Why don't NFL players have Tommy John surgery?

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, SACTOBILLSFAN said:

The same reason you rarely see torn labrum injuries in QBs as a result of throwing. The arm path is completely different and the overall stress on the UCL isn’t near the same as a baseball player. 
 

Every pitch is thrown with maximum intent and passes in football are not. The power generated through the kinetic chain from ankle flexion all the way through hip and shoulder separation to external rotation in the shoulder then finally into the elbow is exponentially higher in baseball. I have Modus data to back this up but it’s just charts and graphs and not great for this format. For a visual just imagine in your head how a pitcher finishes off every pitch and how a QB finishes every throw. One is considerably more violent than the other. Pitchers have much more in common with javelin throwers than QBs when it comes to arm and shoulder stress and studying javelin throwing was how many breakthroughs in velocity happened. 
 

And as many people have mentioned in this thread, the overall difference in the number of reps in a game or practice is vast. Without taking into account spring and offseason work a starting professional pitcher will throw 5000ish pitches in season. Even the most sparsely used relievers will throw at a volume that QBs just don’t see. 

 

 

To me........the grip in throwing a baseball is a big issue with the ulnar nerve.   It's very closed and focuses torque into the upper forearm.   I still pitch BP to kids in youth baseball and my forearm is aching like an SOB after just 50-60 full force pitches or less.     The wide open grip on the football seems to put A LOT less torque on the forearm.   I have never felt that pain in the forearm throwing a football.    

[cba fan]

4 hours ago, BringBackFergy said:

A serious question:

 

Baseball players/pitchers sometime require Tommy John surgery because the throwing motion in baseball is unnatural (overhand).

Softball players don't require Tommy John because underhand throwing is actually the natural motion for our arms and shoulders.

 

NFL QB's throw overhand....

 

I'm surprised more QB's haven't had to undergo Tommy John surgery.

 

Is there a reason?

much less throws at much lower speed. Less wind up and follow through. Arm does not go as far back as a pitcher. No mound to fall forward and down on to increase speed and stress on arm. No snapping of elbow sideways to throw curves, sliders, and screwballs.

[Putin]

4 hours ago, BringBackFergy said:

I'm not sure how he survives each game.

 

 

What does that has to do with Tua ? 

[NoSaint]

57 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

To me........the grip in throwing a baseball is a big issue with the ulnar nerve.   It's very closed and focuses torque into the upper forearm.   I still pitch BP to kids in youth baseball and my forearm is aching like an SOB after just 50-60 full force pitches or less.     The wide open grip on the football seems to put A LOT less torque on the forearm.   I have never felt that pain in the forearm throwing a football.    

 

picturing badol throwing heaters at 7 year olds. 
 

48 minutes ago, cba fan said:

much less throws at much lower speed. Less wind up and follow through. Arm does not go as far back as a pitcher. No mound to fall forward and down on to increase speed and stress on arm. No snapping of elbow sideways to throw curves, sliders, and screwballs.

Can you imagine if josh got a mound in the pocket? 
 

Would his fast ball or running start down the hill be more exciting?

[Simon Says]

5 hours ago, MJS said:

Pitchers throw at an extremely high velocity 150 times a game. And they have 162 games in a season. They don't play every game, but they play a lot more games than NFL QB's do.

 

So I think they just throw it a ton more than an NFL QB, and probably at a much higher velocity.

Nobody throws 150 pitches,especially with all the relief specialists.

[MJS]

4 minutes ago, Georgie said:

Nobody throws 150 pitches,especially with all the relief specialists.

Fine. I read 100 to 130. Not that far off.

[4merper4mer]

5 hours ago, H2o said:

If we are taking into account solely the stress put on an arm and shoulder as a whole while strictly comparing a pitcher to a QB? Absolutely. Now if you are talking about getting hit? Of course they don't get hit. The stress on a pitcher's arm though is well beyond that of a QB. Starting pitchers are putting everything they have into hurling the ball anywhere between 85-120 times an outing. They may take the mound 35 times in a year. That's well beyond the 30-60 passes a QB may throw in, at the most, 21 games. And QB's aren't always throwing the ball as hard as can either. 

Pitchers don’t get hit?  Shirley.

 

 

[That's No Moon]

2 minutes ago, Georgie said:

Nobody throws 150 pitches,especially with all the relief specialists.

The way the baseball throwing motion is, every single throw stresses the UCL to the breaking point. Warmup pitches, throws to first base, etc. If a pitcher throws 100 pitches in the game they probably throw the ball over 130 times.

 

This is why you see UCL injuries to catchers. They don't throw all out every throw but they get the wear and tear of throw after throw and they don't get relievers.

