Dorsey Play Design Issues

[Donuts and Doritos]

Greg Cosell & Tasker have a real interesting take on problems with Dorsey's scheme / play calling (14:45 - 16:22). Expects WR's to win 1 on 1 every time, doesn't stack them w/ rubs & picks to scheme them open. Tasker points out there's no quick slants to get the ball out quickly & early to take pressure off the O-line & Josh. Watching the last 2 games it's noticeable (though he did call screens that just didn't work. & The quick 5yd pass to take the cushion yds was a nice adjustment yesterday).

 

My kids pointed out that when Davis motions back to the formation it's a run every time. It was a pretty predictable tell yesterday (I imagine the Lions saw it on film). 

 

The Offense struggles lately are reminiscent of last year, which they turned around. I get they're dealing with injuries, guys aren't executing & Dorsey is a 1st year OC. But I'm interested to see what tendency / issues they have that they can change scheme / play calling wise to get back on track. Thoughts?

 

 

 

[NickelCity]

Dorsey has shown less creativity than I'd hoped for, and the scheme certainly doesn't seem to make anything easy for Josh. 

 

It's always hard to tell as a fan, of course. 

Edited November 25, 2022 by NickelCity

[Solomon Grundy]

2 minutes ago, Donuts and Doritos said:

Greg Cosell & Tasker have a real interesting take on problems with Dorsey's scheme / play calling (14:45 - 16:22). Expects WR's to win 1 on 1 every time, doesn't stack them w/ rubs & picks to scheme them open. Tasker points out there's no quick slants to get the ball out quickly & early to take pressure off the O-line & Josh. Watching the last 2 games it's noticeable (though he did call screens that just didn't work. & The quick 5yd pass to take the cushion yds was a nice adjustment yesterday).

 

My kids pointed out that when Davis motions back to the formation it's a run every time. It was a pretty predictable tell yesterday (I imagine the Lions saw it on film). 

 

The Offense struggles lately are reminiscent of last year, which they turned around. I get they're dealing with injuries, guys aren't executing & Dorsey is a 1st year OC. But I'm interested to see what tendency / issues they have that they can change scheme / play calling wise to get back on track. Thoughts?

 

 

 

That's my exact thinking when I talk about creativity. When Davis goes into motion, fake the run and hit him with a quick out. You have to make the "tendencies" an advantage for the offense. Some middle screens to Knox. Roll Josh out and throw wheel routes the opposite way to the RBs (Cook/Hines), etc

[GunnerBill]

The lack of "stacks" in the scheme design to give Josh more single defender reads is sometbing I brought up 3 weeks ago. At the moment the passing concepts remind me a bit of the Greg Roman / Chris Palmer pass game design. It priortises giving each receiver "space" in which to work but it puts a greater emphasis on guys to win their 1v1 and Josh the find the guys that won as opposed to Daboll's design which had some of that but mixed it in with some clever designs to put a single DB in a bind and let Josh make a quick decision depending which way that defender jumps. 

 

Look he is a first year OC so he deserves some time to figure this stuff out a bit but we are not as creative on offense right now as we have been and as I would want us to be.

[Roundybout]

We’re also completely missing designed bootlegs to isolate someone like Davis or Knox for an easy 5-8 yards. Mac Jones did it all the time last night. 

[Dr.Sack]

No more of those RPO slant passes to WRs in redzone. The field is too bunched and too many teams have seen this film. Bare minimum perhaps actually do the run option to make defense respect it.

Edited November 25, 2022 by Dr.Sack

[Bangarang]

It’s mind boggling how some schmucks like us on the internet see these issues but NFL coaches spending 100 hours a week watching film can’t. 
 

I say it every week but there’s nothing creative about our offense. Every yard and TD can look so difficult. 
 

Even our scripted plays to start games are tough to watch. Nothing easy to get the offense and Josh into a rhythm. It looks too much like backyard football with guys running around and Josh hoping someone gets open. 
 

It’s really frustrating and I highly question whether Dorsey figures things out for next year.

