Baldy breakdown on Bates

[TPS]

A nice little Baldy Breakdown on Ryan Bates:

 

[Brand J]

Bates is a very athletic lineman. I thought brute strength was a weakness in his game, but he held up well in his starts. I don’t remember him being blatantly overpowered once and he went up against some good ones. Makes you wonder why it took so long for him to see the field. Backing up all the interior positions isn’t an excuse to me when he outperformed the starter at his job.

[GETTOTHE50]

THE FANNY PACK

[947]

I love Baldy's analysis, he really knows his stuff, especially O-line play. It's great to see him so complimentary of Bates.

 

I was clamoring for giving Bates a shot on here all last season. I knew he had to be better than Ford or Boettger, but I had no idea he'd transform the line the way he did. I'm really glad Beane found a way to keep him.

[LeGOATski]

29 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

Bates is a very athletic lineman. I thought brute strength was a weakness in his game, but he held up well in his starts. I don’t remember him being blatantly overpowered once and he went up against some good ones. Makes you wonder why it took so long for him to see the field. Backing up all the interior positions isn’t an excuse to me when he outperformed the starter at his job.

This coaching staff's treatment of the OL has been an enigma for McDermott's entire tenure. You never know what might happen with it.

[SCBills]

1 minute ago, LeGOATski said:

This coaching staff's treatment of the OL has been an enigma for McDermott's entire tenure. You never know what might happen with it.

 

Bright spot.. They can identify OL talent.  

 

Not so bright spot.. We can't be sure they'll play them (Teller, Bates)

 

I do give them a bit of a pass on Teller.  He looks great on Cleveland, but he's also a fit for their style of play.  He's not exactly an elite pass pro guy in a pass heavy offense. 

 

Bates, no clue, seems they were obsessed with having positional flexibility as depth.  

 

Bringing back Kromer is such a big move.  He can make mediocre OL's play to above average level, and this OL does have talent... Dawkins and Morse are very good players, and Kromer has all the potential in the world to play with on the right side of the line in Bates/Brown. 

[msw2112]

A common philosophy with O-lines is to "put the best 5 on the field."  The Bills seemed to follow this logic when they put Brown at RT and moved Williams inside to RG.  They did the opposite with Bates, instead trying just about everyone else at guard (Ike, Ford, the towel boy) before making Bates the starter.  I believe it's because they really liked Bates' flexibility.  He can back up all 5 OL positions, so they wanted to have him ready in the event of an injury.  And maybe they were able to save a roster spot because of it.  If Bates starts, do you need more players to back up all of the 5 OL positions?

 

Regardless of what they were doing prior to that, making Bates the starter was clearly the right move.  The Bills' running game and offense were significantly improved after the Bates was inserted into the starting lineup.  They also made the right move to match his offer sheet - they are now keeping a good, young lineman at a very reasonable cost. 

Edited May 24, 2022 by msw2112

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, JayBaller10 said:

Bates is a very athletic lineman. I thought brute strength was a weakness in his game, but he held up well in his starts. I don’t remember him being blatantly overpowered once and he went up against some good ones. Makes you wonder why it took so long for him to see the field. Backing up all the interior positions isn’t an excuse to me when he outperformed the starter at his job.

Yeah I am not buying that either.....if you are outplaying a starter you should be on the field

[babulator]

I love Baldy's breakdowns, he's soo enthusiastic! That's a guy that loves him some football.

[Rigotz]

2 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

Bates is a very athletic lineman. I thought brute strength was a weakness in his game, but he held up well in his starts. I don’t remember him being blatantly overpowered once and he went up against some good ones. Makes you wonder why it took so long for him to see the field. Backing up all the interior positions isn’t an excuse to me when he outperformed the starter at his job.

 

I made a long thread detailing incidents where Bobby Johnson, our former O-Line, coach failed us.

This year with Kromer, I think you'll see a big positive change. We might also finally get something out of Cody Ford.

 

My guess is that's why we didn't address the Guard position in the draft. We might already have one and not know it.

[H2o]

1 hour ago, Rigotz said:

 

I made a long thread detailing incidents where Bobby Johnson, our former O-Line, coach failed us.

This year with Kromer, I think you'll see a big positive change. We might also finally get something out of Cody Ford.

 

My guess is that's why we didn't address the Guard position in the draft. We might already have one and not know it.