 

The motion of throwing a football is a fundamentally different motion which stresses different areas. Without getting overly technical, from what I know about baseball throwing motions, there are pitchers who are more at risk than others because of the way they throw. If you look like an M in your delivery it's bad and those guys have more problems because of the way they torque their arms out of that position to throw home. Stephen Strasbourg is an M guy. I've also seen it called inverted W which is silly because...that's an M.

 

Football throwing doesn't put you into that position. You really can't throw a football that way effectively so most people dont. You usually throw footballs up to some degree, baseballs you are throwing down so you can get away with some different things, plus the ball is smaller and lighter. An earlier poster postulated about the grip and it's kind of that but it's more about hand down versus hand up during the wind up. It's hard to explain without a visual. Try it. Stand with your arms like an M and then throw a baseball. You pull the ball up and then around your body, which if you do it fast, and a lot, is very stressful. If you keep your hand up or "fangs out" on the ball you will more naturally rotate your body to throw the ball and use the little muscles in your arm less and put less stress on the elbow. Again, hard to explain, easier to show.

 

https://youtu.be/MDzvD-3neaU

 

This is an example of bad.

 

https://youtu.be/T_l-bMP2c4c

 

[without a drought]

3 hours ago, TheFunPolice said:

 

Have you ever tried to stay awake for an entire baseball game?

 

It aint easy. 

 

Definitely, baseball is a more grueling sport to watch than football.

[co_springs_billsfan]

31 minutes ago, without a drought said:

Definitely, baseball is a more grueling sport to watch than football.

[cDAVIS]

5 hours ago, BringBackFergy said:

Faker. That’s the biggest hoax since Will Smith “slapped” Chris Rock. Great theater though. 

You're a very angry and combative human. I can't tell if you're serious or not because everything you say is so out of left field. Whatever, good luck out there bud.

[BobbyC81]

6 hours ago, The Jokeman said:

RJ did but apparently it didn't get him to get his arm strength back according to Wikipedia. 

 

 

Comeback attempts (2006–2008)[edit]

Following his release from Oakland in 2004, Johnson underwent Tommy John surgery, a procedure more commonly performed on baseball pitchers. A tendon was taken from Johnson's wrist and transplanted into his elbow to replace the injured tendon that resembled "a frayed rope" from overuse. After a year of recovery, Johnson worked out for the Tennessee Titans, but was not signed. Reports suggested his arm strength was still under 50%. In 2006, Johnson was signed by the New York Giants to compete for a roster spot behind starter Eli Manning. Johnson was released before the preseason came to an end. In an NFL.com interview, Johnson vowed to continue his career for as long as he could play at "an NFL level."

In September 2008, Johnson was invited to a Titans workout, along with Joey Harrington and Chris Simms. However, the Titans signed Simms as a backup for veteran Kerry Collins. This was Johnson's last reported NFL workout.

Maybe for football, they may call it something different , like the Rob Johnson surgery.

[strive_for_five_guy]

1 hour ago, Georgie said:

Nobody throws 150 pitches,especially with all the relief specialists.

Pud Galvin begs to differ.

[Augie]

7 hours ago, BringBackFergy said:

A serious question:

 

Baseball players/pitchers sometime require Tommy John surgery because the throwing motion in baseball is unnatural (overhand).

Softball players don't require Tommy John because underhand throwing is actually the natural motion for our arms and shoulders.

 

NFL QB's throw overhand....

 

I'm surprised more QB's haven't had to undergo Tommy John surgery.

 

Is there a reason?

 

OK, I’ve had a couple drinks and you almost have me talked into it.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

7 hours ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

Baseball is a great sport !

 

I'm watching my Beloved Atlanta Braves win 11 games in a row !

 

Very exciting !

 

Booooooooo!!!!

 

From a Mets fan!

 

 

38 minutes ago, BobbyC81 said:

Maybe for football, they may call it something different , like the Rob Johnson surgery.

 

Good point, did anyone Google that?  There may be 100's of cases!

Edited June 14, 2022 by Ed_Formerly_of_Roch

[Big Turk]

7 hours ago, BringBackFergy said:

A serious question:

 

Baseball players/pitchers sometime require Tommy John surgery because the throwing motion in baseball is unnatural (overhand).

Softball players don't require Tommy John because underhand throwing is actually the natural motion for our arms and shoulders.

 

NFL QB's throw overhand....

 

I'm surprised more QB's haven't had to undergo Tommy John surgery.

 

Is there a reason?

 

Different throwing motion due to the size of the ball and it's the equivalent of throwing a fastball.

 

Very few pitchers would need Tommy John surgery if all they threw were fastballs. Curves and sliders are the pitches that put a lot of strain on the elbow due to having to get rotation on the ball.