[sven233]

Unfortunately, this is all true.  Early in the season it didn't matter as much because there was no film on Dorsey's offense.  Nobody knew what to expect from him.  But as the games have moved along, it has become very apparent that he runs a basic offense with little to no creativity.  There is no scheming guys open like there was with Daboll.  Daboll would constantly use motions, misdirection, and other eye candy to scheme certain guys open on a specific play.  There would be so much eye candy at times, it would cause defenses to take a couple extra beats to figure out what was going on, but that would be plenty to get guys open.  While it didn't always work, you could just see the creativity.  He would also build man beaters and zone beaters into just about every play so once he used his motions and got Allen to diagnose the overages pre-snap, he knew exactly where to go with the ball.

 

Dorsey is doing the opposite.  He's not running a ton of motion.  He's not helping Allen be able to see what the defense is in pre-snap.  He's lining guys up, hoping they win their match-ups, and letting Allen try and find the open guy as the play develops.  Too many times it's been easy for me to tell what play is being run just by the alignments before the snap.  Perfect example was the QB sneak at the end of the Vikings game.  They had been using the same motion with the same player and the same pacing for weeks prior to that play.  Everyone watching knew what was coming and the Vikings were able to guess right and blow it up.  If there was ever a time to try something different, that was it and he didn't have anything.  That's not how things should be done in today's NFL. 

 

Too many times Allen is waiting for the play to be run, not seeing anyone get open within the structure of the actual call and then going into scramble drills where he needs his WRs to win outside of the structure of the play call.  While Allen hasn't been his best at times this year, it's mainly because he's not getting any help.  In fact, he's still hiding a lot of the deficiencies this team actually has and that's scary.  Dorsey isn't doing Allen any favors right now and it is frustrating to watch.

[BBills_88]

I can't agree more.  You would think a former QB would have a better imagination & know how to scheme guys open when it comes to attacking defenses. 

 

However we still putting up close to 30 points a game. 

[BeastMaster]

I wanna see more back shoulder throws for Gabe to high point...especially in the end zone.

 

I haven't seen as much creativity as I was hoping to from Dorsey, but maybe that will develop over time

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

I thought it was all Josh’s fault!!!

 

 

Josh certainly has certainly contributed with questionable-poor decision making, however I believe a good portion of that is based on the subject of this thread.  

[Dan]

25 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

The lack of "stacks" in the scheme design to give Josh more single defender reads is sometbing I brought up 3 weeks ago. At the moment the passing concepts remind me a bit of the Greg Roman / Chris Palmer pass game design. It priortises giving each receiver "space" in which to work but it puts a greater emphasis on guys to win their 1v1 and Josh the find the guys that won as opposed to Daboll's design which had some of that but mixed it in with some clever designs to put a single DB in a bind and let Josh make a quick decision depending which way that defender jumps. 

 

Look he is a first year OC so he deserves some time to figure this stuff out a bit but we are not as creative on offense right now as we have been and as I would want us to be.

I agree.  Then offense lacks creativity and has predictable tendencies that opposing teams have figured out... hence more interceptions especially in the condensed spaced within the red zone. 
 

I don’t understand why a playbook doesn’t stay with the team and we have to let a new OC reinvent the wheel.   
 

[somnus00]

30 minutes ago, sven233 said:

Unfortunately, this is all true.  Early in the season it didn't matter as much because there was no film on Dorsey's offense.  Nobody knew what to expect from him.  But as the games have moved along, it has become very apparent that he runs a basic offense with little to no creativity.  There is no scheming guys open like there was with Daboll.  Daboll would constantly use motions, misdirection, and other eye candy to scheme certain guys open on a specific play.  There would be so much eye candy at times, it would cause defenses to take a couple extra beats to figure out what was going on, but that would be plenty to get guys open.  While it didn't always work, you could just see the creativity.  He would also build man beaters and zone beaters into just about every play so once he used his motions and got Allen to diagnose the overages pre-snap, he knew exactly where to go with the ball.

 

Dorsey is doing the opposite.  He's not running a ton of motion.  He's not helping Allen be able to see what the defense is in pre-snap.  He's lining guys up, hoping they win their match-ups, and letting Allen try and find the open guy as the play develops.  Too many times it's been easy for me to tell what play is being run just by the alignments before the snap.  Perfect example was the QB sneak at the end of the Vikings game.  They had been using the same motion with the same player and the same pacing for weeks prior to that play.  Everyone watching knew what was coming and the Vikings were able to guess right and blow it up.  If there was ever a time to try something different, that was it and he didn't have anything.  That's not how things should be done in today's NFL. 