[Rubes]

Be nice if he showed film of Bates from more than one game.

 

[billybrew1]

It’s true! Bates was a revelation to our OL . It was solidified from that point on….

[FilthyBeast]

It says a lot that we decided to match the Vikings offer sheet (although you can argue we should have known he'd cost more to begin with).

 

If Bates does become an above average NFL starter it helps take the stench off the Wyatt Teller situation. Still don't understand how you can let an all pro elite talent like that go though.

[BillsShredder83]

6 hours ago, SCBills said:

 

Bright spot.. They can identify OL talent.  

 

Not so bright spot.. We can't be sure they'll play them (Teller, Bates)

 

I do give them a bit of a pass on Teller.  He looks great on Cleveland, but he's also a fit for their style of play.  He's not exactly an elite pass pro guy in a pass heavy offense. 

 

Bates, no clue, seems they were obsessed with having positional flexibility as depth.  

 

Bringing back Kromer is such a big move.  He can make mediocre OL's play to above average level, and this OL does have talent... Dawkins and Morse are very good players, and Kromer has all the potential in the world to play with on the right side of the line in Bates/Brown. 

Is Saffold taking LG spot for sure? Glad Bates was versatile, but really hoping theirs no drop off with him shifting to the right. Good think is id have to assume switching sides as a guard has to be one of the easier position changes

[ganesh]

5 hours ago, Rubes said:

Be nice if he showed film of Bates from more than one game.

 

He is probably doing this on 10s of lineman.....slow offseason time

[Rubes]

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

He is probably doing this on 10s of lineman.....slow offseason time

 

I know, I just meant that one game is a pretty small sample size. I've read elsewhere that Bates wasn't playing quite so awesome in other appearances.

[HappyDays]

4 hours ago, FilthyBeast said:

Still don't understand how you can let an all pro elite talent like that go though.

 

I know, right? Like can you imagine drafting an injury riddled backup QB 5th overall, and then the very next pick an elite QB is picked by a conference opponent? That would be a tough team to root for.

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by HappyDays

[Big Turk]

Don't see how the Bills don't start him...results matter 

[Thurman#1]

12 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Yeah I am not buying that either.....if you are outplaying a starter you should be on the field

 

 

People seem to assume that because you can now outplay someone that that has always been true. And just logically, that premise makes zero sense.

 

Maybe Bates got better recently, started playing better and they put him in. This was his third year. That is precisely the time in a UDFA's career where a bunch of guys who hadn't been quite good enough start to become enough better that they get noticed.

 

[Chandler#81]

14 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

Bates is a very athletic lineman. I thought brute strength was a weakness in his game, but he held up well in his starts. I don’t remember him being blatantly overpowered once and he went up against some good ones. Makes you wonder why it took so long for him to see the field. Backing up all the interior positions isn’t an excuse to me when he outperformed the starter at his job.

UDFA OL likely have the longest road to hoe for success. GMs hate being wrong Drafting OL -see Ford.

P.S. hey Baldy, he doesn’t remove the Fanny pack. It’s on his front sometimes. 

[davefan66]

12 hours ago, Rubes said:

Be nice if he showed film of Bates from more than one game.

 

Thought Bates played well in the plays he focused on.  Would have liked a more in depth analysis over several games.  
 

That being said, o-line play improved when he stepped on the field.  Glad he is back!

 

I do wonder if the mistake of letting Teller go forced Beanes hand in making sure he resigned Bates?  I know it’s been analyzed on the board, but feel Beane slid into his resigning.  Kid deserved more than a one year deal and a bump on pay. Feel it was inevitable he’d get paid.

[TPS]

7 hours ago, Rubes said:

 

I know, I just meant that one game is a pretty small sample size. I've read elsewhere that Bates wasn't playing quite so awesome in other appearances.

I don't if this shows for everyone, but there is a warning for the video about sensitive content.  I wonder if it's directed at Pats' fans...? hehehe

[CSBill]

11 minutes ago, TPS said:

I don't if this shows for everyone, but there is a warning for the video about sensitive content.  I wonder if it's directed at Pats' fans...? hehehe

 

Hahaha! Yeah, I think that is it.

[JerseyBills]

Oli

13 hours ago, FilthyBeast said:

It says a lot that we decided to match the Vikings offer sheet (although you can argue we should have known he'd cost more to begin with).