[NoSaint]

52 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Different throwing motion due to the size of the ball and it's the equivalent of throwing a fastball.

 

Very few pitchers would need Tommy John surgery if all they threw were fastballs. Curves and sliders are the pitches that put a lot of strain on the elbow due to having to get rotation on the ball.

follow up: could josh throw curves or breaking balls to help get the ball past defenders? 
 

like, you’d have to practice a lot and maybe have a signal but imagine if josh could could slice or hook his throws? A back shoulder where the receiver stops AND the ball comes back? Deadly. I wonder if Jordan Palmer knows how to do those.

[Big Turk]

4 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

follow up: could josh throw curves or breaking balls to help get the ball past defenders? 
 

like, you’d have to practice a lot and maybe have a signal but imagine if josh could could slice or hook his throws? A back shoulder where the receiver stops AND the ball comes back? Deadly. I wonder if Jordan Palmer knows how to do those.

 

Probably not. A football isn't shaped right for that 

[NoSaint]

3 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Probably not. A football isn't shaped right for that 

maybe, I guess. I think they used to say that about normal passing downfield too.

[BringBackFergy]

4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

To me........the grip in throwing a baseball is a big issue with the ulnar nerve.   It's very closed and focuses torque into the upper forearm.   I still pitch BP to kids in youth baseball and my forearm is aching like an SOB after just 50-60 full force pitches or less.     The wide open grip on the football seems to put A LOT less torque on the forearm.   I have never felt that pain in the forearm throwing a football.    

You need to learn how to throw a football properly. It’s easy. I’ll show you some time. 

[Big Turk]

6 minutes ago, BringBackFergy said:

You need to learn how to throw a football properly. It’s easy. I’ll show you some time. 

 

Uncle Rico...is that you??

 

[maddenboy]

7 hours ago, NoSaint said:

Can you imagine if josh got a mound in the pocket? 

 

Would his fast ball or running start down the hill be more exciting?

I mean, there's gotta be at LEAST five sex jokes in here somewhere, right?

[Thurman#1]

13 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

He did it twice in his career.

 

 

Really? Oh, man! Horrible! I just don't follow MLB much over here and I'd totally missed this. Awful to watch.

[Gugny]

12 hours ago, co_springs_billsfan said:

 

I was just watching the Big Sexy HR last night!!!  LOVED him on the Mets.

[BringBackFergy]

13 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I was just watching the Big Sexy HR last night!!!  LOVED him on the Mets.

That video depicts pure athleticism?

 

[Gugny]

5 minutes ago, BringBackFergy said:

That video depicts pure athleticism?

 

 

No ... these two do ...

 

 

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

4 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Really? Oh, man! Horrible! I just don't follow MLB much over here and I'd totally missed this. Awful to watch.

 

Yep.  He tried a 2nd comeback.  The mental toughness he had is unreal.  Happened once...yeah I would probably attempt a comeback.  If it happened twice, I could never throw a baseball hard again in my life.

 

On May 26, 1999, while pitching against the Texas Rangers, Saunders suffered a significant arm injury while pitching to Juan González.[2] As he delivered a 3–2 pitch to the Rangers slugger, his pitching arm suddenly snapped with enough force that the sound of it could be heard throughout the stadium. Saunders subsequently collapsed on the mound, screaming in pain and smacking his right arm on the ground. Within moments, team trainer Jamie Reed and teammates John Flaherty and Kevin Stocker rushed to his side. Saunders had to be carted off the field, as the pain was too much for him to walk. He was diagnosed with a humerus fracture and torn ligaments in his arm, an injury severe enough to end his season.[3][4]

Saunders attempted to rehab the injury and make a comeback, and was sent on a rehabilitation assignment in August 2000. He successfully pitched in two games for the Class A Charleston RiverDogs, then moved to the Class A-Advanced St. Petersburg Devil Rays.[5] On August 24, during his fifth rehab game, Saunders’ humerus snapped again.[6] With the break occurring in almost the same spot as it had before, Saunders retired immediately afterward, aged 26.[7] Saunders was the 2000 recipient of the Tony Conigliaro Award, which honors a major league player who "overcomes an obstacle and adversity".[8]

After baseball, Saunders worked as a stockbroker.[9] In 2005, Saunders announced a comeback, signing a minor league contract with the Baltimore Orioles, and making their spring training roster. He pitched one inning against the St. Louis Cardinals before he was reassigned to the minor leagues. He remained listed on the Bowie Baysox roster for the whole 2005 season, but never pitched in a game, although he did appear in nine games for the Mesa Miners of the Golden Baseball League.

