

I asked among TE/WR/RB.  And IMO Knox would not start over the Bengals TE and he sure as hell wouldn't start over the Chiefs TE.  Maybe Dawkins would get the start on Cincy but I don't think Morse beats out the Bengal's center.

 

 

[John from Riverside]

I mean this thread generated a lot of clicks in a lot of discussion, but the initial thought process of it is just awful
 

Josh Allen has not regressed

[GunnerBill]

7 hours ago, Billever76 said:

I don't think knox starts over cinci TE tbh

 

I don't see any basis for believing Hurst would start over Knox. Knox has more prouction in the passing game and is a way better blocker. He has as many touchdowns in the past two seasons as Hurst has for a career. 

[GunnerBill]

5 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

I asked among TE/WR/RB.  And IMO Knox would not start over the Bengals TE and he sure as hell wouldn't start over the Chiefs TE.  Maybe Dawkins would get the start on Cincy but I don't think Morse beats out the Bengal's center.

 

 

Knox is better than Hurst. I don't see any evidence to support the contrary view. It isn't based on blocking. Or receiving game production. Or big play ability. Or touchdowns.

 

Of course he doesn't start on KC, nobody was claiming that. Morse doesn't beat out Ted Karras? Come on that is ridiculous. 

 

Diggs, Knox, Dawkins and Morse all start for the Bengals. And I am not arguing Dawkins and Morse are great btw. It is just that Cincy's oline is still a weakness as well.

 

The strength of the Bengals offense is their three wide receivers. They have an elite #1 a true #1B and a #2 level guy in the slot. Even with the massive overhaul in the offseason their OL was not great (probably better than the Bills it just so happens that they are weaker at the spots the Bills two best lineman play - LT and C), Joe Mixon hasn't averaged more than 4.1 yards a carry in the last 4 seasons and Hurst is a decent starting tight end but no more than that.

 

7 hours ago, Billever76 said:

Put any qb in the league behind this line with our weapons not named diggs and have them go through 3 different OCs and one of the OCs being a rookie play caller and I would like to see ANYONE play better

 

Three? Josh has only had two OCs. Daboll and Dorsey. 

Edited January 29, 2023 by GunnerBill

[Thurman#1]

On 1/23/2023 at 8:27 AM, RoscoeParrish said:

 

He regressed. 

 

 

One day isn't regression. It's having a bad day.

 

The whole team did, certainly including Allen.

 

[Nihilarian]

On 1/22/2023 at 6:29 PM, QLBillsFan said:

This loss has very little to do with Josh Allen, But  everything to do with being out schemed and dominated on both sides of the line ! 

This!

 

Look at Tom Brady (you know, the goat!) this season with no run game and a bad O line...look familiar?  Look at Josh Allen last season when the line played so much better and in fact was so good that Beane kept a lot of those line players. Now, they regressed!

 

Josh was the leading rusher (again) in that game and without his yards the Buffalo RBs had only 11 carries for 38 yards! Total 19 rushes for 64 yards. Also, Josh was under heavy pass rush pressure all game long. 

 

Go back to last years playoff run where the O line played much better and the Bills actually had a run game, Josh was basically unstoppable. 

 

Buffalo needs to rebuild that O line above all else! JMHO