 

If Bates does become an above average NFL starter it helps take the stench off the Wyatt Teller situation. Still don't understand how you can let an all pro elite talent like that go though.

Beane was only in his 2nd or 3rd year when he dealt Teller. 

Just like players , coaches and the front office progress as well. 

 

 

[T master]

Beane & McD like to keep their own & seeing as Ford was a high draft pick of theirs i feel they are giving him every benefit and chance they can give him in hopes he would be the guy they thought he would be .

 

I wish they would have traded Ford & kept Wyatt Teller in hind sight even though they probably wouldn't be able to keep him after his initial contract .

[Shaw66]

14 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

People seem to assume that because you can now outplay someone that that has always been true. And just logically, that premise makes zero sense.

 

Maybe Bates got better recently, started playing better and they put him in. This was his third year. That is precisely the time in a UDFA's career where a bunch of guys who hadn't been quite good enough start to become enough better that they get noticed.

 

Thurm, this is so true.  Over and over, we hear stories about how this athlete turned a corner when this thing happened, or when someone told him that.   It may not even have been the first time the thing happened or was said; for whatever reason, it clicked, and then performance changed.

 

Best story I ever heard about that was Sandy Koufax.   Several people in the Dodgers organization had had more or less given up on him, because despite his brilliant fastball and breaking ball, he had no command.  The story is that Koufax was out on the mound in a spring training game, and he was throwing the ball everywhere except over the plate.  Pitching coach went to the mound and said something like, "Sandy, will you please, please stop throwing the ball so hard.  Just relax and just throw it to the catcher.  Don't throw fastballs hard, just throw fastballs.  Don't throw the curveball hard.  Just throw it."  Literally, from that point on, Koufax was the pitcher that we remember.   His ERA went from the high 3s and 4s to the low 2s and high 1s.  Practically overnight. 

 

Plenty of guys labor overseas and in the G league for years, and then become serious contributors in the NBA.  

 

Players improve in all kinds of ways.  

 

Maybe Bates is one of those.  

 

I have to say, I just watched Baldy's video, and Bates's technique is pretty impressive. 

[Thurman#1]

13 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Thurm, this is so true.  Over and over, we hear stories about how this athlete turned a corner when this thing happened, or when someone told him that.   It may not even have been the first time the thing happened or was said; for whatever reason, it clicked, and then performance changed.

 

Best story I ever heard about that was Sandy Koufax.   Several people in the Dodgers organization had had more or less given up on him, because despite his brilliant fastball and breaking ball, he had no command.  The story is that Koufax was out on the mound in a spring training game, and he was throwing the ball everywhere except over the plate.  Pitching coach went to the mound and said something like, "Sandy, will you please, please stop throwing the ball so hard.  Just relax and just throw it to the catcher.  Don't throw fastballs hard, just throw fastballs.  Don't throw the curveball hard.  Just throw it."  Literally, from that point on, Koufax was the pitcher that we remember.   His ERA went from the high 3s and 4s to the low 2s and high 1s.  Practically overnight. 

 

Plenty of guys labor overseas and in the G league for years, and then become serious contributors in the NBA.  

 

Players improve in all kinds of ways.  

 

Maybe Bates is one of those.  

 

I have to say, I just watched Baldy's video, and Bates's technique is pretty impressive. 

 

 

Now you're making me want to read about Koufax too. Amazing story.

 

I've just been reading a bunch about Brit triple jumper Jonathan Edwards. Here's a guy who was never really special, and then at age 29 he suddenly started kicking ass. Before he was through he set a world record that STILL has not been beaten 25 years later, which is absolutely insane. The new generation is closing in on his record, but he still holds it.

 

People develop.

 

When somebody takes the fact that a backup is now playing better than the guy who was ahead of him as proof that the coaches screwed up, it only shows that that's the way that person thinks. It's confirmation bias.

 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

On 5/24/2022 at 3:46 PM, FilthyBeast said:

It says a lot that we decided to match the Vikings offer sheet (although you can argue we should have known he'd cost more to begin with).

 

If Bates does become an above average NFL starter it helps take the stench off the Wyatt Teller situation. Still don't understand how you can let an all pro elite talent like that go though.

It was Chicago that signed Bates to offer sheet

[Dr. Who]

34 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

It was Chicago that signed Bates to offer sheet

You can't expect a fella pretending to be a Bills' fan to get teams correct.