[Simon Says]

20 hours ago, MJS said:

Pitchers throw at an extremely high velocity 150 times a game. And they have 162 games in a season. They don't play every game, but they play a lot more games than NFL QB's do.

 

So I think they just throw it a ton more than an NFL QB, and probably at a much higher velocity.

Nobody throws 150 pitches. Due to increased use of relief specialists and reliance on data....starting pitchers are now averaging barely 5 innings and 80 pitches per game.

[HardyBoy]

Only read the first page, so might have been said.

 

My understanding is it comes down to two main things. The weight of the baseball is a lot less. Throwing a baseball is much more like dry firing a bow...go outside and throw a heavy ball vs a feather with the same arm speed, you'll feel the force on your elbow with the feather.

 

Second, it is the position of your hand when you throw a baseball vs a football and the release point that puts more strain on the elbow. 

 

I read an article on it a while back on ESPN.com or the athletic maybe. Definitely interesting. 

[Steve O]

20 hours ago, BringBackFergy said:

A serious question:

Baseball players/pitchers sometime require Tommy John surgery because the throwing motion in baseball is unnatural (overhand).

Softball players don't require Tommy John because underhand throwing is actually the natural motion for our arms and shoulders.

NFL QB's throw overhand....

I'm surprised more QB's haven't had to undergo Tommy John surgery.

Is there a reason?

Haven't read through 4 pages but my shoulder surgeon told me Nolan Ryan would throw a football to warm up to get that pure overhand motion. What's unnatural isn't the pure overhand motion but coming from the side like I did for 40 years of playing softball. Ryan didn't have the surgery even when it was recommended by Dr. Jobe.

[billykay]

22 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

A baseball players arm requires more "snap" and they throw different pitches...the elbow goes through so much more strain.

QB's aren't throwing curveballs, sliders, split fingers etc...

 

Plus they throw hard every throw.  You don't change your arm speed on change ups.

A QB isn't sitting back and throwing with everything on every throw.  There's touch passes, lob passes, quick slants etc...

 

This. I was just going to say that baseball pitchers not only throw hard, they also are snapping their elbow every time they throw a curve or slider. As an aside, I've played HS and College basketball and I have yet to see a torn ACL. I'm sure there are some but it is seldom compared to football. Lots of starting stopping and twisting but just a few knee injuries compared to football.

[NoHuddleKelly12]

22 hours ago, Draconator said:

 

So was Scott Norwood

[JESSEFEFFER]

The position of the wrist at the moment a baseball is released puts much more strain on the elbow than what a football does.  Other pitches made to create different spin and cause additional movement, are often more the cause of elbow problems.  QBs would be more likely to suffer injuries to their wrist and shoulder than to their elbow but that burden is more likely the result of cumulative throws made during overly aggressive training than during a game, imo.  Being tackled by a 300+ lb defender with the elbow or shoulder first to contact the ground is the biggest threat to a QB's arm joints (think Josh's A/C sprain--non throwing side--suffered vs. Raiders.)  This was a landing with full body weight cheapshot, imo, that was not called.

 

 

[benderbender]

On 6/13/2022 at 1:58 PM, boater said:

https://www.quora.com/Why-don-t-NFL-QBs-seem-to-get-injuries-that-need-Tommy-John-surgery-as-MLB-pitchers-do

I'll often be scrolling through "answers" and read halfway through an ad before realizing it. But that sort of advertising doesn't work on me. Because I take AdForgetter+ now with 35% more calcium.

[djp14150]

On 6/13/2022 at 2:05 PM, Gugny said:

 

Baseball is a far more grueling sport than football.

 

Pitchers pitch every 5 days.

NFL QBs play every 7 days.

 

Pitchers usually throw about 100 pitches/game.

QBs throw 30-40 passes.

 

Pitchers are always "throwing hard," even the off-speed stuff is going 75-80 mph and the arm motion is the same.

QBs usually throw the ball less than 10 yards in the air.

 

 

 

too add….

over a season 30  starts amount to 3000 pitches at least

pro season…they might throw 500 times

6 yrs nfl= 1 yrin baseball

 

on top of that, throwing motion is very different.

 

When throwing the football generally the motion and strains are very different..

 

1.  Wrist strain is different

2. elbow strain is different.  The elbow strain also involves twists and turns.  You don’t get these whrn throw8ng a football

3. affection the shoulder is very different.  

 

 

[boater]

8 hours ago, benderbender said:

I'll often be scrolling through "answers" and read halfway through an ad before realizing it. But that sort of advertising doesn't work on me. Because I take AdForgetter+ now with 35% more calcium.

Heh. An interesting take. I use two ad-blockers (probably to the chagrin of SDS and Moderators) and never noticed ads on Quora or TBD/TSW.