balln Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 6 hours ago, RocCityRoller said: Thanks. I was really down on Jackson since the Minny game. I trust ProFootball Reference more than PFF and even Football Outsiders so I wanted to look up the advanced defensive stats on the DB trio, and T Johnson too. I was surprised how, despite 2-3 clear bad games Dane Jackson still was the best of the 3 CBs. It also showed what many thought, that Benford was having a better season than Elam. Elam is more a press cover guy, changing to a heavier zone scheme is not going to be easy. He also was more gifted athletically or on par with a lot of the WRs he faced in college. Won't be the case in the NFL. That said he has the traits and mentality to improve. This season has been trial by fire for the young CBs and I think overall they did enough to help bridge the gap. I know many think Benford will be moved to S. Maybe the right play would be to keep Benford at CB and move Elam to S or Big Nickel (Siran Neal position) where his brand of more physical DB play could be better utilized? He is basically the same size as Poyer and Hyde. If I recall correctly Hyde was available because Green Bay knew he was a good DB, but couldn't figure out how to utilize him. He was a utility DB for GB. McDermott and Frazier knew he was a S and has become a difference maker with their tutelage. Thought elam wasn’t a good tackler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DapperCam Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 I think Elam isn’t a great tackler, and the Bills knew the Pats were going to test that. This turned out to be correct, Pats players even said in postgame that the goal was to force Bills to tackle the Pats skill players. I think it was just a matchup thing. If we were playing a team with speed at receiver I bet he’d be out there. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billz4ever Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 After watching Rhodes mildly jog on the Jones TD, I was fuming. Little to no effort from him on that play. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 (edited) 22 minutes ago, DapperCam said: I think Elam isn’t a great tackler, and the Bills knew the Pats were going to test that. This turned out to be correct, Pats players even said in postgame that the goal was to force Bills to tackle the Pats skill players. I think it was just a matchup thing. If we were playing a team with speed at receiver I bet he’d be out there. Pretty much...Bills will do whatever is needed to find any edge they can in games, even if it means deactivating a 1st round pick for a game. Edited December 2, 2022 by Big Turk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayboy54 Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 Maybe resting the ankle for the stretch run also went into this decision. 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 29 minutes ago, clayboy54 said: Maybe resting the ankle for the stretch run also went into this decision. I think that was it more than anything. Leslie Frazier had mentioned something earlier in the week about him managing the pain. But its "spicier" to say and think he got "benched" 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fischer Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 We don't know the reason Elam didn't play. The Bills CANNOT say it's due to injury because they never gave him a designation. Let's see what happens next week before declaring Elam a bust. My guess is he get 20-25% of the snaps. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 1 hour ago, Billz4ever said: After watching Rhodes mildly jog on the Jones TD, I was fuming. Little to no effort from him on that play. I dunno if you've ever chased someone who is clearly faster than you... but... he can't catch him. 25 minutes ago, Max Fischer said: We don't know the reason Elam didn't play. The Bills CANNOT say it's due to injury because they never gave him a designation. Let's see what happens next week before declaring Elam a bust. My guess is he get 20-25% of the snaps. Is he healthy enough to play and practice? Yes. Is he in pain and/or less effective? Probably also yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 1 hour ago, Beck Water said: People love to get all mystery/conspiracy minded but I don't think that was it. I think it was a matchup decision based on wanting to play nickle and zone against a run-heavy offense with a lot of passes to the RB and wanting to throw a lot of different "looks" at Jones in a hostile environment. Elam needs to progress as a zone corner still and as a sure tackler of a tank like Stevenson. No need to be conspiratorial to understand that this was almost certainly a disciplinary measure, even with the face-saving comment from McDermott. The only other option is that the coaches thought that Elam was the Bills 7th best option at CB in a zone-heavy game plan run against a limited QB and pedestrian WR corps. That would be a considerably worse situation. There’s also no need to make any more out of it than that. A rookie messed up, the coaches held him accountable (without making what happened public), he hopefully has learned his lesson and we all move on. It’s not that big a deal unless it continues to happen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SectionC3 Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 3 hours ago, RocCityRoller said: Hey Gunner, I usually agree with you. But 'Rhodes is washed', and 'Singletary has stone hands' makes me wonder if your Sleep Number mattress is working for you! I replied to your comment about Singletary in the other