[billsfan1959]

On 5/24/2022 at 3:54 PM, Rubes said:

Be nice if he showed film of Bates from more than one game.

 

 

The entire Oline performed well in that game. And as well as Bates and Brown did in pass blocking in that game, they were equally as bad in the KC game. Brown was worse than Bates, but they were both bad in that game.

 

I like Bates. He played pretty well the last four games of the season (better at pass blocking than run blocking) and in the playoff game against the ***Pats. I am a big fan of Kromer and think he can really help Bates elevate his game. The same with Brown, Doyle and the other young Olinemen - well, maybe not Ford . Actually, while Kromer isn't a miracle worker, he's pretty damn good. So, I will wait to see if he can find and maximize whatever talent is within Ford.

 

I am really looking forward to seeing how this Oline performs this year. It is the one area I feel they haven't adequately addressed, in terms of proportion to the value they are protecting (Allen). But, the team did the next best thing in hiring someone like Kromer to get the best out of what they do have.

[Shaw66]

3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Now you're making me want to read about Koufax too. Amazing story.

 

I've just been reading a bunch about Brit triple jumper Jonathan Edwards. Here's a guy who was never really special, and then at age 29 he suddenly started kicking ass. Before he was through he set a world record that STILL has not been beaten 25 years later, which is absolutely insane. The new generation is closing in on his record, but he still holds it.

 

People develop.

 

When somebody takes the fact that a backup is now playing better than the guy who was ahead of him as proof that the coaches screwed up, it only shows that that's the way that person thinks. It's confirmation bias.

 

And it's not only occasional stories about stars.   I heard JJ Redick talking about his NBA career.   Coming out of Duke, he didn't expect to be drafted, but he was.  He didn't expect to make a team as a rookie, but he did.  As the season was nearing it's end, he asked a veteran what he had to do to stay in the league.  The guy told him to take a few weeks off, then start working intensely to make some aspect of his game better, to learn to do something he doesn't do know.   Reddick said that every year for ten years, every summer, he added a skill or refined a skill.  Every year.

 

I wrote about the Phil Jackson book.   In it he said Kobe did the same thing - every fall, Kobe came back to the team able to do something he didn't do before. 

 

Some old-time will remember the name of the Bills' placekicker who carried portable goal posts in his car and would stop at open spaces, set up the goal posts, and practice.   

 

Ime Udoka, the Celtics coach, played five or six years in minor leagues before he made it to the NBA.  It wasn't as though all those years he was good enough for the NBA and no one noticed.   Kevin Ollie from UConn did the same thing, working year after year after year, getting a little better every year before he finally made it to the NBA.  

 

Although I've never heard anyone say it, I think there's an unwritten rule that good GMs follow - it's better to give up on young talent too late than too early.   (And it's also better to give up on old talent to early than too late - you'd rather have Jerry Hughes have a good year or two in Houston than have him Buffalo not dressing for games.)   Compare, as everyone does, Wyatt Teller and Bates.  Gave up on one too early, kept working with another for what seemed to be too long, but now he looks like a starter.  Levi Wallace started in Buffalo because the Bills didn't give up on him.  

. 

Players get better.  Especially players on the Bills, because McBeane only want players who are personally committed to getting better.  

 

Not that I have any insider info, but you have to wonder how much longer Poyer is going to be a Bill.  I gather he's not at OTAs, and apparently that's because he's not happy with his contract.   The Bills say all the right stuff, it's business, etc., but there's business and there's football, and McD certainly doesn't like business getting in the way of football.  I'm sure that McD is planning for life after Poyer, not because he's already decided to get rid of Poyer, but because things change.   Why am I talking about Poyer?  Because I think Poyer's replacement is on the roster today.   I don't know who it is, but it's some guy who can grow into that role.   Names I would suggest as possible safeties:  Hamlin and Johnson, of course, but maybe Tre White, and maybe Taron Johnson, and maybe Terrel Bernard, and maybe I don't know who else.  Someone is going to grow into Poyer's job, be given an opportunity, and show that he can do it, someone who right now, or a year ago, wasn't capable of doing that.   Belichick lived for twenty years promoting home-grown starters.  

[frogger]

I still am hoping that Buffalo keeps him on the left side and RS can go to RG