 

Too many times Allen is waiting for the play to be run, not seeing anyone get open within the structure of the actual call and then going into scramble drills where he needs his WRs to win outside of the structure of the play call.  While Allen hasn't been his best at times this year, it's mainly because he's not getting any help.  In fact, he's still hiding a lot of the deficiencies this team actually has and that's scary.  Dorsey isn't doing Allen any favors right now and it is frustrating to watch.

Yes! Yesterday there was a 3rd and 7 (I believe) and we see a 7 step drop. Allen waiting more than 3 seconds for a receiver to get open then a sack and punt. Why not a quick out, or slant, or pick? We don't need a 30 yard play there. We need 8 yards to move the sticks and get into a rhythm. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

I think we’re the most efficient offense between the 20. I could be wrong. Just have to figure out redzone. 

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

44 minutes ago, Roundybout said:

We’re also completely missing designed bootlegs to isolate someone like Davis or Knox for an easy 5-8 yards. Mac Jones did it all the time last night. 

The Bills have never been able to run a proper TE bootleg, almost ever. Maybe Jim Kelly days was the last consistent success on that play. Even when they run one now with “success,” it’s like a 5-yard gain. 

[Scott7975]

Yes our offensive design is a dumpster fire right now.  It expects our guys to win their battles when we dont really have guys that do that regularly.  It puts too much pressure on Josh to be perfect and throw in small windows for most of the game.  Its a damn catastophe that Matt Patricia can scheme guys open and Dorsey relies on this.  It also relies on our o line to hold their blocks well to give Josh and the receiver time and they dont which is part of the reason Knox is not part of this passing offense.

 

This offense design might work really well if we had players like Hill and Waddle but we dont.  We have slow guys that rely on crisp route running to get open and Diggs is the only crisp route runner.

Edited November 25, 2022 by Scott7975

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

To defend Dorsey, I saw some really

nifty new misdirection run plays yesterday. I think he is continuing to build and innovate. 

[SageAgainstTheMachine]

He's a rookie.  I know that's an unsatisfying thought for a team with SB aspirations but every coordinator who went on to become a great coordinator had a rookie season and they'd probably all tell you about the bounteous mistakes they made.

 

By the way we average the second most points in the NFL, so there's that.

[ColoradoBills]

58 minutes ago, Roundybout said:

We’re also completely missing designed bootlegs to isolate someone like Davis or Knox for an easy 5-8 yards. Mac Jones did it all the time last night. 

 

Josh is exclusively flushing to the right.  Daboll had plays that let Josh move to his left.  I always thought that was effective to

reverse that tendency.  

 

5 minutes ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

To defend Dorsey, I saw some really

nifty new misdirection run plays yesterday. I think he is continuing to build and innovate. 

 

I've mentioned the lack of misdirection.  It should not just be on run plays.

 

A glaring problem I noticed yesterday was the number of check-downs, WR screens and flares that were totally read by the defense.

It has to mean the offense is way too predictable and has way too many "tells".  

 

It seems to me this has to be addressed in the next 2 weeks.  Especially with a 10 day mini-break coming up soon.

I know Dorsey is new and we would have to live through this but it's becoming too obvious and actually is putting Josh in danger.

[Yobogoya!]

6 minutes ago, SageAgainstTheMachine said:

He's a rookie.  I know that's an unsatisfying thought for a team with SB aspirations but every coordinator who went on to become a great coordinator had a rookie season and they'd probably all tell you about the bounteous mistakes they made.

 

By the way we average the second most points in the NFL, so there's that.

This is true, not to mention that the only team averaging more points and yards per game has one of the most talented Offensive minds in league history with 20+ years of play calling experience. 
 

What’s unfortunate is that we don’t seem to have anyone else in the building to assist as Dorsey comes into his own. McD just doesn’t have the knowledge and experience on that side of the ball. It’s not an ideal situation to be in to compete for a title.. 