thread. As for CBs: Elam is giving up a 70% completion percentage against. That is bad. By any account that is bad. Jackson has drawn/ mirrored the #1 WR most of the season due to injuries and gave up 56%, not great, but understandable. That includes guys like Jefferson vs MIN. As for Rhodes, yes he is 32. Yes he regressed a lot in past years. He also played in a Frazier defense in the past. I'm waiting to see Rhodes stats vs New England, because he was a shut down CB vs. Detroit. I only have his 1 game vs Detroit to work with. He played 25 snaps. His receiver was targeted once. 1 time in 25 snaps (4% targeted) The pass allowed went for 5 yards. It's a tiny sample, but he wasn't 'washed'. I'll take 4% target against and 5 yds allowed by my CB any day. ProFootball Reference is updating stats, so let's look at targets against snaps as another qualifier when the data is complete. If QBs are making throws against, that means they think a WR is open or could catch a pass vs a DB. I bet the stats do not agree with you, and much of the board TBH. I am willing to bet QBs do not like throwing against Benford or Rhodes. They were too busy destroying Dane Jackson to waste time throwing at Rhodes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billz4ever Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 56 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said: I dunno if you've ever chased someone who is clearly faster than you... but... he can't catch him. Is he healthy enough to play and practice? Yes. Is he in pain and/or less effective? Probably also yes. He never made an effort even when he was close to him. Let's not make excuses for a lack of hustle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Tim Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 The game plan needed smarter not faster players- except the one TD- and Elam is not there yet. I am not worried since when on the field he has been solid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Sack Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 Dane Jackson is a better tackler, while Elam is better in man coverage when we are forced to blitz to create pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 6 minutes ago, Orlando Tim said: The game plan needed smarter not faster players- except the one TD- and Elam is not there yet. I am not worried since when on the field he has been solid. Meanwhile McDuffy in KC Is absolutely locking people down. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goin Breakdown Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 18 hours ago, Einstein said: Joes tweet is all fine and dandy but the plan was for a CB (assumed). Given the rash of injuries at DB I'm not sure grabbing Elam was "wrong" in hindsight. He may still have a very good career. He's a rookie. That being said Pickins on this team would've been nice for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddo Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 As Elam is pretty focused on improving, a 'disciplinary' reason seems a stretch, unless it's for being stupidly late for some reason. Game plan decision would be more likely, and if he's nursing a knock (ankle), then leaving him out, could be a plus point on the balance scales. As someone else has pointed out, he's not been on the injury report, so he's pretty much got to count as a 'healthy scratch'. Very likely he could have played if needed/necessary, but it was probably deemed to be better for him long term, if he didn't have to. Let's not forget also, we are getting to the 'rookie wall' period, and getting him the extra rest - (especially with the next game not for 10 days) may well play into countering that as well. It might also be that they are looking to have him as fully fit as possible, for when he opposition has more speed on the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 22 hours ago, BarleyNY said: No need to be conspiratorial to understand that this was almost certainly a disciplinary measure, even with the face-saving comment from McDermott. The only other option is that the coaches thought that Elam was the Bills 7th best option at CB in a zone-heavy game plan run against a limited QB and pedestrian WR corps. That would be a considerably worse situation. There’s also no need to make any more out of it than that. A rookie messed up, the coaches held him accountable (without making what happened public), he hopefully has learned his lesson and we all move on. It’s not that big a deal unless it continues to happen. In current physical shape with a sore ankle he could very well be deemed the 7th best option. And that is not a problem at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southern_Bills Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 On 12/2/2022 at 8:07 AM, Billz4ever said: After watching Rhodes mildly jog on the Jones TD, I was fuming. Little to no effort from him on that play. I can understand, but Rhodes did the smart thing and saved his gas for another play. He isn't running Jones down lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 12 hours ago, Goin Breakdown said: Joes tweet is all fine and dandy but the plan was for a CB (assumed). Given the rash of injuries at DB I'm not sure grabbing Elam was "wrong" in hindsight. He may still have a very good career. He's a rookie. That being said Pickins on this team would've been nice for sure. If I were to guess, the Bills would trade Elam for a couple of those names right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punching Bag Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 On 12/2/2022 at 2:23 AM, Big Turk said: And I'm sure you probably never played sports before. I am sure he is a member in good standing in North American Tiddlywinks Association. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 5 minutes ago, Limeaid said: I am sure he is a member in good standing in North American Tiddlywinks Association. Do they hand out participation trophies there for 11th place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frostbitmic Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 Before the game on NFL Network, Steve Smith Sr said something about he may have hit the rookie wall. Being thrown in as a starter before being ready could cause some baggage as a rookie I suppose. We'll likely never know the reasoning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 2 hours ago, Southern_Bills said: I can understand, but Rhodes did the smart thing and saved his gas for another play. He isn't running Jones down lol And that's the problem for me. We don't have speed in the backfield. If we played Lee Smith he would burn our DB's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCBills Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 30 minutes ago, frostbitmic said: Before the game on NFL Network, Steve Smith Sr said something about he may have hit the rookie wall. Being thrown in as a starter before being ready could cause some baggage as a rookie I suppose. We'll likely never know the reasoning. Rookie wall can be a real thing, but we seem to have way more excuses as to why rookies can’t play than any team I can ever remember. Big reason for drafting premium positions early is because of the rookie contract. Bills seems content only ever getting 2-3 years out of it. Not normal. Is what it is, but coaching staff better be right on these decisions because this is the type of stuff that is worth being critical over if they fall short again. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 2 hours ago, Einstein said: If I were to guess, the Bills would trade Elam for a couple of those names right now. You mean after getting tree white back onto the field 3/4 end of the season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RochesterLifer Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 4 minutes ago, SCBills said: Rookie wall can be a real thing, but we seem to have way more excuses as to why rookies can’t play than any team I can ever remember. Big reason for drafting premium positions early is because of the rookie contract. Bills seems content only ever getting 2-3 years out of it. Not normal. Is what it is, but coaching staff better be right on these decisions because this is the type of stuff that is worth being critical over if they fall short again. Oh yes, and our four year run of success certainly reflects these never-ending decision making failures. 🙄 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 12 minutes ago, boyst said: And that's the problem for me. We don't have speed in the backfield. If we played Lee Smith he would burn our DB's. Very curious how they scheme up to defend Miami in two weeks. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 14 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: You mean after getting tree white back onto the field 3/4 end of the season? You don't draft a player to be a 3/4 season replacement. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCBills Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 13 minutes ago, RochesterLifer said: Oh yes, and our four year run of success certainly reflects these never-ending decision making failures. 🙄 McDermott is a very good coach. For the most part.. Great coaches get to the Super Bowl. Legendary coaches win it. Remains to be seen if he can make the jump. I hope he can because I really like him as a leader of men. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 On 12/2/2022 at 9:07 AM, Billz4ever said: After watching Rhodes mildly jog on the Jones TD, I was fuming. Little to no effort from him on that play. I don’t think he was jogging. I think he’s just old and slow. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 7 minutes ago, SCBills said: McDermott is a very good coach. For the most part.. Great coaches get to the Super Bowl. Legendary coaches win it. Not sure I agree with this entirely. Many Super Bowls come down to players executing and making plays/not making plays. I think that’s what wins playoff games and Super Bowls. I do think bad coaching can lose you a SB. Andy Reid in Philly is pretty good evidence of that— his game management was a huge contributing factor to that one Philly loss to NE. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billz4ever Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 9 minutes ago, Mango said: I don’t think he was jogging. I think he’s just old and slow. LMAO, possibly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCBills Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 5 minutes ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said: Not sure I agree with this entirely. Many Super Bowls come down to players executing and making plays/not making plays. I think that’s what wins playoff games and Super Bowls. I do think bad coaching can lose you a SB. Andy Reid in Philly is pretty good evidence of that— his game management was a huge contributing factor to that one Philly loss to NE. Depends on whether you think coaching plays a part in execution. Bills are the defending SB Champions, zero doubt in my mind, if 13 seconds doesn’t happen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarlinTheMagician Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 If Elam has hit the wall, or is not tackling well or using some poor technique, giving him two weeks to analyze and work on what he is doing wrong, or just giving him a mental break to get beyond the rookie wall, seems like a great idea. He seems like he is a very hard worker, so I doubt it is a big discipline issue. 