[Donuts and Doritos]

Here's team stat & rankings link. While the overall seems good, the RedZone rank #18, Completion % #23, and Time of Possession #20, & Sack % #9, all stand out.

 

Then there's the player stats link. It's really telling looking at receivers. Diggs is a disproportionate share twice as many targets as Davis who's 2nd. Knox is tied with Davis for same # of catches this year. But TGT% (catch %) is really interesting. Diggs, Knox & Singletary are 70+%. Then McKenzie 66%. Davis is just 55% and everyone else is below him. That's a big drop off. Kind of goes to Cosell's point that only Diggs can consistently win his 1 on 1.

 

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/team/buffalo-bills/stats

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/teams/BUF/buffalo-bills/stats/regular/

[Wizard]

The quick screen passes didn't work yesterday. More playaction, utilizing Singletary in the ground game more, and getting Shakir on the field or OBJ on the roster would solve a good portion of these tendencies.

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, Dr.Sack said:

No more of those RPO slant passes to WRs in redzone. The field is too bunched and too many teams have seen this film. Bare minimum perhaps actually do the run option to make defense respect it.

It's a deflected int every time. We gotta stop being so predictable. 

[Alphadawg7]

I’ve got major issues with Dorsey.  He, IMHO, is the absolute main reason for the offensive struggles.  The offense had too much early success to start the year and now that defenses had the tape to figure it out, Dorsey can’t and hasn’t adjusted.  
 

I could write 10 paragraphs right now on what I’m upset with him about, but what’s the point.  He is our biggest Achilles heal right now. 

[Donuts and Doritos]

25 minutes ago, SageAgainstTheMachine said:

He's a rookie.  I know that's an unsatisfying thought for a team with SB aspirations but every coordinator who went on to become a great coordinator had a rookie season and they'd probably all tell you about the bounteous mistakes they made.

 

By the way we average the second most points in the NFL, so there's that.

 

I get he's a Rookie, but he's got a lot of talent to work with & we are in a SB window. So question is schematically how can he adapt & improve to help the Offense reach it's full potential? (We may be #2 in pts but we're #18 in the RedZone 53.5%, so still leaving a lot of meat on the bone).

 

Edited November 25, 2022 by Donuts and Doritos

[ColoradoBills]

6 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I’ve got major issues with Dorsey.  He, IMHO, is the absolute main reason for the offensive struggles.  The offense had too much early success to start the year and now that defenses had the tape to figure it out, Dorsey can’t and hasn’t adjusted.  
 

I could write 10 paragraphs right now on what I’m upset with him about, but what’s the point.  He is our biggest Achilles heal right now. 

 

I have to add that the OL pass protection is falling way off.  But Dorsey is the OC and it's his job to minimize that with his calls.

Bottom line, it seems to me that the offense just isn't acting as a consistent cohesive unit.  I'm starting to question how much the

Bills offense is attacking the defensive weaknesses.

 

It's been a crazy 4 weeks and I'm hoping things get a little more organized in the next 2 weeks.

[starrymessenger]

JT O'Sullivan did a good breakdown of the Bills O in his segment on the Vikings game. Showed numerous clips of Josh sitting in the pocket waiting for routes to develop. Well into the down he would freeze frame the action to show what Josh got to see - which was the backs of his WRs. The majority of downs that were productive involved Josh freelancing outside the playcalls, almost always to his right. So again, pretty much everything on Josh's shoulders. As good as he is that's not what you want. Opposing Ds have clearly figured this clown show out.

Pretty obvious Dorsey is for now in way over his head. I get it that he's new to the position but the guy has a ton of football experience, including as a QB. Why the deficiencies and possible solutions would be so evident to fans and commenters in general (like Greg Cosell) and lie beyond the grasp of the braintrust at OBD is a mystery to me. The only real advantage that PM has over Allen is AR and EB and a GM who looks to find the right tools for Patrick.

Even if Dorsey starts to figure it out you have to wonder how long it will take to implement the necessary changes. If we don't see improvement soon Dorsey is definitely not the guy.

[LabattBlue]

6 minutes ago, starrymessenger said:

JT O'Sullivan did a good breakdown of the Bills O in his segment on the Vikings game. Showed numerous clips of Josh sitting in the pocket waiting for routes to develop. Well into the down he would freeze frame the action to show what Josh got to see - which was the backs of his WRs. The majority of downs that were productive involved Josh freelancing outside the playcalls, almost always to his right. So again, pretty much everything on Josh's shoulders. As good as he is that's not what you want. Opposing Ds have clearly figured this clown show out.

Pretty obvious Dorsey is for now in way over his head. I get it that he's new to the position but the guy has a ton of football experience, including as a QB. Why the deficiencies and possible solutions would be so evident to fans and commenters in general (like Greg Cosell) and lie beyond the grasp of the braintrust at OBD is a mystery to me. The only real advantage that PM has over Allen is AR and EB and a GM who looks to find the right tools for Patrick.

Even if Dorsey starts to figure it out you have to wonder how long it will take to implement the necessary changes. If we don't see improvement soon Dorsey is definitely not the guy.

The Bills cannot afford during the "Allen SB contending window" to piss away a season while Dorsey learns on the job.  Either he is an OC capable of making this team a SB winner NOW, or replace him with someone who is. 

 

An OC who requires some on the job training is for teams on the outside looking in, not the Bills.

[HomeskillitMoorman]

5 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

The Bills cannot afford during the "Allen SB contending window" to piss away a season while Dorsey learns on the job.  Either he is an OC capable of making this team a SB winner NOW, or replace him with someone who is. 

 

An OC who requires some on the job training is for teams on the outside looking in, not the Bills.

 

Exactly. McD should have been sure this guy was ready and got a sense for what his plan was. He's not ready at all and it might kill a precious season of Josh in his 20's. 

[ColoradoBills]

8 minutes ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

 

Exactly. McD should have been sure this guy was ready and got a sense for what his plan was. He's not ready at all and it might kill a precious season of Josh in his 20's. 

 

The thing is you can never be sure.  If it wasn't him who would have taken his place?  Bringing in an entirely different scheme could of

done damage too.  

[BillMafia716ix]

I was screaming at my TV yesterday because of Dorsey’s play calling. I could go on for hours about what I don’t like. However my biggest issue is why  Devin Singletary is ever coming off the field? The rotation we use at RB is so baffling to me. 
 

Singletary pops a 8-10 yard run then immediately gets taken out for James Cook. Or even better we start offensive series with Singletary on the bench!! It pisses me off so bad. Only time Singletary should ever come off the field is if he needs a blow. We don’t even have formations with the two on the field at the same time either. It’s so frustrating. 

Edited November 25, 2022 by BillMafia716ix

[IBTG81]

Uh, guys. 
Wasn’t Dorsey the passing game coordinator last year? 
He seemed to do a great job last year. It’s definitely not his concepts that are the issue. 

[Taro Nimbus]

Damn….it’s almost like anyone can come off the street and do a better job play calling!   I’m surprised the Bills haven’t canned Dorsey already!!!  😱.  Didn’t Bills fans hate Daboll too in the beginning?      Relax!   It all comes down to execution of the plays.   We didn’t have any issues when we were sitting at 6-1, but hit a rough patch and now we’re doomed.   🙄

[97bills]

2 hours ago, sven233 said:

Unfortunately, this is all true.  Early in the season it didn't matter as much because there was no film on Dorsey's offense.  Nobody knew what to expect from him.  But as the games have moved along, it has become very apparent that he runs a basic offense with little to no creativity.  There is no scheming guys open like there was with Daboll.  Daboll would constantly use motions, misdirection, and other eye candy to scheme certain guys open on a specific play.  There would be so much eye candy at times, it would cause defenses to take a couple extra beats to figure out what was going on, but that would be plenty to get guys open.  While it didn't always work, you could just see the creativity.  He would also build man beaters and zone beaters into just about every play so once he used his motions and got Allen to diagnose the overages pre-snap, he knew exactly where to go with the ball.