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 43 minutes ago, boyst said: And that's the problem for me. We don't have speed in the backfield. If we played Lee Smith he would burn our DB's. All Hamlin had to do is make the tackle instead of running into a blocker in an almost comical way. Should have been at best a 2-3 yard gain. He has been much much better than he was in his first few games in terms of positioning and making plays when he is in space but that was a terrible look. 1 minute ago, MarlinTheMagician said: If Elam has hit the wall, or is not tackling well or using some poor technique, giving him two weeks to analyze and work on what he is doing wrong, or just giving him a mental break to get beyond the rookie wall, seems like a great idea. He seems like he is a very hard worker, so I doubt it is a big discipline issue. Players don't always progress in a linear way like they do in Madden Franchise mode. McD is doing what he feels is best for him as a player and as a person most likely. And obviously what he feels is best for the team IN THIS PARTICULAR GAME. Bills probably do more week to week matchup stuff in regards to who is inactive(when fully healthy) than any team in the NFL except maybe NE. People are reading way, way too much into this. It will have zero effect on how good Elam will become two or three years from now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarlinTheMagician Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 5 minutes ago, Big Turk said: All Hamlin had to do is make the tackle instead of running into a blocker in an almost comical way. Should have been at best a 2-3 yard gain. He has been much much better than he was in his first few games in terms of positioning and making plays when he is in space but that was a terrible look. Players don't always progress in a linear way like they do in Madden Franchise mode. McD is doing what he feels is best for him as a player and as a person most likely. And obviously what he feels is best for the team IN THIS PARTICULAR GAME. Bills probably do more week to week matchup stuff in regards to who is inactive(when fully healthy) than any team in the NFL except maybe NE. People are reading way, way too much into this. It will have zero effect on how good Elam will become two or three years from now. Agree, that was kind of my point. I think short-term decision that has zero reflection on long-term outcome. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 3 hours ago, Einstein said: You don't draft a player to be a 3/4 season replacement. I think you’re missing the point we were at a point during the season, where we literally didn’t even know if we were going to get tray back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 8 hours ago, Chaos said: In current physical shape with a sore ankle he could very well be deemed the 7th best option. And that is not a problem at all. Current physical shape? Weird that he was so hurt he couldn't play but was not listed on the injury report the week of the game - or the one the week prior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Otreply Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 On 12/2/2022 at 1:53 AM, Big Turk said: Nah...it's hilarious the overreactions to just about anything on this board. Any "the sky must be falling" incident that can be looked at with panic is automatically made worst case scenario. My God...I am really glad I don't have to work with a lot of the boards posters...couldn't imagine how things must go at work and how easily they would get flustered. There is group here that loves a drama, and will run with it at the drop of a hat, as the saying goes, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Water Posted December 4, 2022 Share Posted December 4, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, BarleyNY said: Current physical shape? Weird that he was so hurt he couldn't play but was not listed on the injury report the week of the game - or the one the week prior. Players who are deemed recovered enough from injury that they don't need treatment and aren't limited in practice, may not be 100% yet. It has also happened before that the Bills have made a player a "healthy scratch" during the season, then after the season have said that he needed more time to "get right" after an injury - maybe not treating the injury per se, but rehabbing around it. Harrison Phillips the year after his ACL would be one example. He was made a "healthy scratch" for 4 games in the middle of the season. After the season, Beane said he needed more time to rehab enough to play up to their standard, even though he was healthy enough to play. So it wouldn't be unheard of that the Bills said "OK, Elam's performance is not up to our standard, and not up to his play earlier in the season, and let's look at why" and decide that the injury might have something to do with it and he was gonna sit a week or two and heal. Or, it could have been a matchup decision, that the Bills decided to play 100% nickel against a strong running back, and they felt Rhodes would be the better defender against the run and/or more able to handle disguised coverage from zone, on the road (though the stadium soon became quiet enough IMO) Edited December 4, 2022 by Beck Water 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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