 

Dorsey is doing the opposite.  He's not running a ton of motion.  He's not helping Allen be able to see what the defense is in pre-snap.  He's lining guys up, hoping they win their match-ups, and letting Allen try and find the open guy as the play develops.  Too many times it's been easy for me to tell what play is being run just by the alignments before the snap.  Perfect example was the QB sneak at the end of the Vikings game.  They had been using the same motion with the same player and the same pacing for weeks prior to that play.  Everyone watching knew what was coming and the Vikings were able to guess right and blow it up.  If there was ever a time to try something different, that was it and he didn't have anything.  That's not how things should be done in today's NFL. 

 

Too many times Allen is waiting for the play to be run, not seeing anyone get open within the structure of the actual call and then going into scramble drills where he needs his WRs to win outside of the structure of the play call.  While Allen hasn't been his best at times this year, it's mainly because he's not getting any help.  In fact, he's still hiding a lot of the deficiencies this team actually has and that's scary.  Dorsey isn't doing Allen any favors right now and it is frustrating to watch.

All so true , and I watched that last big play to diggs and thankfully he got open. Because no one else was even close to being open. 

[starrymessenger]

5 minutes ago, IBTG81 said:

Uh, guys. 
Wasn’t Dorsey the passing game coordinator last year? 
He seemed to do a great job last year. It’s definitely not his concepts that are the issue. 

And what was Daboll doing last year? Don't you think he was involved with Josh and the passing game?

Dorsey's scheme and play calling seems lacking in concepts and sophistication (though somehow it's supposed to be complicated, or maybe that was last year) and, in any event, is not fooling opposing DCs. Moreover his ability to make needed adjustments, amongst other things, seems problematic to put it mildly.

He needs to get better. Or go away.

[IBTG81]

3 minutes ago, starrymessenger said:

And what was Daboll doing last year? Don't you think he was involved with Josh and the passing game?

Dorsey's scheme and play calling seems lacking in concepts and sophistication (though somehow it's supposed to be complicated, or maybe that was last year) and, in any event, is not fooling opposing DCs. Moreover his ability to make needed adjustments, amongst other things, seems problematic to put it mildly.

He needs to get better. Or go away.

Do you know what a passing coordinator does?

[Buffalo716]

But this message board told me Dorsey was the hottest head coach in waiting

 

hahahahhahahahhahahahhahahahahahahahhahHahahahhahhahahahhahahhahaha

[starrymessenger]

1 hour ago, IBTG81 said:

Do you know what a passing coordinator does?

Sure. Although functionally it can carry with the designation different responsibilities and serve a purpose other than the self evident one of working with the WRs in the development of passing concepts for addressing different  game situations. Not all organizations do things the same way. Sometimes it's more just a title to distinguish a guy from other assistants when he's targeted for an OC or ultimately a HCing position.
I guess your point is that if it (he) was good last year well he must be the same stellar character he was then. Thing is he's not called plays before (except maybe in training camp or preseason games idk) , so there may well be a lot of things in the playbook that we've seen before but maybe not so much since he's taken over. Daboll called the plays last year.
Many of Dorsey's playcalls have been pretty awful situationally. Also as OC he's ultimately responsible for implementing the running game, which can help the passing game. Can it be that not having been the "running backs coach/coordinator" explains why he won't run the ball even when the situation calls for it and appears indifferent even when it's working well enuf? 
And of course one of the things that makes a good OC is the ability to make adjustments when things get figured out (as inevitably they do). I've not seen that in Dorsey. Looks to me like just doing the same thing that isn't working over and over again. With the same results.

Maybe he can improve but he does need to start showing it.

Edited November 25, 2022 by starrymessenger

[Donuts and Doritos]

2 hours ago, IBTG81 said:

Uh, guys. 
Wasn’t Dorsey the passing game coordinator last year? 
He seemed to do a great job last year. It’s definitely not his concepts that are the issue. 

 

Past success is not indicative of future success as they say. Fact remains a number of concepts from last year, which other teams use, are not being used (stack formations, rubs & picks). You can see the offense is struggling, experts like Cosell can see it. So the question posed here is what adjustments can Dorsey make schematically & play call wise to get things running smoother on offense. 

[FilthyBeast]

I know it's wishful thinking but there is the outside chance that this team is saving a lot of stuff for the playoffs, particularly on offense.

 

But play design can only go so far when you lack the horses to effectively run it and if Dawkins is out an extended time an already bad oline is going to have even more problems which by default limits the playbook options.